England Summer Tour - Part 2

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England Summer Tour - Part 2 - Page 10 Empty England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 9:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 11:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by munkian on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:We could play a team of tacklers even! We've gone down the route of balance to attack and it's worked well over jones tenure.

Except in the 6 nations and all games since.
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:56 am

You can try to pick a team focusing on defence first but there will always be a ceiling to what you can achieve with such an approach. Even if you pick the best tackling XV, if the players are either not working hard enough to get back into position in the defensive line or are not trusting their team-mates inside and are closing the gaps you will end up with spaces ripe for exploitation.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:59 am

No still worked munkian. As I said it's only been ireland where we were never in it and it was only when ford came on when there was a glimpse.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 12:00 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
munkian wrote:Ford isn't captain material, should always be a forward - or at least a back that can tackle.

Smallest player in the midfield but made 8 tackles missed two compared to Farrell who made 7 missed 2 and Slade who made 5 but missed 2.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=292953&league=289234

Has also captained club and country previously. I do prefer a forward as captain but we lack any option in that department, which is probably part of our overall problem.

Geordie, Brown was found out in defence for a lack of pace. We either need to adjust where he stands as a defending winger or change the winger. He was pretty good going forward.

Firstly, I'm a big fan of Ford and I would have him start the next test without a shadow of a doubt.

But although he was completing tackles he was completing them well behind the advantage line. Because players ran into him and carried him before he brought them down. This makes it harder for us to jackal the ball or even slow it down. It gives South Africa a much better running platform.

I don't know if we couldn't put Daly into the midfield and Ford into fullback in defence. On transition ball you wouldn't lose anything as you still have 2 ball players in midfield and Daly, who can make a break or pass the ball. But it might make a marginal improvement in the defence, especially as Farrell would shift into the 10 channel to shore that up and Daly's pace would be useful out wide.

I know we're trialling Daly at 15, but having Ford defend at 15 might be a better long-term option, regardless of who we play at fullback. We should definitely have the option of hiding him, because he is being increasingly targeted and he's not getting the required cover from the forwards. Having a specialist lump at 7 in Haskell probably helped earlier on, but if we want our 7 to do more work at the breakdown, then Ford will have to stand on his own two feet a bit more.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 12:04 pm

Ignoring the mistakes already highlighted:

Try 1 - Brown is too narrow in defence (not necessarily his fault I hasten to add - we may have had a numbers issue) so the space outside is being filled by Ford and Youngs who are covering cross field. Brown recovers well to help Ford complete the tackle.

Try 2 - Slade misses a tackle on SA 12 causing Brown to step in and easy space on the outside. George is done for pace and between them Daly and Youngs fail to cope with the kick through.

Try 3 - SA have 3 men outside the guy May is marking. England scramble but too late.

Try 4 - After a good driving maul, SA have 3 on 2 on the outside. Le Roux feints to use the outside man before darting over between Brown and Daly.

Try 5 - After a ruck inside 5m no one picks up the SA second row and May is left defending his channel against 4 players.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 12:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Ignoring the mistakes already highlighted:

Try 1 - Brown is too narrow in defence (not necessarily his fault I hasten to add - we may have had a numbers issue) so the space outside is being filled by Ford and Youngs who are covering cross field. Brown recovers well to help Ford complete the tackle.

Try 2 - Slade misses a tackle on SA 12 causing Brown to step in and easy space on the outside. George is done for pace and between them Daly and Youngs fail to cope with the kick through.

Try 3 - SA have 3 men outside the guy May is marking. England scramble but too late.

Try 4 - After a good driving maul, SA have 3 on 2 on the outside. Le Roux feints to use the outside man before darting over between Brown and Daly.

Try 5 - After a ruck inside 5m no one picks up the SA second row and May is left defending his channel against 4 players.

England normally defend quite narrow with the space between 13 and the winger. Joseph can make this work because of his pace, but Te'o struggles (see Italy and Scotland games).

With an untried 13, are we compensating by tucking our wingers in a bit? It does leave the space outside.

Could we spread a little further from the breakdown? Although if SA are making yards around 10/12, perhaps not.

I think what it comes down to is we always looked slow to reset when FDK started upping the tempo. So the players were all tight to the ruck, but weren't effective. It meant SA could get the ball wide and without getting caught by the rush and expose our weakness.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 1:53 pm

Worst case scenario, we lose the next two games with the same old mistakes.

What do we do?
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Post by robbo277 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:07 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Worst case scenario, we lose the next two games with the same old mistakes.

What do we do?

Jones will have to consider his selection, game plan and his coaching team. He needs a defence coach to replace Gustard and possibly a full time attack coach. He then needs to consider whether his style of play is working and how he gets more breakdown nous into the team.

The RFU will probably have to consider Jones position. I imagine they'd have some kind of appraisal system and would discuss the team's failings and how he intended to rectify these. If they weren't satisfied with his answers, this is probably the last chance to get rid of him before the World Cup, although it would be quite some embarrassment after extending his contract a short-while back. Still, Ashton and Cheika both got to World Cup finals in the last 3 tournaments with very short lead times to the tournament. The players are there.

As fans, I guess we continue having this groundhog day discussion about our lack of breakdown ability and narrow defence. Served us very well for a while, but it is painfully obvious that we need tweaks. First to the system, and then we have to question whether our current players are the right players to play in the new system.

A lot of countries are ahead of us in this process, but if they start to make things right after this tour I could see us coming fairly immediately competitive. We haven't really been completely blown away in any game, with the potential exception of the Ireland Grand Slam game this year, so we're still talking about little 1% and 2% improvements, rather than a complete overhaul of everything we've done over the past 2 years.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:11 pm

I think England have boxed themselves into a bit of a corner. On one hand we’ve been slow to develop a team that can challenge for the RWC19. Do we know how the BR, the centres and the back 3 will look next year? Who will be captain? Farrell for 10 or 12? Brown, Robshaw & Hartley in or out? On the other we really have to win at all costs the next 2 games just to stop the rot – 7 consecutive losses would be a disaster this close to the competition, whereas a series win in SA would be a real confidence booster. This is not the way I saw EJ’s tenure 3 years in though.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:28 pm

I dislike setting targets like win or else as it completely ignores what happens in the match. As above bounces of the ball and a few tight calls turn wins to losses and vice versa.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:37 pm

I wish we would forget about building a team to win the RWC in 2019, forget about social media interviews and talking to the press plus sponsor commitments etc, and just win the game this coming weekend.

England have too many distractions at the moment and the players need to knuckle down and perform, starting to feel like players are taking selection for their country for granted.
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Post by screamingaddabs on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dislike setting targets like win or else as it completely ignores what happens in the match. As above bounces of the ball and a few tight calls turn wins to losses and vice versa.

Whilst that point of view has some merit, I would argue that if we intend to be the best in the world then we need to be better by enough that the bounce of the ball (usually) is not a factor - win by enough that even if it doesn't go our way we still win. That's what the truly great teams manage and that has to be our goal. Given the time used up already that goal is something we want to be achieving by the world cup - so not long
.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:43 pm

Nice sentiment. The best 3 teams in the world are england ireland and new zealand. Each of them are involved in plenty of tight games though.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice sentiment. The best 3 teams in the world are england ireland and new zealand. Each of them are involved in plenty of tight games though.
I would argue strongly against that 7.5

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Post by screamingaddabs on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice sentiment. The best 3 teams in the world are england ireland and new zealand. Each of them are involved in plenty of tight games though.

Yup, and NZ fairly consistently win them, though perhaps not quite so much as they used to. That's the aim - consistently win the close games by being better by more than the bounce.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:49 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I wish we would forget about building a team to win the RWC in 2019, forget about social media interviews and talking to the press plus sponsor commitments etc, and just win the game this coming weekend.

England have too many distractions at the moment and the players need to knuckle down and perform, starting to feel like players are taking selection for their country for granted.

I agree with that.

We need to focus on -
Getting the right selection.
Getting the right tactics
Getting the right pre match build up and intensity levels.
Getting the players back in form whilst wearing a white shirt.

As all of that seems to have gone awfully wrong of late.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice sentiment. The best 3 teams in the world are england ireland and new zealand. Each of them are involved in plenty of tight games though.
I would argue strongly against that 7.5

On current form I agree with GF. At the start of the year I would have agreed with 7.5 and hope to do so again by the end of the year.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:50 pm

Although we're far from playing at our best, we'd beat any side at home (NZ and Ire not included).

3rd is a fair position right now for us.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:50 pm

Why gf? I'd still have england as the best personally.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:51 pm

Are you on drugs 7.5 or just having a mid afternoon WUm Wink

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:52 pm

And I'd add a caveat to match LT more closely. The team which should have won.against sa was shorn of one of the main reasons I feel were the best. A set of locks who are class. 4 top quality guys.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:53 pm

I wouldn't have England in the top 5 to be honest.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:54 pm

I don't wum gf. Don't see the point. Say your opinion and discuss don't say it for a reaction.or eventually you'll just go against what you've said previously eg lord Dowlais.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:54 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I wish we would forget about building a team to win the RWC in 2019, forget about social media interviews and talking to the press plus sponsor commitments etc, and just win the game this coming weekend.

England have too many distractions at the moment and the players need to knuckle down and perform, starting to feel like players are taking selection for their country for granted.

While I agree with your first few points it should be remembered that it is the distractions you outline are largely imposed on the players by RFU.

The bold point I strongly disagree with. Every match the players look to be trying their hardest, they are not being complacent just making too many mistakes - or at times just too slow. I have much more issue with teh quality of coaching and would love to see a little less of Eddie in the press.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:56 pm

starting to feel like players/coaches are taking selection for their country/adopted country for granted.
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Post by hawalsh on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 3:06 pm

Forwards lacked intensity & nous, and weren't helped by a backline that can look great on quality front foot ball, but continues to make poor decisions and is ponderously predictable on average to tougher ball (what we're more likely to face against the top sides). Halfback game management needs serious work. Spencer's pacier service was an improvement in his brief cameo, and got a bit more out of the forwards. If Youngs starts, he needs to be told to concentrate on getting things shifting, and the forwards instructed to trust in that and offer themselves up consistently from depth.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 3:57 pm

On all this "building for a World Cup" stuff, I think too much is made of the 4 year cycle personally. You should always be picking a team to win each test. Rotation will happen naturally because of injury, suspension and any loss in form.

Especially now, any player we pick in T2 has a chance of playing a World Cup opener in 16 months time. We should be picking our strongest team available. If Robshaw and Brown are our best options now, we pick them now. There's no point "gambling" caps on prospects who may not make it.

Looking at players like Hartley, Robshaw and Brown;

We've identified the hookers well and if Hartley never played again for England I think George and Cowan-Dickie would go well enough at hooker.

Brown is more problematic as there are no English 15s with sufficient talent playing well enough in the Premiership. He has had a look at Mallinder and Earle in camps, but hasn't been sufficiently impressed to cap either. So Jones is trialling Watson and now Daly there. He has developed a good stock of wingers and is looking to bring through Solomona as well, so he can afford to convert someone.

6 has been the worst position to try to find alternatives. He hasn't even been able to find a player to flank with Robshaw, let alone replace Robshaw, and has often reverted to playing locks there because the quality of option hasn't been high enough.

With Underhill and Curry going well at 7 when injuries have allowed them to play and Shields and Wilson in this touring squad, maybe we can trial some other options at 6. But up until the last two games Robshaw hasn't been a problem and he may yet turn it round.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 4:06 pm

I disagree about trailing people in the back row Robbo.

Has he given players like Wilson, Armand, Ewers, Kvesic, etc etc an actual go?

No he hasn't. He's had them in training squads...but that's not an indicator to how they perform on the pitch in a game.

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Post by nth on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 4:30 pm

hawalsh wrote:Forwards lacked intensity & nous, and weren't helped by a backline that can look great on quality front foot ball, but continues to make poor decisions and is ponderously predictable on average to tougher ball (what we're more likely to face against the top sides).  Halfback game management needs serious work.  Spencer's pacier service was an improvement in his brief cameo, and got a bit more out of the forwards.  If Youngs starts, he needs to be told to concentrate on getting things shifting, and the forwards instructed to trust in that and offer themselves up  consistently from depth.

The half back blend and dictation of play hasn't been right for some time.

Ford in full flight is a wonderful player but I'm increasingly seeing a player that lacks the ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and is prone to go missing or crumble in matches when forwards aren't dominant.  Cipriani is much the same.  Farrell seems more capable in that regard but definitely not up with the best.

Youngs has historically been capable of grabbing a game but hasn't for a while and doesn't look like it on this season's form.  Care can do good things from the bench but has too frequently proven he's not up to marshalling tough internationals from the start.  I've had hopes for a while of Robson being able to step up but wasn't impressed with his showing in the Barbarians match.  Some promise in Spencer but I need to see more.  One or both of Spencer and Robson need to be given much greater game time.

I suspect Jones won't change the backline much for the second test but if there isn't much change in performance from the first test I'd like to see Spencer/Robson come on earlier and paired with Ford for a while.  If that doesn't show promise, with the players we've got on tour, for the third test I'd be inclined to look at:

Spencer
Farrell
Solomona
Lozowski
Daly
May
Brown

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Post by TJ on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 5:03 pm

My feeling with this is it is a structural / tactical issue.
As the game moves on the way the players are used to laying in the AP is not the way they need to play in internationals and the european cup. Just subtle differences but that is enough.

YOu need to be quicker to the breakdown, quicker to move the ball and sit flatter at 10 to create time and space for outside backs.

YOu need players quicker of thinking and over the ground to attack breakdowns both offensivly and defensivly and backs need to do tis as well. Watch the Wales game against Argentina where I thought they controlled the breakdown really well and contrast to how england went about it.

I also think the players are not used to as much ball on the field time.

Pretty much everyone else uses the club game to prepare for internationals. England cannot because of the structure

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 5:20 pm

Tbf you don't watch the aviva tj and you're judgements of england players tend to reflect bias.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 5:22 pm

There is a wider issue of standardised reffing with aviva refs much less tolerant to going off the ball to compete and softer of defending the ball.

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Post by Yoda on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 6:50 pm

It's not as bad as people think. Looking at these match stats it was clearly pens and coughing up ball. Take Robshaw and sinkler (both top heavy) out the mix and our ball retention would be alot better. http://www.espn.in/rugby/matchstats?gameId=292953&league=289234

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Post by Yoda on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 6:59 pm

An interesting comparison with Australia Ireland we have virtually the same ruck success as both of them.
http://www.espn.com.au/rugby/matchstats?gameId=292696&league=289234

We need to cut out penalties and defend better. An unusually one sided pen count could either mean one of two things. 1. Ref was biased or 2. We are not savvy enough. Let's be honest it's the latter and until we address the real elephant in the room then we are pissing against the wind.

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Post by ebop on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 7:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why gf? I'd still have england as the best personally.
This is quality humour 7.5 Laugh
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 8:11 pm

nth wrote:
hawalsh wrote:Forwards lacked intensity & nous, and weren't helped by a backline that can look great on quality front foot ball, but continues to make poor decisions and is ponderously predictable on average to tougher ball (what we're more likely to face against the top sides).  Halfback game management needs serious work.  Spencer's pacier service was an improvement in his brief cameo, and got a bit more out of the forwards.  If Youngs starts, he needs to be told to concentrate on getting things shifting, and the forwards instructed to trust in that and offer themselves up  consistently from depth.

The half back blend and dictation of play hasn't been right for some time.

Ford in full flight is a wonderful player but I'm increasingly seeing a player that lacks the ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and is prone to go missing or crumble in matches when forwards aren't dominant.  Cipriani is much the same.  Farrell seems more capable in that regard but definitely not up with the best.

Youngs has historically been capable of grabbing a game but hasn't for a while and doesn't look like it on this season's form.  Care can do good things from the bench but has too frequently proven he's not up to marshalling tough internationals from the start.  I've had hopes for a while of Robson being able to step up but wasn't impressed with his showing in the Barbarians match.  Some promise in Spencer but I need to see more.  One or both of Spencer and Robson need to be given much greater game time.

I suspect Jones won't change the backline much for the second test but if there isn't much change in performance from the first test I'd like to see Spencer/Robson come on earlier and paired with Ford for a while.  If that doesn't show promise, with the players we've got on tour, for the third test I'd be inclined to look at:

Spencer
Farrell
Solomona
Lozowski
Daly
May
Brown

As a player who has an AB win, numerous European cups and Premiership titles...I would disagree. I would be more than happy with Farrell at 10.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 8:12 pm

Lol. Good one ebop.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 8:14 pm

TJ wrote:My feeling with this is it is a structural / tactical issue.
As the game moves on the way the players are used to laying in the AP is not the way they need to play in internationals and the european cup.  Just subtle differences but that is enough.  

YOu need to be quicker to the breakdown, quicker to move the ball and  sit flatter at 10 to create time and space for outside backs.

YOu need players quicker of thinking and over the ground to attack breakdowns both offensivly and defensivly and backs need to do tis as well.  Watch the Wales game against Argentina where I thought they controlled the breakdown really well and contrast to how england went about it.

I also think the players are not used to as much ball on the field time.

Pretty much everyone else uses the club game to prepare for internationals.  England cannot because of the structure

I agree and disagree with you.

I agree its a tactical issue...I disagree its a Premiership structural issue.
The biggest issue is Eddie Jones and his selections and the tactical systems he is employing. They were awful in the 6n...and they were not right in the first test either.

He needs to get it right in the next test..or the doubters will be extremely vocal.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 8:19 pm

TJ wrote:My feeling with this is it is a structural / tactical issue.
As the game moves on the way the players are used to laying in the AP is not the way they need to play in internationals and the european cup.  Just subtle differences but that is enough.  

YOu need to be quicker to the breakdown, quicker to move the ball and  sit flatter at 10 to create time and space for outside backs.

YOu need players quicker of thinking and over the ground to attack breakdowns both offensivly and defensivly and backs need to do tis as well.  Watch the Wales game against Argentina where I thought they controlled the breakdown really well and contrast to how england went about it.

I also think the players are not used to as much ball on the field time.

Pretty much everyone else uses the club game to prepare for internationals.  England cannot because of the structure

I agree and disagree with you.

I agree its a tactical issue...I disagree its a Premiership structural issue.
The biggest issue is Eddie Jones and his selections and the tactical systems he is employing. They were awful in the 6n...and they were not right in the first test either.

He needs to get it right in the next test..or the doubters will be extremely vocal.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 8:20 pm

TJ wrote:My feeling with this is it is a structural / tactical issue.
As the game moves on the way the players are used to laying in the AP is not the way they need to play in internationals and the european cup.  Just subtle differences but that is enough.  

YOu need to be quicker to the breakdown, quicker to move the ball and  sit flatter at 10 to create time and space for outside backs.

YOu need players quicker of thinking and over the ground to attack breakdowns both offensivly and defensivly and backs need to do tis as well.  Watch the Wales game against Argentina where I thought they controlled the breakdown really well and contrast to how england went about it.

I also think the players are not used to as much ball on the field time.

Pretty much everyone else uses the club game to prepare for internationals.  England cannot because of the structure

I agree and disagree with you.

I agree its a tactical issue...I disagree its a Premiership structural issue.
The biggest issue is Eddie Jones and his selections and the tactical systems he is employing. They were awful in the 6n...and they were not right in the first test either.

He needs to get it right in the next test..or the doubters will be extremely vocal.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 10:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Just rewatched the highlights and you have to say the first two tries that change the momentum would easily have been stopped another day.

1st Ford is defending on the wing and is just bowled over in a front on tackle that does little, letting the SA player make crucial yards and offload.

With Brown's help the tackle is completed and the player goes to ground with the ball. There is no offload. de Klerk then picks up the ball and goes through the hole left by Itoje. Admittedly the winger makes about 3 yards from when first contact is made on the 5m line, but biggest mistake is Itoje's eagerness.

2nd a Poopie bounce dodges Daly who's trying too hard to dive on a ball he could've just tapped in hindsight. Likewise bizarrely Young's who's neck and neck with the SA player gives up when he sees Daly there rather then keep working hard.



1) I do not think it was a bad bounce
2) Looks to me that Daly is trying to pick the ball up as his hands are facing up under the ball. Not sure why though - simply dropping on it would have been easy.
3) I assume you mean tap down on it rather than tap it out as that would have been a penalty try. Ball is in the air so just falling on it the safest option.
4) Had not noticed Youngs stopping hgis run before - does look odd.

Ah you're correct about the no offload, must have been having a moment! But it's that initial poor tackle that does for us in that instance, as soon as we're on the back foot from it we look likely to concede.

I think you're saying the same as me about the second, Daly made a very simple situation far harder then it had to be and it but him in the arse.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 9:58 am



Video released on Monday by the England camp, featuring Jamie George and Elliot Daly again.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 10:27 am

yappysnap wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Just rewatched the highlights and you have to say the first two tries that change the momentum would easily have been stopped another day.

1st Ford is defending on the wing and is just bowled over in a front on tackle that does little, letting the SA player make crucial yards and offload.

With Brown's help the tackle is completed and the player goes to ground with the ball. There is no offload. de Klerk then picks up the ball and goes through the hole left by Itoje. Admittedly the winger makes about 3 yards from when first contact is made on the 5m line, but biggest mistake is Itoje's eagerness.

2nd a Poopie bounce dodges Daly who's trying too hard to dive on a ball he could've just tapped in hindsight. Likewise bizarrely Young's who's neck and neck with the SA player gives up when he sees Daly there rather then keep working hard.



1) I do not think it was a bad bounce
2) Looks to me that Daly is trying to pick the ball up as his hands are facing up under the ball. Not sure why though - simply dropping on it would have been easy.
3) I assume you mean tap down on it rather than tap it out as that would have been a penalty try. Ball is in the air so just falling on it the safest option.
4) Had not noticed Youngs stopping hgis run before - does look odd.

Ah you're correct about the no offload, must have been having a moment! But it's that initial poor tackle that does for us in that instance, as soon as we're on the back foot from it we look likely to concede.

I think you're saying the same as me about the second, Daly made a very simple situation far harder then it had to be and it but him in the arse.

Agree re Daly. I was always taught to get my body behind the ball if diving down to retrieve it. Similar to a goalkeeper in football or a wicketkeeper at cricket. That way if you miss it with your hands you'll still have a modicum of control over the ball. We see it too often with England, trying to be clever rather than just doing the basics and getting the job done. The Boks first try and Itoje jumping out the line is another example.

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Post by munkian on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 11:03 am

Ring of steel, old school
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 11:31 am

England also need to stop the woeful kicking tactics!
I see the U20's have those tactics aswell!

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 3:09 pm

Launchbury thought to be fit. Talk of Shields starting at six, which would make the bench composition interesting.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 3:57 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Launchbury thought to be fit. Talk of Shields starting at six, which would make the bench composition interesting.

If he brings Launchbury and Shields into the starting line-up, out go Isiekwe and Robshaw.

Jones would need to add a second row to the bench or, if Jones sees Shields as adequate second row cover (and he did last week with a rookie starting), a flanker onto the bench with no specialist lock.

So you'd think it would be Isiekwe or Robshaw dropping onto the bench, or Wilson if Jones decides that he was sufficiently unimpressed by both last week. Simmonds is a specialist 8 so doesn't really fit the remit, while Hill and Earl probably won't get promoted.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 4:03 pm

Surely Simmonds can cover all the back row. Hes better suited to the flank at international level than 8.

Isiewke on the bench, Simmonds on the bench...give Robshaw a day off.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 4:38 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Simmonds can cover all the back row. Hes better suited to the flank at international level than 8.

Isiewke on the bench, Simmonds on the bench...give Robshaw a day off.

I was looking at who Eddie might pick assuming a starting 5: Launchbury, Itoje, Shields, Curry, Vunipola.

I'd probably also have Isiekwe and Simmonds on the bench with Hughes dropping out the squad altogether. I think we agree on this?

But looking at what Eddie might do, if we assume that Eddie will stick with Hughes (fairly sure he will), then having Hughes and Simmonds on the bench with no specialist locks or flankers would be a bit daft in my opinion, even if Simmonds can theoretically cover flanker.

So with Hughes in the 20 shirt, the options for 19 are Isiekwe (who I'd go for in this situation) or Robshaw/Wilson with Shields covering second row (and I wouldn't rule out Eddie going this way).

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 5:16 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Launchbury thought to be fit. Talk of Shields starting at six, which would make the bench composition interesting.

Yeah, heard an interview with Borthwick stating Launchbury would be fit for selection, while also admitting he had yet to train with the squad.

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