England Summer Tour - Part 2

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England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 3:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 5:02 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:11 am

You lot tend to come back if you think england are suffering or wales are on the up. May not see you 2 for a while!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by BamBam on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:12 am

What a loss to the forum that would be!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:16 am

As a positive twist. How good has may been. Simply fantastic.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:17 pm

Rugby writer Ali Stokes often says England are missing a trick by not looking at Mark Atkinson of Gloucester as an alternative playmaking and gain-line busting option to Farrell at 12. He is 6'5" and around 100kg, so has the size. No idea if he has the talent.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:31 pm

By the way, I have been on Johannesburg for the last week and change, leaving tomorrow, and I am getting sick of watching 'highlights' of the Boks-England.

And another point, who can play 13 if Slade is benched?
Are there any runners left to play in the centres?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As a positive twist. How good has May been. Simply fantastic.

Agreed, though seen a few pundits stating he will be dropped when Watson and Nowell are fit.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:39 pm

doctor_grey wrote:And another point, who can play 13 if Slade is benched?
Daly can play outside centre - some think it's his best position - while Lozowski is another option, and arguably outplayed Slade at the end of the season.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:42 pm

Lozowski would be the option. Daly impressed for me on saturday and needs that run of games. Personally I'd start slade but have lozowski on the bench as he's massively quick.

A backline of may Watson Daly. For me at present that's what I'd go for.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Are there a lot of NEQ players playing at 12 in the AVIVA ?

I only ask because I cannot fathom how England have such a lack of options for the position.

Got me thinking, players around the clubs. I actually think Slade would be a better 12 than thirteen where you ideally need pace (Although Jonathan Davies has been getting away with it for years !) Teo, Tuilagi, Devoto, Hill even Barritt could still do a job at 12. Then there are the slightly younger ones like Mallinder, Marchant, Lozowski and Wales were sniffing around Max Clark not that long ago too.
I always thought Twelevetrees was asked to take on too much at 12 for England resulting in not achieving any consistency too. Never rated Burrell. All in all not a brilliant return.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:23 pm

Still not full of enthusiasm over the choices.  Daly could be the best of the current bunch at 13.  We start a back three of May, Brown, Solomona?  

And should Eddie replace Ford with Cipriani?????

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 1:51 pm

I wouldn't want to see Daly moved when he starts to look like the attacking full back a lot have been calling for though.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 2:15 pm

The 12 spot doesn't have to be a big creative player if we have that at 10 and 13.

Atkinson is mentioned above is actually a good example. If you five him a basic role to be as physical as possible and smash holes where he can that's what we are missing. He doesn't need to be world class...he needs to be effective in the role he's given.

I firmly believe England are misisng that type of player at the moment. A physical fulcrum that the skilled players can play off.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Mr Bounce on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 3:45 pm

Theo Brophy-Clews was another who played 12 for the U20s. He is currently with London Irish but listed as a 10. However, a big chunker of a 12 he is not...

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:The 12 spot doesn't have to be a big creative player if we have that at 10 and 13.

Atkinson is mentioned above is actually a good example. If you five him a basic role to be as physical as possible and smash holes where he can that's what we are missing. He doesn't need to be world class...he needs to be effective in the role he's given.

I firmly believe England are misisng that type of player at the moment. A physical fulcrum that the skilled players can play off.

Actually Geordie I was hoping that Williams would kick on at LI. There's a hard running centre that'll do the dirty work to get his team on the front foot. Hopefully the Falcons coaching staff will get the most out of him and make sure the Welsh don't swoop before he's capped for England.

I was hoping Sam Hill would develop into an international level player as well but that seems unlikely. Like Atkinson he's an AP level player.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:47 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:The 12 spot doesn't have to be a big creative player if we have that at 10 and 13.

Atkinson is mentioned above is actually a good example. If you five him a basic role to be as physical as possible and smash holes where he can that's what we are missing. He doesn't need to be world class...he needs to be effective in the role he's given.

I firmly believe England are misisng that type of player at the moment. A physical fulcrum that the skilled players can play off.

Many years ago Cipriani and Noon (remember him?!) Have a masterclass displaying this against Ireland, Cipriani used his natural talent to open space and Noon just had to run strong and hard into it. Cut the Irish to pieces that day.

Likewise Burrell playing this game plan looked brilliant in his breakout season, and before him Jordan Turner-Hall helped win an AP title playing like this.

It really does work and I'd trust it a lot more then the 3 playmakers Aussie League style we're trying in the backs at the moment.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 4:48 pm

Intact the only big 12 we've used who didn't really do that was barritt, and he seems to have scared people off the idea.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 7:40 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Are there a lot of NEQ players playing at 12 in the AVIVA ?

I only ask because I cannot fathom how England have such a lack of options for the position.

Got me thinking, players around the clubs. I actually think Slade would be a better 12 than thirteen where you ideally need pace (Although Jonathan Davies has been getting away with it for years !) Teo, Tuilagi, Devoto, Hill even Barritt could still do a job at 12. Then there are the slightly younger ones like Mallinder, Marchant, Lozowski and Wales were sniffing around Max Clark not that long ago too.
I always thought Twelevetrees was asked to take on too much at 12 for England resulting in not achieving any consistency too. Never rated Burrell. All in all not a brilliant return.

Never heard of Max Clark. Wish we’d sniff around Sam Moore though, and any other kiwi we can get our hands on.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 2:33 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:The 12 spot doesn't have to be a big creative player if we have that at 10 and 13.

Atkinson is mentioned above is actually a good example. If you five him a basic role to be as physical as possible and smash holes where he can that's what we are missing. He doesn't need to be world class...he needs to be effective in the role he's given.

I firmly believe England are misisng that type of player at the moment. A physical fulcrum that the skilled players can play off.

Actually Geordie I was hoping that Williams would kick on at LI. There's a hard running centre that'll do the dirty work to get his team on the front foot. Hopefully the Falcons coaching staff will get the most out of him and make sure the Welsh don't swoop before he's capped for England.

I was hoping Sam Hill would develop into an international level player as well but that seems unlikely. Like Atkinson he's an AP level player.
Yeah hopefully we can work on Williams. Dean has a decent rate of re-juvenating players. Lets see how he goes this season. And I also hoped Hill was going to be the hard, physical centre we were missing. But doesn't look likely now.

I think Eddie does want a more physical player in there...he desperately wanted Manu back...but with such a lack of availability he's opted for the 3 playmakers.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 2:40 am

yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:The 12 spot doesn't have to be a big creative player if we have that at 10 and 13.

Atkinson is mentioned above is actually a good example. If you five him a basic role to be as physical as possible and smash holes where he can that's what we are missing. He doesn't need to be world class...he needs to be effective in the role he's given.

I firmly believe England are misisng that type of player at the moment. A physical fulcrum that the skilled players can play off.

Many years ago Cipriani and Noon (remember him?!) Have a masterclass displaying this against Ireland, Cipriani used his natural talent to open space and Noon just had to run strong and hard into it. Cut the Irish to pieces that day.

Likewise Burrell playing this game plan looked brilliant in his breakout season, and before him Jordan Turner-Hall helped win an AP title playing like this.

It really does work and I'd trust it a lot more then the 3 playmakers Aussie League style we're trying in the backs at the moment.

Yes mate of course I remember Jamie Noon. He was a quality player though maybe just not quite international level.
I still believe you need some grunt In the midfield rather than just playmakers. Sometimes your lucky if you have both...like Leicester have with Toomua.

I often mentioned Sam James. But he hasn't even had a sniff.
Tom Stephenson was injury riddled and off to Irish in the championship.
Sam Hill doesn't seem to be rated
Williams has just signed for us...see how he goes
Atkinson seemingly not rated.
Slade, hasn't shone at 13 so far ...could he play 12? Should that trial at 13 continue
Could Ibitoye or Cockasaniga become a bruising centre?
Worcester have a young bowling ball of a centre coming through I think. Is it Olie someone?
Trinder...where does he stand with regards to England?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:04 am

Henry Slade has not looked good but yet our wingers are scoring tries, read into that what you will.

I prefer a lump in midfield that tackles hard and breaks down doors. Good hands is a bonus.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:29 am

I saw highlights of the USA 12 against Scotland. Consistently carrying hard and requiring two players to bring him down, then when he had their attention and they were putting two defenders on him he was just putting in little passes to get outside them. Not mad 20m spin passes, just a 5m pass to get his 13 on the outside of the defence. You get the feeling that might be the thing we need, and someone like Manu would be perfect for that.

When we do have Watson and Nowell back, could we see Nowell starting at 13? He's been touted there by Eddie before. It would also allow us to have May and Watson on the wings with Daly at 15 and Brown in reserve.

Next year could we see a backline of:
Spencer, Farrell, May, Tuilagi, Nowell, Watson, Daly
Youngs, Ford, Te'o/Lozowski/Slade/Brown

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:34 am

For me Nowell is a quality winger and finisher, why upset that?

also his defensive positioning lets him down.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:42 am

On the other hand if...Mako, Billy, Hughes, George, Itoje etc etc were doing the job of carrying and breaking the line...we wouldn't need a lump in the midfield.

Im just old fashioned and like a big powerful 12 or 13.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:43 am

So...anyway
Whats the team for Saturday?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:44 am

TightHEAD wrote:For me Nowell is a quality winger and finisher, why upset that?

also his defensive positioning lets him down.

He's played 13 on occasion for Exeter and Jones has listed him as an inside back before, although never used him there.

It's an option, not sure if it's my preferred one though. But with a lack of outstanding centre options and a plethora of good back 3 options, it may be one way to go.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:47 am

1 Marler
2 George
3 Williams
4 Isiekwe
5 Laucnbhury
6 Wilson
7 Curry
8 Simmonds

9 Spencer / Robson
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Slade
13 Lowoski
14 May
15 Daly

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:57 am

Shields need to start again. Wouldn't be surprised if we see cipriani.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 5:58 am

Don't see the point in A) Taking Cipriani in the first place, or B) Playing him in the final test.

Either stick with Ford, or go with Farrell for more basic efficiency.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 6:09 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:The 12 spot doesn't have to be a big creative player if we have that at 10 and 13.

Atkinson is mentioned above is actually a good example. If you five him a basic role to be as physical as possible and smash holes where he can that's what we are missing. He doesn't need to be world class...he needs to be effective in the role he's given.

I firmly believe England are misisng that type of player at the moment. A physical fulcrum that the skilled players can play off.

Many years ago Cipriani and Noon (remember him?!) Have a masterclass displaying this against Ireland, Cipriani used his natural talent to open space and Noon just had to run strong and hard into it. Cut the Irish to pieces that day.

Likewise Burrell playing this game plan looked brilliant in his breakout season, and before him Jordan Turner-Hall helped win an AP title playing like this.

It really does work and I'd trust it a lot more then the 3 playmakers Aussie League style we're trying in the backs at the moment.

Yes mate of course I remember Jamie Noon. He was a quality player though maybe just not quite international level.
I still believe you need some grunt In the midfield rather than just playmakers. Sometimes your lucky if you have both...like Leicester have with Toomua.

I often mentioned Sam James. But he hasn't even had a sniff.
Tom Stephenson was injury riddled and off to Irish in the championship.
Sam Hill doesn't seem to be rated
Williams has just signed for us...see how he goes
Atkinson seemingly not rated.
Slade, hasn't shone at 13 so far ...could he play 12? Should that trial at 13 continue
Could Ibitoye or Cockasaniga become a bruising centre?
Worcester have a young bowling ball of a centre coming through I think. Is it Olie someone?
Trinder...where does he stand with regards to England?

I'd forgotten about Sam James. Quality centre. Big, strong and quick. Big fan. Makes a lot of offloads and rips the ball in the tackle. Can play 10 as well so fits in with the many playmakers policy...

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 6:21 am

I have been impressed with James every time I see him play, but since last summer Eddie has not involved him. I guess he did not meet the coaches expectations in Argentina.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 6:40 am

That's the problem LT...im starting to wonder what the coaches expectations are.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Mr Bounce on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:53 pm

This is the team I would like to see. However, it won't happen.

Marler, LCD, Williams, Launchbury, Hill, Shields, Curry, Simmonds, Robson, Cipriani, May, Farrell, Lozowski, Solomona, Daly

George, Hepburn, Sinckler, Itoje, Wilson, Spencer, Slade, Earle

Itoje needs dropping (might focus his mind a bit) and Robson, Hill, Lozowski & Cipriani deserve a chance to show what they can do. Solomona too. I also think that Earle needs a run out - he hasn't been too shabby when used at Sarries this year. No point in taking people on tour if they're not going to be in contention. It's a dead rubber, so let's see what they can do.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:55 pm

Makes you realise how useful George Lowe could have been if not for the injuries and early retirement.

Tbh for the AI's I'd like us to go back to Joseph at 13 unless his form is terrible, this 3 playmakers backline just doesn't work.

Either way though the forwards are more important. Sorting the set piece, rucking and carrying all need to improve. Perhaps a coach could step into help?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 4:59 pm

Also, why are so many players off colour?!

Both Vunipolas
Itoje
Robshaw
George
Synkler
Hughes

All of them are well off the pace. Why is that? Is borthwick out of his depth? hes gone well up until now so I'd be surprised. Have they tried changing tactics and the new ones either aren't working or the players don't understand them? That's likely to me. Is club form impacting national form? Definitely.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by king_carlos on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 5:29 pm

yappysnappy wrote:Also, why are so many players off colour?!

Both Vunipolas
Itoje
Robshaw
George
Synkler
Hughes

All of them are well off the pace. Why is that? Is borthwick out of his depth? hes gone well up until now so I'd be surprised. Have they tried changing tactics and the new ones either aren't working or the players don't understand them? That's likely to me. Is club form impacting national form? Definitely.

Mako, George and Itoje look knackered. Robshaw's 'big engine' is running on an empty tank.

Billy and Hughes were both short ofgame time and it has shown.

As for Sinckler, I think it's been a pretty stark representation of how much more grueling set-piece work is at international level. Coming on at 60 minutes Sinckler has been outstanding in the loose but his scrummaging is still a work in progress - many Quins fans rate Collier higher there as you will know yappy.

SA is always a tough tour and it came at the wrong time for this England side. Jones rolled the dice by not resting key players who need a break. Had he got the squad back to winning ways in the 1st test then looking to rotate fringe players and rest those starters would have been an option.

As it stands the performances have been poor, results worse and predictably there has been a growing count of players heading home crocked.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 2:14 am

Hit the nail on the head there king Carlos. That's why I said earlier whoever planned this tour needs a stern talking too. The players aren't cash cows. A development tour should have been arranged to tier two countries to assess fringe players.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 2:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:I have been impressed with James every time I see him play, but since last summer Eddie has not involved him. I guess he did not meet the coaches expectations in Argentina.

I think he was only a squad member then, don't think he got called did he? Maybe he didn't fit in with the rest of the squad. Can't see James being put off by Jones spiky personality.

I reckon Eddie will be watching Manu very closely in the first few games of next season with fingers crossed.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 3:10 am

Last night I saw Monday's Times in which the exalted Stuart Barnes and the even more exalted Stephen Jones were calling for Cipriani to start in the 10 spot in the final test.  One of their points, which I do agree with, was why bring Danny Boy, if not to let him have a run.  

At this juncture, I see no purpose for Farrell to play and potentially take some hits.  He has had a very full couple of seasons and should be rested.  Ford shouldn't play because he needs to know there are consequences for poor play.  Fortunately or unfortunately, depending how you look at it, that leaves Cipriani.  And if that is the way it is, I would play Francis (if still healthy) outside him.  And then Daly at 13.  

Not saying I believe in Danny Boy, but my logic, as you know, is iron-clad...........

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 3:17 am

Doesn't reinforce there's consequences for poor play if Francis is still getting selected.

Lozowski should get a run in the centres alongside Cips and Slade. If we're going to have Daly as the backup 15 at the RWC he needs more time there.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 3:47 am

doctor_grey wrote:Last night I saw Monday's Times in which the exalted Stuart Barnes and the even more exalted Stephen Jones were calling for Cipriani to start in the 10 spot in the final test.  One of their points, which I do agree with, was why bring Danny Boy, if not to let him have a run.  

At this juncture, I see no purpose for Farrell to play and potentially take some hits.  He has had a very full couple of seasons and should be rested.  Ford shouldn't play because he needs to know there are consequences for poor play.  Fortunately or unfortunately, depending how you look at it, that leaves Cipriani.  And if that is the way it is, I would play Francis (if still healthy) outside him.  And then Daly at 13.  

Not saying I believe in Danny Boy, but my logic, as you know, is iron-clad...........

You are quite a good coach, Doc Grey Wink

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by thomh on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 3:54 am

doctor_grey wrote:Last night I saw Monday's Times in which the exalted Stuart Barnes and the even more exalted Stephen Jones were calling for Cipriani to start in the 10 spot in the final test.  One of their points, which I do agree with, was why bring Danny Boy, if not to let him have a run.  

At this juncture, I see no purpose for Farrell to play and potentially take some hits.  He has had a very full couple of seasons and should be rested.  Ford shouldn't play because he needs to know there are consequences for poor play.  Fortunately or unfortunately, depending how you look at it, that leaves Cipriani.  And if that is the way it is, I would play Francis (if still healthy) outside him.  And then Daly at 13.  

Not saying I believe in Danny Boy, but my logic, as you know, is iron-clad...........

I don't disagree with the principle, I'm just not seeing the poor play from Ford at all. Can't see how anyone could come away from the first two games with the impression that he's the problem.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:01 am

But is he the solution?! There's your philosophical question for you, thomh. Is he the solution?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:10 am

Daly has to stay at 15 for the next test. He's made for that position and hasn't been bad. He just needs to work on a few aspects of full back play at this level and in general.

Id give Slade another go. He hasn't sparkled but then give him another game with Lozwoski switching between 12 and 13.

If Cips is in there, then we're lacking some power in that midfield though and the likes of Vermuelen will be running at them all day long.


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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by BamBam on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:11 am

Lozowski and Slade are good defenders, but agree there's not going to be anyone knocking runners back if that is the midfield

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:21 am

D1cking around with the backs is good fun & Cips needs some reward for losing his summer hols. But until the pack reaches at least parity it's a bit of a paper exercise. Maybe Hartley, Cole & Lawes are missed more than most would expect. They'd at least allow a more impactful bench. And a fit JJ is a shoo-in. Perhaps the only good news from the series is a decent enough 7 and a Robshaw replacement. The worst news is a Billy made of glass.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by BamBam on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:23 am

Looking a bit further ahead, does anyone want to see how Underhill would go at 6 with Curry at 7? Underhill looks to have the tackling prowess to easily fit in at 6, but think it would be quite reliant on Billy and the locks for carrying

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:35 am

Underhill and Curry on the flanks would work. Hope to see that in the AIs along with Genge at loosehead.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:37 am

BamBam wrote:Looking a bit further ahead, does anyone want to see how Underhill would go at 6 with Curry at 7? Underhill looks to have the tackling prowess to easily fit in at 6, but think it would be quite reliant on Billy and the locks for carrying

Well I was quite hopeful of an Underhill at 6, Evans at 7 for RWC 2023. However with ELicester stunting Evans development that is looking a long way off - though if he gets games he could still threaten the Currys in teh future. I do see Underhill (and Willis) more as 6s than 7s.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:52 am

We have no problem with tacklers in the pack. Even Simmonds can hit high figures at international level.

The problem is effective carriers who can get us on the front foot.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 4:59 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:We have no problem with tacklers in the pack. Even Simmonds can hit high figures at international level.

The problem is effective carriers who can get us on the front foot.

Not sure I actually agree with that last bit. Our biggest problem is at the breakdown, which is both the carriers and how they set the ball and the guys clearing the opposition out. While the SA defence is poor, our backs have shown what they can achieve with quick ball.

Now perhaps we usually have more rangy carriers than hard yard carriers, but we do usually have a fair few carrying options - and to be honest with clear coaching and game plan most forwards can be useful carriers. We just do not seem to have either a clear game plan for the forwards, or any quality coaching.

Every time the ball carrier is tackled we need players there to drive over the ball and that in itself gives us front foot ball. too often (in the 6Ns especially) we had forwards carrying away from support, getting isolated and either turned over or penalised for holding on.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

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