Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by clivemcl on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 2:14 am

First topic message reminder :

Carberry is 22, McPhillips is 21. Is this talk about sticking with McPhillips and hoping he turns out to be a gem maybe a tad naive? Carberry at a year older is being talked about as though he was the second coming and all this despite Sexton and Byrne and a whole backline of stellar players potentially blocking him. By contrast, it's almost as if we only know the name of McPhillips because we had no choice. A year ago the thinking was Jackson and Nelson. We then were saying Cooney can play 10 a bit. Then we signed Lealifano. Surely if McPhillips was the hot prospect, the coaches would have featured him more before Lealifano left.
In fact during Leanlifano's time here wasn't Nelson the preferred bench 10, and indeed started 3 games at 10 before Christmas, but then got injured?

Not meaning to be super negative, I hope I'm wrong. Cooney is a perfect example of a player suddenly shining from nowhere. I guess Ulster coaches know better than me if he's a real prospect worth thrusting into the limelight or not.


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 03 Oct 2018, 2:24 pm

profitius wrote:Just picking up on a few points.

- There are more GAA clubs in county cork than rugby clubs in the whole of Ireland.

- Leinster's population is similar to Ulster's but Leinster's is more concentrated around Dublin. Those schools are in wealthy south Dublin and have the money for facilities and numbers to supply Leinster.

- Part of Ulster's problem is keeping hold of their own talent for various reasons and not necessarily their fault. Off the top of my head, there's the likes of Jackson, Olding, Chris Farrell, Stevenson and Whitten in Exeter.

- The Ulster fans are fairly brutal if their forum is anything to go by. McLaughlin got them to a Heineken cup final, playing good rugby but got replaced. Mark McCall was also under pressure from what I remember and wasn't he the last coach to win something?

There is a far greater chill factor between GAA and Rugby in NI than elsewhere on the island - remember only Antrim voted for the motion to open Croke.

McLaughlin was always in Humphreys shadow so how much of that success was due to him? McCall won the Celtic League with Alan Solomons' team and then resigned after a season and a half of worsening results and the dressing room in turmoil.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 03 Oct 2018, 2:35 pm

clivemcl wrote:Do the schools bring rugby to more people though, the limited number who do offer it?
I reckon sports and some other activities should be done outside of schools, but have some kind of national merit associated to them to encourage youngsters to do it. Something similar to how Duke of Ed' looks good on your CV.

To take rugby away from schools an only available through clubs would see a massive reduction in how many kids ever even touch a rugby ball.
But when it's only certain schools that offer it, you severely limit the 'who'. You make your pool of players based on class or academic ability.

In Coleraine, if you don't go to Coleraine Grammar (Coleraine Inst) you are most likely never going to try Rugby.

In my day Coleraine Inst had 800/900 pupils, all of the pupils played rugby as standard in first 3 years (i think).
Compare that to how many passed through Coleraine Club Minis.

The vast majority of people in Coleraine if they ever played a single game of rugby, it was because of Coleraine Inst.
And if you never went to Inst you were very unlikely to ever have touched a rugby ball.

I reckon it should be an option in more schools, but I personally believe in senior school level, the talent should be directed towards local clubs.

I've said before I think schools rugby should be condensed into pre-Christmas and U18/U16 club leagues operated after Christmas.

Also, like I say, some sort of incentive to do non-school activities would be good too like Duke of Ed.

They already operate club leagues don't they? Apparently it's a big problem because now every game means something and guys are playing with injuries more than ever. Risky (skill building) rugby is frowned upon by coaches in favour of grinding out results - taking all the fun out of the game and basically turning off kids. Some big clubs are struggling to get 15 players to fulfil fixtures while others (who have more resources) are putting three figure scores on teams. These mismatches mean there is difficulty with insurance and motivation.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 03 Oct 2018, 2:40 pm

marty2086 wrote:Prominent Northern Ireland businessman Dr David Dobbin is the new man in charge of Ulster Rugby, it can be revealed.

Well at least the boots should be soft and waterproof.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Kingshu on Wed 03 Oct 2018, 9:17 pm

Personally I think a lot of Catholic Schools would like to try a certain amount of Rugby during PE, like they try basketball etc but with rugby they are afraid. Rugby is a very physical and technical game and if the teacher doesnt have experience coaching it (which most Carholic School teachers dont) they will skip it for fear of pupils getting injured, also they dont know how to safey coach line outs scrums even tackling. Much easier to teach basketball, indoor hockey, athletics etc. This is where Ulster needs to step in. Either/both have free specialised training courses for PE teathers to attend in the summer so they have confidence to try rugby for a few weeks, or have a few coaches rotate around the Schools assisting the PE teacher to let the pupils try rugby for a few weeks. If Ulster rugby are picking up the coaches salaries and the Schools can avail of it for free, I think you would be surprised the number that would try it. Even just to vary the PE clases the pupils get.
At end of the few weeks tie in with a local club and if anyone is wanting to continue/take up rugby have someone who runs the local under age clubs there to advise how.
Maybe they will not get too many to play underage club rugby, but it would be an improvement. Worst case is you have a large number of pupils try rugby for a few weeks and have a better appreciation of the game who may not even play for Ulster but may turn up at Ravenhill or watch the 6 nations.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Wed 03 Oct 2018, 9:35 pm

Kingshu wrote:Personally I think a lot of Catholic Schools would like to try a certain amount of Rugby during PE, like they try basketball etc but with rugby they are afraid. Rugby is a very physical and technical game and if the teacher doesnt have experience coaching it (which most Carholic School teachers dont) they will skip it for fear of pupils getting injured, also they dont know how to safey coach line outs scrums even tackling. Much easier to teach basketball, indoor hockey, athletics etc. This is where Ulster needs to step in. Either/both have free specialised training courses for PE teathers to attend in the summer so they have confidence to try rugby for a few weeks, or have a few coaches rotate around the Schools assisting the PE teacher to let the pupils try rugby for a few weeks. If Ulster rugby are picking up the coaches salaries and the Schools can avail of it for free, I think you would be surprised the number that would try it. Even just to vary the PE clases the pupils get.
At end of the few weeks tie in with a local club and if anyone is wanting to continue/take up rugby have someone who runs the local under age clubs there to advise how.
Maybe they will not get too many to play underage club rugby, but it would be an improvement. Worst case is you have a large number of pupils try rugby for a few weeks and have a better appreciation of the game who may not even play for Ulster but may turn up at Ravenhill or watch the 6 nations.

I like the idea Kingshu, think in any non rugby playing schools this would be a good idea, would also be useful to have youth teams in as many of the populated areas as you can. Having a town with over 20k people in it and no youth team is not encouraging. Having to then travel say 10 miles to get to a rugby club when there is a gaa club or football club or hockey club in the same town will mean you lose people who are either on the fence, whos parents don't drive or whose parents don't have the time.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 12:02 pm

Ulster Rugby team to play Connacht Rugby, Guinness PRO14 Round 6, Friday 5th October, Kingspan Stadium, 7.35pm (live on Premier Sports & eir Sport):

(15-9): Peter Nelson; Angus Kernohan, Angus Curtis, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8): Andrew Warwick, Rory Best (captain), Tom O’Toole, Alan O’Connor, Iain Henderson, Matthew Rea, Nick Timoney, Marcell Coetzee;

Replacements (16-23): Adam McBurney, Eric O’Sullivan, Ross Kane, Kieran Treadwell, Sean Reidy, Dave Shanahan, Johnny McPhillips, James Hume.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 12:10 pm

Good to see Nelson get a good run of games

Run

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 1:02 pm

Kingshu wrote:Personally I think a lot of Catholic Schools would like to try a certain amount of Rugby during PE, like they try basketball etc but with rugby they are afraid. Rugby is a very physical and technical game and if the teacher doesnt have experience coaching it (which most Carholic School teachers dont) they will skip it for fear of pupils getting injured, also they dont know how to safey coach line outs scrums even tackling. Much easier to teach basketball, indoor hockey, athletics etc. This is where Ulster needs to step in. Either/both have free specialised training courses for PE teathers to attend in the summer so they have confidence to try rugby for a few weeks, or have a few coaches rotate around the Schools assisting the PE teacher to let the pupils try rugby for a few weeks. If Ulster rugby are picking up the coaches salaries and the Schools can avail of it for free, I think you would be surprised the number that would try it. Even just to vary the PE clases the pupils get.
At end of the few weeks tie in with a local club and if anyone is wanting to continue/take up rugby have someone who runs the local under age clubs there to advise how.
Maybe they will not get too many to play underage club rugby, but it would be an improvement. Worst case is you have a large number of pupils try rugby for a few weeks and have a better appreciation of the game who may not even play for Ulster but may turn up at Ravenhill or watch the 6 nations.

Not so sure that's the case. One kid I know of was told if he went to play rugby his GAA days were over. He made it to the Ulster Representative level but his former GAA teammates ostracised him.

It's not just Catholic Schools that are not promoting rugby but also Secondary Schools in general, who are far more interested in football. The best that can be hoped for is to amalgamate those minorities from non-rugby schools together at local rugby clubs for their games sessions and allow the resulting combined teams into schools competitions.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 1:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:Good to see Nelson get a good run of games

Run

Wasn't Nelson the youngest ever player to start for Ulster?

All that promise has slowly evaporated and it's clear that his confidence is gone. Persistently trying to make him into a 10 was unfair, even though he was OK there at times.

He used to play centre and has strengthened up enough to at least be tried there (especially with the current injuries) before being consigned to the scrapheap.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 1:39 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
It's not just Catholic Schools that are not promoting rugby but also Secondary Schools in general, who are far more interested in football. The best that can be hoped for is to amalgamate those minorities from non-rugby schools together at local rugby clubs for their games sessions and allow the resulting combined teams into schools competitions.

If no ones promoting the sport then how do you get people playing it? That's the problem, we need to get more playing it, that requires Ulster and probably the IRFU engaging with schools and maybe community organisations to get people interested. That translates as punters through the turnstiles too. If you get into schools with hundreds if not thousands of kids in it, and hundreds more coming in every year. How many players and fans can you create there?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 2:41 pm

"Personally I think a lot of Catholic Schools would like to try a certain amount of Rugby during PE, like they try basketball etc. but with rugby they are afraid. Rugby is a very physical and technical game and if the teacher doesn't have experience coaching it (which most Catholic School teachers don't) they will skip it for fear of pupils getting injured, also they don't know how to safely coach line outs scrums even tackling."

Touch or Tag rugby is a great way for those schools to experience the sport.
I mean lets face it, in this country most young people will either play soccer or GAA Football both of which can often be quite divisive in communities. Rugby is one sport that is not only fully inclusive but can stand as a sporting symbol of inclusivity. Even the very act of singing Ireland's Call rings loud with that fact (even if it is an awful dirge). With that in mind you'd think more schools would be promoting it, especially the integrated primary schools and colleges. My son goes to an integrated primary yet they don't offer even tag rugby as an option.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by clivemcl on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 2:42 pm

So Best, Henderson and Coetzee back to bolster the pack. If the pack can do their job, can this backline do any better in attack than we've seen so far?
Time for Cooney and Burns to step it up.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 3:12 pm

Connacht team

(15-9) Tiernan O’Halloran, Niyi Adeolokun, Tom Farrell, Bundee Aki, Matt Healy, Jack Carty, Kieran Marmion, (1-8)Denis Buckley, Tom McCartney, Finlay Bealham, Ultan Dillane, Quinn Roux, Sean O’Brien, Jarrad Butler (Capt), Paul Boyle.

Replacements (16-23): Shane Delahunt, Peter McCabe, Conor Carey, James Cannon, Colby Fainga’a, Caolin Blade, Kyle Godwin, Cian Kelleher.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 3:52 pm

clivemcl wrote:So Best, Henderson and Coetzee back to bolster the pack. If the pack can do their job, can this backline do any better in attack than we've seen so far?
Time for Cooney and Burns to step it up.

We don't know if our backline can attack but we definitely know that Connacht backline can.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by rodders on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 1:37 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
clivemcl wrote:So Best, Henderson and Coetzee back to bolster the pack. If the pack can do their job, can this backline do any better in attack than we've seen so far?
Time for Cooney and Burns to step it up.

We don't know if our backline can attack but we definitely know that Connacht backline can.

That's a very dangerous backline, Tom Farrell looks like a RWC bolder at 13 and they have a very fast back 3. Their pack isn't too bad either, Dillane is back to his best and Sean O'Brien looks a lot more powerful this season.

I think this is not a guaranteed home win by any stretch, Connacht are much stronger than last weeks scoreline would suggest and will be desperate to bounce back themselves.

We need a seasons best performance here, on paper its difficult to see anywhere Ulster have an advantage.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 8:17 pm

ffs stay onside

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 8:39 pm

This is a cracking game with Connacht deservedly ahead overall although I think that last Ulster non-try should have been given.

14-5 sets it up nicely for the second half.

Keepers, Healy and O’Halloran can move - they’re great to watch. This Connacht side is throwing up more and more good candidates. Tom Farrell has impressed me for a while now his partnership with Aki is working nicely.
Ulster’s Kernohan seems to be coming along nicely. As for Cooney, surely he gets a look in this November.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 8:45 pm

Red card

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 8:46 pm

In fairness to Rea the Connacht player did not get off the ground to very very late so he probably didn't think he needed to jump. Thats going to make winning this extremely difficult now

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 8:47 pm

Pot Hale wrote:This is a cracking game with Connacht deservedly ahead overall although I think that last Ulster non-try should have been given.

14-5 sets it up nicely for the second half.

Keepers, Healy and O’Halloran can move - they’re great to watch.  This Connacht side is throwing up more and more good candidates.  Tom Farrell has impressed me for a while now his partnership with Aki is working nicely.
Ulster’s Kernohan seems to be coming along nicely.  As for Cooney, surely he gets a look in this November.  

Kernoghan is looking good, Connachts backs look dangerous but their scrum is mullering Ulsters those big forwards are very impressive

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 9:12 pm

Nick Timoney has put in some big hits tonight

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 9:21 pm

Think this ref likes the sound of his own whistle

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 9:28 pm

Jack Carty has been top drawer tonight. My man of the match.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 9:31 pm

Superb team try from Ulster.

Brilliant break out by McCloskey. ThAt alone deserves the LBP.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 9:33 pm

15-22. Great, great game.

Well done to both sides. That’s the best derby I’ve watched in some time. Full credit to Ulster, they never gave up.

Connacht get their first win in Ravenhill in a long long time. Congrats.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 9:36 pm

Sean O’Brien gets MOTM.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 9:40 pm

Are we sure Connacht didn't borrow the other Sean O'Brien? Connacht thoroughly deserved that, were really physical and excellent up front.
Nick Timoney demonstrating his pace at the end out sprinting the wingers though was fun to watch

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:03 pm

Well played Connacht - fully deserved the win. Rory was the only man who might have made the Connacht team. McFarland will struggle to keep making excuses being the man in charge of the worst Ulster team in 58 years. He was seriously unimpressive in the post match interview, blaming the ref - stupid of him.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:28 pm

Well in fairness he is hardly likely to say that we are here because of the lack of planning from previous coaches and a former chief executive who was useless.

Also Kernoghan played well and our backs didn't look too bad on the ball. Severely hampered by a forward pack marching backwards.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:32 pm

neilthom7 wrote:In fairness to Rea the Connacht player did not get off the ground to very very late so he probably didn't think he needed to jump.  Thats going to make winning this extremely difficult now

Was a yellow at a stretch, was a shocking decision and was a shame for Rea because I thought him and the rest of the backrow played well.

Taking Coetzee off when they did seemed stupid, he was putting in some huge hits and making some big carries and looked to have plenty left in the tank.

Burns is a problem for Ulster, he never takes the ball into contact and it's too easy for the defence then. The only time he was tackled was from Cooneys dodgy passing which seems to be a regular occurrence in games now, his decision making is poor too. Too many times tonight Ulster were going one way and a quick switch would have opened Connacht up.

Ulster still could have won the game but for mistakes in Connachts 22 especially from lineouts and mauls

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Artful_Dodger on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:35 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Well played Connacht - fully deserved the win. Rory was the only man who might have made the Connacht team. McFarland will struggle to keep making excuses being the man in charge of the worst Ulster team in 58 years. He was seriously unimpressive in the post match interview, blaming the ref - stupid of him.

I agree, a coach should never have a pop at the ref regardless of how poor they were.  Cockerill has really damaged his career from doing it.  

As far as the performance is concerned, the pack is way below par.  Andrew Warwick got destroyed at scrum time, O'Toole was decent.  Alan O'Connor repeatedly fails to impress me and I'm not sure why he is where he is, captaining the team in some games and obviously considered ahead of Treadwell.  Henderson isn't in a great run of form.  (Conversely Roux and Dillane are looking very good).  Coetzee looks like a guy who thinks it's all on him and is trying way too hard, unsurprising given that as far as carrying is concerned it almost is all on him.  Never been convinced by Rea, just something missing, at least at this stage of his career.  Timoney was decent.  So yeh, Rory Best at 36 the best player in the pack, sad.

In the backs, Peter Nelson isn't up to this level, there is a reason why he is a third choice fullback at the age of 26 (behind Addison and Ludik)  It's also telling that he is seemingly happy to be third choice when most at his age would be looking for opportunities at other clubs.  He knows he won't get them.  Stockdale looked good on his return, McCloskey and the two Angus' decent.  Half backs a big disappointment tonight.  In fairness to them when your pack is being steam rolled it's not easy.

So many things breaking against Ulster right now, but there is really nobody to blame other than Ulster.  Even on the McFarland side of things, new Head Coach arriving 12 days before the start of the season.....there is just something so amateur about the whole shabang at the minute.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:38 pm

Damn gutted for Ulster. They're my 2nd team. I like to see them doing well.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Maine man on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:52 pm

I watched burns quite a bit last year and when ulster said he was joining some ulster fans reckoned he was being lined up as the back up ten for Ireland I did have a little chuckle to myself. Simple fact if he was any good Ireland would have sniffed him out before ulster did. Just my opinion by the way. I would like to see McPhillips back at 10 and Burns on the bench for the next match.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by clivemcl on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 9:04 am

I’ve always said this. At some point in the game, some players realised jumping to catch was advantageous. It came at a price, it was a risky thing to do, and those doing it were ‘brave’. At some point it became the norm, and somewhere along the line they decided to forget about the fact it’s a players own risky choice , a risk they take with the hope of beating the opposition to the catch.
The rules now protecting the airborne player effectively encourages the danger by telling players they ought to ALWAYS jump for a catch or risk getting carded if they touch another airborne player.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 9:57 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Well played Connacht - fully deserved the win. Rory was the only man who might have made the Connacht team. McFarland will struggle to keep making excuses being the man in charge of the worst Ulster team in 58 years. He was seriously unimpressive in the post match interview, blaming the ref - stupid of him.

I agree, a coach should never have a pop at the ref regardless of how poor they were.  Cockerill has really damaged his career from doing it.  

As far as the performance is concerned, the pack is way below par.  Andrew Warwick got destroyed at scrum time, O'Toole was decent.  Alan O'Connor repeatedly fails to impress me and I'm not sure why he is where he is, captaining the team in some games and obviously considered ahead of Treadwell.  Henderson isn't in a great run of form.  (Conversely Roux and Dillane are looking very good).  Coetzee looks like a guy who thinks it's all on him and is trying way too hard, unsurprising given that as far as carrying is concerned it almost is all on him.  Never been convinced by Rea, just something missing, at least at this stage of his career.  Timoney was decent.  So yeh, Rory Best at 36 the best player in the pack, sad.

In the backs, Peter Nelson isn't up to this level, there is a reason why he is a third choice fullback at the age of 26 (behind Addison and Ludik)  It's also telling that he is seemingly happy to be third choice when most at his age would be looking for opportunities at other clubs.  He knows he won't get them.  Stockdale looked good on his return, McCloskey and the two Angus' decent.  Half backs a big disappointment tonight.  In fairness to them when your pack is being steam rolled it's not easy.

So many things breaking against Ulster right now, but there is really nobody to blame other than Ulster.  Even on the McFarland side of things, new Head Coach arriving 12 days before the start of the season.....there is just something so amateur about the whole shabang at the minute.

The first area Ulster needs to address is the pack. Clarke may have been unlikable but the set piece was better under his tutelage. It seems Ulster can neither defend the maul nor set up their own as a weapon. As long as they can't do this, they will concede a part of the game to opponents who will target it.

This leads to the second area that needs to be addressed - leadership. Why on earth with seconds left in the first half and with a dodgy maul, would they kick a penalty to the corner? Taking the three points to get within a score would have set the tone for the dressing room, rather than misguidedly going for a try scoring opportunity that has misfired all season. It's unfashionable to kick points but when the pack is struggling, surely surely they need to take any opportunity they get?
Rory is a captain by example and has a good way (normally) with referees, but strategically he is not always the most incisive. Where are the rest of the leaders - who is communicating and thinking on their feet? Coetzee has been disappointing on that front, but Cooney should be showing more, maybe McCloskey too. They have a weaker squad than they've had for a few years and need to be a lot sharper mentally to make up for that deficit - that is something they can improve upon.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by clivemcl on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 12:16 pm

I’ve always said this. At some point in the game, some players realised jumping to catch was advantageous. It came at a price, it was a risky thing to do, and those doing it were ‘brave’. At some point it became the norm, and somewhere along the line they decided to forget about the fact it’s a players own risky choice , a risk they take with the hope of beating the opposition to the catch.
The rules now protecting the airborne player effectively encourages the danger by telling players they ought to ALWAYS jump for a catch or risk getting carded if they touch another airborne player.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 12:49 pm

clivemcl wrote:I’ve always said this. At some point in the game, some players realised jumping to catch was advantageous. It came at a price, it was a risky thing to do, and those doing it were ‘brave’. At some point it became the norm, and somewhere along the line they decided to forget about the fact it’s a players own risky choice , a risk they take with the hope of beating the opposition to the catch.
The rules now protecting the airborne player effectively encourages the danger by telling players they ought to ALWAYS jump for a catch or risk getting carded if they touch another airborne player.

To be honest, I think Kelleher misjudged the flight and thought he could get it without jumping but ended up having to jump to take it I just think the ref made a balls of the decision. Rea was in a realistic position to catch the ball and would have won it but for Kelleher jumping, therefore there was a contest which means not a red

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by clivemcl on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 1:19 pm

I’m confused, I though they back peddled on this after Payne. I thought it was as simple as:
- both in air - no issue
- one in air and collision - yellow
- if the fall is on head/shoulder- red

It was yellow in my book.

But in general, I think if they really were concerned with safety, it would be the act of jumping itself they should ban. It is the thing that is dangerous.

It’s like ... kids keep going on railway tracks. Let’s take the trains away, so no kids get hurt on the railways.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 1:24 pm

There is no mention in the laws of both players being in the air

Play on – Fair challenge with both players in a realistic position to catch the ball. Even if the player(s) land(s) dangerously, play on
Penalty only – Fair challenge with wrong timing - No pulling down
Yellow card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player is pulled down landing on his back or side
Red card – It’s not a fair challenge with no contest, whilst being a reckless or deliberate foul play action and the player lands in a dangerous position

For any kind of card there would have had to be no contest, there was a clear contest for the ball as Rea was inches from it

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Standulstermen on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 1:25 pm

On the red- I was under the impression that if the player is in the air those in the ground have a duty of care. Red all day imo and silly from Rea. Take a quick glance ffs.

Our inability to make correct decisions in attack is killing us. After the first couple of failed mauls we were 2/3 yards out. We didn’t even attempt a pick and go. That’s on our leaders and 9/10. You tie in Connacht defenders and then throw it wide where McCloskey isn’t lined up by 2 or 3 defenders. We tied in no one and when we did attack the fringes it was Curtis on his own and we were turned over. That’s just absolutely baffling. I have some sympathy for the coaches as you shouldn’t have to teach pro players that.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 1:28 pm

Standulstermen wrote:On the red- I was under the impression that if the player is in the air those in the ground have a duty of care. Red all day imo and silly from Rea. Take a quick glance ffs.

Our inability to make correct decisions in attack is killing us. After the first couple of failed mauls we were 2/3 yards out. We didn’t even attempt a pick and go. That’s on our leaders and 9/10. You tie in Connacht defenders and then throw it wide where McCloskey isn’t lined up by 2 or 3 defenders. We tied in no one and when we did attack the fringes it was Curtis on his own and we were turned over. That’s just absolutely baffling. I have some sympathy for the coaches as you shouldn’t have to teach pro players that.

Sorry but how is it silly from Rea? Should he jump just for the sake of jumping? Or just teleport out of the way?


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Standulstermen on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 1:31 pm

Yes he fecking should jump for the sake of it. I’m not saying I agree with the way it’s reffed but we all know how it is reffed. Everyone knew that red was coming and everyone knows by jumping it negates the chances of it happening.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 1:51 pm

marty2086 wrote:There is no mention in the laws of both players being in the air

Play on – Fair challenge with both players in a realistic position to catch the ball. Even if the player(s) land(s) dangerously, play on
Penalty only – Fair challenge with wrong timing - No pulling down
Yellow card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player is pulled down landing on his back or side
Red card – It’s not a fair challenge with no contest, whilst being a reckless or deliberate foul play action and the player lands in a dangerous position

For any kind of card there would have had to be no contest, there was a clear contest for the ball as Rea was inches from it

However int he example shown both players are in the air. The way it seems to be viewed is if one player in in the air and the other is not then the other player is not in a realistic position to catch the ball as he could only catch it if the other player misses.
Its been out there for quite some time now, players have plenty of history to show them what happens when one player jumps and another does not.
I feel sympathy for Rea because the Connacht player jumped late and so he likely didn't think he needed to jump but the way it is being reffed over the past few years it was always going to be a red.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by clivemcl on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 7:17 pm

Some of you boys need to take yourself to a pitch with a rugby ball. Kick a high ball and run under it to catch.
Take your eyes if the ball and look down whilst running under the ball, then look up again.
I’ll give you a hundred quid if you make the catch.

The idea of being aware of the other player is a nonsense. Utter nonsense. Anyone knows if you want to catch a ball, you keep your eye on the ball.

Point us, the only way to avoid a card is to jump yourself. ALWAYS.

So what outcome have we got, from this supposed concern for player welfare? What have we got as a result if this effort to better look after player welfare?

Less players taking the risk of going airborne at pace?

Nope.

MORE players going airborne at pace.

Well done clap

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by neilthom7 on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 7:53 pm

clivemcl wrote:Some of you boys need to take yourself to a pitch with a rugby ball. Kick a high ball and run under it to catch.
Take your eyes if the ball and look down whilst running under the ball, then look up again.
I’ll give you a hundred quid if you make the catch.

The idea of being aware of the other player is a nonsense. Utter nonsense. Anyone knows if you want to catch a ball, you keep your eye on the ball.

Point us, the only way to avoid a card is to jump yourself. ALWAYS.

So what outcome have we got, from this supposed concern for player welfare? What have we got as a result if this effort to better look after player welfare?

Less players taking the risk of going airborne at pace?

Nope.

MORE players going airborne at pace.

Well done clap

As a guy who played wing and fullback Clive I have made plenty of catches so I know what is involved in it. You don't need to stare all you need is a quick glance as you are running to see if you are going to be challenged, if you are you should jump both to have a chance of getting the ball and ensure you are not done for taking a player out.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 7:59 pm

clivemcl wrote:Some of you boys need to take yourself to a pitch with a rugby ball. Kick a high ball and run under it to catch.
Take your eyes if the ball and look down whilst running under the ball, then look up again.
I’ll give you a hundred quid if you make the catch.

The idea of being aware of the other player is a nonsense. Utter nonsense. Anyone knows if you want to catch a ball, you keep your eye on the ball.

Point us, the only way to avoid a card is to jump yourself. ALWAYS.

So what outcome have we got, from this supposed concern for player welfare? What have we got as a result if this effort to better look after player welfare?

Less players taking the risk of going airborne at pace?

Nope.

MORE players going airborne at pace.

Well done clap

Not just that but Kelleher went up and used his knee to fend off Rea, this is what caused his fall. Wasn't there an Aussie player banned in this seasons Super Rugby for doing something like that?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by clivemcl on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 8:02 pm

Whatever Neil, my point still stands. The rule which was brought in to supposedly look out for players has led to more jumping. High speed collisions where both parties are airborne are harder to apportion blame to, yet are just as likely to result in serious life changing injury.

The law/rules do not reduce the risk of serious injury. Therefore, it’s dumb.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by marty2086 on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 8:05 pm

neilthom7 wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Some of you boys need to take yourself to a pitch with a rugby ball. Kick a high ball and run under it to catch.
Take your eyes if the ball and look down whilst running under the ball, then look up again.
I’ll give you a hundred quid if you make the catch.

The idea of being aware of the other player is a nonsense. Utter nonsense. Anyone knows if you want to catch a ball, you keep your eye on the ball.

Point us, the only way to avoid a card is to jump yourself. ALWAYS.

So what outcome have we got, from this supposed concern for player welfare? What have we got as a result if this effort to better look after player welfare?

Less players taking the risk of going airborne at pace?

Nope.

MORE players going airborne at pace.

Well done clap

As a guy who played wing and fullback Clive I have made plenty of catches so I know what is involved in it.  You don't need to stare all you need is a quick glance as you are running to see if you are going to be challenged, if you are you should jump both to have a chance of getting the ball and ensure you are not done for taking a player out.

Except if that challenge comes at the last moment and jumping makes getting the ball more difficult

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by Redman on Sun 07 Oct 2018, 12:27 am

I didn’t watch the game. Obviously grateful I didn’t.

Still, I have read enough opinions on it.

Nelson? Why do we know what our coaches do not? Why have we known this for the last 2 years and they’ve been unable to grasp?

I’m told we have a scrum coach. I’m yet to believe this. I said it before when McFarland came in and commented on how great our the existing setup was ... mostly. I paraphrase but on Dundon he said “he’s finding his feet”. It seems his students are unable to.

On the stats Burns missed 6 tackles. I was saying we needed to rotate to McPhillips 3 games ago. I’m sure we’ll see some more Love sacks about him needing to settle. But hey, McPhillips weakness in the youth ranks was defence.

I’m old enough to remember (I’m older than 3) that O’Connor had a congenial hip/pelvic issue which prevented him playing too many games in a row. Per the Ulster website he’s played every game this season, either as a starter or from the bench (including Gloucester and Wasps).

We seem to be unable to learn from our mistakes. Our coaches seem to understand less than we do about our team. This is a serious cause of concern.
McFarland talked about changing the culture of the club when he came in. How about ruthlessly rewarding performance with some basic strategic decisions.

I haven’t watched the last 2 games but i have seen enough to question what our overall strategy is for this season. And if we have one, I’d be grateful if the coaches could explain it so we could at least attempt to buy into it.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 07 Oct 2018, 9:21 am

With the injuries to Addison, Ludik, Gilroy, Busby and Lyttle, Nelson is probably the best cover in the squad - that's why he is being picked.

The squad is paper thin with some first teamers like O'Connor being below Test class, so the quality is obviously worse behind them. Ulster's squad is probably similar in quality to those of the Kings, Cheetahs, Dragons, Zebre and maybe Treviso so perhaps fans' expectations should reflect that?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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