PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

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PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 4:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).It seems there's as much anticipation this week to see how the USGA has set up Shinnecock Hills for the US Open as there is to see how Tiger Woods does.
Everything else secondary.
Not sure that does justice to Shinnecock, which is traditionally one of the stars of the USGA's US Open circuit of courses.
It'll be the first visit here since the fiasco of 2004 when the USGA was presumably thrilled with a final round scoring average of about 78 . . . . . . until they were overwhelmed by an avalanche of richly deserved negative publicity about dried out/dead greens and incompatible winds.

2).So they brought in Coore & Crenshaw to prepare the lay-out for 2018's golfers - 500 yards added to the course, wider (up to 40 yards) fairways and some redoing of a few of the greens. All this overshadowed by ill-fated experiments at Chambers Bay, in 2015, and Erin Hills last year. So the USGA is on the spot this week. Not so much Shinnecock though as they're already assured of a return visit in 2026.

3).Shinnecock, way out on New York State's Long Island, is by most accounts one of the first five golf clubs in the USA (tho' Royal Montreal and Royal Quebec predated it during the early 1870's, in that territory north of the border now referred to, presumably, as that "special place in hell" by White House staff); some "golf" clubs in South Carolina & Georgia existed earlier without much evidence they actually played golf.
In 1895 Shinnecock was one of the five "Founding Clubs" (clubs in Boston, Chicago, Newport, RI, and New York) of the USGA which held its first US Open at Newport GC, then at Shinnecock the following year. Then not again until Ray Floyd won a thriller in 1986.

4).A pair of Willies laid out the course, Davis produced 12 holes followed by Dunn who added 9 more and integrated the two efforts into an 18-holer. Charles B.McDonald (National Golf Links and others) and the prolific Seth Raynor (Fishers Island, Chicago GC, Waialae CC and dozens in between) upgraded the course and Willie Flynn (Merion etc) reconfigured the 18 holes roughly resembling what we see today.
Coore and Crenshaw have stretched the course to almost 7,500 yards - it looks to have been pretty dry on Long Island so hopefully there'll be some penal rough otherwise this week promises to be a bombers paradise. A golfer of 1995 winner Corey Pavin's length need not apply, though a Retief Goosen profile, hits it far enough and with a brilliant putting week, will be competitive. (Pity Retief didn't receive an invitation.)

5).Given that foreward, how does that help us pick a winner this week?
I'd start with the world's Top ten, add a couple, eliminate one or two others and roll the dice.

6).Dustin? If he's playing at his best, he can't be beaten! Hasn't been out of the Top 20 in a strokeplay event since last September, but not keen on him playing in Woods's group, the only reservation.
Thomas: Don't fancy him here, no particular reason, just don't find him as convincing as his wins might suggest.
Rose: Great chance, though his links form hasn't been that great this century. But hits it far enough and plots his way around as well as anyone. Seemingly a great caddie relationship.
Spieth: Course management great, but driving accuracy still questionable and lost his magic touch on the greens.
Rahm: Seems to have gone off the boil - may win a Major one day, but not this week.
Rory: Under the radar, but perhaps justifiably so. Too inconsistent for me, still not keen on his caddie situation.
Fowler: Wins on the PGA Tour less that 2% of the time; too good not to improve that, but doubt it'll be this week.
Day: Like Rory, don't fancy his caddie deal, but has all the proverbial tools to win. Fitness, mental & physical always a ?
Koepka: Playing well; can he be the first to successfully "defend" since Curtis Strange a generation or two ago? Wouldn't be surprised.
Matsuyama: Unconvincing since his injury, no Tour Top 3's since August, but wouldn't be surprised to see him somewhere on the leaderboard.

7).Best of the rest?
Best Aussie: Leishman - so difficult to predict, but must have a great chance if the wind blows a bit.
Best Saffer: tie between Grace & King Louis, two guys who seem to elevate their game in Majors.
Best Cont European: Stenson: Why not, if he's in the mood?
Best GB&I: Poults: Just got a feeling! Also like Lowry to have a decent week.
Best of the rest of the US: Kooch & Duf.
Lots of good e.w. options there.

8).Phil & Tiger: Would love to see Mickelson win a US Open, but rather feel his time has passed. Woods is ten years removed from his Torrey Pines heroics, but the course looks as if it could be set up in his favour. SkyBet says 16/1 against him so could be worth an e.w. punt, but don't see him winning.

9).Fox will be broadcasting this week and the best bet of the week is that Joe Buck will make us miss Jim Nantz before the first hour is up.
Shane O'Donoghue will no doubt try to match him in the verbal diarrhea stakes, but hopefully Zinger and Faxon can rein them in. Ken Brown will be on the course but, on US TV, always sounds as if he's got socks in his mouth - but a great asset if they can fix his audio.
Fox also has the World Cup, almost enough to make one fly east for the next six weeks.

10).I hope they get the course set up right so that golf can be the winner. The weather should be ideal, dry, mild, with some breeze but nothing too severe, enough to allow the course to play as nature intended, firm and fast without going ott.
Don't much care who wins but trust it will be because of great golf, not because the USGA tried to be too clever with the course.  
And reveal that Shinnecock is the true star of the week.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 1:03 am

That's intriguing Ned, the sort of thing that could keep me up at night.
Many of these Major winners have better records than we might think.
Still struggling . . . . . . . . !

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 2:59 am

RIP Peter Thomson.

http://www.golf.org.au/newsdisplay/death-of-peter-thomson-ao-cbe/100854

Crying or Very sad

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by NedB-H on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 10:54 am

Thomson didn’t get enough credit in recent years, a bit of a forgotten great. Along with Watson the best links golfer ever?

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 12:49 pm

Agree Ned,
Amazing thing is, like Bannister & Hillary, playing golf was just one of his many achievements.
Another great from one's childhood departs (following Bueno & Stan Anderson - for you Diggers) just in the past week or so.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 2:58 pm

I was away all weekend, still catching up and watched round 3 highlights last night. I think the evil course conditions have been blown out of proportion. Maybe there were a couple of pin positions that were a little harsh, but overall I thought the set up was fair.

It was tough for everyone. The players I saw struggling were the ones continuing to play the aerial game and land the ball softly on rock hard greens. Especially those who carried on trying to play flashy fizzing chips and pitches instead of bump and run.

I thought it was great watching the players having to think outside the box, be conservative and tactical instead of mindless bomb and gouge.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 3:05 pm

Doug Ford, Carol Mann, Peter Thomson....and now Hubert Green

https://twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1009434985336631296

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 3:36 pm

GPB wrote:Doug Ford, Carol Mann, Peter Thomson....and now Hubert Green

https://twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1009434985336631296


Hadn't seen that GPB, an underrated player if ever there was one.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 1:14 pm

Gota love Rocco Mediate:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rocco-mediate-goes-off-on-complaints-about-us-open-course-setup-made-me-want-to-throw-up

Well said.
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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 1:25 pm

One of Rocco Mediate's neighbors used to be on the 606 golf board once, said he couldn't imagine anyone much more disliked.
If Rocco thought the Saturday Shinnecock set up was remotely fair wasn't watching, or at least taking note of the drastically penal switch in conditions.
Don't think too many pros complained about Thursday, Friday & Sunday - but even the USGA admitted they got it wrong on Saturday.
But, like his buddy who seems likely to be squandering 5M pounds of Scots' tax-payer money, Rocco knows best.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Seve76 on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 1:55 pm

"Well said"?! Definitely not.
The obvious point to make is that Mediate wasn't there, and simply has no concept of the level of absurdity the course reached on the Saturday afternoon. These micky-mouse conditions crop up at sporadic US Opens, and you can always count on a few simpletons to dismiss any complaints with the usual "pampered-pros-whinging" and "all-they-want-is-bomb-and-gouge-target-golf" remarks.
It's nonsense, because there is clearly a line. No, we don't want to see -20 winning every week on a flat, watered course.
But equally we don't want to see a course set-up so extreme to the point that skill becomes irrelevant & luck completely takes over. I've been a golf fan for thirty years, and I've never enjoyed watching a tournament less than the 2018 US Open - it was a farce. When balls slow to a virtual halt and then literally slide 50 yards off a green, that's clearly overstepping the line.
Make it tough, really tough if you like. Don't make it blatantly unfair.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 2:30 pm

Seve76 wrote:"Well said"?! Definitely not.
The obvious point to make is that Mediate wasn't there, and simply has no concept of the level of absurdity the course reached on the Saturday afternoon. These micky-mouse conditions crop up at sporadic US Opens, and you can always count on a few simpletons to dismiss any complaints with the usual "pampered-pros-whinging" and "all-they-want-is-bomb-and-gouge-target-golf" remarks.
It's nonsense, because there is clearly a line. No, we don't want to see -20 winning every week on a flat, watered course.
But equally we don't want to see a course set-up so extreme to the point that skill becomes irrelevant & luck completely takes over. I've been a golf fan for thirty years, and I've never enjoyed watching a tournament less than the 2018 US Open - it was a farce. When balls slow to a virtual halt and then literally slide 50 yards off a green, that's clearly overstepping the line.
Make it tough, really tough if you like. Don't make it blatantly unfair.

Shouldn't you be posting this is in the "tell us about your game" thread? I'm assuming you were there, as you have a better understanding than Mediate. What did you shoot?

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 2:39 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
Seve76 wrote:"Well said"?! Definitely not.
The obvious point to make is that Mediate wasn't there, and simply has no concept of the level of absurdity the course reached on the Saturday afternoon. These micky-mouse conditions crop up at sporadic US Opens, and you can always count on a few simpletons to dismiss any complaints with the usual "pampered-pros-whinging" and "all-they-want-is-bomb-and-gouge-target-golf" remarks.
It's nonsense, because there is clearly a line. No, we don't want to see -20 winning every week on a flat, watered course.
But equally we don't want to see a course set-up so extreme to the point that skill becomes irrelevant & luck completely takes over. I've been a golf fan for thirty years, and I've never enjoyed watching a tournament less than the 2018 US Open - it was a farce. When balls slow to a virtual halt and then literally slide 50 yards off a green, that's clearly overstepping the line.
Make it tough, really tough if you like. Don't make it blatantly unfair.

I'm assuming you were there, as you have a better understanding than Mediate. What did you shoot? Was it really as hard as it looked on TV?


ray,
What was patently unfair, statistically if no other way (although Mike Davis said he clearly got it wrong), is that the course played benign and defenseless on Saturday morning (hence 66's from Finau & Berger and low rounds from others), then brutally difficult in the afternoon, not because the wind was blowing, which is fair enough, but because holes were cut in positions that were apparently almost inaccessible if certain conditions prevailed. Just daft.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Sat 30 Jun 2018, 4:29 pm

Not sure how Mediate's opinion trumps other peoples opinions. especially since he probably wasn't there.

It also seems like his opinion is that other golfers should not be voicing their opinion.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 30 Jun 2018, 5:26 pm

No-one suggested Mediate's opinion trumps anything. Where was that said? Pretty sure I missed that.
I think what he means is, you're playing for the US Open, and all that that means. It's also the same for everyone, more or less, over the 4 days. Suck it up. The prize is worth it.

I'm not saying the pros there shouldn't say anything, but some of the whining is pretty poor. You're only playing golf, and for millions of dollars FFS; Give.It.A.Rest.
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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by beninho on Sat 30 Jun 2018, 8:53 pm

Think dustin johnson said the course was fine apart from maybe 2 holes. Brookes Koepka shot 72. The course was not unplayable and it was nothing about luck. Thee best player coped with it fine and he deservedly won the title.

Was it a farce, was it fuk, touch of hyperbole their.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 10:30 pm

If the USGA states that they "lost the course" and the scores amply bear that out, that's good enough for me.
If Mediate knows better, good for him; he could even have tried to qualify and show us all just how "fair" it was for all to see.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 10:38 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:If the USGA states that they "lost the course" and the scores amply bear that out, that's good enough for me.
If Mediate knows better, good for him; he could even have tried to qualify and show us all just how "fair" it was for all to see.
Maybe he’s just trying to..ehm..mediate?

I’ll get my coat.

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Roller_Coaster on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 2:17 pm

pedro wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:If the USGA states that they "lost the course" and the scores amply bear that out, that's good enough for me.
If Mediate knows better, good for him; he could even have tried to qualify and show us all just how "fair" it was for all to see.
Maybe he’s just trying to..ehm..mediate?

I’ll get my coat.

hee hee

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Re: PGA Tour: Shinnecock - A Star is Reborn: Notes from the Ballwasher

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