England Summer Tour - Part 2

Page 2 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Go down

England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 11:19 am

First topic message reminder :

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't get the point in the Cipriani experiment...and I don't get why Robson was taken.

Eddie Jones just baffles me. What is actually going on in his head. Whats his plans with people like this..and Mark Wilson?? etc. Why does he manage people like this.

Pick them for tours then not even look at them again until another meaningless tour needs some bodies to fill the squad.


At least Cipriani is getting a start. I was wondering if Eddie only took him on tour to stop him signing a big money contract overseas. It does seem strange that Robson has not had even a sniff, especially with Danny-boy starting this test. Supposedly the weather is meant to be wet and windy tomorrow so maybe Jones thinks the Wasp's game is not tight enough?

Wilson has at least added marginally to his tally of caps - but Jones does seem to view him as an inferior alternative to Robshaw.

I agree that's how he probably does see him, and probably a large majority of England fans aswell. However in that case why bother taking him. Why not take the young potential in both Curry's to see if they can eclipse Robshaw. Why has Simmonds not even had a minute on the pitch.
Why is Mercer not getting games.
Why take Ben Earl??


His whole management just confuses me a lot.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down


Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:45 pm

Didn't see the game so interesting to read the comments.

Good to hear Marler had a stormer...on his day he's far better than MAko (whos a "finisher")

Not sure why May gets so much criticism. He's class and always has been. He's an eccentric individual and that comes across in his play. He's Englands best winger.

Ill watch the highlights with interest to see how intense SA were with the series already won.

Curry at least has been blooded now.

SA and New Zealand in the AI's! They'll tell us a lot.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by lostinwales on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:46 pm

Cipriani won't be around for long but he might be the right guy for right now.

Our backs have always been more dangerous when Ford plays well, but it does seem as if he isn't in the best place at the moment.

Interesting times. Marcus Smith might be the main 10 in a couple of years.

lostinwales

Posts : 7849
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by lostinwales on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:....

Not sure why May gets so much criticism. He's class and always has been. He's an eccentric individual and that comes across in his play. He's Englands best winger.

.....
He has been for a while and will continue to be until injuries or age slows him down, or for the best reasons when someone better appears.

lostinwales

Posts : 7849
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:50 pm

Tbf Watson has always looked a real class act as well.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 16781
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:54 pm

Watson is a quality winger. We are blessed with a few at the moment.

Hopefully Daly can cement that 15 spot and Browns defensive abilities can rub off a bit on him as well and we'll have a dangerous back 3

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:57 pm

I take it the weather was bad? And had a big affect on the game?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by lostinwales on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf Watson has always looked a real class act as well.

Yes he is. We have a great stable of wings. Daly is great anywhere he plays. Nowell is just a professional nuggety b*stard (damn the word filter) in the best traditions of Mike Brown, Solomona can be lethal with ball in hand. But I'd still have May as current no.1. That defensive display vs Argentina when Daly got sent off, the try vs the AB's. It just feels that he is capable of just that little bit extra

lostinwales

Posts : 7849
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Exiledinborders on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 8:03 pm

lostinwales wrote:Interesting times. Marcus Smith might be the main 10 in a couple of years.
He might but I would put my money on Max Malins. Just as talented as Smith and he has the advantage of being at Saracens where players get the best coaching.

Exiledinborders

Posts : 1509
Join date : 2012-03-18
Location : Scottish Borders

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 8:03 pm

I keep coming back to what does this team need as a touch extra. Come the 6 nations if we could have Robson firing genge and Tuilagi back I'd be an even happier bunny. We're in really good shape.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 16781
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Mr Bounce on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 8:44 pm

I don't know why people still have a go at Cipriani when his kick secured the try for May. It certainly could have gone out but the thing to remember is that he had the vision, saw the gap and took the kick, which was a very difficult one with 2 South Africans practically on him. Say what you will about his past endeavours and selfish temperament - that was a piece of magic which had no right to come off the way it did.

His tackling today was no worse that Ford's has been and as an added bonus he didn't make a habit of trying to tackle players twice his size by aiming for the sternum. I would be happy for Cips to stay as 10 during the AIs to see how he progresses. Granted we can't predict form, but I would suggest that the shirt is his until Georgey Boy plays consistently well enough to warrant claiming it back.

Great tour for Curry and May, out 2 best players by a long chalk. Good to see that Spencer got some time off the bench and Wilson too. Shields could be a useful one to watch too.

On the minus side Itoje and Mako were badly off form, Ford was not his usual self and Billy has once again departed with an injury. Hughes is not an adequate 8 at international level right now (this coming from a Wasps fan), and we need to sort out our scrummaging selections - i.e use props who can do more than run around the park. The breakdown was a lesson in "how not to do it" for a while and the penalty count was ridiculous. Shame we didn't see Genge on a barrelling run at any point or Dan Robson plying his trade at 9. I also don't see the point of playing people out of position when there's perfectly usable players on tour (Shields at 5).

I guess there's just some players whose faces don't fit with Jones.

Mr Bounce

Posts : 2261
Join date : 2011-03-18
Location : East of Florida, West of Felixstowe

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:08 pm

Just about sums it up Mr bounce. I'm a wasps fan too and Hughes is not what England need.

Yoda

Posts : 237
Join date : 2011-10-19
Location : Sunny Hampshire

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by nathan on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:09 pm

Other than the 1 great by cips, he did nothing more than ford did in the starts of first and second tests. I think we need remember our forwards actually performed today which I think is the biggest problem England face.

nathan

Posts : 10842
Join date : 2011-06-14
Location : Leicestershire

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:15 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Interesting times. Marcus Smith might be the main 10 in a couple of years.
He might but I would put my money on Max Malins. Just as talented as Smith and he has the advantage of being at Saracens where players get the best coaching.

Yes Max is a little under the radar at the moment with Marcus, Ford, Cipriani etc really in the headlines...but the Saracens lad looks pretty special.

We just need these lads to stay injury free and hit their potential which sadly so many of our kids don't seem able to do recently.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by kingelderfield on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I keep coming back to what does this team need as a touch extra. Come the 6 nations if we could have Robson firing genge  and Tuilagi back I'd be an even happier bunny. We're in really good shape.

The thing is, as the saying goes, 'one swallow doesn't make a summer' and so it is with EJ's development strategy. So therefore I'm still very skeptical that Danny will really be given a proper run with the full side and equally Robson has as much chance as does Christian Wade. Furthermore Tuilagi is very much an outside chance. So realistically young Genge has the real chance of the 3

I'd love to be all hopeful and optimistic but if this season has taught us anything it is that the club country situation is progressively detrimental and so we are left with the consequential player welfare issues, resultant injuries, unavailability and little chance for consistent selection and development.

kingelderfield

Posts : 2231
Join date : 2011-08-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by EnglishReign on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:16 pm

I've been singing May's praises since he burst on the scene for Glos - always looked a special player. It's taken him time to settle for England but, even now he's a Tiger, I'm delighted to see him bringing his club form to the big stage.

Long may it continue.

EnglishReign

Posts : 1843
Join date : 2011-06-12
Location : Canada

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by kingelderfield on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:22 pm

Yoda wrote:Just about sums it up Mr bounce. I'm a wasps fan too and Hughes is not what England need.

Hughes hasn't been right since all the injuries....mostly with England. Always comes back too soon. If he can find the form fitness of his 16/17 season then he'll again be a threatening option.

kingelderfield

Posts : 2231
Join date : 2011-08-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:27 pm

Whilst I personally don't think he's actually international standard (but I can be converted) ....I do think Eddie Jones has been genuinely unfair with Hughes. He's not given the lad a chance to recover from a series of injuries, hes just dumped straight in to battle.

Hughes probably feels if he says hes not fit he wont get a chance again so does his duty...but its not right.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Poorfour on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 9:35 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Interesting times. Marcus Smith might be the main 10 in a couple of years.
He might but I would put my money on Max Malins. Just as talented as Smith and he has the advantage of being at Saracens where players get the best coaching.

Yes Max is a little under the radar at the moment with Marcus, Ford, Cipriani etc really in the headlines...but the Saracens lad looks pretty special.

We just need these lads to stay injury free and hit their potential which sadly so many of our kids don't seem able to do recently.

Malins does look pretty special, but bear in mind that he's two years older than Smith, which is a lot at this age. And while Saracens do have better coaching than Quins overall, I can't think of anyone better for Smith to learn from as a fly half than Nick Evans.

It may be that Malins comes through ahead of Smith, but what Smith can do at 19 is remarkable, as is the rate of improvement he's shown this year. He's also shone in what have largely been awful team performances from Quins.

Poorfour

Posts : 3887
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:02 pm

Smith looked good for Quins but very much the individual in the under 20s. If Quins improve it'll be interesting to see if he is still the individual or whether he learns to become the general at 10. As Pourfour says he's got a great mentor, he'll need some mentoring but by 2023 he could be the man or he could be the next Cipriani.

Part of me hopes Mallins concentrates on 15 because he's got similar attributes to Goode but more pace and a better step. If he improves under the high ball he could be the natural successor for Sarries and England.

formerly known as Sam

Posts : 12874
Join date : 2011-07-13
Age : 32
Location : Leicestershire

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:09 pm

Think cipriani will be given another chance but bar the kick didn't really do much king. Robson will get a go in the AIs as I think he doesn't really think spencer is the answer. Tuilagi is just about proving his fitness.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 16781
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:16 pm

Well theres lots of potential.....lets hope the injuries stay away...

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:18 pm

Would be nice to see malins get a run of games. Spencer looked class but has received little time to shine. Same with tomkins. Saracens churn out class players but the backs in particular seem to have to go and look elsewhere to get games.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 16781
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:19 pm

So I guess the question is...

WIll Ford take us to the world cup...and then release the shirt to one of the others...or is Ford good enough to compete for that shirt even IF the lads reach their potential.

Also...what do people think of Joe Simmonds...?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:20 pm

So I guess the question is...

WIll Ford take us to the world cup...and then release the shirt to one of the others...or is Ford good enough to compete for that shirt even IF the lads reach their potential.

Also...what do people think of Joe Simmonds...?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Mr Bounce on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:24 pm

nathan wrote:Other than the 1 great by cips,  he did nothing more than ford did in the starts of first and second tests. I think we need remember our forwards actually performed today which I think is the biggest problem England face.

But that's my point. He didn't have a bad game and there was that moment of magic. He just offers something different. I am certain the All Blacks would be happier facing Ford rather than Cipriani as he's a bit unpredictable. We shall see. I say give the guy his chance.

Mr Bounce

Posts : 2261
Join date : 2011-03-18
Location : East of Florida, West of Felixstowe

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Heaf on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I take it the weather was bad? And had a big affect on the game?

The ground was a bit soft and slippy as it had rained a lot before the start, but I wouldn't say it was that bad ...

Heaf

Posts : 2675
Join date : 2011-07-30

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:36 pm

Depends how much smith steps up this season gf. It would be most likely ford Farrell and cipriani now but that guy is seriously talented. If he gets lots of game time you'd suspect with Gustard still having the ear of jones he'd be in with a chance. Simmonds is good bit not quite the same class.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 16781
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 11:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends how much smith steps up this season gf. It would be most likely ford Farrell and cipriani now but that guy is seriously talented. If he gets lots of game time you'd suspect with Gustard still having the ear of jones he'd be in with a chance. Simmonds is good bit not quite the same class.

Very true, and as Poofour said above with Evans mentoring him...it could be considerable.

Ah well its just another interesting one to watch over the coming season.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 11:49 pm

So I guess the question is...

WIll Ford take us to the world cup...and then release the shirt to one of the others...or is Ford good enough to compete for that shirt even IF the lads reach their potential.

Also...what do people think of Joe Simmonds...?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20490
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 12:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I keep coming back to what does this team need as a touch extra. Come the 6 nations if we could have Robson firing genge  and Tuilagi back I'd be an even happier bunny. We're in really good shape.

Itoje and one of our hookers in really good form would be great. They're two positioned we're really struggling with players.

yappysnap

Posts : 11228
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 7:57 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:So I guess the question is...

WIll Ford take us to the world cup...and then release the shirt to one of the others...or is Ford good enough to compete for that shirt even IF the lads reach their potential.

Also...what do people think of Joe Simmonds...?

Hopefully George will be annoyed at losing his shirt and come back to Tigers fired up and out to prove a point. If he use him properly next season and he should refund his form and we'll have some healthy competition heading towards the RWC.

Joe Simmonds looks a good prospect. Has a few rough edges that need polishing out before he's talked about internationally.

formerly known as Sam

Posts : 12874
Join date : 2011-07-13
Age : 32
Location : Leicestershire

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Recwatcher16 on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 8:37 am

Reading some of the above England do appear to have a glut of FH's capable of Test rugby both now and In the future.
In the third test Cipriani only got the ball 14 times, Youngs 91, so the wet weather tactics were obvious. Ford would have probably done just as well with the forwards dominating and there aren't too many sides that can say that in a game in S.A.

England have plenty of capable props, hookers, locks and flankers but 8 looks a problem area, Hughes simply doesn't look fit enough. There arent enough options at 9 and 12 is an undecided area for me too with playmaker or ball carrier in that position. Plenty of wingers but fullback looks to be a toss up between Brown, Day & Watson - all offer something different and none entirely convincing.

In the 6N England got caught out with ref interpretation of allowing greater time for hands on the ball at the ruck, with the ball already being on the deck and they didn't/chose not to react to it. I don't see that happening next season.

A lot of players will have had a long summer off too, which will also pay dividends next season too when you consider the individuals, Hartley, Coles, Kruis, Lawes, Haskell, Underhill, Cliiford, Care, Tuilagi, Teo, Joseph, Watson, Nowell.

EJ's tactics haven't looked as clear cut this season but pressure at the breakdown and subsequently conceding soft penalties have been a clear factor.

Opposition fans have enjoyed England losing a few games but the real test in terms of the RWC schedule comes in the autumn with the three big guns from the SH arriving. If England do well in those then, the countdown to the RWC begins in earnest.

France, Australia and S.A. look on an upward trajectory. Wales & Scotland will be competitive, I wonder if Ireland have peaked too early, Sexton looks crocked to me but clearly are a difficult team to beat currently.

Next season looks a humdinger with all test sides timing their run to the RWC with NZ still being ahead of the rest.

Recwatcher16

Posts : 414
Join date : 2016-02-15

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by mid_gen on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 9:01 am

Anyone got any recommendations for a rugby forum that's moderated sensibly? I notice you're now prevented from reporting WUMs.

mid_gen

Posts : 437
Join date : 2016-10-13

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 10:22 am

Don't try the BBC forums they are even worse!

Yoda

Posts : 237
Join date : 2011-10-19
Location : Sunny Hampshire

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by SecretFly on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 11:53 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:Reading some of the above England do appear to have a glut of FH's capable of Test rugby both now and In the future.
In the third test Cipriani only got the ball 14 times, Youngs 91, so the wet weather tactics were obvious. Ford would have probably done just as well with the forwards dominating and there aren't too many sides that can say that in a game in S.A.

England have plenty of capable props, hookers, locks and flankers but 8 looks a problem area, Hughes simply doesn't look fit enough. There arent enough options at 9 and 12 is an undecided area for me too with playmaker or ball carrier in that position. Plenty of wingers but fullback looks to be a toss up between Brown, Day & Watson - all offer something different and none entirely convincing.

In the 6N England got caught out with ref interpretation of allowing greater time for hands on the ball at the ruck, with the ball already being on the deck and they didn't/chose not to react to it. I don't see that happening next season.

A lot of players will have had a long summer off too, which will also pay dividends next season too when you consider the individuals, Hartley, Coles, Kruis, Lawes, Haskell, Underhill, Cliiford, Care, Tuilagi, Teo, Joseph, Watson, Nowell.

EJ's tactics haven't looked as clear cut this season but pressure at the breakdown and subsequently conceding soft penalties have been a clear factor.

Opposition fans have enjoyed England losing a few games but the real test in terms of the RWC schedule comes in the autumn with the three big guns from the SH arriving. If England do well in those then, the countdown to the RWC begins in earnest.

France, Australia and S.A. look on an upward trajectory. Wales & Scotland will be competitive, I wonder if Ireland have peaked too early, Sexton looks crocked to me but clearly are a difficult team to beat currently.

Next season looks a humdinger with all test sides timing their run to the RWC with NZ still being ahead of the rest.

I've been pondering such things.  But on the contrary Rec, I'd suggest between now and post-6N is a good time for Ireland to lose a bit of form and do even more 'experimental' tests on backup players that might be needed over the next year (young Larmour given more time at 15 than Kearney for example and Joey Carbury taking over games from Sexton).  Now would be the best time for Irish player to go off the boil a bit and recoup the juices for that WC.  I'd even sacrifice a full-on attack on the 6N for Schmidt to play a more cagey learning series and rest his central players through the competition.

If Sexton looks crocked that's because he probably is.  6N Grand Slam, Pro14 Title, European Club Championship, November clean sweep at the beginning of last season and now a series win down under against a herd of tough tough Aussies.  That's a lot of high end competition in games you can't cruise through. Of course he's crocked and wants a break. It's natural after a season like he's had.

If the idea about Ireland perhaps peaking too early has a grain of truth to it then I'd say that now is the time for the squad of players not to ask too much of themselves at the beginning of next season.  The real danger of peaking too soon is that you don't micro manage the possibility that it might be true and push on hard through the next season to fully deflate just when the WC hits.

SecretFly

Posts : 28734
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 12:58 pm

Really interesting thoughts.  Not sure I agree about peaking too early, though.  I think people discuss that sometimes as if it is something that can be managed easily.  In my opinion coaches are always trying to bring everything together all the time.  And they always want things to click.  In the case of Ireland, who have played marvelous and smart Rugby (England???!!!), have they actually peaked?  Would you want them to slow down the momentum assuming (with no guarantee) they can pick it up again?  Clearly Sexton needs a rest.  But otherwise, I would say keep banging on, seven bells of hell, and see where it takes you.  

With England, there are certainly a lot of questions, and as I have said, they look like a shot team.  But I also wonder how long England can play without a runner in mid-field, as in Cape Town yesterday. Having Farrell at 12, I think, limits the attack, regardless of the other benefits he may bring.  Should he revert to 10 and play a real centre at 12?  Or should another player get a shot at 10?  I think I know how people will answer, but we discuss the issues on attack frequently and some of that is the 10-12 set up.

doctor_grey

Posts : 8156
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 3:09 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Really interesting thoughts.  Not sure I agree about peaking too early, though.  I think people discuss that sometimes as if it is something that can be managed easily.  In my opinion coaches are always trying to bring everything together all the time.  And they always want things to click.  In the case of Ireland, who have played marvelous and smart Rugby (England???!!!), have they actually peaked?  Would you want them to slow down the momentum assuming (with no guarantee) they can pick it up again?  Clearly Sexton needs a rest.  But otherwise, I would say keep banging on, seven bells of hell, and see where it takes you.  

With England, there are certainly a lot of questions, and as I have said, they look like a shot team.  But I also wonder how long England can play without a runner in mid-field, as in Cape Town yesterday. Even having Farrell at 12, I think, limits the attack, regardless of the other benefits he may bring.  Should he revert to 10 and play a real centre at 12?  Or should another player get a shot at 10?  I think I know how people will answer, but we discuss the issues on attack and some of that is the 10-12 set up.

Doc, don't forget JJ, he is likely to be back in the autumn and he will be well rested, I think that a Ford/Cips, May, Farrell, JJ, Watson, Daly backline would put the sh1ts up most countries, such ridiculous pace all over. You can't give penalties away because there are three kickers, two left footed, kick too deep and those three will run it back so quick you are going to struggle.

What we need is a decisive nine that is going to give them the quick ball they need and a pack that delivers the ball quickly, at European and most other countries playing levels, it appears they can, especially with all the players coming back, Harley and Lawes in particular. We missed Hartley's leadership and Lawes defensive work as will as line out strength. Lets see what EJ does later in the year.

WELL-PAST-IT

Posts : 1927
Join date : 2011-06-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 3:13 pm

In dry conditions, even with limited ball our attack went well.

Final test, when we actually won the contact area and had decent possession, we played to the conditions, kicked the coating off the ball and waited for SA mistakes.

I do not see attack as the issue, but more our forward play and defensive organisation.

LondonTiger

Posts : 18381
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 3:55 pm

With respect, I think outside the first 15-20 minutes of the first two matches and a few moments from Cippy and May yesterday, I didn't think we had that much of an attack. I agree our forwards played much better yesterday which did set the team up pretty well. Eddie had the right strategy for the weather, but if the weather was dry, how do you think we would have done?

doctor_grey

Posts : 8156
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 4:06 pm

Mentally we were alot better I got the impression we actually focused for this final test. We played within our comfort zone and dry or wet we were just much better. Our attack was fine it's been our defense and stupid pens that did us in test 1 and 2. I also think out of the three refs Jackson had a better handle on the game.

Yoda

Posts : 237
Join date : 2011-10-19
Location : Sunny Hampshire

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 4:14 pm

Hmm that's strange, some of my factual comments seemed to have disappeared yet the WUM comments from BamBam and Yoda remain. Mods still scratching their heads I bet over why people continue to leave the site Rolling Eyes. We'll see what uncle Eddie has to say when we face you in Cardiff with what is hopefully a neutral ref this time Wink.

mikey_dragon

Posts : 7355
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 4:24 pm

Slightly concerning thing for me is that the old guard who people generally would like to be moved on, or that were injured/rested – Hartley, Cole, Robshaw, Brown, Ford, and Lawes, JJ, Billy… really weren’t outplayed by their replacements. Perhaps there’s still life in the old dogs yet. For me, just 2 pluses: an OS who looked good, and a stop-the-rot win away to SA. And May showing us again what he can do.
avatar
Barney McGrew did it

Posts : 1494
Join date : 2012-02-23
Location : Trumpton

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 5:41 pm

doctor_grey wrote:With respect, I think outside the first 15-20 minutes of the first two matches and a few moments from Cippy and May yesterday, I didn't think we had that much of an attack.  I agree our forwards played much better yesterday which did set the team up pretty well.  Eddie had the right strategy for the weather, but if the weather was dry, how do you think we would have done?  

If the forwards had played as well as that and it was dry in Capetown, then we would have seen if Cipriani could co-ordinate the attack.

With respect Doc, and I do respect you, I strongly disagree with your view on this. What we need to develop though is a way to keep scoring points when we are under the cosh. In the first two tests after the bright starts we compounded errors by making more conceding possession and penalties.

I am far more worried by the defence. On fast tracks we seemed incapable of slowing the ball down and re-organising quickly enough.

Not especially worried by the attack, seriously worried by the defence and our lack of speed up front.

LondonTiger

Posts : 18381
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by robbo277 on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 6:25 pm

Pleasing win for England yesterday. Wasn't the best game, but a 15 point win in South Africa isn't to be sniffed at.

Would agree that most of the "men of the match" have been named on this thread. It was good to see Eddie use his bench sensibly (i.e. by not using it). His changes all brought positive impact, but he kept on players like Marler who were playing well. Yes, Hepburn will have spent 24 hours in the air for 0 minutes on the pitch when he gets back, but it was the right decision.

I saw an interesting graphic on Twitter showing starts under Eddie Jones. Similar to how Fly wants Carberry and Larmour tested, I hope Eddie does look at some other options over the Autumn.



With South Africa and New Zealand first up, I hope England play their strongest team and look for 2 wins. But then I hope Eddie rotates his squad for the latter two games (Japan and Aus). It would be good to see players like Genge, Hill, Simmonds, Robson, Lozowski, Solomona etc get a couple of tests. We could also see some of this year's Under 20s for the Japan fixture.

A lot will come down to fitness and early season form, but Eddie has definitely bought himself another series at least, and dissent and talk of his position that was ongoing for the last couple of weeks should probably die down.

robbo277

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by doctor_grey on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 8:40 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:With respect, I think outside the first 15-20 minutes of the first two matches and a few moments from Cippy and May yesterday, I didn't think we had that much of an attack.  I agree our forwards played much better yesterday which did set the team up pretty well.  Eddie had the right strategy for the weather, but if the weather was dry, how do you think we would have done?  

If the forwards had played as well as that and it was dry in Capetown, then we would have seen if Cipriani could co-ordinate the attack.

With respect Doc, and I do respect you, I strongly disagree with your view on this. What we need to develop though is a way to keep scoring points when we are under the cosh. In the first two tests after the bright starts we compounded errors by making more conceding possession and penalties.

I am far more worried by the defence. On fast tracks we seemed incapable of slowing the ball down and re-organising quickly enough.

Not especially worried by the attack, seriously worried by the defence and our lack of speed up front.
We certainly agree about the defense. In the first two matches, England looked underpowered at the breakdowns and missed a lot of tackles. And some of those tackles which were not missed were still 5 or 10 yards down field (after some players who know better were going high). Not sure if the defensive communication was poor or not, but the movement on defense seemed almost lax.

After we scored and had a lead in the first two games, it almost seemed England took their foot off and stopped attacking, or at least thinking aggressively. I never really thought this until this series, but I still wonder if is better for England, if Farrell has to play, then we play the better attacking player (Ford, Cipriani, or someone else) at 12 and put Farrell at 10 when England have the ball and then switch and play Farrell in the centre spot on defense where he would be much better.

doctor_grey

Posts : 8156
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by maestegmafia on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 8:42 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jun/24/england-eddie-jones-south-africa-premiership-clubs


“The advantage England and France have in terms of player numbers, and finance, is negated by the ability of other tier-one nations to manage the workloads of players better. It is not a question of blame: the clubs, who more than 20 years after the creation of the Premiership are as far away from making a collective profit as they were in 1997, have to put their businesses first or face going bust. It means, however, that they are not as receptive to prevailing trends as other countries where the leading two strands of the professional game are calibrated.”

maestegmafia

Posts : 20570
Join date : 2011-03-05
Location : Glyncorrwg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 9:49 pm

Still so many unanswered questions.....number 1 has to be the first name on the team sheet....who should be captain?
For me Farrell is what he is and that is some heroic manufactured professional, but is he 'my captain' and the answer is to that is a no.
Simply he is not a Leader he is a tremendous individual professional but he can't inspire by wit of character and personality.
I don't see Hartley coming back and even if he does I think his story has run its course. So who has the character and who is the future as well as the present?
My man is Maro Itoje.

kingelderfield

Posts : 2231
Join date : 2011-08-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by yappysnap on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 10:40 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So I guess the question is...

WIll Ford take us to the world cup...and then release the shirt to one of the others...or is Ford good enough to compete for that shirt even IF the lads reach their potential.

Also...what do people think of Joe Simmonds...?

Hopefully George will be annoyed at losing his shirt and come back to Tigers fired up and out to prove a point. If he use him properly next season and he should refund his form and we'll have some healthy competition heading towards the RWC.

Seemed to work for Robshaw looking at the third test and his previous games.

Hopefully it'll work for Care too.

yappysnap

Posts : 11228
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by mbernz on Mon 25 Jun 2018, 3:25 am

Cipriani had a decent game, certainly an improvement over that against the Barbarians, and should get more opportunities in the AIs and 6N. Farrell is not the player to start outside him though. One or t'other should start (Farrell at the moment), with either a dynamic player like Tulagi/Te'o outside them to penetrate and fix defenders, or if we want a second playmaker, one with more pace and testing running like Lozowski/Slade. OC should be either JJ or Daly (his best position, and he needs to get his hands on the ball in the line more), whoever is in the best form, currently that is Daly, and I suspect will contnue to be.

mbernz

Posts : 225
Join date : 2012-04-14

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Yoda on Mon 25 Jun 2018, 8:22 am

The midfield isn't our biggest worry. Consistency of forward performance. We are not clever enough to change tactics in terms of what we see in front of us and the different type of game brought by different sides or the way the game is reffed. Ideally we do need different options in the backs for a different more physical game but the old adage is right, the pack wins the game and the backs determine by how much. In terms of captain who knows no one seems to have the ability to talk to refs calmly and be a great interviewee. The clock is ticking and Eddie is going to have to work hard this summer.

Yoda

Posts : 237
Join date : 2011-10-19
Location : Sunny Hampshire

Back to top Go down

Re: England Summer Tour - Part 2

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum