England Summer Tour - Part 2

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England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 9:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 11:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by mid_gen on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 8:32 pm

There's a reason Lancaster didn't start him.....he's not good enough and doesn't have the mentality for big games.

It's not just him, but I don't know how many more times we need to see him bully weak teams, and go missing against decent ones. What are we learning here? Certainly not who our go to 10 is for the WC.

If we had a solid center pair I'd start Farrell there, but he's probably our best 12 at the moment, and Cips deserves a shot on last week's showing.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 9:11 pm

Cipriani may get a chance, but unless the pack front up will struggle.

My view on his ability to push England onwards on a regular basis mirror your beliefs on Ford. I suspect perhaps we are equally biased in our own way, but I feel that Cipriani is the master of the cameo who has failed to show, over a decade now, that he has the ability, brains or rugby intelligence to be the man we need.

Of course right now not even prime Dan Carter would thrive in our micro managed yet underpowered team. Robson especially deserves a chance, but if him and Cipriani play they need to play their own game and ignore the plan that Jones will send them out with.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:03 am

Eddies lost 8 of his last 9 games in charge of Australia....is history repeating itself?

Are the knives being sharpened. I honestly cant see anything else...he's failing miserably. Staff jumping ship...players arguing with fans, players looking utterly out on their feet, noise of an increasingly unhappy camp.

Can Eddie fix it? Im not sure he can.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by TightHEAD on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:30 am

I'm afraid England are like a sick, old, smelly dog, and we all know what happens next.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by carpet baboon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:37 am

Assuming SA win on Saturday and Eddie gets the chop, who realistically is there to take over?
Or who would your dream appointment be?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by SecretFly on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:47 am

England again the victim of it's own excesses? ...I mean excesses of resources (players).... and truly an excess of the need for excess (greed for Premiership to be tops when club rugby is played and vice versa when International is played.)?  

There can only be one genuine top dog in any Nation.  It's a choice.  Either International is the top dog and the entire rugby process in the Nation is geared to make it purr (like happens in New Zealand) or Club wins and International is designated the lesser important side salad.
But it's the fans that have to finally make that choice.  As an outsider looking in, there is always too much duplicity of allegiance in English fans.  Club season is seen as the most important thing until International seasons hit.

Are English players fed up of rugby right now and craving for a quiet holiday?  Excess amounts of rugby played in the premiership to soothe the need for excess number of 'big names' in each game that fans allegedly pay the money to see?

Pay the money to see your team win?  Pay the money to be witness to the next generation of great players rather than always demanding to see the current crop of 'superstars' play every club game?  Pay the money to see genuine academy development and these younger players being handed more responsibility in big games?
Then England might have more superstars still in love with non-compromising rugby right into June.

Just an observation.  And anyway, it could very well be just a blip and next year would be a very nice year to find a rich current of top form again, wouldn't it.  Maybe the English are just getting their downturn in at the very right time.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by TightHEAD on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:48 am

Eddie won't get the chop, but he may walk away.

To be honest Eddie isn't to blame for players having a brain fart and slapping ball out of the scrumhalf's hands.

Young's doesn't move the ball quickly enough, Ford kicks away turn over ball every time. The props need to learn to hold their ground in the scrum, dig in.

Silly penalties are killing all the momentum we build and when you have a easy 3 points opportunity at this level you take the points.

We lack on field leadership, maybe Shields should get the Captaincy?
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:55 am

I think we have to accept a new place in the world order for England for a while – 2nd is a distant past, we should just try to stay in the top 5. With another SA loss (sorry I mean game) to come and then the 3 SH teams in the AI we could easily be heading for a record number of losses – maybe Japan will save our blushes.

The T2 pack was arguably our best and it came out 2nd best, but possible improvements for the future:
Will Billy ever be fully fit again (see also Hughes) – maybe an extended break (no pun) from test rugby? It'd be good to find a carrying no 8 from somewhere.
Lawes in for the current Itoje.
Robshaw to regain form.
Re-learn that defending (a one-time strength) doesn’t mean giving away penalties – a coaching issue.

The back line, on the other hand, can definitely improve a bit: JJ back, FH agreed once and for all, Brown back to FB, progress on a 3rd SH. With Nowell & Watson fighting for places.
And a selection of finishers that really are finishers.

To replace EJ before the RWC would be a disaster, but past that we should be looking again.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:15 am

There's some irony in Gustard leaving to join Quins, as that team imploded during the season in a similar fashion to England (including Kingston having his contract renewed just before the wheels fell off)

My concern is that South Africa aren't the only side with a powerful set of forwards in international rugby these days. On current form, almost every Tier one side could probably do a job on our lot, and I don't know why that has come about.

We are looking as underpowered as we did at the last World Cup, which was often attributed to a misguided conditioning regime. It's not as if there's a shadow pack of gnarly forwards that we could field instead (with the possible exception of a player like Attwood). The players we are selecting in the front five are mostly regarded as the best we've got. While I still don't think we've identified our top scrummaging eight, it's probably going to be some combination of the players already in the frame.

It is odd that Mako and Itoje looked back to their best for Saracens at the end of the season but haven't carried that form into Tests. Smarter people than me will know whether we've got a game plan which isn't getting the best out of us, or if it's more a matter of altitude, fatigue, lack of trust in team mates etc

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:27 am

Not good enough for England. Just not good enough.

Looking at the players who aren't on tour, would Hartley, Cole, Kruis and Care really turn things around? Lawes is a miss. Nowell and Watson also good players who haven't been missed too much (the back 3 has looked good going forward). Would any other names be able to come in and make a difference? Would I be shouted at for saying Tuilagi?

The point is, Eddie Jones has pretty much the best available players out there with him - and for the Six Nations as well. It's not about the players he can bring in now, it's the coaching and the direction. The performances in 2018 have not been good enough.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by mid_gen on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:29 am

I would love to know who this coach is, the one waiting in the wings ready to take over from EJ.

Clamouring to sack him without any idea as to a replacement is idiotic.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:30 am

Rugby Fan wrote:It is odd that Mako and Itoje looked back to their best for Saracens at the end of the season but haven't carried that form into Tests. Smarter people than me will know whether we've got a game plan which isn't getting the best out of us, or if it's more a matter of altitude, fatigue, lack of trust in team mates etc

I think it is a variety of things much of which you mention. In addition to those points:

1 - Easier to shine at club level
2 - Saracens players are given individual responsibility within the overall team framework, while Eddie micromanages and insists on players doing it his way.
3 - Breakdown. We struggle to present clean quick ball, or to slow down opposition ball
4 - We are not working hard enough off the ball either in defence or in attack. Too often players are making "poor" decisions because there is insufficient support available to make any other decision.
5 - No enjoyment. As an example Jonny May has been in good form, usually plays and trains with a huge grin on his face yet is looking as miserable as sin on this tour. Obviously losing does not help, but they do seem a glum bunch right now. Perhaps some dwarf throwing is needed?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:32 am

The buck stops with Eddie and his coaching team im afraid.

All the other teams on tour have taken a "development" squad and given key Lions players etc complete rest. And I don't really care if South Africa is a tough venue to send a raw side...

What has Eddie done, he's picked the same lot and is driving them in to the ground. Players like Hughes who has been rushed back twice from injury and looks a shadow of the player who was rampaging in the prem. Billy V..rushed back and oh look...out again.

Mako looks shattered.
Farrell looks frustrated as anything
Itoje - the intelligent rugby player looks bottom of the class at the moment.
Jamie George - he's never shown the form in an England shirt that saw everyone shouting for it.

Forwards look slow, fat and ponderous and weak!

It all boils down to the coaching. His tanker is steering precariously off course and its going to take a huge effort to get it back on track!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by TightHEAD on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:44 am

Borthwick and Hatley have to go or buck their ideas up.

RFU Give Edwards a call and pay the man ££££££s.......
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:47 am

If we keep up our collective chest beating and wailing we may well need a third thread before the next test Very Happy


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by TightHEAD on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:50 am

Maybe, but do we need a third Test?
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:58 am

Some of you lot need to read some kipling and take a breath!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:01 pm

Can I eat some Kipling instead? After all he does make exceedingly good cakes (well he doesn't, but that spoils the narrative)

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:22 pm

As long as yure having a cuppa and relaxing. I fear for people's blood pressure here!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:32 pm

Im going to make myself a cuppa and have a slice of exceedingly good cake.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:49 pm

Good. Remember how much moaning there was over dean Richards and now he's up there with the best again. But without the blood.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:50 pm

The one thing that makes me doubt eddie jones right now is that his namesake stephen at the times wants him to continue.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:52 pm

Oh he's not quite the best yet 7.5.

I also think we're entitled to have a moan. If there was decent performances people wouldn't necessarily mind the defeats. But its simply not. At times the conduct of some of the players has been embarrassing.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The one thing that makes me doubt eddie jones right now is that his namesake stephen at the times wants him to continue.

Aye, but Stuart Barnes wants to sack him which works in Eddie's favour.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:28 pm

Uncharacteristic mistakes from previously consistent players...Robshaw, Brown
Players making silly decisions.....Itoje pen count

There are others that I have missed but all seem as a result of fatigue. I know there have been rest periods but they may not address the long term 'battle fatigue' issues.
I don't think that they got the tactics wrong for the SA tour (they certainly did in the 6N).

Mako V. looked like he had nothing left in the tank when he came off in the 2nd test. He's now been sent home for family reasons - so perhaps there is a problem and his head wasn't in the right place.

Billy V also sent home with another broken arm! Anyone know if its the same injury he's had before?

What I am trying to get at is, do we need to arrange a prolonged period of rest for the players in the run up to the 2019 WC?
(Preferably not in EJ's high intensity training camps too).
Wasn't there something in place before the '15 WC?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:29 pm

mid_gen wrote:I would love to know who this coach is, the one waiting in the wings ready to take over from EJ.

Clamouring to sack him without any idea as to a replacement is idiotic.

I'm personally not saying there's anyone better to come in and do the job and I would keep Eddie on after this series. But Eddie Jones should be doing a better job with what he has available. He needs to consider whether his methods are best and if not change them, before the RFU decide they need to change him.

He needs to get the team to start winning, and if it doesn't happen next week then the pressure will really be on to deliver at home and then home-and-away in the Six Nations. After last Six Nations and this series, I'd say he's one further poor series away from the chop.

He could end up winning the World Cup, but we can't get too myopic in our view of the four-year cycle. His stated aim was to go into the World Cup as the best team in the World and then to win the Cup. It would take some extremely convoluted ranking permutations to achieve that now and really it's not going to happen. He's failed in the first half his goal. As soon as we decide he's less likely than someone else to fulfil the second half of his goal, then it's time to look elsewhere.

Teams often get initial good results as part of a "new coach bounce". Just look at Eddie Jones himself in 2016 or Erasmus in this series. If we don't improve and want to bring in a new coach at the end of the 2018/19 season, personally it doesn't matter to me that their first assignment would be a World Cup. Because this England team as they're currently playing wouldn't get past the quarter finals.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:31 pm

England's biggest problems are not listening to the ref, and picking Owen Farrell at 12 all the time.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:33 pm

That sums It up pretty much spot on Robbo.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:33 pm

Teams also seem to have a ''re-signed coach blip''. I have noticed a few occasions where there has been a dip in form when management re-signes for longer periods in charge.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:England's biggest problems are not listening to the ref, and picking Owen Farrell at 12 all the time.

That's because we don't have any other 12's.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:39 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Uncharacteristic mistakes from previously consistent players...Robshaw, Brown
Players making silly decisions.....Itoje pen count

There are others that I have missed but all seem as a result of fatigue.  I know there have been rest periods but they may not address the long term 'battle fatigue' issues.  
I don't think that they got the tactics wrong for the SA tour (they certainly did in the 6N).  

Mako V.  looked like he had nothing left in the tank when he came off in the 2nd test. He's now been sent home for family reasons - so perhaps there is a problem and his head wasn't in the right place.  

Billy V also sent home with another broken arm! Anyone know if its the same injury he's had before?

What I am trying to get at is, do we need to arrange a prolonged period of rest for the players in the run up to the 2019 WC?
(Preferably not in EJ's high intensity training camps too).  
Wasn't there something in place before the '15 WC?

Well the players will break up in May 2019 and won't be called into serious action until we face Tonga on 22 September. The intervening 3 and a half months will all be about getting them into the best condition, with a combination of rest, training and warm-up fixtures. I think Eddie and his team of sports-scientists should be able to prepare the team sufficiently in that time, including by giving them appropriate rest time. Injuries aside, there is no excuse for players not being in their absolute peak physical condition for the World Cup.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:England's biggest problems are not listening to the ref, and picking Owen Farrell at 12 all the time.

That's because we don't have any other 12's.

Seriously ????

One of the biggest rugby nations in the world does not have any 12's ?

Billy Twelvetrees
Luther Burrell
Henry Slade
Elliot Daly

All the above could do a better job in my opinion.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:53 pm

Burrell was tried a different failed miserably at this level. Twelvetrees form is hit and miss and certainly not good enough to put him in the international picture. Slade has got a run in the side and is showing nothing to suggest he should remain there. Daly isn't a 12, 13 sometimes at Wasps, and looks like he'll be back on the wing by the AIs.

12 is a problem position for England with no answer really presenting itself currently.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:53 pm

Your having a laugh now LD..

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:53 pm

I would like to think so Robbo - but wasn't there an admission somewhere post 6N that they got their conditioning wrong for the kind of game they wanted to play (or ended up playing).

Same could be said of the '15 WC side.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Your having a laugh now LD..

Why ?

From watching England, Owen Farrell is an obvious weak link in the backs, he is not solid enough in defence to play at center, neither is he quick enough, I also thought this when he was playing for the Lions. He will tackle, and he will hold on, but the opposition player will always drag him over the gain line, very rarely does he stop his player at the point of the tackle. England should either play him at 10, or not at all.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:01 pm


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:02 pm

By listing...

Twelvtrees, Burrell, and Daly as options at 12.
Twevletrees tried and tested...woeful
Burrell tried and tested...woeful
Daly is a 13 now and again for Wasps but is mostly a wing or FB (currently being trialed in SA)

Slade is seemingly now a 13 only...that's where e plays for Exeter.

England have had a void at 12 since Greenwood left...and its never been filled.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:17 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:By listing...

Twelvtrees, Burrell, and Daly as options at 12.
Twevletrees tried and tested...woeful
Burrell tried and tested...woeful
Daly is a 13 now and again for Wasps but is mostly a wing or FB (currently being trialed in SA)

Slade is seemingly now a 13 only...that's where e plays for Exeter.

England have had a void at 12 since Greenwood left...and its never been filled.

And you can add another to that list.

Owen Farrell tried and tested...not good enough.

England must have better options, it's a shame really, as I think Owen Farrell is a good 10.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:22 pm

Maybe, maybe not.

But all the others have been injury wrecked or not made the promise.

Its not a secret LD...its been a problem position for a long time.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:23 pm

In all honesty maybe he does need to put Farrell back at 10 for a while and play some very basic rugby to try and steady the ship.

But you still have the problem of who to put in at 12.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:25 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maybe, maybe not.

But all the others have been injury wrecked or not made the promise.

Its not a secret LD...its been a problem position for a long time.

Yet everyone and their dog over your side of the bridge was telling us that he start for the Lions. Owen Farrell is not an international standard 12.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:28 pm

Not at the moment...but then you could say that about so many through this run.
You weren't on here saying that he wasn't when we were going through the big win run.

The players are shot...they need a break and to completely recharge the batteries.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Welshmushroom on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:34 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:The buck stops with Eddie and his coaching team im afraid.

All the other teams on tour have taken a "development" squad and given key Lions players etc complete rest. And I don't really care if South Africa is a tough venue to send a raw side...

What has Eddie done, he's picked the same lot and is driving them in to the ground. Players like Hughes who has been rushed back twice from injury and looks a shadow of the player who was rampaging in the prem. Billy V..rushed back and oh look...out again.

Mako looks shattered.
Farrell looks frustrated as anything
Itoje - the intelligent rugby player looks bottom of the class at the moment.
Jamie George - he's never shown the form in an England shirt that saw everyone shouting for it.

Forwards look slow, fat and ponderous and weak!

It all boils down to the coaching. His tanker is steering precariously off course and its going to take a huge effort to get it back on track!

Probably unfair for Itoje to have been as rated as he was. No arguing his first season and a half in international rugby he was on fire. That said most people dip badly at that level in the second year. Jaime Roberts was the same until he found his feet playing at that level. I think Itoje will probably turn out to be a very fine international player but I do think some fans and pundits are pressuring his performances. Leave the guy alone and stop building him up so much and you will probably have a world 15 lock on your hands one day. Personally I don't think he's quite there yet. Assuming the English media don't dismantle any remaining confidence he has and his international career with it.

I cant argue with your general sentiment but I do think the issue is wider than just Eddie Jones. In truth as other posters have mentioned outside of his selections there just isn't a massive playing pool to pick from. England have deeper root causes that underpin this. The problem is how can they address this? I'm not sure they can given the nature of the PRL in all of this.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:35 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not at the moment...but then you could say that about so many through this run.
You weren't on here saying that he wasn't when we were going through the big win run.

The players are shot...they need a break and to completely recharge the batteries.

Yes I was.

I will admit though, I had him down as a test starter at 10 for the Lions. But by the time the tour was about half way through I wanted him dropped for Dan Biggar, with Sexton starting, but low an behold he ended up playing 12, when there were far superior players on tour in that position.

Even when England were on their run, I did not rate Farrell at 12. It's because of other players form dipping that England are struggling, they are no longer covering up for his inadequacies and he is now sticking out like a sore thumb more than ever. He needs to play at 10, and find some more form and confidence, he is deadly accurate from the kicking tee. Farrell is a far superior 10 than 12.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:41 pm

I don't think he's as bad a 12 as your making out. Don't forget he's a 10 who is playing at 12 out of position to help the team.

The whole team are shot and need help in a big way.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by BamBam on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:45 pm

Anyone who thinks Luther Burrell is a better option at 12 than Owen Farrell needs to get their head checked for concussion symptoms

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:47 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't think he's as bad a 12 as your making out. Don't forget he's a 10 who is playing at 12 out of position to help the team.

The whole team are shot and need help in a big way.

I don't think the whole team is shot, not by a margin. If Wales were playing England this weekend, I would not be confident. I just think that the forwards are not fit enough, the game has evolved over the past 18 months or so. Forwards are getting about the park a lot more. Ireland's forwards did not look so sluggish on Saturday, neither did ours (Wales), perhaps we are doing something different, I do not know.

But I honestly think that Farrell at 12 is not the answer for your guys, everybody else needs to do extra in defence when he playing in the center, perhaps that's why the forwards looked so out of puff on the weekend.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:53 pm

I think 99% of England fans would agree Farrell is not the answer at 12. But he is the answer when we don't have any other options.

I think many of the key players In this side are shot. They need a break or managed carefully. Brutal high intensity training sessions are good to a point but need to be balanced with intelligent training also. Is that being carried out in the England camp. All you hear is how hard the training is.

All the Saracens lads for example have had European cup finals, Prem finals, Lions tours, 6n, etc etc all back to back. That's an awful lot of rugby.

Its no wonder the likes of George, Mako, Itoje etc aren't at the races.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:All the Saracens lads for example have had European cup finals, Prem finals, Lions tours, 6n, etc etc all back to back. That's an awful lot of rugby.

Its no wonder the likes of George, Mako, Itoje etc aren't at the races.

You say that as if they are the only ones. Scarlets & Leinster have had more finals than those boys, yet they do not look as shot. Rob Evans was everywhere on Saturday, as was James Davies. Cardiff Blues were in a final, yet their players seemed alright on Saturday.

I am not saying that they do not need a rest, all I am saying is, that some of these excuses, are just that excuses. I think the forwards are looking knackered because the backs are not putting a shift in.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

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