Scotland end of season summary and awards

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Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 25 Jun 2018, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland season 2017-2018

Summer tour

Argentina 15 - 44 Scotland
USA 30 - 29 Scotland
Canada 10 - 48 Scotland

6 Nations

Italy 27 - 29 Scotland
Ireland 28 - 8 Scotland
Scotland 25 - 13 England
Scotland 32 - 26 France
Wales 34 - 7 Scotland

AIs

Scotland 53 - 24 Australia
Scotland 17 - 22 New Zealand
Scotland 44 - 38 Samoa

Points for - 336

Points against - 262

Summary

Well it is probably fair to say this has been one of the most memorable seasons in recent times! Some stand out wins (England, France, Australia), some incredible performances (those three plus NZ), combined with a harrowing defeat (Wales) and an embarrassing lesson that you can’t put a bunch of kids out in international rugby and expect to win (USA).

All in all we have seen a lot of attacking rugby, some great tries, although some dodgy defence at times. Scotland have a reputation for bad defence, which has been true at times, but this season we scored 74 points more than we conceded – as long we keep that up we should be OK….

Townsend will have learnt a hell of a lot from his first season in charge. Personally I would like to see us tighten up our defence, even if that means limiting our attacking ambitions slightly (but only slightly). There’s lots fo look forward to next season with a world cup carrot at the end of the stick.


End of season awards

Player of the season
Forward of the season
Back of the season
Young player of the season
Debut of the season
‘Must do better’ award

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 2:56 pm

jimbopip wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:
He could have become world class considering how good he is without even playing. Reminds me of Ledley King from football (Wendyball in Jimboan) fame.

Yahoo Yahoo  It's not quite "Wildean" but I have officially begat an adjective. Yahoo Yahoo

Hug You guys Hug

Also I have got tickets for the Sooth Effrikka game in November. Yahoo  I shall be with Bru and Caz the quiet Bokkie. One behaves like Niles Crane and the other is a six foot four ex-Springbok's Under 18's.


Also warning let's have no more silly talk of Matt Scott ever playing 12 for Scotland again. The two most inept defensive displays in recent memory were him at 12 against England at Twickers four years ago and him at 12 versus Samoa at St James' in the World Cup. Thankfully Toonie (for all his flakiness ) only picks players who can defend.

How does Peter 'speed bump' Horne keep getting picked then? nope

Horne has had far more calamities than Scott yet is still getting picked so I can't see it being a problem.

Also, I find phrases like 'should never play for Scotland again' hilarious, particularly since the games you refer to were 4 and 3 years ago respectively!

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 3:09 pm

RDW, I feel we've gone over this before but (deep breath) before his shoulder injury Matt Scott was developing into an exceptionally good 12. After his shoulder injury he seems to be "less committed" to the more physical aspects of defending. To put it kindly.

The reason I quote those games is because; he didn't miss a tackle or two, or be used as a speed bump by a mahoosive Samoan, but actually put in a whole match's worth of ineptitude. he was consistent I'll give him that. At Twickers he was hooked at half time and Gregg Tonks played 12 for the second half and the defence improved/didn't get noticeably worse. That's how bad he was.

As for "should never....again"  if his defending has not improved significantly then he has no right to play for Scotland. He's not Dan Parks is he?

Of course the interesting unknown in all this is....why did Cockers sign him? Does he think he'll do a Grant Gilchrist on him? From a Scotland point of view I hope he does, if Matt Scott rediscovers the form he once had we'll all be happy here.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:22 am

Ahhhh so Nick Grigg's displays of defense over the summer were not also inept?

You weegie lot are just worried that we see a Scotland line up of:

Dell - Edinburgh
McInally -Edinburgh
Berghan - Edinburgh
Gilchrist - Edinburgh
Toolis - Edinburgh
Bradbury - Edinburgh
Watson - Edinburgh
Denton - Formally Edinburgh now Leicester Tigers

Then even in the backs where you lot used to be in good shape we'll see

Horne Jnr - Glasgow
Russell - Racing
Scott - Edinburgh
Bennett - Edinburgh
Fife - Edinburgh
Kinghorn - Edinburgh
Hogg - Glasgow

two weegies in the team! ouch!

I know this is done in jest but that could easily be the team that rocks out for the AIs this year!
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:39 am

Ah Tiger, you argue from a false premise. warning

A summer tour is the place to find out what people can, or can't do. we all knew that Grigg runs unbelievable lines in attack; the big worry was whether he could defend against the big beasts in the international herd.

A Six Nations decider at Twickenham or a crucial World Cup match are not the place to discover that your bulky inside centre also does a very good bead curtain impression.

As for your Scotland XV; I can see Fagerson and Bhatti being third choices in the World Cup squad, Gray and Gray being the starting locks, Bradbury and Watson travelling and Ian "Big Stones" Bru wearing the 8 jersey before Claire Denton.

As for Scott-Bennett-Fife if the three of them EVER start a competitive match under Toonie (in whom we trust) I'll let you buy me a drink. Bubbly

Dunbar, Taylor, Horne Snr, Sam Johnson all in front of Scott in the pecking order.

Jones, Dunbar, Taylor ahead of angel

No Maits, Seymour, Lee Jones, Kinghorne, Byron all ahead of Fay Fife. (just for the Rezillos fans out there)

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:45 am

Jimbo I get the impression you have a severe aversion to Matt Scott (not sure what's giving it away), certainly more so than your 21st-esque disdain of any Edinburgh player.

Did he once tweet using the wrong their/there/they're or something?

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 12:07 pm

RDW, it's not an aversion or disdain it's an objective assessment of where he's at as a player.

Before his injury he was almost as good as a fully fit Alex Dunbar.

Since his injury he defends like the sickly love child of Dan Parks and Barbara Cartland.


As I have said mayhaps Cockers will read him his fortune and we'll see the player he can be, in which case he could force his way into the World Cup squad
However, if I was Toonie I would stick him in against one of the more physical teams in the AI's to see how he copes. The Saffers would be the obvious choice for a sink or swim match.

picard Fecc! I've got tickets for that.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 12:36 pm

I'd imagine Scott will get a chance in the AIs assuming he's playing, and playing well for Edinburgh.

I've not seen that much of him playing for Gloucester so not in a position to comment on how well or otherwise he's been playing. I do know that Toonie & Vern both advised him to work on his defense, which I'm pretty sure he'll be doing at Edinburgh, so assuming he's done that he's likely to get a shot at some point (possibly Wales game, due to being only able to pick Edin & Glasgow players)

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 2:23 pm

I don't think you can claim to be objective if you are saying a player should never play for Scotland again based on two performances - one from 3 years ago and one from 4 years ago.

As a midfield back myself I know that it is much more about how you work as a unit (10-12-13, plus whichever forwards decide to stand near you in the defensive line) than individual defenders. I'm sure Matt made defensive errors in those games but the unit just didn't work well together, particularly in the Samoa game. Similar to lineout failures (it usually isn't just the hooker's fault) I don't think he should carry the can alone for this one.

Also at his first season at Gloucester he was a regular and firm fans favourite, one of their top try scorers. i watch a lot of AP highlights and can't remember his defence being a big issue in Gloucester games.  This season he was out injured for a long time then fell out of favour with a new coaching set up so found his chances limited.

There's no doubting he has to improve in that aspect but a year is a very, very long time in rugby - let's see how he does this season before completely writing him off.

The difference between him and Horne/Grigg is that while they may have better defensive positioning, they are so small that sometimes physics just gets the better of them - Horne's speedbump failures for Scotland are well publicised and Grigg had a similar speedbump moment in the recent summer tour. If Matt can sort out his defensive positioning he has the physicality to shore up our midfield against the big boys (especially if Dunbar and Taylor are crocked).

To say that Sam Johnson (uncapped and not even SQ yet) is ahead of him in the pecking order when we've got several months and numerous games until the AIs.... picard

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 4:31 pm

Just my tuppence worth on centres (which btw was the only position I played in where I scored a hat-trick so I can safely say it's a pl5h easy position to play imo)

Pecking order for centres

Inside:
Taylor (if fit)
Dunbar (if fit)
Scott
Horne
Lang

Outside
Shug
Taylor (if fit)
Bennett
Dunbar (if fit)
Scott
A.N. Other (like Grigg, Harris, Fife, etc)

I know Jimbo will not be impressed but I still believe that Scott is a better centre (all round) than Horne.

I'll nail Bru's stones to the mast and say that barring inury, Matt Scott will be in the AI squad.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 4:58 pm

Tattie, I wouldn't disagree with you too much on your ranking.
If Toonie decides to take four centre, two 10's and an either or then it would most likely be

Dunbar-Jones
Taylor-Bennett
And Horne.
Although Toonie seems to be a big fan of Sam Johnson and he and Taylor might make a tasty 12-13.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 7:36 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:As a midfield back myself I know that it is much more about how you work as a unit (10-12-13, plus whichever forwards decide to stand near you in the defensive line) than individual defenders. I'm sure Matt made defensive errors in those games but the unit just didn't work well together, particularly in the Samoa game. Similar to lineout failures (it usually isn't just the hooker's fault) I don't think he should carry the can alone for this one.

I thought you were a winger? Have you got slow in your old age? Whistle

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 7:41 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:As a midfield back myself I know that it is much more about how you work as a unit (10-12-13, plus whichever forwards decide to stand near you in the defensive line) than individual defenders. I'm sure Matt made defensive errors in those games but the unit just didn't work well together, particularly in the Samoa game. Similar to lineout failures (it usually isn't just the hooker's fault) I don't think he should carry the can alone for this one.

I thought you were a winger? Have you got slow in your old age? Whistle
Laugh
In my younger days I was regularly but played most senior rugby centre or fullback! Wing occasionally too.


(Because I became old and slow)

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 8:51 am

Does Sam Johnson become SQ this summer?  I think he does.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if he gets a call up to the training squad in the AIs.  

I guess it depends on how Toonie plans to use that series, whether it's to try and get a few more players in to give us depth/options, or whether it's to settle on his WC squad and give them games as a unit.

If it was me, I'd be looking to give a few more players the chance to break into the team, whilst bringing in a few stalwarts around them.  For example we know Laidlaw is likely to be our starting 9, so would be interesting to see him alongside Hastings to see how they get on.  Likewise  Horne Jnr and Finn.  I know they have played a bit a club level, but would be interesting to see how they cope together at international level.

Similar with our centre combos, as I think as long as he's fit, Jones will be our starting 13, but due to Dunbar & Taylor being injured, or on the way back from injury, or about to get injured (they get a lot of injuries is the point I'm making here) I think there is the chance for someone to swoop in at 12.  I don't think the Jones at 12 experiment worked, and Harris is just not up to it, even against weaker opposition in the summer he was hardly a standout, so Toonie hopefully should try a few more options there to give us some depth.

I think Wales is our first game, and it's outwith the test window so only Edin & Glasgow players are likely to be available so I'd go with something along the following:

Dell
McInally
Berg
J.Gray
Gilco
Bradbury*
Watson
Wilson (pains me)*
Horne Jnr
Hastings
Seymour**
Dunbar
Jones
Kinghorn
Hogg

Bench
Sutherland***
Brown
Nel
Toolis
Ritchie
Price
Jackson
Bennett

* I'd be happier with Bradbury at 8, Wilson on the bench and Ritchie at 6
** I'm assuming last season was a blip and he'll be back to his storming best
*** I'm making another assumption that this season we'll see Rory back to his pre-injury form and in my opinion before he got injured he was the best LH in Scotland.  In the scum he was the equal of Dicko and in the loose he is far more mobile and effective.  I know it's a big ask as he's been a bit part since coming back from injury, but a full preseason behind him and a decent rest over the summer.  Big hopes.

For the rest of the series I would imagine we'll see a few others involved, some from the summer and others who were rested.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:06 am

Wales game aside I think we need to play our strongest team each game to really get the gameplan together for the world cup. Most other big nations had a full on 3 test summer tour whereas ours was experimental - the time for experimenting is over IMO.

I think he needs to decide on a core squad of 25/26 players and stick to them for the 3 big games in the AIs.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:34 am

yup, I agree with Rapidly Decelerating Winger

The AIs are for fine tuning the game plan (and developing a plan B or C) to take us into the 6ns where doing well in will give us momentum for the World Cup. The 6Ns will be really tough next year with away games to England and France and with Ireland hitting thier straps, even playing them at home will be a right tough one.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:37 am

I agree to an extent, I just think that in some positions, have we nailed down our best option? I’m not sure we have.

At centre, we know Jones is our best option at 13 (at least internationally) but at 12, do we know for sure? On paper Taylor, but he’s never fit, Dunbar, similar situation and I’m not sure his form justifies his selection at the moment (aware we still have a few months before the AIs so he could be back to his best). After that who is our best option at 12?

8 – Are we sure Wilson is the right man for the job? Is Denton? How about Blade Thomson (probably too soon for him to be fair), he might hit the ground running at Scarlets and could be the answer to our prayers at 8.

I agree we largely know who our strongest 15/23 is, but I think there are still a few positions up for grabs that need to be filled during the AIs. The majority of the team will be in place, but we can still bring in a few others to test them. On the basis we have the 6 nations to get the final team a run together, as well as pre WC warm up games, we can still do a bit of experimenting in the AIs without going mad.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:39 am

I think we're basically saying the same thing Spoons - he probably knows around 70-80% of his first choice 23 and the AIs will be a good opportunity to fill in the remainder. A big part of that will come down to form an injury.

I just don't think we should be giving many debuts or taking wholesale risks in the squad selection.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:41 am

Aye I'd agree with that, Toonie won't go mad, but there is a chance for one or two to be given a shot.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:42 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Aye I'd agree with that, Toonie won't go mad, but there is a chance for one or two to be given a shot.

Actually I've just remembered the tombola.....maybe he will?

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:48 am

EWT Spoons wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:Aye I'd agree with that, Toonie won't go mad, but there is a chance for one or two to be given a shot.

Actually I've just remembered the tombola.....maybe he will?

*Cue 'Cuban Pete' and maracas* SMEG YES.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 9:49 am

A very interesting post Mr Spoons.


It seems that Toonie will have a squad of 31 for the WC and most likely a forwards: backs split of 18:13. This is quite tight.


PACK: 9 front row, four second row, 5 back row. An injury to a second row or back row could seriously compromise team selection.


Pretty Boys: 3 scrum-halves, 2 stand offs, 4 centres, 4 back three. Doesn't leave us many options: two full backs and two wingers?


I think with those numbers then utility players become invaluable. Fraser Brown playing flanker. Swinson at 6. Furra Linee at 10 or 12. Kinghorn on the wing. Lang, again, a 10/12.


I think one of the things Toonie will be looking at in the AI's is who can play more than one role. (Oh for a fit and healthy Richie V).


So,

Turner, Rambo, Brown all have experience of playing back row.


Toonie fancies having a lock who can play 6. In Swinson's absence might we see The Giant Red Crayon as a 6 who can play second row? He is a very good line out option and is at least as big as Swinson and mighty aggressive in the tight. Although possibly not as fleet of foot as Carmichael or Cummings.


Tigertattie rated the 12's thus

Inside:
Taylor (if fit)
Dunbar (if fit)
Scott
Horne
Lang
The first two are probably our best options IF FIT but that's a mighty big if. Of the next three Scott is the only one with no recent experience of playing 10. So, I reckon Taylor and Dunbar as first choices which means Russell and another for the two 10 roles. IF Hastings nails the 10 berth at Scotstoun then it would probably be him. However, DR seems to see Furra Linee as his starting 10 at the moment. My guess is.... Dunbar as 12/13, Taylor as 12/13/wing, Horne 12/10, Huw Jones as 13. This would allow Hogg, Kinhorn, Seymour and Maitland as the back three options.


Half backs.


Horne, Frodo and Aldi Price.


Dancer and Hastings. If Hastings is playing 10 regularly for Glasgow. If not then Furra Linee as back up 10 and possibly Sam Johnson as a 12. Assuming one of Dunbar or Taylor is fit, they can both play 13 if needed and Johnson at 12 is "a second five eight" which Toonie and DR both like. ( In terms of Scotland's World Cup ambitions DR will make some big calls: he likes Horne-Horne- Johnson-Dunbar and is allegedly not getting on very well with Shug Jones).


So, in the AI's I think we'll see a few Tombola calls in terms of positions.

In Japan, sorry RDW, I don't think we'll see Matt Scott. Nor angel if Taylor and Dunbar make the trip.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:03 am

jimbopip wrote:A very interesting post Mr Spoons.


It seems that Toonie will have a squad of 31 for the WC and most likely a forwards: backs split of 18:13. This is quite tight.


PACK: 9 front row, four second row, 5 back row. An injury to a second row or back row could seriously compromise team selection.


Pretty Boys: 3 scrum-halves, 2 stand offs, 4 centres, 4 back three. Doesn't leave us many options: two full backs and two wingers?


I think with those numbers then utility players become invaluable. Fraser Brown playing flanker. Swinson at 6. Furra Linee at 10 or 12. Kinghorn on the wing. Lang, again, a 10/12.


I think one of the things Toonie will be looking at in the AI's is who can play more than one role. (Oh for a fit and healthy Richie V).


So,

Turner, Rambo, Brown all have experience of playing back row.


Toonie fancies having a lock who can play 6. In Swinson's absence might we see The Giant Red Crayon as a 6 who can play second row? He is a very good line out option and is at least as big as Swinson and mighty aggressive in the tight. Although possibly not as fleet of foot as Carmichael or Cummings.


Tigertattie rated the 12's thus

Inside:
Taylor (if fit)
Dunbar (if fit)
Scott
Horne
Lang
The first two are probably our best options IF FIT but that's a mighty big if. Of the next three Scott is the only one with no recent experience of playing 10. So, I reckon Taylor and Dunbar as first choices which means Russell and another for the two 10 roles. IF Hastings nails the 10 berth at Scotstoun then it would probably be him. However, DR seems to see Furra Linee as his starting 10 at the moment. My guess is.... Dunbar as 12/13, Taylor as 12/13/wing, Horne 12/10, Huw Jones as 13. This would allow Hogg, Kinhorn, Seymour and Maitland as the back three options.


Half backs.


Horne, Frodo and Aldi Price.


Dancer and Hastings. If Hastings is playing 10 regularly for Glasgow. If not then Furra Linee as back up 10 and possibly Sam Johnson as a 12. Assuming one of Dunbar or Taylor is fit, they can both play 13 if needed and Johnson at 12 is "a second five eight" which Toonie and DR both like. ( In terms of Scotland's World Cup ambitions DR will make some big calls: he likes Horne-Horne- Johnson-Dunbar and is allegedly not getting on very well with Shug Jones).


So, in the AI's I think we'll see a few Tombola calls in terms of positions.

In Japan, sorry RDW, I don't think we'll see Matt Scott. Nor angel if Taylor and Dunbar make the trip.

I still don't understand the shoehorning in of Dunbar into every squad. It's been about 2 seasons since we last got a good game out of him, for me he's back to square one, and unlike the tennis maternity leave he doesn't go straight back into the top seedings for me.

Taylor has shown more recent form but same applies again, for me it is vital he has a full season at Sarries (and doesn't kill himself through injury) before he can wear blue again, I really rate Taylor but would be hesitant about parachuting him into the WC squad on reputation.

For the Autumn, in my mind that leaves us with Johnson, Dean, Lang and Scott as our options at IC. There is room for a couple of bolters and I do wonder if Stafford McDowell could make the pro step up next season as he's looked nifty there. For the Autumn, I'd say Johnson is probably first choice on form at the moment for lack of other viable options. If Scott plays IC with Bennett outside him at Edinburgh that could change the dynamic for selection quite a bit.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:14 am

Don't disagree with anything you say there Neily.

On Warriors TV this week Dunbar was saying it's the first pre-season in 6 years when he hasn't been injured Shocked Also the first in 8 or 9 years where he wasn't in "the Fat Club". Certainly the video clip of him running showed a very sleek looking lad. If he keeps fit and healthy then he's a certainty: if Johnson keeps him out of the 12 jersey then Smiling Sam is on the plane for me.


Taylor is a mighty impressive player, but I'm worried that he's had too many head knocks. I'll be very pleased if he gets through this season.


If Cockers sees Scott as his first choice 12 then things become very interesting. My concern is that if he wasn't good enough to play 12 at Glaws is he good enough for Scotland?

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:19 am

jimbopip wrote:Don't disagree with anything you say there Neily.

On Warriors TV this week Dunbar was saying it's the first pre-season in 6 years when he hasn't been injured Shocked Also the first in 8 or 9 years where he wasn't in "the Fat Club".  Certainly the video clip of him running showed a very sleek looking lad. If he keeps fit and healthy then he's a certainty: if Johnson keeps him out of the 12 jersey then Smiling Sam is on the plane for me.


Taylor is a mighty impressive player, but I'm worried that he's had too many head knocks. I'll be very pleased if he gets through this season.


If Cockers sees Scott as his first choice 12 then things become very interesting.  My concern is that if he wasn't good enough to play 12 at Glaws is he good enough for Scotland?

The problem was he was up against Twelvetrees who for better or worse was first choice at the time of his joining and was often captain of Glaws.

I honestly think he has a lot more to offer at 12 than at 13, he's not as bulky as some but he's bigger than Horne, is a good distributor, and understands the position well, and of course has played there before for Scotland.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:31 am

Jimbo that's probably the most insightful and sensible post I've ever seen from you!

On Matt Scott I agree there's a fair chance he won't make the squad, but he does have a chance and given the uncertainty around our centres just now a good season at Edinburgh could put him right back in the picture. He also covers 12 and 13 - Sam Johnson is very much just a 12 IMO so lacks the versatility you need in a squad (as well as being uncapped!)

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:32 am

NeilyBroon wrote:

I still don't understand the shoehorning in of Dunbar into every squad. It's been about 2 seasons since we last got a good game out of him, for me he's back to square one, and unlike the tennis maternity leave he doesn't go straight back into the top seedings for me.

Taylor has shown more recent form but same applies again, for me it is vital he has a full season at Sarries (and doesn't kill himself through injury) before he can wear blue again, I really rate Taylor but would be hesitant about parachuting him into the WC squad on reputation.

For the Autumn, in my mind that leaves us with Johnson, Dean, Lang and Scott as our options at IC. There is room for a couple of bolters and I do wonder if Stafford McDowell could make the pro step up next season as he's looked nifty there. For the Autumn, I'd say Johnson is probably first choice on form at the moment for lack of other viable options. If Scott plays IC with Bennett outside him at Edinburgh that could change the dynamic for selection quite a bit.

Whilst I agree to an extent about Dunbar, I think Toonie really likes him and as such he’s going to be nailed on if fit and playing.  He’s not shown the form we know him for, for a while, but if he’s fit he’s likely first choice 12.  

Taylor, I’m willing to discount as an option.  I know that seems drastic, but he’s never fit for us.  If he’s fit it’s a bonus rather than something we should be planning for.

If Lang isn’t playing then he’s likely to fall down the pecking order.  Dean hasn’t been given a look-in, so can’t see him coming in for the Autumn, nor has Johnson (aware that’s down to eligibility at this point).  I think if Lang isn’t getting game time then our likely 12 going into the Autumn is Horne, with Scott/Johnson fighting it out for a potential back up slot.

I don’t think McDowell will be a bolter, as he would need to break into the Glasgow team and have an absolute blinder for the first couple of months to get into consideration for the autumn.   To get into the WC squad he would likely need to be playing like Sonny Bill in every game at club level, which whilst he seems a talented lad who could have a decent future, I’m not sure he’s at that level….yet.

As you say though, if Scott and Bennett are playing week in week out at Edinburgh and doing well, then that could be a game changer as the dynamic is there.  But likewise that could apply to the Glasgow centres, with Dunbar and Jones, Johnson and Jones/Grigg etc, with Finn at 10 and possibly Wilson at 8.  There is a strong understanding there, assuming Finn doesn’t totally forget how to play with them now he’s moved.

There are a number of players who need to have strong seasons with their clubs to force themselves into the conversation.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:39 am

jimbopip wrote:Don't disagree with anything you say there Neily.

On Warriors TV this week Dunbar was saying it's the first pre-season in 6 years when he hasn't been injured Shocked Also the first in 8 or 9 years where he wasn't in "the Fat Club".  Certainly the video clip of him running showed a very sleek looking lad. If he keeps fit and healthy then he's a certainty: if Johnson keeps him out of the 12 jersey then Smiling Sam is on the plane for me.

Taylor is a mighty impressive player, but I'm worried that he's had too many head knocks. I'll be very pleased if he gets through this season.

If Cockers sees Scott as his first choice 12 then things become very interesting.  My concern is that if he wasn't good enough to play 12 at Glaws is he good enough for Scotland?

Interesting post Jimbo, especially the bit in bold. If this is true, then I really hope Dunbar show's us what he can do without an injury, as it's been a while.

I agree with you on Taylor, as I said in another post I'm discounting him from an option currently, as he's rarely available, and to be honest it might be better for his long term health to knock international rugby on the head (no pun intended) and just focus on playing at club level.

On Scott, he hasn't played for Scotland for a couple of years, but players can improve. I was worried at the time of his shoulder injury as he wasn't the strongest defensively following it, but I can't see Cockers letting him away with that at Edinburgh. He's a big(ish) lad and his distribution at 12 is impressive, so I'm interested to see how he gets on at Edinburgh. Realistically if everyone else was fit and playing well then not sure he'd be in with a shout for the autumn and potentially the WC, but given the situation we are in, he could come into consideration.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:40 am

chin Johnson-Scott

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 10:43 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Jimbo that's probably the most insightful and sensible post I've ever seen from you!


O ye of little faith.

If you look back through your posts you'll be (pleasantly) surprised by how many times you have said that, or something similar. Hug

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 11:17 am

jimbopip wrote:chin Johnson-Scott

is that the reverse of Scott Johnson? Does he play below the ground?

On Scott I think he may come good for us (for Edinburgh and Scotland). He's a very good player and he was only "struggling" at Glaws due to 36 being the club captain and as an Engurlund elite player, Glaws get paid money from the RFU to play him. 36 as club captain would have his fans in the cheery and white brigade but many a Glaws fan would say that Scott was the better player so to me that's saying something!
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 11:19 am

tigertattie wrote:
jimbopip wrote:chin Johnson-Scott

is that the reverse of Scott Johnson? Does he play below the ground?

On Scott I think he may come good for us (for Edinburgh and Scotland). He's a very good player and he was only "struggling" at Glaws due to 36 being the club captain and as an Engurlund elite player, Glaws get paid money from the RFU to play him. 36 as club captain would have his fans in the cheery and white brigade but many a Glaws fan would say that Scott was the better player so to me that's saying something!

Laugh clap

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 11:39 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
jimbopip wrote:chin Johnson-Scott

is that the reverse of Scott Johnson? Does he play below the ground?

On Scott I think he may come good for us (for Edinburgh and Scotland). He's a very good player and he was only "struggling" at Glaws due to 36 being the club captain and as an Engurlund elite player, Glaws get paid money from the RFU to play him. 36 as club captain would have his fans in the cheery and white brigade but many a Glaws fan would say that Scott was the better player so to me that's saying something!

Laugh clap


Johnson Scott
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by IanBru on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 11:42 am

jimbopip wrote:chin Johnson-Scott
Incidentally, Johnson Scott was my nom de guerre during my porn career in Antwerp.

My career was short-lived.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 12:48 pm

IanBru wrote:
jimbopip wrote:chin Johnson-Scott
Incidentally, Johnson Scott was my nom de guerre during my porn career in Antwerp.

My career was short-lived.

was it just the career that was short?
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by 12345678910 on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 12:50 pm

I think the 12 shirt is one of the few big question marks left in the Scotland team certainly in the backs. Hogg has the 15 shirt nailed on for years to come, you'd have to have a time machine to find viable competition for Russell (although a 2010 Dan Parks on the bench would be exceptional at times when we need a cool head), Jones has the 13 shirt and Bennett will have to return to his best and more to usurp him and the two wings seem to be between Kinghorn, Seymour and Maitland. At 9 we have Laidlaw who seems to be the incumbent and then a battle between three good young 9s to be his understudy. All in all not a bad backline, 12 however, is an issue.

If we consider Bennett and Jones to be the out and out 13 that leaves us with Dunbar, Scott, Taylor, Lang and Horne. Taylor, to me, is head and shoulders above the rest of them and would fit seamlessly into our current backline and, on form, would make it even more dangerous. At the beginning of the Six Nations we had three game breakers in Russell, Jones and Hogg, add Kinghorn, George Horne and Duncan Taylor in there and you have a defender (and probably coach's nightmare). But he's missed the best part of the year of rugby and whether he could reach that standard again or even if he should try to is up for debate. Dunbar, as things stand, is at the back of the queue for me. Unsurprisingly for a person with knee issues, he's lost a fair bit of pace. The problem is that when a player like him loses pace his ability to hit lines as well and his offloading and handling game is not really good enough to be effective without pace. When a centre has no little pace, little in the way of a kicking game and limited handling ability he becomes what is known as a Graeme Morrison. I do hope Dunbar gets his mojo back as defensively he is a massive turnover threat and adds ballast to the team. But he very much so falls into the Taylor category of "if he returns to his best". Scott is similar to both of these but needs to work on his defence, I can't see him lasting long with Cockerill without improving it rapidly, Cockerill got Anthony Allan playing very good, intelligent rugby for Leicester and hopefully can do the same for Scott. Lang we don't know enough about but quite frankly needs to play more often for Quins to really compete for a place in the big matches but as a big lad with a decent skill set he has the opportunity to become what Taylor and Dunbar have largely been prevented from. Horne is the biggest enigma of the lot for me, I think he's probably the most natural rugby player of the lot, possibly one of the most natural rugby players in the British game but he seems to have a mistake quota he's intent on filling every time he plays for Scotland. Missed big tackle, tick, dropped pass, tick, botched 2 on 1, tick. And recently he's started giving himself a bonus point for an interception pass on top of that.
I'd probably put the pecking order as: Taylor, Horne, Scott, Dunbar, Lang although I suspect Toonie has it slightly different


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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 2:56 pm

Taylor, Dunbar, Scott, Bennett, Jones

Tell you what, we've come along way from Andy Henderson, Greame Morrison and Marcus Di Rollo!
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by 12345678910 on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 3:12 pm

Or the occasion that after Graeme Morrison was injured their literally was not another fit professional inside centre in/ from Scotland. Think we had ansbro and de Luca playing together. And then there was the Lamont experiment.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 3:34 pm

To be fair, De Luca was a good player for Edinburgh. Just gash for the national team. Very much like Pete Horne!

And as for Lamont! Legend! He'd have played anywhere the coach wanted him to! He's even packed down in the scrum for us before and I always said she should have played on for another year but moved to blindside flanker!
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 3:40 pm

If Lamont had moved to centre earlier in his career and played there more often he might have been a good option. Problem is he moved there when he'd lost all his speed, and didn't play regularly enough to develop his skillset.

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 4:19 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:If Lamont had moved to centre earlier in his career and played there more often he might have been a good option. Problem is he moved there when he'd lost all his speed, and didn't play regularly enough to develop his skillset.

Skillset? Centres and Wingers don't need skills!!!!
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 4:22 pm

tigertattie wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:If Lamont had moved to centre earlier in his career and played there more often he might have been a good option. Problem is he moved there when he'd lost all his speed, and didn't play regularly enough to develop his skillset.

Skillset? Centres and Wingers don't need skills!!!!
Headscratch

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by 12345678910 on Sat 07 Jul 2018, 5:46 pm

Sean Lamont was a very good rugby player in his prime and actually did a decent job at 13 on occasion if I remember correctly. He was however completely unable to pass a rugby ball. That being said that a player with his limited skillset and rapidly decreasing pace playing international rugby in 2017 is a testament to sheer bloody-mindedness and if all of our players had his attitude and commitment we'd be a much better rugby nation for it.

Still a terrible inside centre though

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by George Carlin on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 6:55 am

jimbopip wrote:RDW, it's not an aversion or disdain it's an objective assessment of where he's at as a player.

Jim?
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by jimbopip on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 11:00 am

George Carlin wrote:
jimbopip wrote:RDW, it's not an aversion or disdain it's an objective assessment of where he's at as a player.

Jim?

Is this an objective assessment of where I'm at as a fashion icon?

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 12:54 pm

Isn't that thon Zoltar boy that made Tom Hanks into a boy?
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 12:56 pm

Looks like Monty Python

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 10:19 am

More importantly. Did I win an award?
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by George Carlin on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 8:24 am

jimbopip wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
jimbopip wrote:RDW, it's not an aversion or disdain it's an objective assessment of where he's at as a player.

Jim?

Is this an objective assessment of where I'm at as a fashion icon?
Monty Python's take on god. The only being apart from Jim who has ultimate objectivity. And even then Jim's a bit biased.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by tigertattie on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 9:39 am

A bit?

He's a Glasgow fan

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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

Post by IanBru on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:26 am

tigertattie wrote:A bit?

He's a Glasgow fan

That's not really fair, Tiger. Jim's had his hair cut since that picture.
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Re: Scotland end of season summary and awards

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