England Summer Tour - Part 2

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England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 9:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 11:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:11 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think many of the key players In this side are shot. They need a break or managed carefully. Brutal high intensity training sessions are good to a point but need to be balanced with intelligent training also. Is that being carried out in the England camp. All you hear is how hard the training is.

You would hope that there is proper review of the effectiveness of the training, and tailoring it for indivduals as well as flexing it through the year. Compared to Ireland our players most definitely are over-played - yet Jones likes to boast that the training is harder than the games - thus would we actually rest players by playing them less - or would they just get beasted more in training.

Cannot remember who it was, Dai Young maube, who stated that clubs now average just 4hrs a week of full contact training as the bodies need to rest. England do that every single day in camps.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:21 pm

Ld proving his level of rugby knowledge in talking down Farrell!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:25 pm

This tour has been too much at the end of two gruelling seasons. It was put in to get money instead of development to the detriment of the team and their reputation. Who ever arranged it needs their heads examined. Issues include:
1. playing injured/ tired players
2. Hooking young players
3. Selecting players out of position
4. Conditioning at sea level and flying in too early so neither accepted practice for playing at altitude adhered to.
5. Media handling before during and probably after.
6. Discipline within the five core values (I'd rather lose and preserve the core values, than win at all costs)
7. South Africa away is not an easy place to go especially when they are resurgent.

The sooner this tour is over the better. Get home lick our wounds and calm down a bit if we can. I do think though the fall out from this is only just beginning.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:26 pm

OK, nice talking and debating with you guys on here. Some real proper rugby talk, thanks. OK

But No 7&1/2 is here now, so I am going to leave it alone.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:27 pm

Yay. Thank goodness.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:All the Saracens lads for example have had European cup finals, Prem finals, Lions tours, 6n, etc etc all back to back. That's an awful lot of rugby.

Its no wonder the likes of George, Mako, Itoje etc aren't at the races.

You say that as if they are the only ones. Scarlets & Leinster have had more finals than those boys, yet they do not look as shot. Rob Evans was everywhere on Saturday, as was James Davies. Cardiff Blues were in a final, yet their players seemed alright on Saturday.

I am not saying that they do not need a rest, all I am saying is, that some of these excuses, are just that excuses. I think the forwards are looking knackered because the backs are not putting a shift in.

It would be interesting to see a comparison of games played over the last few seasons.

Of course there is the argument that the Saracens players have looked very good playing for Saracens in the later part of the season...so is it a tactics issue?


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:30 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I would like to think so Robbo - but wasn't there an admission somewhere post 6N that they got their conditioning wrong for the kind of game they wanted to play (or ended up playing).  

Same could be said of the '15 WC side.  

Perhaps didn't word it too well. They have enough time to give players sufficient rest and then build their fitness back up. If they get the programme wrong, then the players won't be in the right condition. But that would be their failing, it wouldn't be a time issue or because the players have played too much for clubs/Lions/whomever else.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I think many of the key players In this side are shot. They need a break or managed carefully. Brutal high intensity training sessions are good to a point but need to be balanced with intelligent training also. Is that being carried out in the England camp. All you hear is how hard the training is.  

You would hope that there is proper review of the effectiveness of the training, and tailoring it for indivduals as well as flexing it through the year. Compared to Ireland our players most definitely are over-played - yet Jones likes to boast that the training is harder than the games - thus would we actually rest players by playing them less - or would they just get beasted more in training.

Cannot remember who it was, Dai Young maube, who stated that clubs now average just 4hrs a week of full contact training as the bodies need to rest. England do that every single day in camps.

You would hope its all monitored correctly etc. But all I ever seem to hear coming out of camp is what you've mentioned...beasting here beasting there, injuries through judo, horror fitness sessions here and there. Im pretty sure that's not the answer.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:37 pm

I'm not sure training is to blame here.we didn't play well on saturday but that and Ireland apart we haven't looked 2nd best. You could say we should age been training at altitude but given it takes 2 to 3 weeks for that to pay off would it have helped much? Some little errors here and there have cost us but honestly so what. People are in the doldrums for no real reason.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ld proving his level of rugby knowledge in talking down Farrell!

But LD DOES make a good case. Farrell is a 10 who is a make shift 12. We've all said it. I think he's done very good considering that, but he's getting really frustrated at the moment.

We don't have any top class 12's coming through. All of them just get injured or don't make the promise they show.

Where is the next big hope at 12? Nowhere to be seen.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not sure training is to blame here.we didn't play well on saturday but that and Ireland apart we haven't looked 2nd best. You could say we should age been training at altitude but given it takes 2 to 3 weeks for that to pay off would it have helped much? Some little errors here and there have cost us but honestly so what. People are in the doldrums for no real reason.

I wish I felt the same 7.5 but unfortunately to me its clear theres a big problem in camp.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:47 pm

He really doesn't geordie. Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby. His limited input is basically calling for brad barritt to play.

What big problem is this in the camp. We should have he first test we could have won 2 of the tests in the 6 nations quite easily. There's was an embarrassing mistake from the officials at the week end which cold have made thins tighter there. Fine lines.in international rugby don't see a huge lot to.change things round.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:All the Saracens lads for example have had European cup finals, Prem finals, Lions tours, 6n, etc etc all back to back. That's an awful lot of rugby.

Its no wonder the likes of George, Mako, Itoje etc aren't at the races.

You say that as if they are the only ones. Scarlets & Leinster have had more finals than those boys, yet they do not look as shot. Rob Evans was everywhere on Saturday, as was James Davies. Cardiff Blues were in a final, yet their players seemed alright on Saturday.

I am not saying that they do not need a rest, all I am saying is, that some of these excuses, are just that excuses. I think the forwards are looking knackered because the backs are not putting a shift in.

It would be interesting to see a comparison of games played over the last few seasons.

Of course there is the argument that the Saracens players have looked very good playing for Saracens in the later part of the season...so is it a tactics issue?

I do believe there is an element of burnout - but yes, a player having a poor February/March, great April/May and then a poor June is not the pattern you'd associate with a burned out player.

As LT (I believe) said, it's easier to look like you're playing really well at club level. Turn in your 8/10 club performance and you'll look 5/10 on the international stage. So burnout could play a factor in that the players who previously raised their game for England and the Lions don't have the reserves to hit those peaks, and are just plodding along at the same level (which is good for club level, not good for International). Especially as Yoda says on a tough tour with altitude protocol not correctly followed.

The training must also be an issue. Training hard definitely takes its toll - and all the stories are about how hard they train. I do much more gym and fitness work in the offseason when I don't have to worry about playing on Saturdays than I do in season - and I do a fraction of the amount of training they do. If I tried to do my offseason routine during the season to bring about strength and fitness gains, there's no way I'd be able to play anywhere near my best each week, yet it sounds like that's what these players are doing. Lots of fitness and gym work, lots of contact stuff, and the players aren't looking fitter or stronger because of it - the opposite is in fact true.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby.

Laugh


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by carpet baboon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He really doesn't geordie. Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby. His limited input is basically calling for brad barritt to play.

What big problem is this in the camp. We should have he first test we could have won 2 of the tests in the 6 nations quite easily. There's was an embarrassing mistake from the officials at the week end which cold have made thins tighter there. Fine lines.in international rugby don't see a huge lot to.change things round.

Farrell is a great player but is he balls the best 12 in international rugby.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:54 pm

Looking around I don't see many challenging that carpet.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:55 pm

Thought you'd run off ld?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by carpet baboon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:55 pm

Just from this weekend I would have Beal, crotty and henshaw above him

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:55 pm

I cant agree with that 7.5. Farrell isn't the best 12 in international rugby. Hes done well considering hes a 10 being forced to play 12 to accommodate Ford.

In camp...well, players being rushed back from injuries, constant injuries due to the high intensity training, players arguing with fans (shows huge frustration), players walking out mid interview, defensive frailties and tactical naivety on the pitch ...I can go on.

Its a multitude of things.

Maybe they just all need to go off on holiday , come back fresh and regroup.

But theres a team in Black looming in the AI's....


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He really doesn't geordie. Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby. His limited input is basically calling for brad barritt to play.

What big problem is this in the camp. We should have he first test we could have won 2 of the tests in the 6 nations quite easily. There's was an embarrassing mistake from the officials at the week end which cold have made thins tighter there. Fine lines.in international rugby don't see a huge lot to.change things round.

I agree we shouldn't be getting hung up on individual wins or losses, but there is enough too add together in 2018 to cause concern.

Ignoring the irrelevant Barbarians game, we're 2/7 for the year. We have lost in France, Scotland and SA twice, as well as a home game against Ireland. Any one of those defeats in a close game is fine, you can brush it off and move on. 5 defeats with the performances we've put in is not.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:58 pm

Fair enough carpet. I agree picking a team of the week personally sees me picking different people each week. I'm tending to look long term.

Who is better and why geordie.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by hugehandoff on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:58 pm

EJs gambled on getting the England bandwagon back on the road by bringing a number of players who would have greatly benefited from a summer off. Flogging Itoje and Mako and risking Billy makes little sense. If he had taken the Armands and Attwoods instead I don't think we would have lost much overall and longer term we would have benefited. A sensible blend was required and those who have not started much for England like Sinckler and George are fine, but others have been below their best for some time.

When he took over from Lancaster he spoke about the benefits an experienced head coach brings, but his decision making this year has been very poor.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by BamBam on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby.

Laugh


Seeing as you think Burrell is a superior 12, I think its safe to send you at least 5 laughs in return Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:00 pm

And like I said robbo..Probably should have got some more from those games.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by carpet baboon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough carpet. I agree picking a team of the week personally sees me picking different people each week. I'm tending to look long term.

Who is better and why geordie.

Long term he's a world class 10. He's an above average international 12. Nothing more

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:06 pm

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby.

Laugh


Seeing as you think Burrell is a superior 12, I think its safe to send you at least 5 laughs in return Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

Where have I said that ? Or is it just you being obnoxious again ?

At least Burrell is actually a center.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:08 pm

Well ill start with Toomua who isn't even playing international rugby at the moment. He's head and tails above Farrell as a 12. When fit hes the best 12 in world rugby simple as that.

I think Henshaw is a very good 12. Crotty is good.

Hell even Ntamack the French U20 12 looks a hell of a player.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:All the Saracens lads for example have had European cup finals, Prem finals, Lions tours, 6n, etc etc all back to back. That's an awful lot of rugby.

Its no wonder the likes of George, Mako, Itoje etc aren't at the races.

You say that as if they are the only ones. Scarlets & Leinster have had more finals than those boys, yet they do not look as shot. Rob Evans was everywhere on Saturday, as was James Davies. Cardiff Blues were in a final, yet their players seemed alright on Saturday.

I am not saying that they do not need a rest, all I am saying is, that some of these excuses, are just that excuses. I think the forwards are looking knackered because the backs are not putting a shift in.

It would be interesting to see a comparison of games played over the last few seasons.

Of course there is the argument that the Saracens players have looked very good playing for Saracens in the later part of the season...so is it a tactics issue?

2017/18 Total minutes played:

Farrell 2,452 v Sexton 1,434
Mako 1,795 v Healy 814
Itoje 2,315 v Henderson 1,790


The Irish are the best at protecting their players, helped by the structure of their game - so the above comparison should be no surprise. Sexton featured in 4 regular season Pro14 games, Farrel in 13 regular season AP games. There is an issue with player welfare at the elite level in England - and both clubs and England are to blame. While a top down structure is not the right way to go for the English game, I would be open to them discussing proper central contracts for EPS players. If these guys were fully payed for by England and then released free of charge to their clubs it would cause a variety of issues but could be a workable solution.


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:15 pm

How would you know hes a world class 10. Not played there for England in a long time whereas he's been instrumental at 12 for us. Shortlisted for world player etc.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:16 pm

Right were naming under 20 centres as better than Farrell. Come off it geordie.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:18 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:All the Saracens lads for example have had European cup finals, Prem finals, Lions tours, 6n, etc etc all back to back. That's an awful lot of rugby.

Its no wonder the likes of George, Mako, Itoje etc aren't at the races.

You say that as if they are the only ones. Scarlets & Leinster have had more finals than those boys, yet they do not look as shot. Rob Evans was everywhere on Saturday, as was James Davies. Cardiff Blues were in a final, yet their players seemed alright on Saturday.

I am not saying that they do not need a rest, all I am saying is, that some of these excuses, are just that excuses. I think the forwards are looking knackered because the backs are not putting a shift in.

It would be interesting to see a comparison of games played over the last few seasons.

Of course there is the argument that the Saracens players have looked very good playing for Saracens in the later part of the season...so is it a tactics issue?

2017/18 Total minutes played:

Farrell 2,452 v Sexton 1,434
Mako 1,795 v Healy 814
Itoje 2,315 v Henderson 1,790


The Irish are the best at protecting their players, helped by the structure of their game - so the above comparison should be no surprise. Sexton featured in 4 regular season Pro14 games, Farrel in 13 regular season AP games. There is an issue with player welfare at the elite level in England - and both clubs and England are to blame. While a top down structure is not the right way to go for the English game, I would be open to them discussing proper central contracts for EPS players. If these guys were fully payed for by England and then released free of charge to their clubs it would cause a variety of issues but could be a workable solution.


That's quite a difference isn't it LT...

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:19 pm

You literally wrote that burrell was better ld. You wonder why people get at you.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Right were naming under 20 centres as better than Farrell.  Come off it geordie.

Ok that was a bit daft.

But all seriousness. Farrell has been great, considering he's being forced to play out of position. He's not the best 12 in international rugby...or rugby. He's struggling now because the team is struggling and he's getting seriously peed off as he wants to win badly.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You literally wrote that burrell was better ld. You wonder why people get at you.

Take a look:-

LordDowlais wrote:Seriously ????

One of the biggest rugby nations in the world does not have any 12's ?

Billy Twelvetrees
Luther Burrell
Henry Slade
Elliot Daly

All the above could do a better job in my opinion.


Now go on read it. Then apologise. All the above could do a better job in my opinion is not me saying they are all superior.

It is typical of you as always to turn a debate into a p1ss1ng contest. Rolling Eyes

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:26 pm

Farrell has done a decent job at 12. Good enough to play there for the Lions in two tests just last summer.

However he is a 10 playing out of position at 12. He plays at 10 week in week out for his club (too often actually but I detailed that earlier). He is playing at 12 because of a lack of other options. That he is doing it to a credible standard is a huge plus for us. To be honest he may be a better 12 than 10 at international level, but when did we last see a run of games from him at 10 to know?

Since the World Cup he has played 3 isolated internationals at 10, once each in 2018, 2017 (for Lions) and 2016. even then he only made a handful of starts at 10 since 2014.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by BamBam on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You literally wrote that burrell was better ld. You wonder why people get at you.

Take a look:-

LordDowlais wrote:Seriously ????

One of the biggest rugby nations in the world does not have any 12's ?

Billy Twelvetrees
Luther Burrell
Henry Slade
Elliot Daly

All the above could do a better job in my opinion.


Now go on read it. Then apologise. All the above could do a better job in my opinion is not me saying they are all superior.

It is typical of you as always to turn a debate into a p1ss1ng contest. Rolling Eyes

Oh wow

You really are dense

Better and superior are synonyms (LD, synonyms are words that mean the same thing)


Last edited by BamBam on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:28 pm

The problem LD is that those you listed probably couldn't do a better job. And in two of those cases it has actually been proven.

Of the 4 only Slade could still be trialled. But as he's not sparkling on this tour at 13...its questionable how he would go at 12.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem LD is that those you listed probably couldn't do a better job. And in two of those cases it has actually been proven.

Of the 4 only Slade could still be trialled. But as he's not sparkling on this tour at 13...its questionable how he would go at 12.  

At least they can tackle. Which is the main job of a center. Tackling is Farrell's main weakness in my opinion. Yes he holds on, but for the most, he gets carried about 5 or ten yards with every tackle he makes, he also seems to get tackled quite easily. The fact he was picked in that position for the Lions was criminal.

Perhaps, if he was to be the 12 that No 7&1/2 and BamBam thinks he is, then perhaps he should be doing less practice at place kicking, and more on his defence.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:35 pm

Jebus ld. Doubling down. I think Farrell could be even better should Tuilagi ever ever come back to the fore. Sigh. Can but dream.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem LD is that those you listed probably couldn't do a better job. And in two of those cases it has actually been proven.

Of the 4 only Slade could still be trialled. But as he's not sparkling on this tour at 13...its questionable how he would go at 12.  

At least they can tackle. Which is the main job of a center. Tackling is Farrell's main weakness in my opinion. Yes he holds on, but for the most, he gets carried about 5 or ten yards with every tackle he makes, he also seems to get tackled quite easily. The fact he was picked in that position for the Lions was criminal.

Perhaps, if he was to be the 12 that No 7&1/2 and BamBam thinks he is, then perhaps he should be doing less practice at place kicking, and more on his defence.

I think your ignoring the fact he usual has to cope with Fords lack of defensive prowess. Farrell is a decent tackler...but its not also about 1 person. Its those around you aswell.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Right were naming under 20 centres as better than Farrell.  Come off it geordie.

Speaking of Under-20s centres, it's worth noting that England Under-20s were playing two fly-halves at 10/12 in the most recent tournament.

Since Owen Farrell wore the 12 shirt in our 2011 loss to NZ, we've reached the final 6 times. The players wearing 12 were:

Sam Hill
Harry Sloan
Max Clark
Johnny Williams
Jacob Umaga
Tom Hardwick

Sam Hill has had a sniff but no more. Any prospect of any of these guys going on to play 12 for England?

It's worth noting that of all the players to play in the last 3 finals, none have broken through for England. Going back to 2015, Genge, Hill and Ewels have a handful of caps between them. You have to go back as far as Itoje in 2014 for the last Under-20s success story.

There's time for all of them still, but you'd think a few more would have broken in by now. Marchant, Mallinder, Mercer and Earl have come closest.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:41 pm

Are there a lot of NEQ players playing at 12 in the AVIVA ?

I only ask because I cannot fathom how England have such a lack of options for the position.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:42 pm

So you don't know who qualifies but say there's a lack of options. Those 2 things don't really go together.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:44 pm

I think it's case of not needing to rush players through robbo. We haven't got anyone reallong pushing it age wise bar haskell brown. One has been phases out for underhill curry. The other now for Daly with Watson nowell coming back for the wing spot.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:44 pm

Do you want to debate like an adult or just keep this nonsense up No 7&1/2 ?

It's not me saying England do not have the options by the way. Rolling Eyes

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No9 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:45 pm




Uncle Eddie has to go NOW!!!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No9 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Do you want to debate like an adult or just keep this nonsense up No 7&1/2 ?

It's not me saying England do not have the options by the way. Rolling Eyes

Don't know why you keep arguing with him LD... On Saturday, he made up/referenced a quote which I'm supposed to have made. I didn't have a clue what he was talking about, as it was a figment of his imagination, then when I asked for clarification he kept skirting it making out it was me in the wrong. He lives in his own fantasy world... feel sorry for him really.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:53 pm

I have had him on ignore for most of the time, but I have spent some time away from this place as members like him just spoil it. I have come back, tried to start again, but he still stinks up the place with his deluded nonsense.

No wonder this place gets as empty as a cathedral nowadays. Rolling Eyes

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No9 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I have had him on ignore for most of the time, but I have spent some time away from this place as members like him just spoil it. I have come back, tried to start again, but he still stinks up the place with his deluded nonsense.

No wonder this place gets as empty as a cathedral nowadays. Rolling Eyes

Totally agree...

Think its time for a summer break myself. See if this site gets any better next season (doubt it will... Smile)

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 5:09 pm

Depends how much more nonsense you come put with ld.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

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