England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

by **LondonTiger** Tue 3 Jul 2018 - 11:09

First topic message reminder :

T20s

A three match series between the 2nd (India) and 4th ranked teams in the world https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/team-rankings/t20i

Fixtures

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 17:30
Emirates Old Trafford, Manchester

Friday 6th July 2018 17:30
Sophia Gardens Cardiff, Cardiff

Sunday 8th July 2018 14:00
The Brightside Ground, Bristol

Squads

England: Morgan, Ali, Bairstow, Ball, Buttler, Curran S, ~~Curran T~~, Hales, Jordan, Plunkett, Rashid, Root, Roy, Willey (Malan in as cover for 1st game, Stokes may join for 3rd)

India: Kohli, Chahal, Chahar, Dhawan, Dhoni, Karthik, Kaul, Kuldeep Yadav, Kumar, Pandey, HH Pandya, KH Pandya, Rahul, Raina, Sharma UT Yadav

Key Men

Jos Buttler - move up the order during IPL has given him much more time to have an impact. While only ranked 26 in ICC rankings, this will improve now he opens.
Alex Hales - Formerly top ranked batter in T20s, has dropped a bit (to 7) and finds his place in the England side under threat.
Rashid/Ali - Englands spinners have thrived in the one day format, but will find the Indian batting lineup a tough test.

Virat Kohli - probably the best batsmen in the world across all 3 forms of the game. Some injury issues recently.
Chahal/Kuldeep Yadav - India look like going with two wrist spinners. England often struggle to score quickly against good spin.

ODIs

Fixtures

Another 3 match series between the the top two ranked sides in the world. Both teams will be wanting to lay down a marker before next year's world cup.

Thursday 12th July 2018 12:30
Trent Bridge, Nottingham

Saturday 14th July 2018 11:00
Lord's, London

Tuesday 17th July 2018 12:30
Emerald Headingley, Leeds

Squads

England - Eoin Morgan (capt), Moeen Ali, Jonny Bairstow, Jake Ball, Jos Buttler, Alex Hales, Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Mark Wood.

Test Series

A form of cricket in which the visitors have been much better than the hosts. The series goes deep into September as India seek to avenge the series defeat in 2014. In a manner we have become used to seeing from touring teams around the world, that series India capitulated in the final 3 tests having won the second test to take a 1-0 lead. India however look strong enough this time out to put pressure on a faltering home test team.

Fixtures

Wednesday 1st August 2018 11:00
Edgbaston, Birmingham

Thursday 9th August 2018 11:00
Lord's, London

Saturday 18th August 2018 11:00
Trent Bridge, Nottingham

Thursday 30th August 2018 11:00
Ageas Bowl, Southampton

Friday 7th September 2018 11:00
Kia Oval, London

by sirfredperry Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 13:24

Fantastic, momentum-shifting match. Rather reminds me of the 1981 Ashes series when both sides batted poorly at times (honourable exceptions included Botham and Border) and bowlers were generally on top.
Bit tough on Kohli not getting MoM award. But Curran did it with bat AND ball. I think India needed the win more than England. Had India scraped home I would have expected England to bounce back at Lord's as they rarely lose two matches in a row at home.

by KP_fan Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 13:39

--Beaten but not disgraced and very sad.....coming so close to overseas wins is not often and sad that the herculelan effort of Kohli went waste

--what the frikk was Pandya doing taking singles of the first ball when Ishant was at other end
and where were his big shots that he is in the team for at the lower end even when 9 down......he played none even when he got 5 Rashid deliveries to face

--and while bowlers stood up and assured we have the ability to take 20 wickets.....worried where are the runs coming from.....India cannot change much.....maybe get Pujara in....but for who? For dhawan would be my call.

the batting just didn't seemed focused enough to sweat it out and all fell to pokes and wafts to swinging deliveries

Stokes is the deadliest of English bowlers.....produces some unplayable rippers
I expect Eng will keep producing such seam friendly pitches throughout

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 13:43

Hello mates,

Many Many congratulation to my friends in England. Finally the better team is over the line. A disappointment for an Indian cricket fan like me, but am lucky to have experienced one of the finest display of batting by Kohli and team work by England.

The only positives we can take from here is the realisation that if we don't make changes in our batting line up ever bad defeats are on the way. Dhawan should be refrained from wearing white at least overseas. Rahul needs more advice from the original Rahul. Karun and Pant should be in the XI looking at the way they had batted in the unofficial games. Karthick should play as a full fledged batsman. Ishant should learn not to give too much opportunities to the tail. I really feel for Kohli. He is a captain who leads from front but his team is not helping him.

Again the on board discussion here is really good. It makes the match interesting. I imagine myself watching the game with fans from other side too while being here. Thanks to all here and Cheers for being part of a fantastic test match.

I hope India bounce back. (A disappointed Indian Fan)

by alfie Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 13:44

On the other hand , Sir Fred , Edgbaston is England's fortress while Lord's hasn't been so secure lately. It might well suit India better.

I agree Kohli was unfortunate not to be named MoTM ...think his efforts in losing cause deserved it , despite Curran's heroics. But they do tend to give it to the winning side ...and perhaps there was a bit of "oh , Virat has a cupboard full of these awards already - let's reward the new kid " in the choice...Certainly not complaining , young Sam was magnificent .

by alfie Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 13:53

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:Hello mates,

Many Many congratulation to my friends in England. Finally the better team is over the line. A disappointment for an Indian cricket fan like me, but am lucky to have experienced one of the finest display of batting by Kohli and team work by England.

The only positives we can take from here is the realisation that if we don't make changes in our batting line up ever bad defeats are on the way. Dhawan should be refrained from wearing white at least overseas. Rahul needs more advice from the original Rahul. Karun and Pant should be in the XI looking at the way they had batted in the unofficial games. Karthick should play as a full fledged batsman. Ishant should learn not to give too much opportunities to the tail. I really feel for Kohli. He is a captain who leads from front but his team is not helping him.

Again the on board discussion here is really good. It makes the match interesting. I imagine myself watching the game with fans from other side too while being here. Thanks to all here and Cheers for being part of a fantastic test match.

I hope India bounce back. (A disappointed Indian Fan)

Commiserations , Subu ...your fellows played their part in a terrific , entertaining Test Match. Mainly Kohli , yes , but Ashwin , Ishant ...in fact all the bowlers . Twice they battled back from well behind , and earned what seemed to be a winning edge on the third day ...but Curran's spirited fight back changed the narrative ; and once Broad claimed those early wickets it was always going to be tight.
In the end the all round excellence of the England bowling on an always somewhat helpful pitch was just too much even for Kohli ...but I don't think India should be too discouraged. Both teams have batting issues to address ; and other pitches may suit India better.

Going to be a good series , I think.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 14:06

England will really miss Stokes next week.

by CaledonianCraig Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 14:07

KP_fan wrote:--Beaten but not disgraced and very sad.....coming so close to overseas wins is not often and sad that the herculelan effort of Kohli went waste

--what the frikk was Pandya doing taking singles of the first ball when Ishant was at other end
and where were his big shots that he is in the team for at the lower end even when 9 down......he played none even when he got 5 Rashid deliveries to face

--and while bowlers stood up and assured we have the ability to take 20 wickets.....worried where are the runs coming from.....India cannot change much.....maybe get Pujara in....but for who? For dhawan would be my call.

the batting just didn't seemed focused enough to sweat it out and all fell to pokes and wafts to swinging deliveries

Stokes is the deadliest of English bowlers.....produces some unplayable rippers
I expect Eng will keep producing such seam friendly pitches throughout

Kohli is a master - a real legend but he cannot do it all on his own. Too many of his team seem content at how good he is and forget they have a bigger part to play as well. India need to get more from the whole team. That is key. Kohli, Ashwan and Ishant are the chief contributors but others must step up.

by sirfredperry Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 14:57

Both sides will want to have a look at their batting. England have been very weak in this department for some time while it was astonishing to me that India preferred Rahane to Pujara, with the former passing 17 only once in his last ELEVEN innings (incl this Test).
No doubt there will be some who will call for the dropping of Malan. But he may well get at least one more Test. Good, at least, to see him taking a sharp slip chance this morning after his earlier failings.
I think Ali will be back at some stage. Yes, he was poor in the Ashes matches last winter, but this is a guy who has had a 25-wicket series and has hit five Test hundreds.
All the Tests this year - and next - are crammed into a short period of time. But if they are going to last only 3-4 days, with no long innings, then at least it keeps the likes of Broad and Anderson fresh.

by Corporalhumblebucket Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 16:35

That was certainly a very eventful test match with momentum swinging to and fro. Very fine innings by Kohli - unfortunate not to be on winning side.

As a Surrey supporter I'm absolutely delighted for Sam Curran. If I scrolled back to posts much earlier in the Summer I'm sure I could find one where I said that he does have the ability occasionally to take a burst of wickets in quick succession, as he managed here. But I also felt that he might lack penetration on unhelpful pitches, and I doubted that his batting at its present level would make a significant contribution at test level. Too early to know whether these reservations will turn out to be justified, but he's clearly got the temperament for the big stage.

England need to look critically at their batting. I don't suppose there will be immediate wholesale changes, but they need players who can respond intelligently to the situation.

by LivinginItaly Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 17:17

I rally hope that England will look seriously at the weaknesses in their batting line up, and not think that batting depth can make up for a lack of strength in the top six. I really fear a future team with Bairstow, stokes, Buttler, Ali, Woakes and Curran from positions 4 to 9. When in reality they are a mixture of number 6s, 7s and 8s.

by msp83 Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 19:34

A very good test, disappointed India ended up on the losing side, Virat Kohli didn't deserve it, but England had more team contribution and eventually deserved to win.
Couldn't come here much on the last 2 days though I was able to catch a lot of the action. Was traveling a bit....
Think its young Sam Curran who made the eventual difference, and Ben Stokes was excellent with the ball. Anderson had the upper hand over Kohli, but Kohli came out alive from that contest, but then Curran and Stokes did not allow India to enjoy that at all.

by msp83 Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 19:43

KP_fan wrote:--Beaten but not disgraced and very sad.....coming so close to overseas wins is not often and sad that the herculelan effort of Kohli went waste

--what the frikk was Pandya doing taking singles of the first ball when Ishant was at other end
and where were his big shots that he is in the team for at the lower end even when 9 down......he played none even when he got 5 Rashid deliveries to face

--and while bowlers stood up and assured we have the ability to take 20 wickets.....worried where are the runs coming from.....India cannot change much.....maybe get Pujara in....but for who? For dhawan would be my call.

the batting just didn't seemed focused enough to sweat it out and all fell to pokes and wafts to swinging deliveries

Stokes is the deadliest of English bowlers.....produces some unplayable rippers
I expect Eng will keep producing such seam friendly pitches throughout

Agree with most of that KPF. Not sure I would have a go at Pandya though. He did much better than the others, was the closest who came anywhere near applying himself as the skipper later suggested. With the target not out of sight as such, he'd have thought of looking for the bad ball and making the most out of it rather than slogging and possibly ruin whatever chance was there.
As for team changes, Pujara for Dhawan is obvious, I know Pujara hasn't been making a lot of runs in England in the practice game or even in the CC for Yorks, and his record in England isn't great at all. But Shikhar Dhawan can't play test cricket outside the subcontinent. Rahul is better opening the innings...
Another callI would take is about the WK. No point continuing with DK. Never gave any sense of safety with the gloves and as inconsistent as ever with the bat. Pant may not be the most accomplished with the gloves at this stage of his career, but is worth investing in. And if he gets going with the bat, there is that something extra about him....

by Duty281 Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 20:09

It was a strange test, but an excellent one all the same. A great advert for the game. England came back superbly at various points, having let the match seemingly slip away on numerous occasions.

The collapse in the first innings, and the drop that cost about 130 runs off Kohli, indicated that England had let the match go. But Curran led a momentous fightback. Firstly, by capturing India's first three batsman in the first dig then, more crucially, his 63 off 65 in the second innings.

I still expect India to win the series, but this has given England every chance.

There's lots of holes in this England side. So many passengers, as previously mentioned, the absence of Stokes for the next test, crap fielding and the poor captaincy of Root. Plus, they have to contend with playing at Lord's, never the happiest of places.

India will get better as the series goes on. They won't have to rely on Kohli all the time, even though he is in imperious form. And, even if the tourists struggle with the bat, no matter: Ashwin has got half the England batting order under his spell, and Sharma is a real danger.

by KP_fan Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 20:12

msp83 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:--Beaten but not disgraced and very sad.....coming so close to overseas wins is not often and sad that the herculelan effort of Kohli went waste

--what the frikk was Pandya doing taking singles of the first ball when Ishant was at other end
and where were his big shots that he is in the team for at the lower end even when 9 down......he played none even when he got 5 Rashid deliveries to face

--and while bowlers stood up and assured we have the ability to take 20 wickets.....worried where are the runs coming from.....India cannot change much.....maybe get Pujara in....but for who? For dhawan would be my call.

the batting just didn't seemed focused enough to sweat it out and all fell to pokes and wafts to swinging deliveries

Stokes is the deadliest of English bowlers.....produces some unplayable rippers
I expect Eng will keep producing such seam friendly pitches throughout

Agree with most of that KPF. Not sure I would have a go at Pandya though. He did much better than the others, was the closest who came anywhere near applying himself as the skipper later suggested. With the target not out of sight as such, he'd have thought of looking for the bad ball and making the most out of it rather than slogging and possibly ruin whatever chance was there.
As for team changes, Pujara for Dhawan is obvious, I know Pujara hasn't been making a lot of runs in England in the practice game or even in the CC for Yorks, and his record in England isn't great at all. But Shikhar Dhawan can't play test cricket outside the subcontinent. Rahul is better opening the innings...
Another callI would take is about the WK. No point continuing with DK. Never gave any sense of safety with the gloves and as inconsistent as ever with the bat. Pant may not be the most accomplished with the gloves at this stage of his career, but is worth investing in. And if he gets going with the bat, there is that something extra about him....

On second thought and with calmer mind I agree with your assessment of Pandya
The pitch and bowling was not easy to have a go for Pandya...nor is it easy to suddenly start hitting when you are in get set, see off mode.

I wrote at at the start of test match that eventually Ind will play Pant and Pujara but that will be about T3.....

Pandya did not bowl even 10 overs in the game.......but playing a batsman in his place will not help because e batted OK
and dropping a bowler( eg Yadav) will weaken the bowling as Pandya not in the same class

We missed Bhuvi.....for his batting as much for his bowling......he is always good for an average 25 runs with the bat

by CaledonianCraig Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 22:02

KP_fan wrote:
msp83 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:--Beaten but not disgraced and very sad.....coming so close to overseas wins is not often and sad that the herculelan effort of Kohli went waste

--what the frikk was Pandya doing taking singles of the first ball when Ishant was at other end
and where were his big shots that he is in the team for at the lower end even when 9 down......he played none even when he got 5 Rashid deliveries to face

--and while bowlers stood up and assured we have the ability to take 20 wickets.....worried where are the runs coming from.....India cannot change much.....maybe get Pujara in....but for who? For dhawan would be my call.

the batting just didn't seemed focused enough to sweat it out and all fell to pokes and wafts to swinging deliveries

Stokes is the deadliest of English bowlers.....produces some unplayable rippers
I expect Eng will keep producing such seam friendly pitches throughout

Agree with most of that KPF. Not sure I would have a go at Pandya though. He did much better than the others, was the closest who came anywhere near applying himself as the skipper later suggested. With the target not out of sight as such, he'd have thought of looking for the bad ball and making the most out of it rather than slogging and possibly ruin whatever chance was there.
As for team changes, Pujara for Dhawan is obvious, I know Pujara hasn't been making a lot of runs in England in the practice game or even in the CC for Yorks, and his record in England isn't great at all. But Shikhar Dhawan can't play test cricket outside the subcontinent. Rahul is better opening the innings...
Another callI would take is about the WK. No point continuing with DK. Never gave any sense of safety with the gloves and as inconsistent as ever with the bat. Pant may not be the most accomplished with the gloves at this stage of his career, but is worth investing in. And if he gets going with the bat, there is that something extra about him....

On second thought and with calmer mind I agree with your assessment of Pandya
The pitch and bowling was not easy to have a go for Pandya...nor is it easy to suddenly start hitting when you are in get set, see off mode.

I wrote at at the start of test match that eventually Ind will play Pant and Pujara but that will be about T3.....

Pandya did not bowl even 10 overs in the game.......but playing a batsman in his place will not help because e batted OK
and dropping a bowler( eg Yadav) will weaken the bowling as Pandya not in the same class

We missed Bhuvi.....for his batting as much for his bowling......he is always good for an average 25 runs with the bat

The Indian side is full of batsmen with a healthy test average - that is not the problem in my opinion. The problem is that the Indian batsmen struggle in English conditions with a swinging Duke ball. India has the batsmen but do they have the confidence, the mentality and the technique needed to bat long in English conditions? That is what they must master as a team.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 22:49

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Rashid?!!!!!!!!!!!

Please prove me wrong.

Not just you , Duty. So , did he ?

Not sure . He did enough to keep his place for now , I'd say...and I sort of feel I should be more bullish about him as he took that vital wicket today - in a pressure situation - and the last two yesterday. Plus useful second innings batting.
I do give him credit ; just not yet certain it will work in the long term. Think we will get a better idea after Lord's , where he will probably have to bowl a lot more ...and to the top order.

For now , I give him a tick

Did his job fine for me - in this situation clearly England’s best chance to get top order bats was with the swing the seamers were getting, but he did what was needed in getting the last couple of wickets. As you say, the real test is yet to come, but promising imo

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 22:53

Also a big shoutout to the curator this week - excellent test match pitch. A bit for seam, spin and rewarded good batting too.

One expects we’ll get the usual flat rubbish at Lords this week however...

by Gooseberry Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 9:14

Good wicket, good test....even if neither side can catch or bat. But for the most part it was skilled bowling that got wickets and skilled batting that got runs. Spin and seam effective in all 4 innings.

England will be very happy with the win , but longer term theres very few positives or development on their known issues.
The ability of the seamers on county wickets with a bit of humidity cloud and a dukes ball is their strength. Whilst it was no green top its the sort of game that if they are ever going to take 20 wickets then they should do. The plus there was seeing Anderson able to bowl a lot of overs, the unit supporting each other well and all contributing as a pack, but mostly Curran stepping up and looking every bit a test bowler (in home conditions). Had the catching been up to scratch the seamers figures would look even better.
But away tests or a Lords road? Still no pace. Currans a good home bowler but his lack of height and express pace would leave him exposed if hes not getting movement from the pitch or conventional swing.
Spinner ....Rashids at least shown he can takr wickets against the Indians but also as expected leaks soft runs. On the whole Englands bowlers struggled to apply pressure through economy and come a long dredge at Lords that will be more exposed. Is Rashid good enough to force wickets on a flat pitch to settled Indian batsmen? I guess we will see.
To me outside standard county conditions England are still a team reliant on opposition batsmen getting themselves out.

The slip fielding. If anything its got worse. This is a huge issue.

The opening bats. Jennings is still in least worst category. As with Stoneman he just doesnt look good enough. Cooks still in score 200 plus or fail mode. Those two monster innings have masked a year of massive underperformance.
Root still maybe not happy at 3 and the struggles of the openers mean he will be exposed to the new ball more often than not. Still cant convert a century ....and with England heavily relying on him as their only genuinely good batsman now that means they cant expect a Kholi style single handed innings like India got.
Stokes and Buttler will always be inconsistent if dangerous batsmen. And theres still a reliance on runs from the bowlers below them to dig England out a hole.
None of this is new.

Id argue theres more positives for India. Theres changes they can make to help strengthen their batting, although as a team they have even bigger problems than England on a county wicket. At Lords though they should look a lot more confident and show their class.
Kholi making runs is huge for them. Any psychological barrier is gone now and his leadership will be enhanced. Englands planning will have to focus on restricting him which again could take some pressure off the other batsmen.
Kholi also noted hie happy he was that the team didnt chuck the towel in when under pressure as they mightve on the previous tour
Keeping that feeling that the tests matter and that its not a hopeless case is very important. At this point their camp still seems quite positive and willing to battle.

Their seamers beyond Shami stepped up (at times) and showed they can use a Dukes ball. Whilst they might not have quite the ability of Englands unit yhey didnt look as toothless as Ishant usually does in England. Theres still bowlers to come back as well.
Spinners wise Ashwin has shown hes good enough to cause mayhem for England regardless of conditions. Should their be a pitch looking more condusive to spin India know England will be terrified to face him in tandem with the other chap. If India cany play swing and seam then England really cant play quality spin.

A lot to come in this series. Expect to see at least one change in both teams for the next test. Neither camp should be happy with all aspects of the perfoamnce.

by Nathaniel Jacobs Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 9:19

Virat Kohli has dethroned Steven Smith as #1 Test batsman after his displays at Birmingham. He's also simultaneously ODI #1. Mr consistent

by LivinginItaly Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 10:15

I guess the big question is how many changes will England make for the next test. The guys who watch county cricket maybe able to give some more information on who maybe in line for a call up.

I think that the absence of Stokes at Lord's should put Buttler's position in more doubt. Why? Because the obvious replacement for Stokes at the moment is Woakes. But he is a bowler who bats rather than a genuine all rounder. So to strengthen the batting order they could bring in a batsman for Buttler.

Does Malan get another chance? Who could be a likely replacement?

Do they continue with Rashid or will they try bring back Ali?

Jennings surely must retain his place purely from the point of view of not making too many changes.

my team for Lords at the moment would probably look something like this:

Cook
Jennings
Root
Malan
Clarke / Livingstone / next big thing
Bairstow
Woakes
Curran
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

by Nathaniel Jacobs Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 10:33

Moeen for Malan
Woakes for Stokes

That's the two I'm expecting

by Gooseberry Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 11:29

Stokes may still be available if the case is adjourned, which would be fairly common.

Assuming he isnt theres a good chance Nathaniels changes are what will be made.

But it doesnt address any if Englands long term issues including trying another proper batsman who has some chance of a decent career average.
Theres also been a lot of open talk from the England camp on the need to rest/rotate Anderson and Broad through the series...when do they do that?

by JDizzle Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 12:09

Pope and Woakes in for Malan and Stokes. Bit surprised about Pope, he is obviously highly regarded but this is very early. Never really seen him play, so can’t comment too much though!

by Luke Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 12:19

JDizzle wrote:Pope and Woakes in for Malan and Stokes. Bit surprised about Pope, he is obviously highly regarded but this is very early. Never really seen him play, so can’t comment too much though!

I was wrong.
I honestly thought Malan would have continued. Woakes has played well the last year, so no surprise there.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 12:30

I am comfortable with the call up of Pope. He looks to have something about him, and I would rather they invest in youth rather than the likes of Stoneman and Malan who are over 30 with pretty average careers.

I do not expect him to play though, especially as typically he comes in at 6(?) for Surrey. Probably see Ali and Woakes in the 11.

by Duty281 Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 12:50

At last, England calling up a player based on form in the County Championship.

Early days, but Pope has an average of 63 in first-class cricket (85.5 this season). Good call. Also means one less passenger in the team, though Jennings/Buttler/Rashid still remain.

Woakes in for Stokes is, of course, a necessity, even though it weakens the batting further. It won't be long, either, before we see Anderson and Broad rotated, as the demanding schedule catches up with them.

I got on India at 11/5 to win the series before the first test, now 13/2 is available. Amazing value.

by KP_fan Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 12:58

Woakes is a good bowler...should always play ahead of likes of Curran, so he naturally comes in for Stokes and its seems Eng has announced him to be in he playing XI too

Dunno how Pope is but a good call to get in a youngster if there is room in the team when he is at his prolific best

by alfie Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 13:00

Surely Pope is there to play ? Woakes and Moeen are both all rounders and we already have too many of those...

The nonsense of a specialist bat at seven should also end : if Buttler is not keeping he has to justify a spot in the top six.

Cook Jennings Root Pope Buttler Bairstow Woakes/Moeen Curran Rashid Broad Anderson.

Swap the two JBs if you must. But Woakes cannot bat higher then seven and I'd prefer Moeen there if he gets the nod. Root - and probably Pope - still a place higher than ideal but you do wht you can with what you've got...

Lord's - without Stokes - will be tough. But India have their problems too so remains to be seen how it plays out. Half as good a match as the first it will be worth watching.

by Duty281 Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 13:07

alfie wrote:Surely Pope is there to play ? Woakes and Moeen are both all rounders and we already have too many of those...

The nonsense of a specialist bat at seven should also end : if Buttler is not keeping he has to justify a spot in the top six.

Agree with both of those points.

If Pope doesn't play, it's Bairstow at 4, Buttler at 5, Ali at 6 - silly season, in other words.

And Buttler, averaging 32, offers no worth as a pure Test batsman.

by CaledonianCraig Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 13:16

In my opinion Pope should start. The batting needs revamped and you don't revamp things by bringing in ANOTHER all-rounder. Pope is in very good county form and is no doubt young and hungry. England need to find batsmen for the future and Pope could be the one so Pope into the team to replace Malan makes sense. As for Stokes replacement I would say it should be Woakes.

by Gooseberry Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 15:24

Neither a big surprise really. Pope played in the Lions game.
Its a dissapointment for the likes of Livingstone who spent some time being the nearly man but has seen his short term chance evaporate.
There does seem to be more of an emphasis on recent form in England selections this series. Rashid over Moeen, Buttlers recall, Bess in the Pakistan series and now Pope leapfrogging others based on one series.

I think most of us would be happy to see him play whatever the makeup of the side if nothing else but to show England are trying to address a deep and long running problem in filling 3 batting spots with players who have the potential to average 40 plus in tests.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 16:11

Livingstone is currently injured, having broken his thumb against Yorkshire.

India cannot afford to lose the next game, and with T3 at Trent Bridge really need to win at Lord's. Chance of storms mean a draw should be favourite.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 16:55

I want Pope to play, but based on where he plays for Surrey I am struggling to see them selecting him at 4.

by Corporalhumblebucket Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 22:27

I really do think Pope has the class and temperament to succeed at test level. He is a very fine batsman indeed, and very much worth a go. Having said that, nothing is guaranteed - just one slip up, unplayable delivery, or piece of bad luck as a batsman and you're out, and so the pressure following two or threee low scores can mount quickly.

I think Pope has rarely - and possibly never - batted as high as no 4 for Surrey in the cc - but if he's good enough to bat for England why not try him out at no 4?! If he's selected it should be as a front line batsman.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 22:32

On the note of temperament, it should be noted Pope has received rave reviews for his work ethic and generally being a top bloke - especially this winter when he played grade cricket in Sydney, and was commended in the New South Wales parliament for his contribution to the club he played at both on and off the pitch - certainly the right type of character to be bringing in!

https://www.kiaoval.com/main-news/pope-commended-in-nsw-parliament/

I know it was noted Joe Clarke spent a lot of time with the team this week (as Pope did earlier in the summer in the Pakistan test at Lords) - I wouldn’t be surprised to see Clarke in the side soon. Expect he will tour Sri Lanka for certain

by KP_fan Mon 6 Aug 2018 - 9:47

LondonTiger wrote:Livingstone is currently injured, having broken his thumb against Yorkshire.

India cannot afford to lose the next game, and with T3 at Trent Bridge really need to win at Lord's. Chance of storms mean a draw should be favourite.

Yeah...India has to win or draw T2
a lot will depend on the pitch.....T1 was decided in 3 days and a session and could have digested a lost day and half

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 6 Aug 2018 - 17:28

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:On the note of temperament, it should be noted Pope has received rave reviews for his work ethic and generally being a top bloke - especially this winter when he played grade cricket in Sydney, and was commended in the New South Wales parliament for his contribution to the club he played at both on and off the pitch - certainly the right type of character to be bringing in!

https://www.kiaoval.com/main-news/pope-commended-in-nsw-parliament/

I know it was noted Joe Clarke spent a lot of time with the team this week (as Pope did earlier in the summer in the Pakistan test at Lords) - I wouldn’t be surprised to see Clarke in the side soon. Expect he will tour Sri Lanka for certain

Here’s a very good article on Pope’s time in Australia - https://m.cricbuzz.com/amp/cricket-news/103497/how-lates-england-cricket-player-ollie-pope-earned-parliamentary-praise#click=https://t.co/EzFQv5hP5E

Having had many pros and having one at our club at the moment (potential NZ player playing first class in NZ atm with us), I can tell you they’re not all like this! Seems he has a very good head on young shoulders.

by Gooseberry Tue 7 Aug 2018 - 8:40

Forecast for the test seems quite changeable but nothing more than patchy rain currently. Sunday looks the most vulnerable to losing overs (so most likely poor crowds again). A bit of damp in the ground and plenty of cloud around should suit the bowlers though. Although its ropasting today the temperatures are forecast to drop sharply tomorrow, so less concerns about the seamers melting on a long day and less chane of the pitch crumbling for spinners. At this point it doesnt look like we will lose so much play that a draw is inevtiable even if its the now traditional Lords road....espeically given how fragile both batting line ups look.

For England to select Moeen they will have to trust that he has refound his batting confidence/brain and look at having him at 6 or higher.
Popes position is difficult, but England are already pushing players a spot higher than theyd like. Id still argue Bairstow could/should fill the 4 role as Englands second best batsman over the past couple of years. Yes hes scored better down the order but if the logic is that Root as Englands best batsman has to take repsonsibility at 3 then Bairstow can bat 4 to give Pope some breathing space in his debut series.

by guildfordbat Tue 7 Aug 2018 - 9:02

I was away at the weekend and so a few belated comments now.

Kohli with a century, a half-century and more than twice as many runs as anyone else together with his run-out of Root should have got man of the match. It seems to be an increasing trend that it almost automatically goes to a member of the winning side which is wrong.

Not too much evidence in this Test for the Rashid jury to consider. 3/40 off 12 match overs provides a very healthy average and strike rate although probing shows two of the wickets were India's number 10 whilst the other was Kohli going big with India's Jack at the other end. Was Root's limited use of him deliberate and astute or was it more a case of not trusting him for longer? I'm certainly not won over by Rashid but, having been chosen for this opening Test, I'll concede he deserves another go.

I'm also no great fan of Buttler and certainly not at number 7. You can't meaningfully assess a batsman on just one Test but he sure had a stinker with one run from his two completed knocks. It does concern me that both Buttler and Rashid are what might loosely be termed 'luxury players' - in there to come up with something special every now and then but not really treading the hard yards. I'm not keen on having one such player in the Test team but two does seem excessive. When they are not doing their luxuriating stuff, are the other nine players good enough to carry them?

42 and 8 from Jennings. He too merits another go but his scores are Stonemanesque.

As others have flagged, Pope has great talent and character to go with it. That probably should be sufficient for him to be a direct replacement for the rightly discarded Malan at 4 although 6 is by far his regular spot for Surrey. Another option (there are several) would be for Moeen to replace Stokes but for him (Moeen) to bat at 4 allowing Pope in at 6 - I'm sure Alfie wouldn't like Mo there! A further option I like far less is to leave Pope on the bench with both Mo and Woakes returning - never mind the quality, feel the width!

by **LondonTiger** Tue 7 Aug 2018 - 9:07

Steve James in The Times wrote:
Ollie Pope is talented but straight in England Test side at No 4? It’s a big ask

From No 6 for your county to No 4 for your country: that is the leap that Ollie Pope will probably be making if he is selected in the final XI this week at Lord’s.

To clarify: in his 13 County Championship matches, Pope, 20, has never batted higher than No 6 for Surrey. His side’s wicketkeeper, Ben Foakes, always bats a place above him. The only time that Pope has ventured above No 6 in first-class cricket was at No 5 for England Lions against India A last month.

As Pope is replacing Dawid Malan, it looks as though he will bat at No 4, a lofty and rather important position, as evidenced by the identity of India’s No 4, a chap by the name of Virat Kohli. For me it is a leap that might even have concerned Greg Rutherford in his prime. Apologies if this is a pragmatic view amid the excited romanticism around Pope’s elevation.

He can clearly bat, as his stunning figures this season testify (averaging 85.50 in eight championship matches), and has immense promise, but I have always held the view that prospective Test batsmen should be batting in the top four for their counties.

Of course, there have been exceptions to that rule — Jos Buttler is a present example and Kevin Pietersen was batting No 5 for Hampshire when picked in 2005 — but for confirmation of the dangers of plucking county players from lower in the order, I always point to Aftab Habib’s selection for two Tests in 1999. He was scoring a lot of runs for Leicestershire at No 5 but the selectors probably should have gone for the better player, Ben Smith, who never did get a cap but made runs for the same county at No 4.

There is a big difference. The top four are your big four. They face the new ball. They face the best bowlers at their freshest. They shape the game. They usually win you games.

Yes, at No 5 and No 6 you can face the second new ball, but that is not the same. Yes, you can arrive in a crisis, but often that can be a pressure-free scenario anyway, as so little is expected of you.

So it is entirely right that Pope has been batting at No 6 for Surrey. That is where a free-flowing young batsman should be introduced to the professional first-class game, sometimes with a veteran whose best days have passed alongside him at No 5 (Viv Richards batted there for Glamorgan in his twilight years).

That is where he can watch and learn and, in these days of four-day cricket, make a substantial score even when arriving with plenty on the board. Pope, a fine cutter and cover-driver, likes to play his shots and has been able to do so. One of his three centuries this season, a superb 158 not out, was made from his side being 69 for four against Yorkshire, but the average score upon his arrival at the crease has been 176. He has not been in too many crises.

Surrey were planning to move him up the order in the next year or so, increasing his responsibilities. They also worried about his being promoted internationally too early. You can see why, but the depressing lack of genuine alternatives has accelerated the process. If England were selecting Pope at No 6, it might be different — that is also where the international tyros should start in Test cricket — but their middle order is a muddle, even with Ben Stokes’s absence.

There is a situation this week whereby Pope misses out and Chris Woakes and Moeen Ali are selected, allowing four seamers and two spinners, but more likely is Pope’s debut and one of Woakes or Ali playing, depending on the pitch.

If not Pope, who can bat at No 4? Ali batted there in three Tests in India in 2016 (he has also opened and batted at No 3 in Tests), making 146 in Chennai, but it would surely only be a temporary measure. Jonny Bairstow could bat there but, while he has the gloves, that is too high in the order. You could argue that his position of No 5 is too high for a gloveman anyway and that very few stumpers have managed to bat there successfully — probably only Zimbabwe’s Andy Flower did so over a long period without it overly affecting his batting.

In an ideal world you might have Bairstow at No 4, then Stokes, Pope and Buttler as wicketkeeper. But obviously not this week and not at any time if Bairstow has his way. He is keen to keep the gloves, reasoning that, first, he has done a good job (which he has) and, second, that it takes pressure off his batting.

That Buttler keeps wicket in one-day internationals and Bairstow opens the batting is another oddity that transfers itself to the Test squad as an impression that too many square pegs are still being tried in too many round holes.

Amid that Pope now finds himself. It is a glorious opportunity. He may take it wonderfully well and you might wonder what the fuss was about. I hope that is the case. But the line between bravery and recklessness is as fine in cricketing selection as it is in any other sphere of life. This is a big ask.

Who will replace Malan in the top order?

Ollie Pope
Yet to play a Test match and has never batted at No 4.
First-class matches: 15
Runs: 1,012
Highest score: 158*
Average: 63.25

Moeen Ali
Tests: 50
Highest score: 155*
Average: 32.40
Tests batting at No 4: Three
Highest score: 146
Average: 51.20

Jonny Bairstow
Tests: 55
Highest score: 167*
Average: 38.64
Tests batting at No 4: One
Highest score: 15
Average: 15

How youngsters compare
Pope will be the fifth-youngest men to bat in England’s top six. Here’s how the four other youngsters fared on debut:

Jack Crawford
Debut aged 19
Scored 44 and 43 v South Africa

Denis Compton
Debut aged 19
Hit 65 in one innings v New Zealand

Brian Close
Debut aged 18
Out for a duck against New Zealand

Haseeb Hameed
Debut aged 19
Scored 31 and 82 in India

by LivinginItaly Tue 7 Aug 2018 - 13:42

Of course another possibility, however unlikely, would be to play Pope, Ali and Woakes with Buttler missing out

by **LondonTiger** Tue 7 Aug 2018 - 14:25

LivinginItaly wrote:Of course another possibility, however unlikely, would be to play Pope, Ali and Woakes with Buttler missing out

I would have more confidence in Pope batting at 6 ahead of Buttler certainly. If Bairstow moves up to 4, Buttler has to take the gloves for me. Sadly whatever we do with the batting it is a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

by KP_fan Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 12:21

The Buzz in the media and created by the media that India might play a 6th batsman. I see this as mental gymnastics with little real substance for following reasons

--the proponents of above don't answer who will Pujara come in for as the 6th batsman

-The natural answer in their mind in Pandya.....but Pandya hasn't failed completely he did scores of 22 and 32( second highest scorer in 2nd inning) and looked comfortable until he got out
So he can't be dumped, without failing...as it puts a question mark over the process of Fair-run

--the only other way of playing the 6th batsman is in place of Umesh...but that leaves us with only 3 and a half bowlers....so not do-able

--the only other way Pujara can come in is in place of Rahul or Dhawan.....and while I would prefer him in place of Dhawan...bear in mind with his 26 runs Dhawan was the 2nd highest scorer in first innings and another 15 in the second inning.......and with those starts cannot be dumped in the second test itself .

And of they replace him for Rahul, they are bringing a less capable batsman for a more capable one in terms of scoring rate given they are equal in technique

--I do believe India could swap Yadav for Yadav i.e Kuldeep for Umesh.......which will allow India better utilization of Pandya as the 3rd seamer where with his bouncers and 80-88mph pace variations he will do a fair job.
Because as a 4th seamer in a low scoring game he suffers from not getting enough bowling opportunity

and Having a 2nd spinner of Kuldeep's quality...adds an extra potency especially in getting rid of "tailenders" like Curran and Broad and Woakes from getting away to 40s and 50s and 60s......via a mystery spinner like Kuldeep

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 12:32

I agree with KPF that India should look at the 3 seamers, two spinner approach - if nothing else because it's England. We saw how they played Ashwin, add another spinner rather than a seamer who they prefer facing.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 13:01

Root confirms Pope will bat at 4, and a decision will be made in the morning about whether Woakes or Moeen play in the final spot. Porter definitely misses out

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 13:09

I want Mo, cos I think he can recover his batting prowess and force himself in as an option, but you could see Woakes having luck with movement in a British summer and being a real handful

by Duty281 Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 13:20

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Root confirms Pope will bat at 4, and a decision will be made in the morning about whether Woakes or Moeen play in the final spot. Porter definitely misses out

Sound decision. Would prefer Woakes over Moeen given the conditions and the opposition.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 13:28

Yeah as much as I’d love to see Moeen play, I don’t think you can go into the test with Curran as a third seamer in a three man pace attack yet

by king_carlos Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 14:12

I'm happy to see Pope given a shot - I think he has the talent and as importantly temperament for the big stage - but I agree with the Steve James article that no 4 is too high. Ideally a lad like Pope would be starting at 6 behind a settled middle order and with a strong wicketkeeper-batsman at 7. That's simply not the situation England's batting is in though and I like that Smith has backed a young player who's shining in the CC.

It looks like we will see:

1.Cook
2.Jennings
3.Root (c)
4.Pope
5.Bairstow (wk)
6.Buttler
7.Moeen/Woakes
8.Curran
9.Rashid
10.Broad
11.Anderson

It's a 'muddled' batting order to say the least but it does at least contain another player who I think has the talent to score important runs at test level - even if Pope is being called upon very early and too high up the order.

From the bowling perspective it's the same old story of if the ball swings they should be lethal and if it doesn't then there could be some long days in the field.

by Gooseberry Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 15:14

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Yeah as much as I’d love to see Moeen play, I don’t think you can go into the test with Curran as a third seamer in a three man pace attack yet

Gotta question why youd love to see him play ...

But yes a 3 man seam attack seems to be well off the cards. Andersons already shouldered too many overs in a low scoring test. Currans stamina is an issue too, but even if he were swapped for Woakes it leaves Englands resources exposed. It wouldnt be so bad if either spinner could be relied on to bowl tightly but they can't. Nor is there much evidence that the pitch will be brilliant for spinners, or that India would be in any way uncomfortable against spin (aside from what Moeen acheived a few years ago when they tried to hit him out of the attack).

Moeen could still be accomodated as part of a 6 man bowling unit if England backed him as a batsman, and treated him as a support bowler only. And were willing to drop Buttler. In theory he is a better batsman than Stokes, but reality is he hasnt shown any form since last summer and it would leave the side even more of a rag bag of all rounders than usual.

So really his only chance is to replace Rashid, enabling 4 seamers to play by offsetting Stokes for Woakes in the batting column. Rough on Rashid who acquited himslef pretty well with the ball in the limited chances he was given.

Whichever way you cut it England were already playing players a position too high, and still have real problems with the openers. Adding Pope into the mix only exacerbates the situation. Looking at the players who are performing in the CC though theres very few who arent already past it or non qualified (or both). It is a shame that neither Burns nor Gubbins made much of their audition with the Lions. The only other is Clarke whos another whod ideally come in at 5 or 6.
Taking the gloves off Bairstow and asking him to play 4, and bringing in Foakes for Buttler (as the best gloveman available and one of the top bats in county cricket) is exactly the sort of thing that England just wont do.

Englands issues have remained pretty unchanged for years now. Theres a genuine failure of the development programmes / county cricket to bring through top 3 bats, spinners, and fast bowlers. We do have a lot of good dukes ball bowlers who can bat a bit, and endless wicket keeper batsmen. Works for short form...not for tests.

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