England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 11:09 am

First topic message reminder :

T20s

A three match series between the 2nd (India) and 4th ranked teams in the world https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/team-rankings/t20i

Fixtures

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 17:30
Emirates Old Trafford, Manchester

Friday 6th July 2018 17:30
Sophia Gardens Cardiff, Cardiff

Sunday 8th July 2018 14:00
The Brightside Ground, Bristol


Squads

England: Morgan, Ali, Bairstow, Ball, Buttler, Curran S, Curran T, Hales, Jordan, Plunkett, Rashid, Root, Roy, Willey (Malan in as cover for 1st game, Stokes may join for 3rd)

India: Kohli, Chahal, Chahar, Dhawan, Dhoni, Karthik, Kaul, Kuldeep Yadav, Kumar, Pandey, HH Pandya, KH Pandya, Rahul, Raina, Sharma UT Yadav


Key Men

Jos Buttler - move up the order during IPL has given him much more time to have an impact. While only ranked 26 in ICC rankings, this will improve now he opens.
Alex Hales - Formerly top ranked batter in T20s, has dropped a bit (to 7) and finds his place in the England side under threat.
Rashid/Ali - Englands spinners have thrived in the one day format, but will find the Indian batting lineup a tough test.

Virat Kohli - probably the best batsmen in the world across all 3 forms of the game. Some injury issues recently.
Chahal/Kuldeep Yadav - India look like going with two wrist spinners. England often struggle to score quickly against good spin.



ODIs

Fixtures

Another 3 match series between the the top two ranked sides in the world.  Both teams will be wanting to lay down a marker before next year's world cup.


Thursday 12th July 2018 12:30
Trent Bridge, Nottingham

Saturday 14th July 2018 11:00
Lord's, London

Tuesday 17th July 2018 12:30
Emerald Headingley, Leeds


Squads

England - Eoin Morgan (capt), Moeen Ali, Jonny Bairstow, Jake Ball, Jos Buttler, Alex Hales, Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Mark Wood.



Test Series

A form of cricket in which the visitors have been much better than the hosts. The series goes deep into September as India seek to avenge the series defeat in 2014. In a manner we have become used to seeing from touring teams around the world, that series India capitulated in the final 3 tests  having won the second test to take a 1-0 lead. India however look strong enough this time out to put pressure on a faltering home test team.


Fixtures

Wednesday 1st August 2018 11:00
Edgbaston, Birmingham

Thursday 9th August 2018 11:00
Lord's, London

Saturday 18th August 2018 11:00
Trent Bridge, Nottingham

Thursday 30th August 2018 11:00
Ageas Bowl, Southampton

Friday 7th September 2018 11:00
Kia Oval, London

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by JDizzle on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 7:58 pm

Gooseberry wrote:People seem to forget how bad England have been at T20s despite their metoric rise in ODIs. They still lose more game than they win, and erunning India close is pretty good going based on the last two years results.
Partly this is because they just dont take T20 internationals that seriously, summed up by Bayliss saying he doesnt think they should happen outside the woirld cup and not bothering to get involved with this series.
The lack of specilist T20 bowling also hurts England, their batting is just fine but the relative weakness in bowling got badly exposed by some big individual performances from Indian batsmen. It certainly doesnt help that 3 bowlers really arent of international standard (Willey, Jordan, Ball) but its not like Curran is Jofra Archer.


The ODI's is the really big part of the "Indian Summer" after this phoney war. In that format theres no question its the best two sides and they they will be fielding the best players available. Stokes should be back for England, but it looks like Woakes will be rehabbing and make his way back for the tests.

India are better than England in T20, I dont think that was ever really a question. ODIs ...well lets see how good they are. The differeence in Englands results in the two formats is huge. As mentioned above India have had plenty of time to gel as a squad and feel their way into the series. They should be full of confidence and able to select their best side.
No hiding or excuses for either team. For me the ODIs are the highlight series of the summer.

Also, England's main strength in the 50 over format is their ridiculously long batting line up so everyone can just go hard. Whereas in T20s everyone from all teams go hard anyway. I expect England to win that series if they master the spinners, probably 65:35 in their favour.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 8:23 am

It will be interesting to see what the pitches are like - probably flat and true leading to high scores.

3 of the last 4 completed ODIs at Trent Bridge have seen England score 481, 444 and chase down 350 with 6 overs remaining. The 4th game was the tie against SL where Plunkett hit the last ball for 6. In that last game England demonstrated the depth of batting to recover from 30-4 and 82-6 to eventually match Sri Lanks's 286

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 10:42 am

Big question for England is how they make up their bowling attack with Woakes missing. A number of players ( notably Wood, Ball and Willey) have looked short on quality. Various Currans and Overtons constantly being injured clouds things even more.
Theres also a question over whether Moeen plays or they continue with one spinner plus Root. That allows all the star bats to play alongside Stokes, but leaves the bowling options light.
Plunkett, Stokes, Rashid is fine ...but they need 2 -3 bowlers supporting them and chipping in with regular wickets.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 2:43 pm

JDizzle wrote:
probably 65:35 in their favour.
Disagree with this assessment. The English batsmen are one dimensional(Root aside), just hitters. Lack of adaptability. Whereas India's batting consists batsmen with outstanding records in the longer formats(Dhoni less so and Pandya more of a slogger. Secondly India have the best ODI batsman of all time in Kohli. The England bowling has been toothless many times, it's just in recent times the English hitters have cashed in against some below par bowling. Even without Bumrah, India's bowling is better than anything we've faced since we got better in ODIs. Chahal and Kuldeep are a few leagues above Rashid and Moeen. I see it as 50/50

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by JDizzle on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 7:11 pm

It was a big if about mastering the spinners. I do agree how England play them will be key. I fully expect three roads to be produced though, certainly with this weather, which will favour England just going out and smashing it. And calling players like Buttler/Bairstow hitters is very harsh.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by wisden on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 5:36 pm

Buttler is a hitter...it's not a derogratory term....its true, he is a hitter..

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 9:51 am

wisden wrote:Buttler is a hitter...it's not a derogratory term....its true, he is a hitter..

If hitter is being used as a synonym for slogger then it could be construed as derogatory. Buttler has a lot more finesse to his game than to be labelled as a one trick pony (same for Morgan actually).


Anyway back to today and Alex Hales has been ruled out with a side injury, removing one selection headache.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:13 am

Convienet injury. He was favourite for the drop anyway. That presumably means they will have the two spin 4 seam attack ....one of which is Plunkett, whos actually fit to take the other two spots?

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:15 am

So means the XI will be

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Rashid
Willey
Plunkett
Wood

I suppose?
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 12:16 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:So means the XI will be

Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Rashid
Willey
Plunkett
Wood

I suppose?

You got it, though perhaps with Dilly at 10.

India XI: Rohit Sharma, Shikhar Dhawan, KL Rahul, Virat Kohli (capt), Suresh Raina, MS Dhoni, Hardik Pandya, Siddarth Kaul, Kuldeep Yadav, Umesh Yadav, Yuzvendra Chahal.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 12:27 pm

That leaves India with a hell of a long tail. Whilst they have arguably got an even stronger top 6 than England have from 8 down theres no comaprisson.
That also perhaps points to why England have a bit more of a kitchen sink hitters approach to limited overs, they can risk losing wickets much more than India can. They dont need to shut up shop when 2 or 3 down.

Im also not sure this really is the best bowling attack England have faced in the last 3 years, given its not being played in the subcontinent. India dont have a genuine quick strike bowler and aside form the fairly average Yadav dont have a great deal of experience outside Asia (or in Kahuls case anywhere).
Theres always a concern with England vs quality spin, but this isnt a teriffying bowling attack.

Englands still has 2 players who just arent good enough for this level, but if no-ones fit then what are they going to do. Certainly Woakes walks back into a first choice side, its then really finding someone with real pace and/or quality take the other spot.

Although its likelyto be pretty flat pitches with the weather forecasts their could be some cloud and humidity about to aid conventional swing...suiting Englands bowlers and the Indian medium pacers.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 1:17 pm

England 71-0 off 10 overs, India missed a couple of early opportunities - now time to see what their spinners can do
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 1:33 pm

Hitters against mystery spin....Kuldeep enjoying himself

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 2:34 pm

This Stokes innings has been painful
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:08 pm

Fifty off 45 balls for Buttler - what a summer he's having clap
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:46 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:This Stokes innings has been painful

50 off 103 balls - genuinely one of the worst one day innings I've seen that
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by JDizzle on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:49 pm

Not seen any of it, was going to ask if Stokes’ knock was as painful as it looked but guess so!

Kuldeep 6-25 off 10... Wow. They seem to have played Chahal fine too, just looking at the scorecard!

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 5:40 pm

England started off quite well. But again they could not read Kuldeep's wrist spin. Seems like Merlyn is not working fine. Again I have never seen Stokes batting too long with less than half a ball run.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 5:43 pm

They last time scored 481 here, but today settled for almost 55% of that.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 5:49 pm

I think Kuldeep is the first left arm wrist spinner for India. England came quite well in the second T20 by playing kuldeep on the back foot and allowing the bowl to come on the bat, but that will not work here in ODIs.

Kuldeep plays well with his wrist and gives a lot of variations. I think English batsmen should try to read his wrist just before the releases. Rahul Dravid often says that if you are able to read the point of release you have won the bowler.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 6:37 pm

Is it the same English team that was hammering the Aussies a month back ????
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by KP_fan on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 7:34 pm

--India win by a mile and have won 3 out of 4 limited over games without breaking a sweat

This Indian team looks at limited over games as one lump , strategizing for world cups and acclimatizing for tests

--to challenge India and even score would be 320 and 350 a high probability of win for Eng...but to get there they  have to NOT collapse to wrist spinners

Mind you India is not playing their best limited over seamers in Bhuvi and Bumrah

--Or get India's top 4 out early...they are all 100 getters but for that you need seaming pitches and that would make a lot of English batsmen also vulnerable
I am still counting on Dhawan to deliver a 100 (or two) in next two games

--I would sit kuldeep out next game, not let Eng get used to him too much and play him in 3rd game only if series is at stake and Bhuvi still being rested

Washington sundar who will come in kuldeep's place is laso not a usual spinner......Kumble-ish, one that Eng hasn't seen much and a pretty handy lower order hitter


Last edited by KP_fan on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by KP_fan on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 7:36 pm

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:I think Kuldeep is the first left arm wrist spinner for India..

Ajay sharma was the first one , although he was a part time spinner, and don't be fooled by CI calling him SLA, he was a wrist-spinner
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:18 pm

Truly inept performance by England. Rabbits in the headlights against Kuldeep, whom was magnificent mind you. The China man went boundary less on the most free scoring ground in world cricket. 

The English bowling was pathetic. Mark Wood isn't international standard. An honest trier but lacks talent. Rashid is okay against rubbish batsmen but against top quality he's nothing to worry about. Equally the same for Moeen. 

I think Morgan's time is up. Buttler should be captain and I always want Hales in the XI, again granted he was injured today.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:16 pm

China man having his way with England again

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:24 pm

This is a big day for Morgan, really think he needs to put in a big score. He needs to justify more than his good captaincy in this team.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 1:12 pm

Good to see Morgan get a 50 but a very poor ball (full toss) from Kuldeep and an even poorer shot from Morgan sees it sailing to the fieldsman. Morgan out caught on 53.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 1:14 pm

Not sure I would have brought Stokes in ahead of Buttler now given Stokes' slow score a few days back. England need to keep up the momentum.

This will either Stokes out early trying to hit himself in form or a big quick score, I hope the latter.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 4:01 pm

I think England are 30 run short. BTW it doesn't matter if they restrict India in the middle overs with some wickets. Indian batting is strong with Hardik coming at 7. However I think the contest is going to be interesting.

India one down for now.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 4:06 pm

Well India 2 down now. Its a brilliant chance for Rahul to fire up at no. 4, the slot India is desperate to fill before WC2019.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Duty281 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:15 pm

Kohli gone. Advantage firmly England's.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:28 pm

England taking a bit of a grip on this game it seems. Not over yet , with Dhoni at the crease , but...

Raina gone too ...well bowled Rashid clap

Dhoni will need to work a miracle...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:37 pm

This has been very good from England. After the first ODI it looked like it could be a grim 3 match series, now it looks like they will force a decider.

Also, for all the hype, Kuldeep was not that good today. I thought England marshalled him very well taking nearly 7 runs an over off him. Ok, he took 3 wickets but they were more down to bad luck (Bairstow) and poor shot choice (Roy and Morgan). Thought Chahal was the better spinner today for India.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:49 pm

eirebilly wrote:This has been very good from England. After the first ODI it looked like it could be a grim 3 match series, now it looks like they will force a decider.

Also, for all the hype, Kuldeep was not that good today. I thought England marshalled him very well taking nearly 7 runs an over off him. Ok, he took 3 wickets but they were more down to bad luck (Bairstow) and poor shot choice (Roy and Morgan). Thought Chahal was the better spinner today for India.


Agree with all that. Took that big finish from Willey to get England up to a good score but it was clear early on that this pitch was going aid the spinners and England's pair have done very well. Certainly helped that the pace men picked up three fairly early too...

India need ten per over now. Good luck with that.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:52 pm

Howya alfie,

Yeah Willey's 50 was top class, proper counter attacking play. It did take England from an ok position to a very good one. Thought Root was excellent value for his 100 as well, just controlled run scoring.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:01 pm

Second fine catch for Buttler clap

Into the tail...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:03 pm

All over now. 7 down and England will make it 1-1.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:14 pm

Two best ODI teams around at present , no question. Series deserved a decider : which could go either way.

Still got to finish this one of course : but Dhoni for all his record as a finisher is hardly going to score fifteen per over on his own...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:17 pm

The English spinners have out done the Indian spinners today. Never thought I would ever say that...

Massive congrats to Dhoni on 10,000 ODI runs. A very special player indeed clap
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:24 pm

Dhoni might have thought of achieving the brilliant feat in a winning cause. However it's cricket.

India is no way close to the score. Leeds ODI would be interesting with top two teams fighting for the cup.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:26 pm

Dhoni has been a marvellous player over the years but his rather inept innings today showing his time is well and truly up. With the endless pool of talent coming via the Indian premier league you've got to wonder how someone like Pant is being overlooked.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:27 pm

Yes he's been a wonderful player ...but he is rather messing about here : just patting the ball around instead of going down swinging. Bit of a dull way to finish the game . Maybe he's saving himself for the third game Smile

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:27 pm

Dhoni fifth in the list of players reaching 10,000 fastest. No doubt when Kohli will have 10k runs under him, he will be quickest.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:30 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Dhoni has been a marvellous player over the years but his rather inept innings today showing his time is well and truly up. With the endless pool of talent coming via the Indian premier league you've got to wonder how someone like Pant is being overlooked.

Dhoni is still the best WK batsman. The scenario in the present match can never do justice to his class batting. He also knew that this match is far from winning, its better to take the score closer and not let England take 10 wickets.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:32 pm

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Dhoni has been a marvellous player over the years but his rather inept innings today showing his time is well and truly up. With the endless pool of talent coming via the Indian premier league you've got to wonder how someone like Pant is being overlooked.

Dhoni is still the best WK batsman. The scenario in the present match can never do justice to his class batting. He also knew that this match is far from winning, its better to take the score closer and not let England take 10 wickets.
The boy Pant averages 54 in first class cricket and he walloped it everywhere in the IPL. No point having someone like Dhoni aged 37 blocking a quality youngster's path.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:37 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:
subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Dhoni has been a marvellous player over the years but his rather inept innings today showing his time is well and truly up. With the endless pool of talent coming via the Indian premier league you've got to wonder how someone like Pant is being overlooked.

Dhoni is still the best WK batsman. The scenario in the present match can never do justice to his class batting. He also knew that this match is far from winning, its better to take the score closer and not let England take 10 wickets.
The boy Pant averages 54 in first class cricket and he walloped it everywhere in the IPL. No point having someone like Dhoni aged 37 blocking a quality youngster's path.

In no way Dhoni is blocking the path. With WC less than a year to go, you will never want your reserve captain to remove his boots. Kohli get lots of help from Dhoni, also he can hit the ball quite well. The present match can't judge him similar to Stokes who played very badly in the last match still it does not prove that he is not efficient. Dhoni is still the best WK in the world and his experience is way more helpful. Rishav Pant is playing the India A games and he will be more matured till the next WC.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:37 pm

Its amazing. Dhoni will go down as one of the best, if not the best, WK batsman in the history of ODI cricket and yet on the day he passes 10,000 ODI runs people come out to claim he should be discarded with...

The mind boggles sometimes.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:39 pm

Anyway Dhoni's surreal innings ends with a wild hack to deep mid wicket

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:39 pm

eirebilly wrote:Its amazing. Dhoni will go down as one of the best, if not the best, WK batsman in the history of ODI cricket and yet on the day he passes 10,000 ODI runs people come out to claim he should be discarded with...

The mind boggles sometimes.
Time waits for no man my friend. No one has ever beaten Father Time

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by eirebilly on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:43 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Its amazing. Dhoni will go down as one of the best, if not the best, WK batsman in the history of ODI cricket and yet on the day he passes 10,000 ODI runs people come out to claim he should be discarded with...

The mind boggles sometimes.
Time waits for no man my friend. No one has ever beaten Father Time

100% and that could be the case for Dhoni if he wasn't still at the very top of his game and still the best WK batsman in the game. At least wait for him to have an extended bad run before wanting him out of the squad.

Also as said by subhranshu, he offers a lot of guidance to Kohli on the field.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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