England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 11:09 am

First topic message reminder :

T20s

A three match series between the 2nd (India) and 4th ranked teams in the world https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/team-rankings/t20i

Fixtures

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 17:30
Emirates Old Trafford, Manchester

Friday 6th July 2018 17:30
Sophia Gardens Cardiff, Cardiff

Sunday 8th July 2018 14:00
The Brightside Ground, Bristol


Squads

England: Morgan, Ali, Bairstow, Ball, Buttler, Curran S, Curran T, Hales, Jordan, Plunkett, Rashid, Root, Roy, Willey (Malan in as cover for 1st game, Stokes may join for 3rd)

India: Kohli, Chahal, Chahar, Dhawan, Dhoni, Karthik, Kaul, Kuldeep Yadav, Kumar, Pandey, HH Pandya, KH Pandya, Rahul, Raina, Sharma UT Yadav


Key Men

Jos Buttler - move up the order during IPL has given him much more time to have an impact. While only ranked 26 in ICC rankings, this will improve now he opens.
Alex Hales - Formerly top ranked batter in T20s, has dropped a bit (to 7) and finds his place in the England side under threat.
Rashid/Ali - Englands spinners have thrived in the one day format, but will find the Indian batting lineup a tough test.

Virat Kohli - probably the best batsmen in the world across all 3 forms of the game. Some injury issues recently.
Chahal/Kuldeep Yadav - India look like going with two wrist spinners. England often struggle to score quickly against good spin.



ODIs

Fixtures

Another 3 match series between the the top two ranked sides in the world.  Both teams will be wanting to lay down a marker before next year's world cup.


Thursday 12th July 2018 12:30
Trent Bridge, Nottingham

Saturday 14th July 2018 11:00
Lord's, London

Tuesday 17th July 2018 12:30
Emerald Headingley, Leeds


Squads

England - Eoin Morgan (capt), Moeen Ali, Jonny Bairstow, Jake Ball, Jos Buttler, Alex Hales, Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Mark Wood.



Test Series

A form of cricket in which the visitors have been much better than the hosts. The series goes deep into September as India seek to avenge the series defeat in 2014. In a manner we have become used to seeing from touring teams around the world, that series India capitulated in the final 3 tests  having won the second test to take a 1-0 lead. India however look strong enough this time out to put pressure on a faltering home test team.


Fixtures

Wednesday 1st August 2018 11:00
Edgbaston, Birmingham

Thursday 9th August 2018 11:00
Lord's, London

Saturday 18th August 2018 11:00
Trent Bridge, Nottingham

Thursday 30th August 2018 11:00
Ageas Bowl, Southampton

Friday 7th September 2018 11:00
Kia Oval, London

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 11:14 am

Talk on the spinners front is Moeen coming back again.
Hes had notable success in the past specificaly against India and last summer in the "premier" second summer series against SA (who apparently are appalling against any form of spin) but this just seems typical of the confused mess that Englands selections.
Hes been no more than decent in the ODI series, with Rashid being the big wicket taker. One big haul in the CC ( 8/ 170 same weekend Root took 4/5) is suddenly enough to win a place back? Do they desperately need his batting?
Meanwhile theres 3 spinners whove been flirted with (Crane, Bess, Leach) who now find themselves out of the picture. Whilst none may have made the best of their opportunities (including the Lions game) it doesnt seem clear what England really want or if they are willing to stick to their guns and back a horse.

Wood missing to me is a blessing, England seem fixated on him as an all formats fast bowler no matter how much he fails to deliver wickets.
Theres still questions over the exact make up of the seam attack with and without Stokes present, but England have a pool of Currans/Overtons and a Woakes (plus a few fringe names) to pick from to back up Broad/Anderson. India are likley to struggle more with mounting injuries and fatigue as the series goes on.
The noises about Pope suggest that they may end up with just 4 front line bowlers for T2, which would be a big change of tack. Unless Buttler/ Malan would lose their places to allow a 4th seamer and protect those playing from overwork.

Whatever happens theres still issues in the top 4, not helped by Burns failing to make the most of his chance with the Lions. Their should be plenty of depth to the batting though , especially if the Moeen rumours are true.

Smae old story for England really. Same strengths and weaknesses, nothing resolved. A series win will continue to paper the cracks.



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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:05 pm

13 man squad:

Root(c)
Ali
Anderson
Bairstow(Wk)
Broad
Buttler
Cook
Curran S
Jennings
Malan
Porter
Rashid
Stokes


Woakes deemed to need more time with Warks, Wood injured, Bess and Leach to attend pre test training

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Post by Afro on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:13 pm

I can see some logic in picking Rashid - you don't win test matches without taking 20 wickets and he is a wicket taker - but its a joke really.

Say you are not playing red ball cricket for your county, and that it when you get selected. Feel for Bess and Leach, but happy to have them back at Taunton instead please
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:20 pm

Statement from Mark Arthur chief executive @YorkshireCCC

"We’re very surprised that England have called Adil up after not playing red ball cricket this season. Neither has he expressed a desire to do so. I hope that England know what they’re doing to Adil, and the county game"


Now that’s a statement

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:32 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Statement from Mark Arthur chief executive @YorkshireCCC

"We’re very surprised that England have called Adil up after not playing red ball cricket this season. Neither has he expressed a desire to do so. I hope that England know what they’re doing to Adil, and the county game"


Now that’s a statement

While I think he is our best spinner, I do not believe he should have been selected. I was uncomfortable with the selection of Buttler earlier in the season, but at least he was still available for CC.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:13 man squad:

Root(c)
Ali
Anderson
Bairstow(Wk)
Broad
Buttler
Cook
Curran S
Jennings
Malan
Porter
Rashid
Stokes


Woakes deemed to need more time with Warks, Wood injured, Bess and Leach to attend pre test training

Re: Bess and Leach. Bess hasn't been getting in the Somerset side and Leach has only bowled 37 overs since injury apparently. If they were fixtures in this England side then you'd perhaps expect to see them parachuted back in, but they aren't.

It's a strong looking squad. I don't think you pick Rashid in this circumstance to carry the drinks, so I think he'll play. Which perhaps means Moeen and Porter miss out from that lot? We could try to shoe-horn Moeen in place of a seamer or a batsman, but I'm not sure we'll bother, especially with Root coming in off the back of his career best bowling!

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 12:53 pm

Utterly moronic to call up Adil Rashid, just like Jos Buttler, and an absolute slap in the face to those playing county cricket. What a joke of a selection policy. What an appalling message to send.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 1:00 pm

No Woakes is a blow. Porter the beneficiary.

If they genuinely havent talked this through with Adil then thats just pathetic and bizzare. However the rumours have been floated for a while, so I cant beleive he wouldnt have at least had a casual chat with Root to see if his call up really was being considered or couldve just gone on record if he was that concerned. I suspect this is more frustration on Yorkshires part ( understandable) than Rashid genuinely not wanting to be picked.

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Post by alfie on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 1:19 pm

So the rumors were correct .

Still seems odd to me to select players for the Test team purely on the basis of ODI form - especially one who has specifically said he doesn't want to play red ball cricket.

Look it may work : both Rashid and Moeen (who has been restored primarily on his fifty over form , surely ? Rather overlooking a horrible winter tour) have impressed against their prospective opponents in the short form : it might carry over...but it still looks like trying to produce a joker from the pack rather than the traditional process of
building a team from the first class ranks. The way of the future ?

If it stays dry I guess we are looking at Cook Jennings Root Malan YJB Stokes Buttler Moeen Rashid Broad Anderson .
Plenty of quantity in the batting (quality to be proven ?) and a lot of spin options but gawd help us if one of the three recently injured quicks should break down...

All that said , India have had limited first class warm ups so they might be vulnerable. We shall see.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 1:24 pm

Oh, pretty sure Dilly wanted to be picked, based on his quotes at the weekend. However having refused to consider playing any other form of red ball cricket (ie refusing to play against Lancs) his selection does court controversy.

If he puts in a match winning performance it will be perceived as a risk worth taking. Even then not sure what message this sends out.

Will be interesting to see what form of contract Rashid signs with Worcs.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 1:36 pm

Two spinners would be a surprise to me dry or not. Root and Malan have showwn themselves to handy options and neither Rashid nor Moeen is exactly demanding of a place. As you alude to looking ahead to a 5 match series, inclduing no Stokes for at least one test, that could also see a heavy load placed on Anderson and Broad who will need managing.
If Mooen plays then theres the option of dropping Malan / Buttler and having 6 bowlers without a long tail. Or just one spinner and 4 seamers.

Englands experiements with 2 spinners at home havent gone especially well in that past, even if Moeen has a strop if hes picked a sa front line bowler.


Seeing the lack of overs from Dawson and Bess makes more sense to their exclusion, and I had forgotten that Crane had reinjured himself. regardless of the reasons though its concerning that England have ended up back with players they'd previously rejected because they simply werent good enough.


LT...
Yeah I think Id misunderstood the quote. Its more about hes not expressed any desire to play in the CC and what message does that send to other cricketers, that makes more sense. England have often ignored county performances for years now anyway and judged players more on development/ lions games.
I kind of sgree with both sides here...the county game isnt a great yardstick for test cricket and perfoamnces there dont seem to match up to test readiness, but equally encoraging players to ignore the county game isnt going to help fix the issues. The ECB need to take some brave steps to save it as having any relevance to the devlepoment of high quality test standard players. Its relevance (and profitability) is dieing year on year.
Meanwhile we do seem to have a great crop of 50 overs players ...despite having messed around and marginalised that format at county level for decades. Again it makes me question how much the county game is doing to bring up these players and how much comes form their time with various central development programs and abroad.

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Post by alfie on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 2:00 pm

Sounds as if you are anticipating a fourth seamer , Goose ...Curran the more likely , then ? (Variety )
Can't see Malan being left out surely : flat out finding someone to bat five as it is - hate to see Moeen at four but it looks too high for the man with the gloves and apparently they don't think Buttler can be above seven (I don't agree : on recent form I'd try him at five ; but four might be a bridge too far)
To be honest I don't know what this Smith-led selection mob are going to do so will just wait and see...and hope they somehow end up with a viable XI...

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 2:09 pm

So the selection policy for the Test side is now determined by having a barnstorming IPL(Buttler) and getting Kohli once(Rashid)

Whilst Bess looks pretty average, he actually plays red ball cricket whereas Rashid is too good to bother doing that.

Shameful selection

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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 2:11 pm

Isn't the whole point of Test cricket that it should be as big a challenge as possible? To make it so, the best players should be in both squads, and India haven't been shy about drafting Kuldeep into their squad despite being supposedly only on the tour for the first half.

Rashid is 30, and has been in good form, plus the conditions and pitches should be in his favour. When he (and England) got hammered in his last Test in Chennai, his confidence was shot, so it was no wonder that he would revert back to his 'white ball' comfort zone. His control has improved as has his variation in the past year and a half, so despite his reluctance to return to the red ball he needs to be given another chance, and that time is now.

It is a bold selection with the knives being sharpened should it all go pear-shaped for Smith, but OTOH if it is a success England could come away with a spin solution for the next five years.

The County game shouldn't feel aggrieved, as they have had every opportunity in spin friendly conditions to make the Rashid decision unnecessary, and yet who has really been putting their hand up for selection? The problem isn't the ECB selectors not backing the County Championship, but rather the results from the spinners on show don't make a compelling case for selection. Ever since Simon Kerrigan's debut the suspicion is that County cricket isn't that good a predictor of success anyway.

The Porter selection is undoubtedly related, as an affirmation that the CC is relevant and success will be rewarded. The perceived pundit wisdom is that Porter may be good in 'English' conditions, but with a new Kookaburra overseas he could be as toothless as a retired sweetie shop owner... except at least the wickets have been more overseas-like this summer. He has developed a bit more pace so he is obviously working hard, and it would be great to see him learning from Sensei Anderson.

Ed Smith is prepared to upset the apple cart because it frankly needed upsetting, and hopefully the best fruit will now be on show.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 2:22 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Isn't the whole point of Test cricket that it should be as big a challenge as possible? To make it so, the best players should be in both squads, and India haven't been shy about drafting Kuldeep into their squad despite being supposedly only on the tour for the first half.



.
Kuldeep not getting much Test action is mainly due to Ashwin and Jadeja, they've got around 500 wickets between themselves.

Same isn't said for Rashid

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 3:06 pm

alfie wrote:So the rumors were correct .

Still seems odd to me to select players for the Test team purely on the basis of ODI form - especially one who has specifically said he doesn't  want to play red ball cricket.

Look it may work : both Rashid and Moeen (who has been restored primarily on his fifty over form , surely ? Rather overlooking a horrible winter tour) have impressed against their prospective opponents in the short form : it might carry over...but it still looks like trying to produce a joker from the pack rather than the traditional process of  
building a team from the first class ranks. The way of the future ?.

I’ve got absolutely no problem with the Rashid selection, or the Buttler one. Smith has come in and not been afraid to pick the best players based on what he sees - can anyone really say Bess and Leach (both averaging over 50 in the championship this season) are better than Rashid who is proven to be one of the best one day spinners in the world at international level? We’ve picked batsmen based on county form for the past 5/6 years trying to replace Strauss/Trott and got nowhere - why not pick players who have proven they can play at international level albeit in a different format?

There’s also the part where Rashid should have been a mainstay of this england test side for many years already. He was the best spinner on the county circuit for years, he was given a half go and then deposited for crap like Mason Crane who was clearly never as good an option.
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Post by jimbohammers on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 3:43 pm

Rashid getting picked is a terrible decision. What sort of message does it send to county players, when you pick a player who signed a white ball only contract and had no interest in playing county cricket.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 4:30 pm

jimbohammers wrote:Rashid getting picked is a terrible decision. What sort of message does it send to county players, when you pick a player who signed a white ball only contract and had no interest in playing county cricket.

It sends the message that they're not good enough.

The 4 day game is dying, and if change doesn't happen Test cricket will eventually follow suit. Unless players can see a future in the longer form, more and more will concentrate exclusively on the short forms, accelerating the demise of the traditional game. The problem is that spectators have more choice than ever on where to spend their money and very limited time to spare.

The two-innings game needs to go through a re-think to get fans (=money) back, or accept that the very top players will focus on their short form skills and forget about developing their red ball game. The two don't need to be mutually exclusive and the acceptance of that would go some way to keeping both healthy.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 4:57 pm

It sends the message of - don't bother with county cricket. Just play the limited form, where you can catch the eye with a few cheap wickets or by hitting a couple of sixes over a boundary 50 metres away.

First Jos Buttler, who hadn't played proper cricket for about 8 months before getting an undeserved recall, and now Adil Rashid. Both of whom are not good enough for Test Cricket. It sends an utterly appalling message to up-and-coming cricketers that first-class cricket doesn't matter if you want English test selection.

Mind you, with the way the ECB treat four-day cricket, shoving it to the fringes of the calendar, perhaps this is no surprise.

On another note, an even more generous 11/5 is available on India to win the test series. Hope they do.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 6:57 pm

It sends the message that the best players get picked.

To be fair to Rashid, it’s not like he was being picked and then couldn’t be bothered. He wasn’t being picked so decided to do what he thought was best for his career and game.

England do see him regularly enough, so it’s not a stab in the dark, and also you don’t feel there’s really a better option currently anyway.

This is the absolute time to give it a go (well, it was years ago, and the arrogance of not doing it Down Under last winter was a huge handicap to the side.)

Shameful? Get over yourselves

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 7:27 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:So the rumors were correct .

Still seems odd to me to select players for the Test team purely on the basis of ODI form - especially one who has specifically said he doesn't  want to play red ball cricket.

Look it may work : both Rashid and Moeen (who has been restored primarily on his fifty over form , surely ? Rather overlooking a horrible winter tour) have impressed against their prospective opponents in the short form : it might carry over...but it still looks like trying to produce a joker from the pack rather than the traditional process of  
building a team from the first class ranks. The way of the future ?.

I’ve got absolutely no problem with the Rashid selection, or the Buttler one. Smith has come in and not been afraid to pick the best players based on what he sees - can anyone really say Bess and Leach (both averaging over 50 in the championship this season) are better than Rashid who is proven to be one of the best one day spinners in the world at international level? We’ve picked batsmen based on county form for the past 5/6 years trying to replace Strauss/Trott and got nowhere - why not pick players who have proven they can play at international level albeit in a different format?

There’s also the part where Rashid should have been a mainstay of this england test side for many years already. He was the best spinner on the county circuit for years, he was given a half go and then deposited for crap like Mason Crane who was clearly never as good an option.

I have an old fashioned view of what constitutes being ''one of the best''. It doesn't include going missing and refusing to play when your county needs you.

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Post by JDizzle on Thu 26 Jul 2018, 9:49 pm

I don’t massively have an issue with Rashid not playing red ball cricket. England made it abundantly clear they didn’t see him as a Test bowler by picking guys like Crane and Leach ahead of him, as well as him not displacing Moeen after last winter. It’s better for County cricket if the best players are playing, but if England didn’t fancy him what is in it for Adil?

What I do find poor is him refusing to play in the Roses game. Apparently he was asked, and presumably he knew he was in the frame for the Test team by then, and Yorkshire has to get Poysden in on a one game loan. That is shoddy.

None of this has any impact on how he’ll go, as he has to play now. I think he will seriously struggle as bowling leg spin in Tests is bloody hard. There is a decent number of leggies who go well in the shorter forms and can’t do it at Test level. And I do wonder if he would have been picked at all if it wasn’t for that one ball to Kohli!

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 12:20 am

Theres too separate points really.
Is Rashid the best option for England on ability? Thats with a short and long term focus, given hes never managed to nail a spot or displace the mediocre Moeen....and is pushing 30 and seeing himself as a limited overs bowler ( as England have). Also succesful leggies in test cricket are incredibly rare , even more so in England whilst trying to bowl legally.
The flip argument is hes become an increasing force at international level, did Ok in India , wasnt given much of chance, is on form, and the other options arent.

Then theres the county issue and support of the 4 day tournamemt. Yorkshire have made their position clear, but the selectors duty is the England team not a dead duck tournament.
Id hate to see counties go to the wall but I dont see another way other than to fully restructure the season and cut the number of first class teams. Concentrate the quality and encourage both fast bowlers and spinners.
The county game has not been serving England for some time. Now the boots on the other foot.

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Post by alfie on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 12:47 am

Ha.  

Just popped on to make a point re "2 separate issues" ...only to see Goose has nipped in first...

Largely agree with above. My main concern is that I fear this selection points to what I think will prove an unbalanced team - may be proved wrong , in fact I hope I am . I suppose had they included , say , Leach , one might think final selection was still likely to depend on actual conditions ; while it now looks as if Rashid is already inked in to the XI - would be strange to make such a "wildcard" selection and have him carry drinks ! Guess I should wait for Wednesday...

But I do also take on board an apparently widespread concern with this undercutting of the normal County-Test path. As JD and guildford have mentioned it seems a bit odd to reward a player who declined to turn out for Yorkshire in a four day game even when he must have been aware he was being considered for Test selection with a spot in the side ? Not really the "message" they'd want to send , is it ?

Not sure whether the Smith comments that from next year turnout in the CC will be compulsory for Test selection make this "one-off" case more or less palatable...

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Post by LivinginItaly on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 6:57 am

probable team for the first test:

Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Curran / Ali
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 7:39 am

Rashid and Root seem to have a few issues. First, after receiving the MotM award in ODI3, the legspinner shook everyone's hand until he seemed to blank the test skipper. It was then reported that Rashid's selection was against objections from Root. If this is purely a personal thing, then both have to get over themselves (Rashid's latest comments will fuel the fire though), however if the captain does not rate or trust a bowled we have major issues.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 10:25 am

alfie wrote:Ha.  

Just popped on to make a point re "2 separate issues" ...only to see Goose has nipped in first...

Largely agree with above. My main concern is that I fear this selection points to what I think will prove an unbalanced team - may be proved wrong , in fact I hope I am . I suppose had they included , say , Leach , one might think final selection was still likely to depend on actual conditions ; while it now looks as if Rashid is already inked in to the XI - would be strange to make such a "wildcard" selection and have him carry drinks ! Guess I should wait for Wednesday...

But I do also take on board an apparently widespread concern with this undercutting of the normal County-Test path. As JD and guildford have mentioned it seems a bit odd to reward a player who declined to turn out for Yorkshire in a four day game even when he must have been aware he was being considered for Test selection with a spot in the side ? Not really the "message" they'd want to send , is it ?

Not sure whether the Smith comments that from next year turnout in the CC will be compulsory for Test selection make this "one-off" case more or less palatable...

[Adopting the ranting style of Kevin Keegan -] I would love it, really love it if Rashid carried the drinks for all five days. It's not as if his county are in a rush to have him back. Wink

Alfie - more seriously, I do take your point that it would be ''strange'' to leave him out now but I find a lot of things strange with the ECB these days. For me, Rashid has a good chance of playing but I don't regard his selection as set in stone yet. I would guess Porter will be released the day before with one of Rashid, Moeen and Curran then finally missing out.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 11:45 am

The comment about Root makes a liar of Smith if its true, he was admamant it was a unamimous decision.
If Root genuinely objected to Rashid on playing or team mate grounds then having him in the side is really dangerous.

Either way to me it smacks of short termism. Both Moeen and Rashid are failed players, turning back to them isnt getting england any closer to the long term goal of finding a decent test spinner.
Maybe its too soon for Vidri but it must be slightly dissapointing for him to be behind 5 other spinners ( and possibly Dawson too).
A few months back england were all about the ones for the future...for this series it seems to be lets just get through it and win.
No fast bowler either....well there really arent the options there.
No Burns ...OK Jennings and Malan both just about deserve spots and he didnblow his chance to force a case.
Porter seems very much a county bowler home conditions pick who would only play if someones injured and its grey.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 1:21 pm

I’d suggest Rashid leaves Yorkshire, who are apparently under the control of scorned lovers.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 3:03 pm

Will be interesting to see if Rashid plays the T20 for Yorkshire tonight...

Speaking of interesting - Shikhar Dhawan has just bagged a pair in the tour match against Essex. Umesh Yadav with 4-35 returning best figures - not a lot to shout about for the Indian spinners though.
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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 3:41 pm

I think the board here is divided on Rashid. Well after Swann England is yet to find someone who can disturb the batsmen. However there is nothing wrong in giving him a chance, and the selection is for the first test match only. He can be a trump card for England. India selected Bumrah for SA series in spite of the fact that he had not played the red ball cricket for a year, and he proved to be successful selection. It's cricket mate, you never know the future.
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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 3:54 pm

Seems like Karthik will be guarding the wickets in the first test match. However India should look for future rather than looking back. In my opinion Karthik must bat and Pant guard the wicket.

Indian line up might look like Vijay, Rahul, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane/Karthik, Pant, Pandya, Kuldeep, Umesh, Shami and Ishant.

However if Karthik holds the gloves, Rahane and Karthik both will be in the lineup.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 4:03 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/jul/27/adil-rashid-yorkshire-england-red-ball-cricket

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 27 Jul 2018, 4:27 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/jul/27/adil-rashid-yorkshire-england-red-ball-cricket

Pretty balanced article by Dizzy.

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Post by compelling and rich on Sat 28 Jul 2018, 2:58 pm

i wouldnt mind if rashid was truly a great spinner, you could excuse the lack of morals in the decision. but to me he's always been a fairly poor test match spinner. he's decent in the shorter format where teams have to get at him but in the tests, good batsman will just wait him out until he bowls that inevitable bad ball and put it away.

perhaps he is the best available (not a great choice available), but for all the trouble the decision will make he's certainly not good enough to be worth it imo

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 29 Jul 2018, 9:13 am

guildfordbat wrote:...

...
Alfie - more seriously, I do take your point that it would be ''strange'' to leave him out now but I find a lot of things strange with the ECB these days. For me, Rashid has a good chance of playing but I don't regard his selection as set in stone yet. I would guess Porter will be released the day before with one of Rashid, Moeen and Curran then finally missing out.

Some suggestions in the press this weekend that Malan might be the one to miss out.

Whilst I'm unconvinced by Malan, I don't go a bundle on that idea. Playing four seamers and two spinners provides plenty of options but does rather reek of indecision and lack of confidence.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 29 Jul 2018, 10:54 am

Playing two spinners would be ineffectual at best. Indian batsmen feast on spin bowling, and it's not as though the conditions in Birmingham will be conducive to sharp, troubling turn.

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Post by alfie on Sun 29 Jul 2018, 11:11 am

guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:...

...
Alfie - more seriously, I do take your point that it would be ''strange'' to leave him out now but I find a lot of things strange with the ECB these days. For me, Rashid has a good chance of playing but I don't regard his selection as set in stone yet. I would guess Porter will be released the day before with one of Rashid, Moeen and Curran then finally missing out.

Some suggestions in the press this weekend that Malan might be the one to miss out.

Whilst I'm unconvinced by Malan, I don't go a bundle on that idea. Playing four seamers and two spinners provides plenty of options but does rather reek of indecision and lack of confidence.

Well that , guildford , is my great fear...

My own opinion is that Malan at 4 , and whoever bats at five , are one spot too high already. If Malan were left out , who the devil goes in at 4 ? Bairstow - gloves & all ? Moeen ? Stokes ?

Batting is definitely a bit fragile in any case ; visions of 47/5 on first day and no way back...Maybe I'm being pessimistic but not as if we haven't seen just that sort of early collapse before (NZ , Pakistan...two series essentially thrown away in the first few hours)

Not saying Malan is all that ; but I think keeping batting depth is vital especially in the opening match. Not discarded because they can't make a decision re the attack...

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 29 Jul 2018, 1:59 pm

Im constantly bemused by englands approach of picking an extra spinner because they havent got any worth picking.

Im assuming though they will put Moeen in at 4 and tell him hes second spinner...which is always what hes been more comfortable with.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 29 Jul 2018, 6:28 pm

To be honest with Malan averaging only 21 in home tests there’s probably a case to be made for playing Moeen ahead of him as a specialist bat
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Jul 2018, 11:14 am

So it is England's 1,000th test on Wednesday - seeing a lot of "top 10 tests" articles floating around, and all seem to be omitting the best one

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11691/scorecard/667711/england-vs-india-1st-investec-test-india-tour-of-england-2014/

Any test that has James Anderson scoring 81 runs, Alistair Cook taking a wicket and a maiden over of Gary Ballance leg spin should be among the pantheon of greats
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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 30 Jul 2018, 2:30 pm

Limiting England's best Tests to ones in my lifetime (born 1950), I would include the following as the finest (in no particular order):
1. Leeds 1981
2. Birmingham 2005
3. Lord's 1963 (all four results possible in final over)
4. Lord's 2000 (all four innings in one day plus gripping climax)
5. Lord's 1990 (Gooch, Azha, Kapil's sixes)
6. Sydney 1954-55 (May/Cowdrey Ashes-saving stand plus Tyson)
7. Karachi 2000 (the win in the dark)
8. Manchester 1956 (Laker)
9. Brisbane 1986/87 (the unexpected from the "can't bat/bowl/field" team
10. Melbourne 2011/12 (a complete rout)

Of course I've only listed the ones where England have done well, so no room for two of the sensational Tests which have probably scarred England the most in the last 60 years -
1. Manchester 1961 (Benaud's Ash Tuesday as one paper described it and a match that I still have nightmares about)
2. Adelaide 2006/07 (How on earth did England manage to lose?)

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 30 Jul 2018, 11:26 pm

Top stuff from Lord Geoffrey.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/07/30/adil-rashid-spoilt-brat-should-never-have-handed-test-recall/

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 12:00 am

Geoffrey Boycott labelling Rashid a spoilt brat who doesn’t deserve a call up only strengthens the fact that this is a good decision.

Vaughan and Boycott are both obvious bellends, even if I don’t mind either as pundits. On questions of this ilk, which aren’t aboutnskill or knowledge, both are moron shockjocks

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 12:08 am

Geoffrey Boycott, a man who took an apartheid check and an England ban to tour South Africa, and who feigned injury to play golf instead of field on tours, criticising Rashid for accepting T20 gigs.

What an odious blithering old fool - the Yorkshire crew have made right tits of themselves in their reaction to his selection. Embarrassing
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Post by alfie on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 5:47 am

Hmm.  Reports I'm reading suggesting that ,  far from being a spinners paradise , the First Test is likely to be more the typical Edgbaston pitch - and will tend to reward seam bowling . Not the sort of surface on which to select two spinners.

So : is it a given that Rashid plays ? Moeen has previous success - in England - against India ; but the suggestion was that they wanted someone who could turn the ball away from the right handers. (They do , after all , have Root to bowl a bit of off spin) Certainly Moeen offers more with the bat ; and this may also be a factor if they want to select Porter : they may not want Sam C providing India's spinners with foot marks so a few issues to think about.

I just hope they are able to make a decision based on what seems best for the conditions rather than feeling they basically have to play Rashid to justify all the fuss...

Have to confess I'm somewhat ambivalent about this . Disregarding for the moment the whole "selection outside the box" issue , I am not really sure either of the two spinners have clearly shown the requisite red ball credentials for Test selection recently so whichever is picked it is going to be something of a gamble . Not that anyone else has been tearing down trees this season ; though that is arguably at least partly due to the absurd scheduling this season .


Last edited by alfie on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 5:54 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding.)

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 7:39 am

Yep it rained heavily again this morning and is forecast mixed cloud for the match. Whilst its not going to be a green top the grounds far from hard baked sub continent style.
Almost certainly bat first but if theres early clud as forecast something for the new ball bowlers.

As for Rashid. ..if its 5 bowlers as seems certain id rather see him play. Firstly if there was any logic at all to having him its because England view him as the best spinner available and recognise that Moeen simply isnt comfortable as a lead spinner. Unless conditions have changed to such a degree thst they feel spin will hardly be needed but 8 batsmen will .

Either way Yorkshires mood wont have improved.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 8:37 am

It should also be noted Rashid is hardly a mug with the bat either - could easily bat at 8 like Moeen would if he played
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 9:49 am

With 10 first class centuries, Rashid should be more than capable of contributing from No8.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 31 Jul 2018, 9:56 am

England seem bizarrely fixated on spin. In the nets yesterday, the England batsmen had five different spinners bowling at them. This is in spite of the fact that the heatwave has abated, there's been good lashings of rain up and down this beautiful land, and conditions at Edgbaston will be standard, seamer-friendly fare that everyone is used to and expects.

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