18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

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18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 20 May 2018, 12:15 pm

Following on from a thread about a lot of SH players leaving I was wondering how the various Irish Provinces shape up with respect to NIE and Project players either qualifying or already qualified.
The reason I ask is Ulster have very few for next year - new signings not withstanding.

All we have is NIE - Coetzee, Deysel
Qualified through residency - Herbst, Ludik

That could be it.
Payne will retire, Ah You has not got a contract for next year, Diack retiring, Piatau leaving.

VdeMerwe may well have his contract cancelled.
Even if he doesn't that makes only 5 - every other player is Irish born, or qualifies through the parentage rule

How are the other Provinces shaping up ?

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by profitius on Sun 20 May 2018, 2:14 pm

Munster
NIQ: Marshall, Botha, Cloete, Bleyendaal, Taute
IQ: Stander
Irish qualified through descent: Parker, Haley
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 20 May 2018, 4:26 pm

Ulster
NIE: Coetzee SA, Deysel SA, Speight AUS (S/T)
NIQ: Van der Merwe SA
RIQ: Ludik SA, Herbst SA, Ah You NZ
GPIQ: Reidy NZ, Treadwell ENG, Herring SA, Browne ENG, Addison ENG, Murphy SPA

Connacht
NIE: Godwin AUS
NIQ: Butler AUS. Horowitz AUS, Reece, FIJ, Faa’inga AUS
RIQ: McCartney NZ, Roux SA, Aki NZ, Adeolokun NIG
GPIQ: Bealham AUS, Robertson-McCoy NZ, Maksymiw ENG, Cannon ENG, Marmion ENG, Mitchell ENG, Dillane FRA

Munster
NIE: Taute SA, Botha SA
NIQ: Marshall NZ, Kleyn SA, Cloete SA
RIQ: Stander SA, Bleyendaal NZ
GPIQ: Parker ENG, Arnold ENG, Wootton ENG, Haley ENG

Leinster
NIE: Fardy AUS, Tomane AUS
NIQ: Lowe NZ, Gibson-Park NZ
RIQ: Abdaladze GEO
GPIQ: Bent NZ, Carbery NZ, L McGrath CAN

11 SA, 11 NZ, 11 ENG, 7 AUS, 1 SP/CAN/GEO/FRA/NIG

Foreign XV - NIE/NIQ - Leinster, Munster, Ulster only
15 Vacant
14 Vacant
13 Vacant
12 Taute
11 Lowe
10 Vacant
9 Gibson-Park
8/7/6 - Cloete, Deysel, Coetzee, Botha - too many?
5 Kleyn
4 Fardy
3 Vacant
2 Marshall
1 van der Merwe


Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:36 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 20 May 2018, 6:02 pm

GPIQ ???
Is that to cover Parents and Grandparents ?
As I said you can forget Payne and quite possibly Ah You and VdeMerwe

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 20 May 2018, 8:25 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:GPIQ ???
Is that to cover Parents and Grandparents ?
As I said you can forget Payne and quite possibly Ah You and VdeMerwe

Yep - Grandparents and Parents.

The IQ Rugby machine seems to be working overtime.
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 22 May 2018, 9:35 am

One point this business of 1 NIQ per position has been dropped.
Decision are made on a player by player basis
Fro example you have 3.14.15 vacant
Ulster have 2 slots free.
They wont be in any of those positions - they will be any 2 from 1, 10, Lock as they are what Ulster need
The IRFU preference is they get a LH and a Lock but that only works if someone down south comes here

The view is we are overflowing at LH - Healy, McGrath, Dooley, Cronin, Buckley, Kilcoyne
Same for Lock - Henderson, Ryan, Toner, Bierne

We can afford Ulster to get NIQs in those positions


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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 22 May 2018, 2:47 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:One point this business of 1 NIQ per position has been dropped.
Decision are made on a player by player basis
Fro example you have 3.14.15 vacant
Ulster have 2 slots free.
They wont be in any of those positions - they will be any 2 from 1, 10, Lock as they are what Ulster need
The IRFU preference is they get a LH and a Lock but that only works if someone down south comes here

The view is we are overflowing at LH - Healy, McGrath, Dooley, Cronin, Buckley, Kilcoyne
Same for Lock - Henderson, Ryan, Toner, Bierne

We can afford Ulster to get NIQs in those positions


On reflection, in line with the guidelines that Connacht are not included, so the vacant slots are - notionally - 1 x 12/13, 1 winger, 1 xFB, 1x 10 and 1 x TH.
Given the push is for IQ ideally, or young NIQ, rather than NIE, then yep that makes sense. Kleyn becomes IQ and Fardy finishes at end 18/19 season.
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Mon 28 May 2018, 5:54 pm

At the end of the 18/19 Ulster may well have no NIE or NIQ players on the books, that are there now.

VdeMerwe and Deysel will not get new contracts - Cunningham has already said as much.
Unless Coetzee has a season virtually injury free neither will he

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by Kingshu on Mon 28 May 2018, 8:42 pm

I Would like any NIE players signed to just be one year deals and use this year to blood the acamady, then we can pick up players post WC in positions where the acamady did not stand up. I think only LH and 10 are positions where its known we have noone to step up and should get NIEs in longer.

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 28 May 2018, 9:13 pm

Connacht have signed a 21 year old Fijian winger playing Mitre 10 with Waikato. Bit of a revolving door out west for SH players. Wonder how long he’ll last?
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 29 May 2018, 12:44 pm

Kingshu wrote:I Would like any NIE players signed to just be one year deals and use this year to blood the acamady, then we can pick up players post WC in positions where the acamady did not stand up. I think only LH and 10 are positions where its known we have noone to step up and should get NIEs in longer.

Problem with that which decent NIE is going to sign for one year ?

As to 10 - we have no one of experience but we have 3 youngsters who are highly thought of so we do have players to step up in the future.
Given the big gap there is behind Sexton, and with Jackson away it remains a big gap it is going to be a hard sell to convince IRFU to agree to a NIQ 10.
In fact I cant see it happening

Sexton cant go on for ever so who takes over

Bryne - decent but inexperience
Carbery - talented but third choice at his province and playing more at 15 anyway
Keatley - not quite good enough
JJ - talent but not a game manager
Bleydaal - never fit and is he good enough anyway

Ireland post Sexton have a potentially big problem and the IRFU will not want to stop any emerging talent game time.
I can see Ulster being told give it a year where the three young bucks fight it and lets see who emerges on top

The best form Irish 10 after Sexton (ignoring Jackson) is McGinty.
He has had a superb season at Sale

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 29 May 2018, 1:34 pm

AJ McGinty is NIE

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by profitius on Tue 29 May 2018, 2:10 pm

We've actually been very unlucky with 10s.

Jackson was just coming good but now he's gone. Another massive loss that's gone under the radar is Johnny Holland. He was head and shoulders above Keatley and Bleyendaal and would be after many caps by now.

Also not forgetting Ian McKinlay. He was higher rated than Sexton when he was coming through. Having no eyesight in one eye is a massive handicap but he still manages to play professional rugby.


There are 10s coming through though. We just need one or two to step up and stay healthy.
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 29 May 2018, 2:12 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:AJ McGinty is NIE

Yer you are right - he is a Yank.
In my defence he is Irish born - one more we let slip through the net - ~Jackson, McGinty, McKinlay - being to look like carelessness

As I said the whole after Sexton is a big one and for that reason alone no NIQ or NIE will be allowed in
Either someone comes north or I am now convinced we (Ulster) will be playing with kids

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 30 May 2018, 2:30 pm

If Carbery is going to Munster then hopefully Keatley will head north and he might just be a better pick anyway.

Keatley is experienced - something that the young Ulster 10s can learn from. He has been round the other three provinces and the Irish team so will at least have been exposed to winning set-ups and different methods, so while he may not have been stellar at any team he at least is adaptable enough to do a job. He has also been at teams battling through low points so that experience might be useful too.

Keatley doesn't need to be the best 10 in the world. The Ulster team are in transition and arguably have to grow up together before they become competitive. Having Beauden Barratt would be a waste in a side not at his level. He is currently more selectable than McPhillips et al. but not so far ahead that they would give up on fighting for the starting shirt. Having that competitive gap close helps everyone's motivation.

Keatley is used to time out of the team. Once McPhillips/Curtis/Lowry overtake him, he knows how to train and be adaptable enough to slot back in. He also can play fullback, which is a position Ulster are exposed in. That helps with cover and adds a bit of competitiveness there. At 31 he might be happy to gradually become more of a squad filler as his proteges forge ahead.

One of his issues is goal kicking, but at Ulster with Cooney in that role, he should be freed up to concentrate on the better parts of his game (especially he has already played with Cooney).


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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by rodders on Wed 30 May 2018, 3:45 pm

Agree with all of that Aukster. Keatley would be the perfect fit.

I actually wouldn't mind Bleyendaal either if he could stay fit.
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 31 May 2018, 9:21 am

For me Keatley playing 15 makes him the preferred choice.

We need a 15 anyway and him there with a youngster at 10 is a good solution.
Can have a quiet word during stoppages to help whoever is at 10 and can move there if form or injury require it.
That would allow both a centre and a wing to sit on the bench.

We are very exposed at 15 - no Ludik leaves us with Nelson and whoever is retained out of Owens and Busby

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by profitius on Thu 31 May 2018, 8:00 pm

Keatley's best position is 12 or 15 IMO. Hes a good squad player in that he never gets injured and is very solid at pro14 level. He isn't a champions cup winning 10 but a good squad player.
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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 10:00 am

Ulster
NIE: Coetzee SA, Deysel SA
NIQ: Van der Merwe SA
RIQ: Ludik SA, Herbst SA, Ah You NZ

Connacht
NIE: Godwin AUS
NIQ: Butler AUS. Horowitz AUS, Reece, FIJ
RIQ: McCartney NZ, Roux SA, Aki NZ, Adeolokun NIG

Munster
NIE: Taute SA, Botha SA
NIQ: Marshall NZ, Kleyn SA, Cloete SA
RIQ: Stander SA, Bleyendaal NZ

Leinster
NIE: Fardy AUS
NIQ: Lowe NZ, Gibson-Park NZ
RIQ: Abdaladze GEO

Ulster are as is - any changes to the other provinces in the above ?

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 10:07 am

You can add Tomane to the Leinster NIEs Geoff.

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by St John The Enforcer on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 10:27 am

Not sure about the value of classifying Abdaladze or Adeolokun as residency qualified. While it is technically correct, they arrived in Ireland at 5 and 11 years old respectively, and learned ALL their Rugby here.

To me residency qualified is someone who learned and developed in another country and ended up here. From that perspective Michael Bent despite having an Irish granny learned ALL his rugby in New Zealand. Technically he is obviously NOT residency qualified, but from the perspective of developing your own players.....

And yeah. Joe Tomane. Smile

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by St John The Enforcer on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 10:41 am

Ulster meant to be signing Henry Speight too? I'm guessing they will get someone else if not him.

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 11:47 am

Speight seems to have gone quiet and to be honest not quite what we need.
We really could do with someone capable of playing 15 and he isn't it.
Wouldn't say no though

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 11:48 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:Not sure about the value of classifying Abdaladze or Adeolokun as residency qualified. While it is technically correct, they arrived in Ireland at 5 and 11 years old respectively, and learned ALL their Rugby here.


Didn't know that - thanks

What we are going to see is a big down turn on Residency qualified players with the 5 year rule
Cunningham basically said getting established players over was dead in the water and that going forward it will be offers made to promising 18 to 21 year olds

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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by St John The Enforcer on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 2:18 pm

Yes. 2 kinds of signings now. Promising 21 year olds like Reece in Connacht and top line lads like fardy or coetzee.

Nothing in between.

Even 21 year olds are such a long project. Taking up an NIQ spot for 5 years.

I think it's a good thing though. I was never comfortable with the targeting of "project" players by unions.


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Re: 18-19 Irish Province 'foreigners'

Post by geoff999rugby on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 4:36 pm

What is interesting is there are only 7 NIE players across all 4 provinces.

This is definitely Nucifora doing, with Schmidt full support.

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