England U20s - JWC

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures/Results:

England 39 - Argentina 18
Wednesday 30 May


England 43- Italy 5
Sunday 3 June


England 35 Scotland 10
Thursday 7 June


Semi-final - England v South Africa
Narbonne
12 June 18:00


Finals day
Beziers, 17 June



Squad:

Forwards

Josh Basham (London Irish)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)
Beck Cutting (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors)
Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester Rugby)
Ciaran Knight (Gloucester Rugby)
Joel Kpoku (Saracens)
Sam Lewis (Leicester Tigers)
Gabriel Oghre (Wasps)
Ehren Painter (Northampton Saints)
James Scott (Worcester Warriors)
Alex Seville (Gloucester Rugby)
Toby Trinder (Northampton Saints)
Henry Walker (Gloucester Rugby)
Tom Willis (Wasps)

Backs

Rory Brand (London Irish)
Will Butler (Worcester Warriors)
Ali Crossdale (Saracens)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints)
James Grayson (Northampton Saints)
Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers)
Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins)
Ben Loader (London Irish)
Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Parton (London Irish)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Ben White (Leicester Tigers)



Unavailable through injury:
Dino Lamb (Harlequins)
Sam Moore (Sale Sharks)
Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs)

Unavailable as named in senior squad:
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks)

lostinwales wrote:It isn't necessarily a good thing but England could get to the final without fixing any of these problems.

I know SA beat Eng in a recent warm up match, but otherwise it looks like there is NZ as ever and that is pretty much it.

France look impressive when ive seen them...

England hammered France in the 6Ns match - though having lost to Scotland it was not by any where near enough to deprive them of the title.

We need to beat Scotland first, then worry about the knockout games. However much of the good stuff I have seen so far has been individual inspiration. Smith and Curry have looked a class apart from the rest of the squad - which really you would have expected. Outside of that not sure there are many players in this group who will make an impact at senor level.

LondonTiger wrote:England hammered France in the 6Ns match - though having lost to Scotland it was not by any where near enough to deprive them of the title.

We need to beat Scotland first, then worry about the knockout games. However much of the good stuff I have seen so far has been individual inspiration. Smith and Curry have looked a class apart from the rest of the squad - which really you would have expected. Outside of that not sure there are many players in this group who will make an impact at senor level.

Those two and to a lesser extent Willis have looked good. I think it's always touch and go with tight five forwards at this level. There's always those that look good now but are benefitting from being physically more developed than their peers. If they don't have the technique to match they fall away quickly at senior level, you also get some technical players who are overlooked at this level as they don't make as much impact as the naturally big or rapid but who offer more at senior level.

There are a number of players who could go either way. Both scrum halfs have looked like they could step up and develop well as have some of the back three players, though the much hyped unit from Quins has been very disappointing, a phenomenal athlete but little skills and a tendency to run into people up right. He's definitely one who's used to physically dominating at age grade and who will have to adapt to senior rugby.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:England hammered France in the 6Ns match - though having lost to Scotland it was not by any where near enough to deprive them of the title.

We need to beat Scotland first, then worry about the knockout games. However much of the good stuff I have seen so far has been individual inspiration. Smith and Curry have looked a class apart from the rest of the squad - which really you would have expected. Outside of that not sure there are many players in this group who will make an impact at senor level.

Those two and to a lesser extent Willis have looked good. I think it's always touch and go with tight five forwards at this level. There's always those that look good now but are benefitting from being physically more developed than their peers. If they don't have the technique to match they fall away quickly at senior level, you also get some technical players who are overlooked at this level as they don't make as much impact as the naturally big or rapid but who offer more at senior level.

There are a number of players who could go either way. Both scrum halfs have looked like they could step up and develop well as have some of the back three players, though the much hyped unit from Quins has been very disappointing, a phenomenal athlete but little skills and a tendency to run into people up right. He's definitely one who's used to physically dominating at age grade and who will have to adapt to senior rugby.

Ibitoye? The irony of his try yesterday is that he did indeed just smash through two players to score in the corner. Otherwise he looked like he was trying too hard and had butter on his fingers the rest of the time. I just hope him running out of the line in defense is a planned thing..

There was a moment late on with the ball bobbling around on the floor. He got to it first then immediately coughed the ball up to a waiting Italian.

He should be a handful - that combination of low center of gravity, power and speed will cause problems.

I thought Ben Loader had a good game yesterday

The young scrum half looked decent....

GeordieFalcon wrote:The young scrum half looked decent....

Brand. Some wayward passing and his kicking was dodgy. Electric off the base though a real handful for the defence and he's got playing of muscle on him for a scrum half, coupled with his pace he's not easy to bring down after he snipes through a gap.

Could be a very good player if he develops his skills, reminded me a little of Danny Care for some reason.

Yeah Sam, plenty to work with I thought.

I agree with what people are saying about Ibitoye aswell. I think the skills coaches need to really get to grip with him and work on that aspect of his game.

At present at senior level, teams will handle his game all day long. He needs to develop some handling and subtleness...

The scrum half had great acceleration but not much speed I thought, first time I've seen him mind.

The Irish back 3 pair looked very good, I thought the FB had a classy look about him and plenty of time of the ball.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The scrum half had great acceleration but not much speed I thought, first time I've seen him mind.

The Irish back 3 pair looked very good, I thought the FB had a classy look about him and plenty of time of the ball.

I'd agree with that, but in his position he can get away with a lack of long distance speed.
One of the worlds great Jason Robinson was in the same boat. Over long distance there were quicker players but it was the first 10 - 20 meters he destroyed teams.

Weirdly Ibitoye has looked very good for Quins so far and scored some brilliant tries at senior level, I hope it's just a case of trying too hard atm.

As mentioned his power, pace and low centre of gravity make him slippery af.

On my phone so unable to cut and paste team for today but available here. http://www.englandrugby.com/news/england-u20s-side-play-scotland/

There you go

15. James Grayson (Northampton Saints)
14. Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins)
13. Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers)
12. Will Butler (Worcester Warriors)
11. Ben Loader (London Irish)
10. Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers)
9. Ben White – captain (Leicester Tigers)
1. Ciaran Knight (Gloucester Rugby)
2. Beck Cutting (Worcester Warriors)
3. Ehren Painter (Northampton Saints)
4. Joel Kpoku (Saracens)
5. James Scott (Worcester Warriors)
6. Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors)
7. Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester Rugby)
8. Tom Willis (Wasps)

Replacements:
16. Gabriel Oghre (Wasps)
17. Alex Seville (Gloucester Rugby)
18. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
19. Josh Basham (London Irish)
20. Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)
21. Rory Brand (London Irish)
22. Matt Williams (London Irish)
23. Tom Parton (London Irish)

Good to see a call up for Matt Williams after this injury in the 6n. Albeit at the expense of Crossdale who has no luck at all with injuries. Williams one of 5 LI players in there from the same Wellington College school team

Fair bit of rotation there, but will be interesting to see how Hardwick and Olowofela go at 10 and 13 respectively.

Well Ibitoye found his A game against the cots

Good match?

yappysnap wrote:Good match?

Yeah it was OK actually, even though it was one way traffic. The Scot forwards were good, even had a slight edge over England for the first half, but were outclassed in the backs. Score was as close as it was because Hardwick could not land a kick on goal (ok 1 con and 1 pen) but when England got the ball out to the backs they looked like scoring almost every time. Scottish tackling left a lot to be desired. One of Ibitoye's tries involved going through 3 scots, maori sidestep style.

Personally I thought the Scots were determined but really rather poor, while far too often we were leaden in footwork and passing. The Scottish defence at times was very narrow with all our tries in the corners. Even when they had the men, they bounced off tackles.

We butchered too many chances through poor skills or decision making. Perhaps I am being over harsh, but the next two games will give us more of an insight as with group games you always wonder about the quality of the opposition.

LondonTiger wrote:Personally I thought the Scots were determined but really rather poor, while far too often we were leaden in footwork and passing. The Scottish defence at times was very narrow with all our tries in the corners. Even when they had the men, they bounced off tackles.

We butchered too many chances through poor skills or decision making. Perhaps I am being over harsh, but the next two games will give us more of an insight as with group games you always wonder about the quality of the opposition.

Well if we had not scored 6 tries there are a couple of misses that would have been 'alarming' - the pass from the 7 to Loader was a case in point. All the work had been done already and it was a walk in, but either the pass was rushed or Loader had drifted too far out...

England have a lot of room for improvement - but they also didn't have some of their best players on the pitch. Hardwick is a fair way behind Smith, and Curry was only on the bench; those two alone make a big difference to the quality of the side.

I imagine the coaches will be having some stern words about when and how to pass. Several times forwards took contact with an overlap, and that pass to Loader's ankles killed what would have been an easy try.

Still, much better that England are going into the semis as top seeds with room to improve than blazing on all cylinders. I've not managed to see much of NZ yet, but they don't appear to have a game changing player on the scale of Aumua, who dominated last year's tournament.

Wit the smaller squads they have for JWC you can never have a second string playing, but yesterday was very much England's weakest starting 15 - no surprise with the need to rotate players plus Scotland being the weakest team in the group.

As you say bringing in Curry and Smith will make a difference, as will having a proper FB. Will be interesting to see who Bates selects for the SA game

Team to face SA in the semi:

England U20s

15. Tom Parton (London Irish)
14. Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins)
13. Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints)
12. Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers)
11. Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
9. Ben White (Leicester Tigers)
1. Alex Seville (Gloucester Rugby)
2. Henry Walker (Gloucester Rugby)
3. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
4. Joel Kpoku (Saracens)
5. James Scott (Worcester Warriors)
6. Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors)
7. Ben Curry - captain (Sale Sharks)
8. Josh Basham (London Irish)

Replacements

16. Gabriel Oghre (Wasps)
17. Ciaran Knight (Gloucester Rugby)
18. Ehren Painter (Northampton Saints)
19. Tom Willis (Wasps Rugby)
20. Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester Rugby)
21. Rory Brand (London Irish)
22. James Grayson (Northampton Saints)
23. Will Butler (Worcester Warriors)



Slightly surprised to see Painter and Willis on the bench

It should also be noted that this game will be live on ITV4

Painter doesn't offer much around the Park at this level IMO, it's much more open game on the whole, which doesn't really suit his size.

Out of the team that got hammered the differences are
2. Walker for Oghre
7. Curry for Hinkley
8. Basham for Willis
10. Smith for Grayson
11. Olowofela for Loader
12. Hardwick for Dingwall
13. Dingwall for Lawrence
14. Ibitoye for Seabrook

17. Knight for Trinder
19. Willis for Lewis
20. Hinkley for Basham
22. Grayson for Morley
23. Butler for James

Welly wrote:

Out of the team that got hammered the differences are

Was that the warm up game? Never saw the score - we lost badly I guess.

England 12-26 SA

https://warriors.co.uk/2018/05/11/report-england-under-20s-12-26-junior-springboks/

Poorfour wrote:England have a lot of room for improvement - but they also didn't have some of their best players on the pitch. Hardwick is a fair way behind Smith, and Curry was only on the bench; those two alone make a big difference to the quality of the side.

At under 20s level the players who are "freaks" so to speak, the ones that have developed beyond the expectation of their age like Curry and Smith will always make a difference at this level. They are used to playing at a higher level of physicality and at a higher tempo.

As an aside there's a lot of hope in regards to Hardwick going forward. He's pencilled in as Ford's understudy for the next few years potentially slitting into 12 as the eventual successor to Toomua. Lots of its and buts first but has looked good so far with his limited Tigers game time. Smith is another level or two above the entire England back division and probably above most others in this tournament.

Geez this Welsh ref doesn't want a contest at the breakdown does he.

England go 3 tries up against SA then start kicking the ball too much. Deja vu?

Just hold on for the win, but really lucky imo.

Agggghhhhhh I missed it!

Just missed the game...but saw the after game talk. Seems we held on by the skin of our teeth

Just missed the game...but saw the after game talk. Seems we held on by the skin of our teeth

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just missed the game...but saw the after game talk. Seems we held on by the skin of our teeth

We did.

Played well for 25 minutes then seemed to resort to aimless hoofing of the ball. I was disappointed with both White and Smith for being the instigators of that.

Why do we do that?? ALl the kicking..
My biggest gripe with the Falcons at prem level is exactly that. Get ahead then pointless kicking.

Its as if to say ok we have a lead now lets just kick the ball and let them try to get through our brick wall defence. I hate it!
All round the ground you can hear the "DONT FECKIN KICK IT!!!"

We did it against SA in the seniors aswell.

Meanwhile NZ v france is a cracker. That France full back LaPorte looks an absolute peach of a player coming through.

How are France not winning this game by a mile! They must have about 80% possession in the first half.

I hope France win, would be good to mix things up.

France are rampant. Its like watching the old France senior side that have knocked the AB's out of previous world cups.

The AB's are shell shocked.

But for all that the French aren't scoring the points! Will that be crucial later on??

Baby blacks about to implode... at least their scrum is gone... long it may continue. 13-0 so far ...

NZ scrum getting absolutely man shamed. Utterly destroyed!

NZ scrum getting absolutely man shamed. Utterly destroyed!

Embarrassing for NZ. Should be a yellow here soon. Wonder if they’ll try any take it to uncontested to save face?

Reminds me of when England marched Ireland back for 80 mins a few years ago.

Try for NZ. They don't deserve that at all...but hey that's rugby.

Come on France

More than a few players are really toasted

NZ really underpowered against this combative and committed French side. France thoroughly deserve the win here.

Well done France Looking forward to the final!

Phew. Forwards really won that game. Good old 10 men rugby

France looked very strong.

France have a few gems coming through if they can take this on to senior level!

That tight head Demba Bemba what a beast...and I liked the look of that number 7..the big tall lad.
The Number 8 is a monster at 17!

LaPorte the FB looks classy as did a few of the backs

Is Ntamack any relation of the former france great Emile?

Yes that’s his son.
In fact there is other former famous player sons or relative in this team like Breman, Gimbert, Boniface and Carbonel)