England Summer Tour - Part 2

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue May 29, 2018 9:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:47 pm

Ah there we go, right on cue Smile.

No I'm not from the valleys - what a dumb, unnecessary and presumptuous post. I'm willing to bet I have more English friends than you, and also more Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Aussie, Kiwi and Canadian friends than you. It helps to get out more which is what you need. Word of advice, don't continue speak to people that way over a forum as there is a chance you'll bump into them one day and I doubt you'd have such big balls in person. I'll be seeing you soon, on your next account thumbsup.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You are going out of your way to crow about losing to England.  Remember. When you lost. Yikes. How. Bad. Is. Gatland.

Just what exactly are you gloating about? I'm confused. You were coming out with the same trash right after the 6N, the one in which you finished FIFTH. England edged a game against Wales in part due to some bad ref and TMO decisions, that doesn't exactly make Gatland a bad coach. This is the coach who has produced the goods at every single team he's coached. Eddie Jones has not which is why at times he took on minor consultant roles - he knew he was out of his depth. Gatland has never been in such a position. This anti-Gatland thing from our friends across the bridge is born out of bitter resentment, right? You should save some of your ire for Eddie I think!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:57 pm

Hey you brought up england beating wales. Woop woop go warren!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hey you brought up england beating wales. Woop woop go warren!

Oh dear you're getting desperate now. Can you not address a single thing I've said, and address it like a grown-up?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:06 pm

Lol.

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Post by The Oracle on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:08 pm

Cool. Mikey spoiling another thread. Crying or Very sad
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:09 pm

It had fallen before that oracle. It'll be back.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:18 pm

The Oracle wrote:Cool. Mikey spoiling another thread. Crying or Very sad

It doesn't take you long to climb back up on that horse eh, are you also this pathetic in person? This forum really isn't for you son, so I would suggest going away again until you can man up.

That goes for you too 7.5 Smile - although I know deep down you're an okay guy, with misguided but honest intentions. So how about just addressing a post when someone asks you a question?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:24 pm

Ok. Not gloating you Brough wales loss to England into this. Just saying gatland has done really well against jones. Repatedly. Well done to him. Toodle pip mike.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:34 pm

Actually I didn't bring that up; it was brought up as a pathetic response to my good, factual post. I was never able to understand why some fans got so mad at Gatland yet laugh off Jones being repeatedly disrespectful to players and opposition. Those comments about Wales and Ireland around the final weekend of the 6N were rather stupid but he got off 'Scot-free' again... At least Lancaster was honest, passionate and respectful at all times.

Someone else actually brought up EJ too, I just added on to that. On EJ; there isn't anyone available who is better to take England to the world cup and I believe things will improve next season if not sooner.

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Post by Hood83 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except our backs did really well. Strange article all in all as it's acknowledges that the pack was picked for the open game and not for the set piece. It ignores isiekwe was having his first real start but does nod the head to some strange referring but chosen to quote stats without context. As it is Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby at the moment.

I think it inadvertently highlights the problem we have with Jones. He talked of solidifying our traditional strengths - set piece, defence, powerful runners - but with the usual Jones training intensity improving fitness and pace. What's actually happened is we seem caught between two stools.

Our set piece has probably gone backwards, partly, maybe, a result of him not always picking the pack that offers those traditional strengths, partly, who knows. Our defence also seems to be unravelling a bit, but possibly more easy to fix. At the same time despite all the training intensity, we still look fatter and slower than almost every other top team - takes an absolute age for us to get to the breakdown and we rarely have a player offering support. We seem to be flogging players with no gains. By far the biggest disappointment for me is the lack of progress at the breakdown. It's been a key area for ever but we still can't compete there. I'm not sure that's Eddie's fault though.

I'm less and less convinced we can adapt to play a fast paced game of rugby unless at least some of the clubs start adopting this approach. As they almost certainly won't, maybe the old arm-wrestle rugby is our most realistic chance of success, but then can Eddie manage that?

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:43 pm

I don't come on this forum much, but I've realised this is much the same as the HYS section on the BBC Forum. Some people discuss rugby, non-English fans have a go at England on an English Rugby thread. Unfortunately English fans bite, and it all turns into a tit-for-tat mess.

I suggest that you guys go and have a beer together and sort out your differences. It'll make it nicer for us non-Nationalistic fans of rugby.

Can we talk about the state of the English game now without predjudice and see if we've got any smart ideas on how to fix our problems??

My team would be:

1. Marler (for scrummaging technique)
2. George
3. Williams (Sinckler better off the bench)
4. Launchbury (IF fit - if not Hill. If he's good enough to be on tour, blinking well use him!!)
5. Itoje
6. Shields (Robshaw desperately slow and needs a rest)
7. Curry (I thought he had a fairly good game)
8. Billy
9. Robson (Youngs is predictable)
10 Cipriani (Ford has had too many chances and he comes up short time after time)
11 May (Meep meep!)
12 Farrell (Well he isn't going to be dropped is he?!)
13 Slade (deserves another go - another who didn't do much wrong)
14 Earle (I'd like to see him tried out)
15 Daly (aside from a couple of mistakes I think he deserves another chance and we need his big boot)

16 LCD (Excellent if the game's broken up a bit)
17 Genge for his impact
18 Sinckler (as above)
19 Isiekwe
20 Simmonds (cover the back row)
21 Youngs
22 Lozowski (Excellent cover for 10, 12 & 13)
23 Solomona (for impact)

Brown is all wrong for a winger. He took his try well but if he is going to be in the team, he needs to be starting at 15 or not at all. I just don't think he's been anywhere near his best for a season or two.

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Post by RDW on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:02 pm

It's a Sunday evening and we've all had our excitement after a busy weekend of rugby - can we put this bickering to bed please?

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Post by yappysnap on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:41 am

Why warn everyone on this thread?

Just speak to the two Welsh guys with axes to grind and tell them to chill or leave the thread

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:21 am

You know I cant help feeling England really missed Hartleys capaincy and the impact of finishers like George coming off the bench.

Thoughts ...Beshocked? Whistle

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:31 am

Oh dear I see the usual suspects spoil a thread.

As to the game. Once again a genuine lack of power, pace, aggression and dynamism in the pack. Huge fan of Robshaw but I genuinely think his days are numbered now.

Curry needs to be persevered with.

Itoje is a worry. For England he is unrecognisable as the player we expect. So many stupid errors on Saturday.


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Post by yappysnap on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:39 am

Is it the players or coaching though? If itoje is out standing for club but not could try, likewise George and others, then it's probably not the players.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 am

What goes through Itoje's brain sometimes is baffling, he's a penalty magnet and the error for the try was just plain stupid. He just seems to be trying way too hard, he doesn't seem to playing his natural game at all.

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Post by screamingaddabs on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:49 am

England's issue seemed to be (as someone who had to listen on the radio rather than watch) a lack of consistent composure and a inability to stop giving away stupid penalties.

First 20 minutes showed that when England get it right ball in hand they are very good, but then they went ot sleep and the silly penalties are SO annoying.

Perhaps it was the altitude that meant they were felling so much more knackered (and why the subs had such an impact)?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:51 am

I'd take the pens with a pinch of salt to a degree. George got pinged for not rolling away while not affecting play while for the first 3 points Itoje was tripped while.going for a clean out and nothing.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:56 am

I think the coaching is a major problem at the moment. I think new coaches are required. They look devoid of answers.

However it must be said any team in the world will struggle when Faf and Willie are in that kind of form. Even worse when you give them so much time and space to play in!

My biggest concern though is the lack of physicality and aggression. For so much of that game our pack to the man looked weaker and slower that the opposition, and yet in reality I would say that isn't the case. That's a coaching thing!

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd take the pens with a pinch of salt to a degree. George got pinged for not rolling away while not affecting play while for the first 3 points Itoje was tripped while.going for a clean out and nothing.

Actually you are right to a degree...I do think the ref pinged us a few times and yet he let the Saffers off for exactly the same offences.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:57 am

Too much over the top this weekend. We should have won away at altitude. We didn't to a large degree to 2 individual mistakes that to be frank won't be made again.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:57 am

But these infringements are happening every game, with Itoje usually one of the main culprits. I'm sure the Penalty count was something like 17-3 against us, that just can't be ignored.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:05 am

It can to an extent. Some were outside of our control. Even given that it's 2 big mistakes which cost us.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:29 am

From ESPN:

SA 5 - England 12
England 11 - Ireland 12
France 11 - England 15
Scotland 7 - England 13


If those were the scores, rather than the penalty counts we may be feeling a small amount happier about things?

Sure there will sometimes be differences in interpretations (and sorry but Jamie George deserved to be penalised for not rolling away) and there may at times be an unwitting bias in favour of the home team - but if you keep ending up on the wrong side of the penalty count you need to look at yourselves first. We gave away far too many dumb penalties - and this year Itoje has given away more penalties than any other play in International rugby.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:31 am

It's every game that we're getting pinged off the park....that can't be something that can be swept under the carpet imo. A lot of these incidents are basic mistakes that we shouldn't be making at this level.

Last 6 games penalty count:

v SA..........12-5  (Itoje 3, Mako 3, George 2, Sink 2, Robshaw 2)
v Ireland....11-12 (Itoje 2, Sinkler 3)
v France.....15-11 (Robshaw 3, Simmonds 3, Mako 2, Itoje 1)
v Scotland..13-7 (Lawes 3, Launchbury 2)
v Wales......10-2 (Brown 3, Cole 2, Itoje 1)
v Italy........9-12 (Itoje 3)  

Total..........70-49 (Itoje 10)

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:32 am

PS not first time SA have fought back at Jo'burg:

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/report?gameId=281083&league=281079

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:33 am

Haha....I've just spent 15mins doing this on the slowest PC in the world LT!!!

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:34 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha....I've just spent 15mins doing this on the slowest PC in the world LT!!!

Thankfully we came up with the same numbers

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:41 am

We let ourselves down, the lads are chasing too hard for a win and need to calm down and do the basics right and stop giving away silly penalties. easier said from done btw when you are not use to losing.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:46 am

I'd be happy for George to be penalised as he was if that was consistent LT.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:50 am

Just read the huge possession and territory stats in S.A. favour and they still only won by three points. The altitude clearly impacted the forwards second half too.

England do seem to get regularly pinged for technical offences compared to other sides which rob momentum and possession, but this squad has the players to win the two next games. Nice to see refs starting to pick out players going off their feet and sealing off the ball - they should be doing that at every other ruck.

No idea what the tactics are but if they just made sure Le Roux got less positive ball, that would be a start.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:53 am

When we are tired and under pressure we:

1) Try and play for territory and thus kick a lot
2) Give away too many penalties - which immediately concedes territory along with possession
3) Start to make silly mistakes

The best teams are able to think clearly when under pressure - we are not doing that right now.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:12 am

I think our kick tactics are very poor as well.

Its something that the falcons do as well and its frustrating as hell. Its just giving the ball straight back to the opposition forcing more pressure on your team.

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Post by munkian on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except our backs did really well. Strange article all in all as it's acknowledges that the pack was picked for the open game and not for the set piece. It ignores isiekwe was having his first real start but does nod the head to some strange referring but chosen to quote stats without context. As it is Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby at the moment.

Your backs were speed bumps in defence.

I really rate Farrell but Parkes is steadily catching him up.
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Post by TightHEAD on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:59 am

Schalk Brits added to the SA squad.

for his insider knowledge of the English game!
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:33 pm

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=292953&league=289234

Stats glorious stats.

Robshaw only 7 tackles compared to Curry's 20!

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:45 pm

Singleton called up as cover for LCD

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:46 pm

Robshaw must have a problem or be exhausted. Even though he isn't the rampaging backrow forward type...his defence is normally spot on and his numbers incredibly high.

If not, and he's not just reaching those heights and workrate then he needs to be replaced immediately as that was his strength, and if that's no longer a strength then he's a waste of a selection.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:08 pm

I don't think the fast games suit Robshaw as he's quite slow at getting around park. Every game I see of him lately just adds to point that we need to move on.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:20 pm

Im starting to agree Sgt.

Players like Curry and Simmonds (I appreciate your jury is still out on him) have the work rate and are faster more explosive

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:25 pm

I think Robshaw has gone, maybe a horses for courses kind of guy, but clearly the faster style of play does not suit him.
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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:40 pm

I'd like to know more about what went wrong with Nick Isiekwe.

Substituting him so early restricted our other options, not least because he was one of only two specialist locks in the squad. We might also have hoped that, as one of the young guys, he'd have the energy to last all game.

Tim Cocker on the Eggchasers podcast said Jones was right to get him off the pitch early. He says he saw Isiekwe miss two tackles, and fail to line up properly in the defensive line in a short period of play before Shields came off.

I don't know if Cocker is right but, if he is, then that's poor from the Saracens man, who has otherwise had a good season for his club. Isiekwe is apparently one of the most powerful players in the squad, so it was a big loss of physicality.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:46 pm

Im sure I heard the commentators say Isiekwe had gone off with a head knock.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:56 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sure I heard the commentators say Isiekwe had gone off with a head knock.

Jones said it was tactical: "The game was very open and very fast, and we needed to increase the speed of the pack and we needed to get more mobility in our defence."

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:57 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sure I heard the commentators say Isiekwe had gone off with a head knock.

Jones confirmed in interview that it was a tactical decision, designed to increase the pace of the pack.

Interestingly the official stats showed Isiekwe made 8 tackles and missed 1 - same as Itoje in much less time.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:59 pm

How odd...the South African commentators definitely said he had a head knock. Ah well.

If that's the case then I genuinely think it was a shocking decision by Eddie Jones. The guy is not winning my confidence at the moment.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm

I think the Sarries forwards who got pinged a lot (Mako, George and Itoje) were doing what they could to slow the South Africans down. There were a couple of shots on Faf which were aiming to knock him off his rhythm that got penalised. Lawes was a miss in this regard, he's very good at hitting halfbacks around the fringes. Itoje's attempt for Faf's try was poorly timed and in the end he had to jump out the way to stop himself giving a penalty and getting a yellow card. I probably wouldn't change any of the 3 mentioned above, they've all played better for England and probably won't play that badly again.

It's not a glowing reference for Isiekwe to be hauled off after 30 minutes, and you'd assume if Launchbury is fit he may not feature again this tour. You'd expect at 20 he may be able to come back from this though, unlike Burrell and Harrison who suffered similar fates 2 years ago.

After a dreadful game against the Barbarians, Robshaw was largely anonymous first time out, and maybe starting with Shields or Wilson would be preferable. You'd assume Shields is next cab off the rank now for Eddie.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:23 pm

England are losing the penalty count because they are losing the contact battle, which they're losing to more dominant opposition. It's a deliberate response to being outplayed, not because they're a bit dim. You can't drop the penalty count without first improving the quality of competition you offer. Losing 5 in a row is not a blip, or tiredness, or the ref - it's because the quality of our game (and hence players) has tailed off. The fact that we were 2-time 6N winners and world-ranked 2nd makes this pretty baffling. Lose 2 more and IMO we can kiss goodbye the RWC2019. It may be more sensible to develop a side for the next one, but EJ won't buy that.

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