England Summer Tour - Part 2

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England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 5:19 am

First topic message reminder :

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't get the point in the Cipriani experiment...and I don't get why Robson was taken.

Eddie Jones just baffles me. What is actually going on in his head. Whats his plans with people like this..and Mark Wilson?? etc. Why does he manage people like this.

Pick them for tours then not even look at them again until another meaningless tour needs some bodies to fill the squad.


At least Cipriani is getting a start. I was wondering if Eddie only took him on tour to stop him signing a big money contract overseas. It does seem strange that Robson has not had even a sniff, especially with Danny-boy starting this test. Supposedly the weather is meant to be wet and windy tomorrow so maybe Jones thinks the Wasp's game is not tight enough?

Wilson has at least added marginally to his tally of caps - but Jones does seem to view him as an inferior alternative to Robshaw.

I agree that's how he probably does see him, and probably a large majority of England fans aswell. However in that case why bother taking him. Why not take the young potential in both Curry's to see if they can eclipse Robshaw. Why has Simmonds not even had a minute on the pitch.
Why is Mercer not getting games.
Why take Ben Earl??


His whole management just confuses me a lot.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 4:21 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I didn't think Daly did too bad in SA, two matches at altitude where the ball carries further than at sea level and on rock hard pitches where the bounce is accentuated, he is the future and needs to have that kind of experience to progress. The stats show that SA are much better at altitude and I do not think that that is purely down to the thinner air; the way the ball flies and bounces is very different to that at lower levels and needs some getting used to.

I would persevere with him for the AIs to see what he can do in "normal" conditions. As well as Brown played I still think a back three of Daly, May and Watson, with Ashton possible as well is the way to go, Brown is always going to struggle for pace against fast wingers as was shown in both the Barbarians and SA tests.

Mike Brown did play well in the main (out of position) but.....................................

Picking him at FB will not be a disgrace, but if England truly want to be the best they can be he is, imo, not the answer. I would be happy to give Daly another run at 15 come the AIs, when hopefully Watson and Nowell will be fir to offer options on the wing.

As to kicking at altitude. While the long penalty goal from Daly sticks in the memory, we should not forget that all our kickers tended to be kicking the ball too far in the rarefied air - a clear sign of the lack of training in those conditions.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 4:29 am

I would stick with Daly as well. He's a quality player, with pace, skills etc.

Just needs to learn the position. Problem is with Le Roux at Wasps he's not likely to play there for club.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 5:59 am

Few guys came away from that tour with credit in the bank.
For me -

Curry - excellent for his starts, with a number of good turnovers. Could still do with a bit more bulking up and work on his ball carrying options.
Marler - showed what we were missing in the pack for that final test
Makko - Offers so much in the loose, but was running on empty for T2 and possibly had his head elsewhere for that match too.

Daly is a credible 15, I have my bias and feel that Brown offers a bit of 'dog', but recent inconsistent form has forced us to look elsewhere. Watson when given the chance had a howler at 15!

Those are the notable positives - But I do feel that EJ will pick a much fresher looking squad for the Nov tests.

I cant see Manu getting parachuted straight back into the squads! Unless he rips it up at the start of the season.......but from what I saw last season his fitness was questionable, positioning was out and he looked pretty rusty (understandable for the amount of time away from the game).
The other thing we need to see is that Billy V isn't fast tracked - if he's done the same arm as previously then his re-had needs to be taken very seriously. England need a credible alternative to Bully at no.8 - Hughes has been found wanting, but I would question if he was 100% either (he certainly wasn't in the 6N). Do we persevere with Sam Simmonds?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 7:38 am

Could we see Ashton come into the reckoning at 15? He played there for Toulon and will likely play there for Sale. His tracking game obviously becomes more of a threat from 15, but his defensive positioning against England for the Barbarians wasn't all there in my opinion - but that could be a system issue. Ashton at 15, with Brown, Watson, Nowell and May all available, could also free up Daly to have a go at sorting out the problematic midfield.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by hugehandoff on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 9:13 am

I am certainly not against giving Daly further opportunities in the AIs. As for Manu of course it goes without saying that he would need to earn selection based on form displayed over at least 8 club matches. If he appears to be over his injury problems and is playing well then he would be a great addition. If not then hopefully T'eo is available. I feel having a bigger person creates a better balanced set of backs. Ashton is either on the wing or not at all for me - his defence is not good enough. But as an active tracking wing he could make the squad for sure. Nowell is too slow, but he offers a good bench option as he covers so many positions and is busy.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 2:40 pm

Why does it seem everyone is breaking down right when we need everyone rested and building up for the season. Half our comments are about players playing injured, wondering if players are injured, players returning from injuries, or if players are simply wearing down or breaking down after too much Rugby.

For instance, we really don't know if Mike Brown is near the end of the road or needs a major league rest. Personally, I see the latter: He looks like a player trying to gut out every performance when, instead, he needs about 4 months off. So, he could be replaced by Watson (coming back from injury), Nowell (coming back from injury), or Daly (who doesn't play 15 much for his club). And Daly, if not at 15, could be considered at 13, except that we have JJ (coming back from injury), Te'o (coming back from injury), or Manu (forever coming back from injury). We could repeat that same discussion at virtually every position.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by hugehandoff on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 4:12 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Why does it seem everyone is breaking down right when we need everyone rested and building up for the season.  Half our comments are about players playing injured, wondering if players are injured, players returning from injuries, or if players are simply wearing down or breaking down after too much Rugby.  

For instance, we really don't know if Mike Brown is near the end of the road or needs a major league rest.  Personally, I see the latter:  He looks like a player trying to gut out every performance when, instead, he needs about 4 months off.  So, he could be replaced by Watson (coming back from injury), Nowell (coming back from injury), or Daly (who doesn't play 15 much for his club).  And Daly, if not at 15, could be considered at 13, except that we have JJ (coming back from injury), Te'o (coming back from injury), or Manu (forever coming back from injury).   We could repeat that same discussion at virtually every position.

The obvious answer is the lack of central contracts. Ireland and Wales (as well as NZ) are able to give their players the proper rest when required. The Irish Lions played about a 1/3 of their English counterparts. Our boys are simply knackered from too much rugby. Eddie needed to be brave and leave a few behind this summer, but he was not.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 2:13 am

Hugehandoff OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 7:01 am

Maybe the story would have been different if England had a successful 6N. As it was Eddie obviously felt he still needed to take plenty of senior players - and the gamble didn't pay off.
I agree hugehandoff - we should have sent out a Saxons touring party to SA.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:23 am

You can't get away with B squads in summer tours any more. I'm sure the SH teams kicked off about it and we agreed that we wouldn't do it anymore. This is the only article I could find plugging a few keywords into google though: http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12317/4434969/antipodeans-in-boycott-threat

It's a fair enough gripe. The paying public in these countries do not want to see B squads, and why should they give us proper tests if we don't return the favour?

You can rest a few players, and Eddie did with Hartley, Cole, Haskell and Care (possibly others), but any more and we'd be accused of taking the mickey a bit.

I don't think there will be an issue with regards to fatigue by the world cup unless the England camp mess up their preparations and overtrain. There is plenty of time between the end of the season and the start of the World Cup to give everyone the rest they need. The only issue is if a player gets run into the ground and ends up injured and fighting for fitness before the World Cup, so in that respect I hope Eddie uses his resources carefully.

Ideally I would like to see him go full strength against SA and NZ in the autumn and then ring some changes for Japan and Australia. But if he has any question marks over players coming back from injury, I'd hope he would hold them back until the Six Nations.

He can then look to rotate his squad across the 5 games to make sure he always plays a strong team, but potentially gets to try our a few permutations before the World Cup.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 7:42 pm

You mean like the England team were over trained pre 6Ns? Or have run players like Billy and Hughes into the ground rushing them back from injury?

Add to that screwing up training for the first Test at altitude as well.

Somehow they do not fill me with confidence.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by propdavid_london on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 4:46 am

I cant remember who it was - Might have been Campese or Lynagh did say something at the start of Jone's appointment about Eddies training regime having a long term negative impact on the Oz squad at the time.
Starts with first team players regularly not being fit for matches and then ultimately ends with the players not buying into the systems.

Now, I am not saying that's what is happening here - I would hate for campo to be right, but there are similarities.

Preparation was wrong in the 6N and wrong for the tour. We've got Nov and the 6N to get those things corrected.
I remain positive that they will be corrected.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by hugehandoff on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 5:01 am

I don't think we needed to go as far as a Saxons squad, but more Lions should have been rested. Attwood, especially as returning to Bath, should have gone instead of Itoje. Mako needed a rest and Marler could have started more as he did have a few breaks during the season (suspension?). Sinckler has hardly started for England so he needed to go so all in all we would still have sent a strong squad.

With the RWC in mind the brave decisions needed to be made to ensure our best players arrive in good shape and are not knackered out. I think EJs really missed a trick this summer as our privately owned clubs will be playing them all from the start for sure.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 5:23 am

robbo277 wrote:You can't get away with B squads in the summer tours any more
That’s right. The arrogance of talking about sending B teams south in June to ‘rest’ the poor babies that are a little wittle bit tired and then expect A teams sent north in November to fill the coffers.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Poorfour on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 8:39 am

I actually think the team looked OK on tour. The results were disappointing but there were plenty of aspects that worked well.

The acclimatisation was clearly all wrong for the first two tests (and having spent some time at altitude, I am surprised at the approach they took to it), but before they ran out of puff the attack was working and the final test showed some positive signs. Most important was Curry probably establishing himself as the test openside.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Taylorman on Fri 06 Jul 2018, 6:28 pm

ebop wrote:
robbo277 wrote:You can't get away with B squads in the summer tours any more
That’s right. The arrogance of talking about sending B teams south in June to ‘rest’ the poor babies that are a little wittle bit tired and then expect A teams sent north in November to fill the coffers.

True ebop, last year that lovely eddie bloke said NZ have weaknesses, significant ones. I wont tell you about them now but I will in 2018.

Seven months in Eddie, ready to share yet?

If he’d watch Reads return and the AB form in the Saders Higlanders matches yesterday I wonder if hes tweaking his coments yet? Or perhaps hes better things to do?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Sat 07 Jul 2018, 5:48 am

Taylorman wrote:
ebop wrote:
robbo277 wrote:You can't get away with B squads in the summer tours any more
That’s right. The arrogance of talking about sending B teams south in June to ‘rest’ the poor babies that are a little wittle bit tired and then expect A teams sent north in November to fill the coffers.

True ebop, last year that lovely eddie bloke said NZ have weaknesses, significant ones. I wont tell you about them now but I will in 2018.

Seven months in Eddie, ready to share yet?

If he’d watch Reads return and the AB form in the Saders Higlanders matches yesterday I wonder if hes tweaking his coments yet? Or perhaps hes better things to do?
Laugh Very good Tman, Eddie would know all about significant weaknesses given his current situation. Fancy making statements like that and then presiding over a 6 game losing streak, the cheek of it. I’ve noticed Eddie doesn’t talk much about the ABs these days. Probably a good call for his own credibility’s sake.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 07 Jul 2018, 6:07 am

I’ve noticed Eddie doesn’t talk much about the ABs these days. Probably a good call for his own credibility’s sake.



Pity some Kiwis don't follow his lead and stop talking about England

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Taylorman on Sat 07 Jul 2018, 5:13 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I’ve noticed Eddie doesn’t talk much about the ABs these days. Probably a good call for his own credibility’s sake.



Pity some Kiwis don't follow his lead and stop talking about England

Who mentioned England? This was about Eddie the Eagle II and the ABs. Neither are English.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 12:12 am

Taylorman wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I’ve noticed Eddie doesn’t talk much about the ABs these days. Probably a good call for his own credibility’s sake.



Pity some Kiwis don't follow his lead and stop talking about England

Who mentioned England? This was about Eddie the Eagle II and the ABs. Neither are English.
Exactly Tman, people think this is England bashing but it’s really just having a giggle at Eddie

He went out of his way to stick his neck out and it’s only fair to have a hack at it. The poor guy and his team got a bit ahead of themselves with all this #1 talk and he should learn from some of the better coaches like Hansen and Schmidt in how to develop a team and manage players and expectations.

Being Australian and from a ‘scummy shyte little place’ I doubt it’s in his DNA and he’ll go back to his delusions if they rack up a couple of scratchy wins.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 3:13 am

To be fair EJ does bring it on himself. If you're happy to dish out the comments when you're winning, you should be able to suck it up when you're not.

I think the SA tour was a marginal success. Winning at altitude was always a big ask, but we did ok against a decent SA side. I do think we've corrected some of the problems in the 6N and the AI will be a true bench mark of where we are currently at. I'm fancying 3 wins and a loss to NZ by 10pts or so. Curry seems to be nailing down the 7 which has been such an issue for the last 10 years.

Although I don't think for a minute that NZ are unbeatable, they can still be got at. What they are doing is tightening up on relative weaknesses over the years (scrum the big one here for me), whilst other positions are not quite as good as previous seasons (openside and centre).

I still think they are extremely reliant on Retallick and Read being fit to be fully on their A game. If those 2 are injured we could see a few issues in the AI's and I'd fancy a few closer games for sure.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 4:06 am

Can't ebob and the tman just pm each other so we are spared their insightful gospel? Honestly it does get incredibly tiresome seeing two guys banter with each other when only they find it funny. Is there a way of blocking them out?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 4:25 am

Yoda, who do you reckon will be your captain at the RWC? Do you reckon Eddie has someone in mind.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 7:12 am

ebop wrote:He went out of his way to stick his neck out and it’s only fair to have a hack at it. The poor guy and his team got a bit ahead of themselves with all this #1 talk and he should learn from some of the better coaches like Hansen and Schmidt in how to develop a team and manage players and expectations.
Sgt_Pooly wrote:To be fair EJ does bring it on himself. If you're happy to dish out the comments when you're winning, you should be able to suck it up when you're not.
I think you guys are absolutely right.  A perfect example of the old expression about if one can dish it out he had better be able to take it.  Eddie has always had a an annoying manner about him.  And when the team was winning he left himself no wiggle room for when the inevitable losses happened.  I remember back in 2003 Eddie and Clive would go at it hammer and tongs.  I can't recall many England supporters who thought him warm and cuddly back then and would have invited him over for tea and crumpets.

I think the problem with the #1 talk was how he did it.  After all, when England was winning all those matches, what else would be his motivational goal?  But again, there are ways to do things, and annoying the rest of the world is usually not the best way to go about things.  On the other hand, is quiet something Eddie does well?  

And regarding man management, this has not been good.  I think it was bad to bring players on tour who are just coming back from injuries - it would not have been 'bringing a second side' if recently recovered or recovering players were left at home.  It would have been simply bringing the best available - and healthy - players.  It seemed to me that Eddie brought players like Billy, Hughes, Brown, and so on because he wanted to snag a couple of wins to take pressure off a poor end to the 6 Nations.  Let's hope the clubs take better care of their players...…...

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 3:30 pm

We seen NZ without Read and Retallick in the autumn. They were still able to score a lot of tries through their wingers. So it’s Read, Retallick and all the wingers they need to lose to be got at.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 08 Jul 2018, 11:01 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:We seen NZ without Read and Retallick in the autumn. They were still able to score a lot of tries through their wingers. So it’s Read, Retallick and all the wingers they need to lose to be got at.

This was France and they're at home, it's not really a solid test. If NZ lose Read and Retallick, I'd give the UK and Ireland sides a realistic chance. They have about 50 top class wingers anyway, it's really an area they're going to struggle in.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 12:07 am

Looking forward to seeing how Shields gets on in the AP, lots of new big names in the tournament for next season which'll be good competition for the England boys.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by kingelderfield on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 1:03 am

Shields is still playing in NZ so can't see him playing in the AP for some time.
The other bloke, the replacement 10, looks to be having a basket case moment, not as much as Burns on leaving Gloucester, but certainly a loss of form that will worry already concerned Wasps fans.
Getting rid of Cipriani was a mistake.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 8:35 am

kingelderfield wrote:Shields is still playing in NZ so can't see him playing in the AP for some time.
Why would Wasps rest him? It's fairly common for Super Rugby recruits to hit the ground running. Wasps might also lose him to England, so they'll have an incentive to get a return on their investment early in the season.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 4:55 pm

I always thought the Highlanders 10 was the least skilled of the prospective NZ 10s on SR sides currently, I think he bit his peak in '15 when they won the competition but won't get there again.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Taylorman on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 3:54 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To be fair EJ does bring it on himself. If you're happy to dish out the comments when you're winning, you should be able to suck it up when you're not.

I think the SA tour was a marginal success. Winning at altitude was always a big ask, but we did ok against a decent SA side. I do think we've corrected some of the problems in the 6N and the AI will be a true bench mark of where we are currently at. I'm fancying 3 wins and a loss to NZ by 10pts or so. Curry seems to be nailing down the 7 which has been such an issue for the last 10 years.

Although I don't think for a minute that NZ are unbeatable, they can still be got at. What they are doing is tightening up on relative weaknesses over the years (scrum the big one here for me), whilst other positions are not quite as good as previous seasons (openside and centre).

I still think they are extremely reliant on Retallick and Read being fit to be fully on their A game. If those 2 are injured we could see a few issues in the AI's and I'd fancy a few closer games for sure.

Yep agree with that, we are just used to Eddie over the years putting his foot in his mouth. Agree we arent unbeatable and I think the key will be our midfield. Front five will be fine as will the loosies with an on form Read, 6 looking very competitive atm, I think we’re going to find another special player there by Japan time. Cane could be better and will be, though Im not an Ardie fan and Todd is too lightweight for this mission. We need to find some support there.

For me the big question is everyone applying the rush defence as a means to stop the AB attack. The Lions managed it best and the French at times here. The Rugby championship will see it again and a lot of analysis going on here is how the ABs will break up a continuous rush defence, one being to vary the pod numbers, and attack directions, pulling the defence in quickly then out, in then wide, left right etc.

Having Ben Smith in, and Reiko, Naholo etc on the outsides ready for the rush failing at all times.

If we cant get our backs away the other option is to go up the middle continuously, in Fosters words go through rather than around until the back breaks, worked in test 3.

Theres still a chance though that these could fail, and a low scoring match means its anyones game.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 8:40 am

Taylorman wrote:Yep agree with that

No idea what you wrote after that, I think I fainted.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by hugehandoff on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 9:51 am

That Damian McKenzie looks on fire at the moment. He has been playing at 10 for his SR side? Genuine competition for Bauden? Or will they just stick him at 15?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by ebop on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 4:01 pm

DMac has incredible burst speed that can destroy a tiring defence so probably a super-sub role at either 10 or 15 like Beauden was before DC retired and Cruden went offshore. Beauden is #1 and will be for the foreseeable future with Dmac and Mo'unga yapping at his heels to keep him honest. Mo'unga is very good but a specialist 10.
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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Taylorman on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 7:35 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:To be fair EJ does bring it on himself. If you're happy to dish out the comments when you're winning, you should be able to suck it up when you're not.

I think the SA tour was a marginal success. Winning at altitude was always a big ask, but we did ok against a decent SA side. I do think we've corrected some of the problems in the 6N and the AI will be a true bench mark of where we are currently at. I'm fancying 3 wins and a loss to NZ by 10pts or so. Curry seems to be nailing down the 7 which has been such an issue for the last 10 years.

Although I don't think for a minute that NZ are unbeatable, they can still be got at. What they are doing is tightening up on relative weaknesses over the years (scrum the big one here for me), whilst other positions are not quite as good as previous seasons (openside and centre).

I still think they are extremely reliant on Retallick and Read being fit to be fully on their A game. If those 2 are injured we could see a few issues in the AI's and I'd fancy a few closer games for sure.

Yep agree with that, we are just used to Eddie over the years putting his foot in his mouth. Agree we arent unbeatable and I think the key will be our midfield. Front five will be fine as will the loosies with an on form Read, 6 looking very competitive atm, I think we’re going to find another special player there by Japan time. Cane could be better and will be, though Im not an Ardie fan and Todd is too lightweight for this mission. We need to find some support there.

For me the big question is everyone applying the rush defence as a means to stop the AB attack. The Lions managed it best and the French at times here. The Rugby championship will see it again and a lot of analysis going on here is how the ABs will break up a continuous rush defence, one being to vary the pod numbers, and attack directions, pulling the defence in quickly then out, in then wide, left right etc.

Having Ben Smith in, and Reiko, Naholo etc on the outsides ready for the rush failing at all times.

If we cant get our backs away the other option is to go up the middle continuously, in Fosters words go through rather than around until the back breaks, worked in test 3.

Theres still a chance though that these could fail, and a low scoring match means its anyones game.

You said they were unbeatable, and the consensus is to beat them, you have to get in their faces, you have to rush defence them. You wont outskill them, you have to deny them.

And that has worked to a point in recent years. Where you see them as positionally weak its in the tactics that sides will beat them. You think Canes weak but the margin you think any other flanker will get over Cane will not be earh shattering, it will be slim to neglible, if that. Winning test rugby isnt just about targetting the odd player you think is weak, its about producing a system the whole team contribute to to overcome the opposition. No side will put a better 23 individuals on the field, but together, they could beat them.

Many other factors than weak individuals come into play there.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Taylorman on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 7:43 pm

ebop wrote:DMac has incredible burst speed that can destroy a tiring defence so probably a super-sub role at either 10 or 15 like Beauden was before DC retired and Cruden went offshore. Beauden is #1 and will be for the foreseeable future with Dmac and Mo'unga yapping at his heels to keep him honest. Mo'unga is very good but a specialist 10.

Like Barrett they still have issues and can be shut down. Both either fire or not and thats a bit concerning. Carter and Crudens strengths were in managing what came at them better, they coped better without being as regularly spectacular as Barrett and Mckenzie who one poster this way says watch DMac you just cant get the Benny Hill music out of your head.

When players lije that get shut down completely everything goes to sleep until they snapout of it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont, and thats a risk in an extra pressure filled WCup knockout match.

Happened in 03, ABs failed to get going at all against an oz side determined to close them down. Same with England and Ireland recently.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 3:33 am

I didn't say NZ were unbeatable.

I agree to a point, it's the NZ way of playing that teams need to know how to stop and counter. But, with personnel changes that system can falter somewhat. Barrett is a step down on Retallick (most locks are tbh) and whoever plays at 8 is a step down on Read. These 2 players are the real driving force of your pack imo.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 4:52 am

New Zealand are most definitely not unbeatable. Fantastic player that he is Beauden Barrett has a kicking game that can be a definite weakness (from hand and off the tee).

To beat NZ you must front up in the forwards and get them on the back foot, then your defence needs to be aggressive and in their face. Finally you have to take your chances. (of course arguably this applies to all teams). After suffering a complete humping in the first test last year, the Lions showed that the World Champs are most definitely fallible and Barrett's weaknesses came to the fore - better kicking and perhaps all 3 tests would have been won.

Last summer I believe England could have done something similar - but right now our pack too often looks unable to punch it's way out of a paper bag and our defence is suddenly very fallible. Without massive improvements our only chance is perhaps another case of norovirus.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 3:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote: Without massive improvements our only chance is perhaps another case of norovirus.
I can help with that......

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 4:45 pm

We'll do what we always do with NZ, manage to keep it tight for the majority of the game, but never really look like we're going to win it.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by boomeranga on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 6:16 am

Fellas, off topic but congratulations and commiserations on the footy team at the World Cup. Was good, I thought.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 7:36 am

Maybe I have missed it - but who do we think will be replacing Gustard? Has anything been announced yet?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Taylorman on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 7:48 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't say NZ were unbeatable.

I agree to a point, it's the NZ way of playing that teams need to know how to stop and counter. But, with personnel changes that system can falter somewhat. Barrett is a step down on Retallick (most locks are tbh) and whoever plays at 8 is a step down on Read. These 2 players are the real driving force of your pack imo.  

Well Barrett is new as Retallick was once and was our best player in the French series so with two Rugby championships and a summer tour north to come before Japan at his current improvement rate he will provide a true world class backing for our locks in Japan, if not challenge for a spot.

No. 8s a concern after Read and Luke Whitelock did well enough in Reads absence. Isnt the most mobile or skilful lock but was hard working enough. Akira is showing promise but needs more work. But anyway, these are seconds guys. England have shown they drop off a long way after Vunipola, who always seems to be injured, and Farrell and Ford so its not as if everyone else has great backups either, let alone firsts.

Anyway, for me its not about a simple comparison of individuals, its an approach they will beat the ABs and London Tiger has it right about what needs to be done, though as always, its about doing it. If someone knocks over the ABs its usually about denying their strengths, not taking advantage of their weaknesses because generally there arent enough to get that sort of advantage. You have to get up and knock their main game off.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Taylorman on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 7:57 am

LondonTiger wrote:New Zealand are most definitely not unbeatable. Fantastic player that he is Beauden Barrett has a kicking game that can be a definite weakness (from hand and off the tee).

To beat NZ you must front up in the forwards and get them on the back foot, then your defence needs to be aggressive and in their face. Finally you have to take your chances. (of course arguably this applies to all teams). After suffering a complete humping in the first test last year, the Lions showed that the World Champs are most definitely fallible and Barrett's weaknesses came to the fore - better kicking and perhaps all 3 tests would have been won.

Last summer I believe England could have done something similar - but right now our pack too often looks unable to punch it's way out of a paper bag and our defence is suddenly very fallible. Without massive improvements our only chance is perhaps another case of norovirus.

Agree with your middle paragraph and thats how its usually done. Thing about Barrett is you cant rely on him having a bad game because he doesnt often and can instead rip the match from you in minutes and there arent teams around that can put the sustained pressure that the Lions did for two full tests.

Getting in their face, knock them over, competing up front, and taking chances as you say...that will most likely do it. Thats how the Lions, Irish, and England in 12 did it. Took it to them and put the points up. Barretts poor play was simply a direct result of that pressure. Hes learnt from it though so theres that as well.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 12:32 pm

Watson has had a setback in his rehab and needs a second operation. Now unlikely to be back playing in 2018

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 8:37 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Watson has had a setback in his rehab and needs a second operation. Now unlikely to be back playing in 2018
Yeah, just read that. Opens the door a bit further for Ashton?

By the way, who is taking care of Watson? Mr. Bean? Jeez...………..

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 9:33 pm

Ashton, Yarde, Solomena, Earl. I'd say it's between those four for a spot in the EPS.

And the wing and FB slots are already well covered with May, Nowell, Brown and Daily.

Is it still an EPS or has it changed again?

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:54 pm

yappysnap wrote:Ashton, Yarde, Solomena, Earl. I'd say it's between those four for a spot in the EPS.

And the wing and FB slots are already well covered with May, Nowell, Brown and Daily.

Is it still an EPS or has it changed again?

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but only one is an out and out try scorer with the ability to track play from deep and magic himself to the shoulder of the ball carrier making the break.

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 2:12 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Ashton, Yarde, Solomena, Earl. I'd say it's between those four for a spot in the EPS.

And the wing and FB slots are already well covered with May, Nowell, Brown and Daily.

Is it still an EPS or has it changed again?

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but only one is an out and out try scorer with the ability to track play from deep and magic himself to the shoulder of the ball carrier making the break.
And the proven ability to take a punch...….

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:11 pm

Here's a question: would England be better off with Lancaster still in charge?

I know that Eddie had a remarkable start as England coach and yes, Lancaster went a bit mad at the last World Cup with Sam Burgess et al, but I always felt that Lancaster had a plan, and his selections made sense. With Eddie everything now feels a little but chaotic.

I'm an Everton fan, so apologies for this football analogy, but it reminds me of when Roberto Martinez inherited a well run club from David Moyes, sprinkled a bit a creativity on it, and everything started well. But the fundamentals then started to fall to pieces and the inherited structures started to decline. Is that what we're seeing here with England, or is it simply a case of going through a tricky period? On the plus side Jonny May is in storming form!!

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Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

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