England Summer Tour - Part 2

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England Summer Tour - Part 2 - Page 11 Empty England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 9:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 11:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 7:07 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Launchbury thought to be fit. Talk of Shields starting at six, which would make the bench composition interesting.

If he brings Launchbury and Shields into the starting line-up, out go Isiekwe and Robshaw.

Jones would need to add a second row to the bench or, if Jones sees Shields as adequate second row cover (and he did last week with a rookie starting), a flanker onto the bench with no specialist lock.

So you'd think it would be Isiekwe or Robshaw dropping onto the bench, or Wilson if Jones decides that he was sufficiently unimpressed by both last week. Simmonds is a specialist 8 so doesn't really fit the remit, while Hill and Earl probably won't get promoted.
I would think last week's game proved comprehensively that Shields is not adequate second row cover. We are told he is a good back row player - time will tell.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 10:45 pm

Did Shields play second row?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 5:22 am

He did Yappy, he came on for Isiekwe after around 35mins. Ironically, Wilson happily covers all back 5 positions and has played a fair bit at lock for Falcons..... Whistle

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Post by yappysnap on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 5:43 am

FFS what's the point in taking a very good flanker and in his first week playing for a while new country and team play him at second row?

I rate Eddie but sometimes I don't understand his reasoning

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Post by munkian on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 7:57 am

yappysnap wrote:Did Shields play second row?

Yes, Eddie took off Isiekwe - your fastest forward on the pitch and replaced him with a flanker to 'speed up the game'

Its getting to the point where its not even amusing anymore and I'm starting to feel bad for you Hug
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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 8:07 am

yappysnap wrote:FFS what's the point in taking a very good flanker and in his first week playing for a while new country and team play him at second row?
Jones baulked at having both Isiekwe and Hill in the same match day squad for the opening game. Once he had made that decision, he only had Shields or Wilson available as lock cover (not sure if Hughes has any experience). I don't know if he baulked because Hill hasn't impressed in training, or if he was more concerned about having too much inexperience for the first Test.

Isiekwe is still a puzzle to me. No-one questioned his selection for the tour, and yet I haven't seen anyone really arguing he deserved to be left on. Rob Andrew says Isiekwe kept taking up flanker positions, as if he was back at Saracens, instead of acting like a lock and doing more grunt work. I suppose we'll soon learn whether Isiekwe is now entirely surplus to requirements, or due to be given another chance.

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Post by munkian on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 8:15 am

He was probably trying to cover the hole that Wobshaw was leaving.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 8:36 am

Genge misses training due to needing a scan on his knee.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 10:00 am

robbo277 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Simmonds can cover all the back row. Hes better suited to the flank at international level than 8.

Isiewke on the bench, Simmonds on the bench...give Robshaw a day off.

I was looking at who Eddie might pick assuming a starting 5: Launchbury, Itoje, Shields, Curry, Vunipola.

I'd probably also have Isiekwe and Simmonds on the bench with Hughes dropping out the squad altogether. I think we agree on this?

But looking at what Eddie might do, if we assume that Eddie will stick with Hughes (fairly sure he will), then having Hughes and Simmonds on the bench with no specialist locks or flankers would be a bit daft in my opinion, even if Simmonds can theoretically cover flanker.

So with Hughes in the 20 shirt, the options for 19 are Isiekwe (who I'd go for in this situation) or Robshaw/Wilson with Shields covering second row (and I wouldn't rule out Eddie going this way).

Completely agree mate. Hughes needs a season away from International rugby to find his health, fitness and form.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 10:02 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He did Yappy, he came on for Isiekwe after around 35mins. Ironically, Wilson happily covers all back 5 positions and has played a fair bit at lock for Falcons..... Whistle

Ah Sarge man...don't go making sensible comments! Rolling Eyes

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:35 am

Launchbury and Shields start. Isiekwe and Robshaw out the squad entirely - Mark Wilson coming into the 19 shirt to cover second row and flank.

Only other change is Cipriani onto the bench over Piers Francis.

By and large the changes Eddie has made should improve the squad. I would have still gone further and brought Genge and Simmonds onto the bench, but this should hopefully be enough to overturn a 3 point loss.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:37 am

robbo277 wrote:Launchbury and Shields start. Isiekwe and Robshaw out the squad entirely - Mark Wilson coming into the 19 shirt to cover second row and flank.

Only other change is Cipriani onto the bench over Piers Francis.

By and large the changes Eddie has made should improve the squad. I would have still gone further and brought Genge and Simmonds onto the bench, but this should hopefully be enough to overturn a 3 point loss.


LondonTiger wrote:Genge misses training due to needing a scan on his knee.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:38 am

Starters

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 19 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 59 caps), 11 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 70 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 46 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 75 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 50 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 26 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 11 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 52 caps), 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 20 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps, 1 cap), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 2 cap), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 35 caps)

Finishers


16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 6 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 57 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps), 19 Mark Wilson (Newcastle 2 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 15 caps), 21 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 1 cap), 22 Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 14 caps), 23 Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, 3 caps)

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:49 am

Arguably the best pack we have - those who couldn’t make it like Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Kruis… wouldn’t necessarily improve it. So no excuses up front. Just a bit light at 13 & wing/FB. Bench looks green but interesting. If we don’t win this one I’ll start to worry big time.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:50 am

Pretty much as expected I guess, glad to see Robshaw dropped.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:51 am

LondonTiger wrote:
robbo277 wrote:Launchbury and Shields start. Isiekwe and Robshaw out the squad entirely - Mark Wilson coming into the 19 shirt to cover second row and flank.

Only other change is Cipriani onto the bench over Piers Francis.

By and large the changes Eddie has made should improve the squad. I would have still gone further and brought Genge and Simmonds onto the bench, but this should hopefully be enough to overturn a 3 point loss.


LondonTiger wrote:Genge misses training due to needing a scan on his knee.

Didn't see that. I'm not sure it's a change Eddie would have made anyway to be honest.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:52 am

I would have kept Isiekwe on the bench but other than that looks a decent selection

Excited to see how the back 5 of the pack go

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:54 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Arguably the best pack we have - those who couldn’t make it like Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Kruis… wouldn’t necessarily improve it. So no excuses up front. Just a bit light at 13 & wing/FB. Bench looks green but interesting. If we don’t win this one I’ll start to worry big time.

Shirts are definitely up for grabs all round the pitch. If this team turns the series around and the players you mention, and backs like Joseph, Te'o, Watson and Nowell could find themselves on the outside looking in come the autumn time.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 11:54 am

LondonTiger wrote:Starters

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 19 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 59 caps), 11 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 70 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 46 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 75 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 50 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 26 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 11 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 52 caps), 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 20 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps, 1 cap), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 2 cap), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 35 caps)  

Finishers


16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 6 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 57 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps), 19 Mark Wilson (Newcastle 2 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 15 caps), 21 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 1 cap), 22 Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 14 caps), 23 Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, 3 caps)

It's very striking when you see it written down how few caps Cipriani has. 14 caps over 10 years.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 12:07 pm

I think we have Sinckler and Williams the wrong way round, and really worried about Marler's form.

We need strong performances for a number of players - ideally the Sarries lads. Good performances from them would make the team so much better than last week.

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 12:47 pm

He has only him self to blame, our version of Welsh world class legend Henson. Whistle
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 12:52 pm

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
robbo277 wrote:Launchbury and Shields start. Isiekwe and Robshaw out the squad entirely - Mark Wilson coming into the 19 shirt to cover second row and flank.

Only other change is Cipriani onto the bench over Piers Francis.

By and large the changes Eddie has made should improve the squad. I would have still gone further and brought Genge and Simmonds onto the bench, but this should hopefully be enough to overturn a 3 point loss.


LondonTiger wrote:Genge misses training due to needing a scan on his knee.

Didn't see that. I'm not sure it's a change Eddie would have made anyway to be honest.

Given that Eddie wasn't keen to introduce Marler last weekend I presume that he wanted impact and was hoping Mako after a sit down withof offer more than Marler fresh. Genge may have been struggling with the injury before the first test, it's only been confirmed he's gone for a scan this week.

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Post by thomh on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 1:13 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Given that Eddie wasn't keen to introduce Marler last weekend I presume that he wanted impact and was hoping Mako after a sit down withof offer more than Marler fresh. Genge may have been struggling with the injury before the first test, it's only been confirmed he's gone for a scan this week.

What do you mean? Marler was already getting ready to come on before the sin-bin happened, and I'm pretty Mako never returned? May be wrong but I can't find any reference online.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 1:20 pm

Whilst Launchbury would normally play the full eighty, a big gamble with his current fitness. Wilson won't take a backward step but also a big ask to play lock in S.A.

England just have to keep the ball to turn the tables on inexperienced members of that S.A. pack and stop giving the ball in space to Le Roux where Farrell and Slade, as yet another combination, look shaky defensively and exposing the wingers.
Easy....

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:00 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Whilst Launchbury would normally play the full eighty, a big gamble with his current fitness. Wilson won't take a backward step but also a big ask to play lock in S.A.

England just have to keep the ball to turn the tables on inexperienced members of that S.A. pack and stop giving the ball in space to Le Roux where Farrell and Slade, as yet another combination, look shaky defensively and exposing the wingers.
Easy....

Don't you worry about our Mark. He's a tough old boy that one!
However I genuinely don't get Eddie Jones selections.

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Post by munkian on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:08 pm

Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:13 pm

munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:20 pm

thomh wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:

Given that Eddie wasn't keen to introduce Marler last weekend I presume that he wanted impact and was hoping Mako after a sit down withof offer more than Marler fresh. Genge may have been struggling with the injury before the first test, it's only been confirmed he's gone for a scan this week.

What do you mean? Marler was already getting ready to come on before the sin-bin happened, and I'm pretty Mako never returned? May be wrong but I can't find any reference online.

I didn't think Mako returned either. Mako is on another planet to Marler at the moment.

I did hope to see Genge on the bench for the first test because he's been in much better form than Marler this season, and he looks ready to make the step up. He may not have made it because he may have been struggling with injury, but Jones did pick Marler ahead of Genge for the Barbarians game, which along with Marler getting the nod on the bench gives a good indicator of the pecking order.

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Post by munkian on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

We have oodles. Swap you for a lock ? (not a 6)
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:27 pm

munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

We have oodles. Swap you for a lock ? (not a 6)

Yeah but yours are either permanently broken or currently unproven in internationals (and we have the latter already with both Currys, Willises and Underhill)

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Post by TJ on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:28 pm

Amusing but with a few grains of truth
" I would tell you what the answer is but John Barclay stole it"

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Post by munkian on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:33 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

We have oodles. Swap you for a lock ? (not a 6)

Yeah but yours are either permanently broken or currently unproven in internationals (and we have the latter already with both Currys, Willises and Underhill)

I'm going to put it out there that James Davies hasn't much left to prove.
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:34 pm

robbo277 wrote:
thomh wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:

Given that Eddie wasn't keen to introduce Marler last weekend I presume that he wanted impact and was hoping Mako after a sit down withof offer more than Marler fresh. Genge may have been struggling with the injury before the first test, it's only been confirmed he's gone for a scan this week.

What do you mean? Marler was already getting ready to come on before the sin-bin happened, and I'm pretty Mako never returned? May be wrong but I can't find any reference online.

I didn't think Mako returned either. Mako is on another planet to Marler at the moment.

I did hope to see Genge on the bench for the first test because he's been in much better form than Marler this season, and he looks ready to make the step up. He may not have made it because he may have been struggling with injury, but Jones did pick Marler ahead of Genge for the Barbarians game, which along with Marler getting the nod on the bench gives a good indicator of the pecking order.

aye, Genge would appear to be behind Marler in the pecking order. I feel that he is a better scrummager than Mako (and more destructive than Marler but perhaps not as consistent) and better round the park than Marler. He would certainly fit the bill if an explosive finisher was needed. Yet I feel that with proper international exposure he would become a world class player very quickly (temprement and temper allowing). However I cannot see him getting that chance till after RWC19

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:39 pm

munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

We have oodles. Swap you for a lock ? (not a 6)

Yeah but yours are either permanently broken or currently unproven in internationals (and we have the latter already with both Currys, Willises and Underhill)

I'm going to put it out there that James Davies hasn't much left to prove.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I need to see more than two half decent appearances at international level from a guy who turns 28 this year.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:40 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
thomh wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:

Given that Eddie wasn't keen to introduce Marler last weekend I presume that he wanted impact and was hoping Mako after a sit down withof offer more than Marler fresh. Genge may have been struggling with the injury before the first test, it's only been confirmed he's gone for a scan this week.

What do you mean? Marler was already getting ready to come on before the sin-bin happened, and I'm pretty Mako never returned? May be wrong but I can't find any reference online.

I didn't think Mako returned either. Mako is on another planet to Marler at the moment.

I did hope to see Genge on the bench for the first test because he's been in much better form than Marler this season, and he looks ready to make the step up. He may not have made it because he may have been struggling with injury, but Jones did pick Marler ahead of Genge for the Barbarians game, which along with Marler getting the nod on the bench gives a good indicator of the pecking order.

aye, Genge would appear to be behind Marler in the pecking order. I feel that he is a better scrummager than Mako (and more destructive than Marler but perhaps not as consistent) and better round the park than Marler. He would certainly fit the bill if an explosive finisher was needed. Yet I feel that with proper international exposure he would become a world class player very quickly (temprement and temper allowing). However I cannot see him getting that chance till after RWC19

I would agree that Genge is probably worth giving a bit of exposure too to see how he develops, but I also agree we're unlikely to see it from Jones this side of the World Cup, which is a shame. 1 year and 11 caps is enough time to have a proper look at him, and we can always bring Marler back if Genge isn't performing at international level.

If he gets his chance, it will probably be through injury. If Mako or Marler gets injured for the autumn, which is a decent possibility given modern injury rates, then Genge might be given a prolonged chance.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:43 pm

Or banned?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 2:50 pm

Virtually all non-English pundits who have called this weekend's matches have predicted a South African win. I still think we have a decent chance. For al that throwing away a big lead last week was a gut punch, if you'd told me beforehand we would lose by three in a high scoring game, then that would have been a better outcome than I was expecting.


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:04 pm

If NZ had Genge...he'd have many caps already. Think they'd miss an opportunity to unleash a beast like him.

We're so backward, this England team and its coaches.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:07 pm

I think Ellis Genge should get as much exposure as possible.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:21 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:If NZ had Genge...he'd have many caps already. Think they'd miss an opportunity to unleash a beast like him.

We're so backward, this England team and its coaches.  

It has been a bit weird. Eddie took a punt on him in 2016 (against Wales in spring and on the Summer tour) despite limited game time for Tigers. However he was behind Mullan (in Marler's absence) and got just 15 minutes.

Named in the original EPS for 16/17 he missed out in the Autumn as Marler was back, and come 6Ns Nathan Catt was in the squad instead.

The Lions tour allowed him two starts against against Argentina, but come Autumn and the return of the Lions he missed out. (Well a bench spot against Argentina when Marler was banned again). Injury in December ruled him out of 6Ns chance.


In so many ways Mako seems to be the most important player for Eddie, even when he has been resting other players (Itoje/Farrell) he keeps rolling out Mako. With 5 lions starts Mako does deserve the faith that has been put in him, yet I still feel we have missed a chance to integrate a guy who could make a real difference in big games.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:22 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:If NZ had Genge...he'd have many caps already.
Even NZ can't select a player when he's injured. Genge has been hit by injury at bad times - now being the latest example.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:26 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If NZ had Genge...he'd have many caps already.
Even NZ can't select a player when he's injured. Genge has been hit by injury at bad times - now being the latest example.

Not all the time though RF. He has had chances to play him and has elected not to.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:28 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If NZ had Genge...he'd have many caps already. Think they'd miss an opportunity to unleash a beast like him.

We're so backward, this England team and its coaches.  

It has been a bit weird. Eddie took a punt on him in 2016 (against Wales in spring and on the Summer tour) despite limited game time for Tigers. However he was behind Mullan (in Marler's absence) and got just 15 minutes.

Named in the original EPS for 16/17 he missed out in the Autumn as Marler was back, and come 6Ns Nathan Catt was in the squad instead.

The Lions tour allowed him two starts against against Argentina, but come Autumn and the return of the Lions he missed out. (Well a bench spot against Argentina when Marler was banned again). Injury in December ruled him out of 6Ns chance.


In so many ways Mako seems to be the most important player for Eddie, even when he has been resting other players (Itoje/Farrell) he keeps rolling out Mako. With 5 lions starts Mako does deserve the faith that has been put in him, yet I still feel we have missed a chance to integrate a guy who could make a real difference in big games.

You have just described any number of players under Eddie Jones mate. I don't get why he does all this chaos. Picks a player then drops him out of site. Then drags him from obscurity again, then dumps him.

To be honest its a management style I really don't care for.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:39 pm


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:43 pm

Ill check that when I get in RF, anything interesting?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:55 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill check that when I get in RF, anything interesting?
Only that the decision to favour Shields over Robshaw was influenced by Bok selection of more lineout options, and the desire to do the same.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 4:27 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ill check that when I get in RF, anything interesting?
Only that the decision to favour Shields over Robshaw was influenced by Bok selection of more lineout options, and the desire to do the same.

I'm not really buying this. I suspect Eddie has told a different story behind doors ie you're not firing. To be totally dropped from the squad indicates a drop imo.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 4:46 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not really buying this. I suspect Eddie has told a different story behind doors ie you're not firing. To be totally dropped from the squad indicates a drop imo.
I think that's right. I suspect the lineout is a consideration but, even if it wasn't, then Robshaw was a candidate for the chop. One of the key roles Robshaw played during our unbeaten run, was cleaning up messy situations caused by poor handling, or loose tap-backs. He hasn't been able to impose that kind of control in the last two matches. Without that USP, then his other contributions are less impressive.

Jones must be working off what he sees as tour form to a certain extent. Isiekwe didn't impress but he hasn't turned to Hill, who apparently hasn't made a mark in training. Since both had good seasons for their clubs, it may well confirm Jones in his apparent belief that Premiership form is an unreliable guide to Test match readiness.

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Post by Yoda on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 8:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

We have oodles. Swap you for a lock ? (not a 6)

Yeah but yours are either permanently broken or currently unproven in internationals (and we have the latter already with both Currys, Willises and Underhill)

I'm going to put it out there that James Davies hasn't much left to prove.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I need to see more than two half decent appearances at international level from a guy who turns 28 this year.

Munkian the self appointed arch Bishop of banterbury. In answer to your question we don't need to buy any players just bring them home. There are probably more English players in the Welsh team than in England, isn't that right Geordie? Whistle

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 8:16 am

Think it's great to see Daly and sinckler get further starts. You need to give players a chance to bed in if they show they have the potential. Having said that it's nice to see what I'd consider our best lock pairing together.

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