England Summer Tour - Part 2

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England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 9:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 11:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Like gary graham. But any coach would pick the players he thinks best. As Lancaster did as woodward did etc etc

Gary Graham should choose Scotland.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:30 of the 34 players touring were in the English Academy system.

22 of the 24 players deemed not available were in the English Academy system.

Who?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:04 pm

Shields Hughes woodward solomona?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:07 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I suspect an English coach wouldnt be so quick to pick up foreign journeymen.
On what basis do you say that?

Woodward fast tracked Henry Paul
Robinson selected Mark van Gisbergen as soon as he qualified on residency
Ashton preferred Vainikolo to Simpson Daniel
Johnson selected Flutey, Barritt, Fourie, Botha, Waldrom and Hape

They all qualified for England on different grounds but all looked as "foreign" as the likes of Shields, Woodward, Te'o, Harrison, Solomona etc


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shields Hughes woodward solomona?

Aye, they are the four players in the touring party who were not in our academy system. Rokoduguni and Te'o in the group who were deemed unavailable.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:37 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I suspect an English coach wouldnt be so quick to pick up foreign journeymen.
On what basis do you say that?

Woodward fast tracked Henry Paul
Robinson selected Mark van Gisbergen as soon as he qualified on residency
Ashton preferred Vainikolo to Simpson Daniel
Johnson selected Flutey, Barritt, Fourie, Botha, Waldrom and Hape

They all qualified for England on different grounds but all looked as "foreign" as the likes of Shields, Woodward, Te'o, Harrison, Solomona etc


Lancaster first capped Barritt. Of those you mention he (perhaps with Flutey who did go with the Lions to SA) is the only guy you could call a success. That list does show that all coaches will select whoever is eligible that they feel is best, but should also act as a warning to others on the lack of success (Sam Burgess, Barrie-Jon Mather are other players who perhaps were fast tracked from outside the system and "failed")

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:38 pm

I wish burgess had stuck with it. I doubt wed be talking about who to play at 6.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 30 May 2018, 1:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I wish burgess had stuck with it. I doubt wed be talking about who to play at 6.

Burgess could have been a superstar at 6, said this from day 1. His and SL's clamour to have him at the WC spoilt any chance of him being a success, such a waste.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 30 May 2018, 2:08 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...His and SL's clamour to have him at the WC spoilt any chance of him being a success, such a waste.
That whole drama is getting more attention, since Lancaster has been a success working with Cullen at Leinster. All the players speak highly of his input, and I doubt they are doing that just to troll England.

Much as Rob Andrew rubs a lot of people up the wrong way, it seems as if he described Lancaster's last year fairly accurately in his book. Something caused Lancaster to lose his bearings, and that uncertainty spread through the squad. The selection of Burgess was just one symptom of the broader malaise. Coupled with a conditioning programme which didn't suit the games we ended up playing, it left the team with no self-confidence.

I haven't yet heard anyone regret calling for Lancaster's head. Even those pundits who recognize his achievements in Ireland, don't seem to think he could have rehabilitated his career while retaining the England job.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 30 May 2018, 2:41 pm

I still maintain that Lancaster's hand was forced somewhat over the whole Burgess situation. And I also felt extremely sorry for Burgess himself. The poor guy was expected to play 6 for Bath then go to an England training camp and play 12, all of which was in a game he had precious little experience of. To cap it off, everyone seemed to blame Sam's inexperience when England lost to Wales, when he was actually one of the better players on the pitch and did little wrong. It was only after he'd been substituted that the wheels came off and the defence went pear shaped.

However, it was clear that Lancaster was out of his depth at the RWC. I think that he regrets the selection issues and his planned substitutions but I guess we're unlikely to hear that from him.

Burgess was indeed a waste. But I blame the England set-up entirely for that. I maintain that the only decent International league convert that England have had is Jason Robinson. Farrell, Paul, Vainikolo, Hape, Burgess, Mather, Eastmond. All hyped, all got fed up, or badly treated, or simply weren't good enough. And most of them were played at 12.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 30 May 2018, 4:49 pm

Doesn't look like anyone is confident about the direction of this tour. I've just heard Peter Winterbottom suggest it could be 3-0 or 0-3. Thanks, Wints.

There have always been calls for Jones to use different personnel, and the pundit class is in full spray gun mode now. There may well be people who can perform better, but the immediate problem seems less about who is in the squad, and more about what the team is being asked to do.

When Lancaster and Jones first took over, their England teams immediately became much harder to beat than the sides which turned up at the 2011 and 2015 World Cups. A lot of that was down to passionately committed defence. Neither the 2012 Six Natiions England, or the 2016 version, were exceptionally well-drilled; they just didn't give up.

In 2016, this was most noticeable in Australia on tour. The Wallabies almost blew us away at the start of the first Test, but we some how hung on, and capitalized on opportunities when they fell our way. It sometimes seems as if we've lost the knack of defending like madmen because players are sticking too inflexibly to the roles they've been asked to learn.


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Wed 30 May 2018, 7:40 pm

Personally I just want them to play good Rugby again, do the basics well and start to believe in themselves and not get tied up worrying about losing. The last thing we need is wringing hands and navel gazing.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Thu 31 May 2018, 10:12 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:An Aussie coach will continue to pick them yes.

I suspect an English coach wouldnt be so quick to pick up foreign journeymen.

Like Martin Johnson? Botha, Fourie, Flutey and Hape come to mind without too much thought.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 31 May 2018, 10:16 am

robbo277 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:An Aussie coach will continue to pick them yes.

I suspect an English coach wouldnt be so quick to pick up foreign journeymen.

Like Martin Johnson? Botha, Fourie, Flutey and Hape come to mind without too much thought.

Well done you caught up...ive already had that thrown down my throat already!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Thu 31 May 2018, 10:18 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:An Aussie coach will continue to pick them yes.

I suspect an English coach wouldnt be so quick to pick up foreign journeymen.

Like Martin Johnson? Botha, Fourie, Flutey and Hape come to mind without too much thought.

Well done you caught up...ive already had that thrown down my throat already!

Sorry, I replied before I saw the second page! Tried to delete it but you'd already replied to it.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 31 May 2018, 10:25 am

You mean like Botha, Hape, Flutey etc Geordie??

(Sorry, just want to rub it in Wink)

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 31 May 2018, 10:25 am

I was proven wrong Robbo, but I still maintain theres too many foreigners in our team / squad / fringe.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 31 May 2018, 10:27 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You mean like Botha, Hape, Flutey etc Geordie??

(Sorry, just want to rub it in Wink)

At least Botha had been here for years actually working whilst playing rugby.

Hape, Fltuey...all played for other countries. Should NEVER have played for England just like Solomona, etc etc

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Driver on Thu 31 May 2018, 1:39 pm

Riki Flutey was one of the best players in the side when he played for England. Always gave 100%.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 31 May 2018, 1:53 pm

Still was a Kiwi who played for the Maoris...

Anyway I know I bore people so ill draw a line under it now and cheer on the United nations of accents.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 31 May 2018, 2:02 pm

Ban the geordies

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Driver on Thu 31 May 2018, 2:10 pm

I was thinking for the first test if i was Eddie

i'd line up

Genge, George, Sincker
Itoje, Launchbury
Shields, Vunipola, Curry

Youngs, Farrell (C)
Francis , Slade
May, Daley, Solmanona

LCD, Vunipola, Williams, Isakawe, Wilson, Robson, Cipriani, Earle

My argument for starting the props, Solmanona, Shields and Curry with the likes of Isakawe, Wilson, Cips and Earle is that we need to know that they can do it at this level.

For me there is no point on Chris Robshaw touring, he looks jaded and in need of a rest plus after 7 years of international rugby we know what we'll get from him.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 31 May 2018, 2:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ban the geordies

id probably get more work done if you did.... Whistle thumbsup

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by lostinwales on Thu 31 May 2018, 2:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ban the geordies

id probably get more work done if you did.... Whistle thumbsup

Yeah at least with the united nations accents generally they can make themselves understood. They probably need a translator for geordies...

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 31 May 2018, 2:40 pm

Solmanona

Isn't this something you get from not cooking eggs correctly Driver Wink

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 31 May 2018, 2:55 pm

Driver wrote:I was thinking for the first test if i was Eddie

i'd line up

Genge, George, Sincker
Itoje, Launchbury
Shields, Vunipola, Curry

Youngs, Farrell (C)
Francis , Slade
May, Daley, Solmanona

LCD, Vunipola, Williams, Isakawe, Wilson, Robson, Cipriani, Earle
Shields will be in Dunedin tomorrow night, captaining the Hurricanes against the Highlanders. The earliest he will meet the England team is the weekend. Don't see how that will give him any where near the preparation time to be in the starting XV for the first test.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Driver on Thu 31 May 2018, 3:49 pm

I thought he was travelling with the original squad.

If not i'd swap him and Wilson round for the first test.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Thu 31 May 2018, 11:08 pm

Now teo's out it will Ford Farrell axis and lozowski I reckon. We all know Robshaw will be in the team as well but where will be telling factor. Genuine question for any chief fans can/has Simmonds played six or seven? He could be a brilliant six I reckon.

If he plays Farrell, lozowski and Slade in the same midfield it could either be a masterstroke or a complete failure I can't quite decide. Still onwards and upwards I hope!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 9:41 am

Yoda wrote:Now teo's out it will Ford Farrell axis and lozowski I reckon. We all know Robshaw will be in the team as well but where will be telling factor. Genuine question for any chief fans can/has Simmonds played six or seven? He could be a brilliant six I reckon.

If he plays Farrell, lozowski and Slade in the same midfield it could either be a masterstroke or a complete failure I can't quite decide. Still onwards and upwards I hope!

If Cipriani plays 15 as well then at least they dont have to worry about FH cover Rolling Eyes

It does leave England massively short of variety in the center, but there cant be any complaints about a lack of creative players.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 9:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ban the geordies

Yeah its a bit ironic for him to be moaning about accents!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 9:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rate them as the best in the world.
Lol, God bless your dry British sense of humour, very good 7.5. You were joking right? Yeah of course you were, great work mate thumbsup
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:21 am

No. Why? Ireland are good but I think full strength we are a shade better.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by munkian on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:23 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. Why? Ireland are good but I think full strength we are a shade better.

No...just...no.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:26 am

Which bit? You don't believe england are better than ireland?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:34 am

You’re living in lala land 7.5
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:38 am

Hate that film. But nope don't think I am. I assume you think ireland are the best then ebop?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:43 am

No, the ABs are the best 7.5
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by munkian on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which bit? You don't believe england are better than ireland?

No, what results say otherwise

Ireland have a 6 Nations, European and League title this season.

They have huge qualitystrength in depth.

I'd say Sexton is probably the best 10 in the world right now.

England without Farell and at least one Vunipola in the 23 look fairly average.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:47 am

Lol.ok ebop.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:47 am

England are melting down a little bit 7.5

Everyone knows Eddie Jones has a limited lifespan and maybe he went too hard too soon to restore some much needed pride. He did that with 18 wins but at what cost? He’s melting down and his players aren’t responding.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:49 am

I'd agree sexton is back to his best and best in the world. And yes I do think england are better with 3 of our better players in the side. Wouldn't start mako personally but great off the bench.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:49 am

Lol. Ok ebop.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:53 am

7.5, I heard Eddie brought in a ‘brain’ coach to help with some mental fragility and slow learning. Bit desperate at this stage of the RWC cycle isn’t it?

Care to comment?
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:57 am

Quite normal in professional sport these days. It'll be rarer not to.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:03 am

Indeed 7.5, I imagine it’s usually a proactive ‘before the horse has bolted’ resource that professional teams have.

But with England, it smells a bit like desperation, “Eddie Jones says his England rugby players are slow learners and he has brought in an expert in brain research to find out why”.

That’s different. That’s a desperation ‘ah oh we have a problem’ kind of head-shinkery after 4 losses on the bounce to find out what’s wrong. Not the kind of psychology that is based on nurturing an understanding of ones own mind.

Eddie is melting down mate and his players will be thinking ‘what a c0ck’.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:11 am

Lol. Ok ebop.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:18 am

Your England team leaked 68 points and lost to a half-drunk scratch team of dudes that met each other the week before

It’s a worry 7.5, you must be worried, Eddie is worried

Enjoy the lolz
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:19 am

Lol. You're on fire this morning.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:19 am

Evening mate, keep up

We’re ahead of you Wink
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:22 am

Ebops been on the Sauce in Aukland or wherever....

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

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