Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Page 18 of 20 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 17, 18, 19, 20  Next

Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

So we made it to the end of the 2017/18 season.  We've seen/endured the first year of Bernard Jackman's plan.  I think most of us have been through a rollercoaster of emotions, similar to previous seasons but perhaps even more so this season given the new injection of life and investment into the Dragons.  First there was the hope - the new coaches, some new players, the new pitch, new chairman, new cash injection.  Then we started to stumble - it's all down to the new coach and getting used to the new systems, we said.  Then came the face plant and the realisation that this trend was going to carry on for the whole season - a couple of wins in the league, a few in Europe, a lot of spankings, not many losing bonus points.  Very poor return.  The hope turned to despair and BJ's methods were being questioned.  Then the hope comes again with the announcement of new signings ('stellar' signings, compared to previous years!) and the assurance that the 1st year of the plan was always going to be difficult and that year 2 would be the one to judge BJ on.....  

So.......on to year 2 (2018/19).  Where are we?  What are our expectations (realistically)?  What's the best team we can put out on paper and how competitive will it be?  For a number of years we've been stuffed in the league so seem to try to get some solace from a decent showing in the Euro 2nd tier comp.  However, should we forget about Europe and try to put all of our focus on the league?  I think so.

Transfers - we've lost more than we've gained, although the quality of the transfers in could/should be better than those leaving.  But I'm worried we'll be thin on the ground when the inevitable injuries hit.

Players In: = 14
Jordan Williams from England Bristol Bears
Rhodri Williams from England Bristol Bears
Ross Moriarty from England Gloucester
Rhodri Davies from England Rotherham Titans
Richard Hibbard from England Gloucester
Huw Taylor from England Worcester Warriors
Josh Lewis from England Bath
Ryan Bevington from England Bristol Bears
Aaron Jarvis from France Clermont
Dafydd Howells from Wales Ospreys
Tiaan Loots from Wales RGC 1404
Jacob Botica from Wales RGC 1404
Rhys Lawrence from England Ealing Trailfinders
Brandon Nansen from France

Players Out: - =21
Sarel Pretorius to South Africa Southern Kings
Phil Price to Wales Scarlets
Scott Andrews to Wales Neath
Luke Garrett to Wales Neath
Adam Hughes retired
Pat Howard to England Ealing Trailfinders
Rhys Buckley to Wales Bargoed
Barney Nightingale to Wales Bargoed
Keagan Bale to Wales Bargoed
Angus O'Brien to Wales Scarlets
Nicky Thomas to Wales Scarlets (return from short-term loan)
Dorian Jones to France Angoulême
Charlie Davies to England Northampton Saints
Lloyd Lewis to Wales Pontypool
Sam Beard to New Zealand Canterbury
Sam Hobbs released
Thomas Davies released
Liam Belcher released
Ashley Sweet released
Robson Blake released
Carl Meyer released

I'll try to update the Ins and Outs as we go.


Last edited by The Oracle on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down


Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Brendan on Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:59 am

True
Finishing 4th gets you the Euro playoff

Brendan

Posts : 2723
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:01 am

It was coming... I’ve never been so convinced that we were going to part ways with a coach. Everything about the set-up on and off the field is so amateurish. Mallinder would be good, he had Saints as a top 4 team for a number of years. If not then a super rugby coach would be good.... I also can’t see Lancaster coming in, particularly if he thinks he has another shot at the England job.

Even under a good coach I think we could still do with some new recruits if we want to improve, just maybe a TH and lock forward. Nansen is a 6 for me. If we keep our internationals and get some additional strength in the front 5 then it’s not unrealistic to think we can challenge teams like Leinster.

mikey_dragon

Posts : 9486
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by miaow on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am

mikey_dragon wrote:If we keep our internationals and get some additional strength in the front 5 then it’s not unrealistic to think we can challenge teams like Leicester.

Fixed that for you.

Wait...no...

mikey_dragon wrote:If we keep our internationals and get some additional strength in the front 5 then it’s not unrealistic to think we can challenge teams like Leominster.

There we go.

miaow

Posts : 5014
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by miaow on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:36 am

In all seriousness, Jackman had the look of someone out of his depth since he first came in. A bit of a middle manager air about him - someone who could impress in a board meeting, perhaps, and knew the right things to say, which boxes to tick.

But when it came down to really understanding - and, the tricky part, executing - what needed to be done to show even some improvement, he was clearly lacking.

The idea of bringing back a load of ex-Wales players was admirable, but it needs a powerful man to get the likes of Hibbard motivated to put in a performance week in, week out in the Pro14. Jackman simply isn't that man - I don't think he was really suited to a Head Coach role, let alone when it required such a massive overhaul.

Cannot see who the Dragons can attract. As mentioned earlier, it's almost a hiding to nothing. Best option would be to get value for money - a coach who's had their fingers burnt, but is clearly better than the Dragons. Mallinder seems ideal, could be a Lancaster-type who could pass the reigns on to a young Welsh coaching team after 3-4 years.

Hate to be provincial, but if the WRU can't get a proven value-for-money coach in, would they not be better off giving it to a young, unproven-at-this-level Welsh coach? For all that Jackson wil have learnt at the Dragons (great for him and possibly an Irish province in the future) how much did the Dragons gain from him? In which case, why half @ss this appointment by getting a Jackson when, if you're going to take a risk, take a risk on someone who might ultimately benefit Welsh rugby at the end of it, even if they don't turn the region into play-off contenders.

Reading Mike Ruddock's interview on the BBC and it strikes me useful it might be to get a coach in who has a connection to the area. The Dragons seem so lacking in both a professional identity, as well as a cultural/historical/romantic identity, that might not be a bad thing to think about, even if it's below the Head Coach/DoR.

miaow

Posts : 5014
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:20 am

Who are you talking to Mikey?! Miaow?! I thought that post was good! Always like reading Miaow’s posts.


On Miaow’s point about a local coach, that’s what we thought would happen with Kingsley. It was hailed as a ‘man of Gwent’ appointment, and he talked of uniting Gwent and being proud as a Gwent man, but didn’t help much in the end (probably better than Jackman though). Not sure who else there is from Gwent with decent coaching credentials. Jason Strange?

The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Brendan on Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:52 am

Coach being from the area and players from the area are great and all that but a winning coach and team will unite fans and a region quicker.

Look at Glasgow for what a winning team does for the fans/attendances

Brendan

Posts : 2723
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:03 am

Gatland seemed to be heavily involved in the appointment of Jackman. Not sure how or why but he/the WRU need to take some responsibility for this.

Anyone know what the link is between Gatland and Jackman, apart from both being hookers (and not the sort you get down in Pill, although not far off)?
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:56 am

The Oracle wrote:Who are you talking to Mikey?! Miaow?! I thought that post was good! Always like reading Miaow’s posts.


On Miaow’s point about a local coach, that’s what we thought would happen with Kingsley. It was hailed as a ‘man of Gwent’ appointment, and he talked of uniting Gwent and being proud as a Gwent man, but didn’t help much in the end (probably better than Jackman though). Not sure who else there is from Gwent with decent coaching credentials. Jason Strange?


Well he has a knack for following me around and displaying extraordinary behaviour, back from hiatus too soon, oh well.


I’ve seen a lot of crying about developing homegrown coaches around social media. These coaches simply aren’t there. Jason Strange could be good one day, but are we really the best place for him? Are Ospreys? Are Blues? All the teams seem to be struggling on the field, and that won’t change without good investment and recruitment of good coaches. I think we’d just continue how we are unless we get an experienced coach with a good track record. Mallinder fits the bill. I can’t think of an available welsh coach who fits?

mikey_dragon

Posts : 9486
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:58 am

The Oracle wrote:Gatland seemed to be heavily involved in the appointment of Jackman. Not sure how or why but he/the WRU need to take some responsibility for this.

Anyone know what the link is between Gatland and Jackman, apart from both being hookers (and not the sort you get down in Pill, although not far off)?

No idea, unless they became good mates right after his cheap shot on Ryan Jones? You’re right about the WRU and Gatland sharing some of the blame though.

mikey_dragon

Posts : 9486
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by munkian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:07 pm

Ruddock please.
munkian
munkian

Posts : 8456
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 38
Location : Bristol/The Port

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by RDW on Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:54 pm

Mikey - absolutely no need for that reaction to a completely sensible and non-antagonistic post from miaow (something your fellow posters also commented on). I've removed it.

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 28255
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:27 pm

Brendan wrote:Coach being from the area and players from the area are great and all that but a winning coach and team will unite fans and a region quicker.

Exactly right. Of course, we'll struggle to get a good proven coach, but that has to be the road we go down. I'm tired of the Dragons being a project. I don't want someone who's learning on the job.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by miaow on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:35 pm

The problem the Dragons have is the kind of thing Jackman presumably promised to address - who/what/how are they. Identity, playing style, values, missions...all that sort of thing that gets heads nodding in a boardroom but, ultimately, Jackman wasn't able to go out and manifest it.

Glasgow were mentioned above and it's an interesting comparison. Of course, get a team winning, and the region/club will improve the fan culture/whole atmosphere. The problem is, with the greatest respect in the world, Newport isn't Glasgow. And crucially, Gwent isn't to the WRU what Glasgow Warriors is to the SRU.

Scotland have two 'regions' - effectively, east and west, with 50 miles between them. Not sure how the highlands, islands, borders etc get distributed in the development of those regions, but their two clubs are their two major cities (Edinburgh just under 500,00 population; Glasgow just under 600,000 - with plenty more surrounding both).

Newport apparently has a population of just under 150,000, with the surrounding area taking that up to just over 300,000...but the issue here, of course, is that Newport lies 15 miles away from Cardiff. Those 300,000 start bleeding into identifying less with Newport/Gwent, if at all, and - particularly if they're commuting into/near the capital - become another part of the 'Cardiff metropolitan' area.

All of this mattters when it comes to comparing with Glasgow because, really, they're not analagous when it comes to the bare bones. Glasgow are one of only two top level clubs the SRU has where the Dragons are one of four. Moreover, Glasgow has had a rapidly growing middle class in recent years who are highly unlikely to get attached to the issues that come with supporting a football club in that city - all of which makes Glasgow's rise, and increase in support, realistic and sustainable.

I don't see how the Dragons can get near Glasgow on those terms; 'who' they are is fundamentally different because of 'what' (and where) they are. They don't have the romance, history, and now financial solvency of the Scarlets; they haven't flourished like the Ospreys did in the Galactico era; and they're not the capital city.

If you look at RGC, they have everything the Dragons don't have. They're not burdened by the problematic history of trying to create a region by conjoining existing, partisan clubs, yet they've made Colwyn Bay a home. They're geographically distant from the clubs they're competing against so don't have that struggle with identity - but their 'newness' is a downfall as well, as obviously football is the dominant force in that area. The rugby isn't in the same league as the Dragons, obviously, even before the introduction of the A league and making the Premiership the 'third tier'. But it does have crucial things, like Glasgow, that the Dragons lack.

What they have done is become, on the field, is not only adequate, but also a good development team. The Dragons have done this - two that stand out for me are Hallam Amos and Dan Lydiate. Wales needs a pathway for rural rugby, which exists in West Wales, but can sometimes struggle further north. Lydiate was one such success story. In Amos, they had someone who came from the public (private) school system and I would presume Monmouth School is a fertile ground for rugby players with the wealth/resources at their disposal. Surely those are two big routes for the Dragons to take in terms of grassroots rugby development?

I have an honest question for Dragons supporters though: do you believe in the 'Gwent region'? Do you feel and believe in that identity? Do you know many others who do outside the die-hard (hard Dai) rugby supporters, who first and foremost want a team to support? Is there genuinely a strong youth/development rugby culture where you live in an area where Cardiff FC/Fortnite/Snapchat all pose a threat in drawing young people away from the game? Those aren't easy questions to answer, I'm sure, but I'm genuinely interested in what people have to say.

I'm not saying the Dragons should become a development team, not at all. That would be a death knell. They want to become the Connacht of Pat Lam, not before he arrived. But they need an identity, a style, that goes beyond playing their best rugby when the derbies come around. And I don't think they should be scrapped either. They need the WRU's support to become a properly functioning region and rugby team but obviously that's not easily done. There's a danger of being left behind as the club game is definitely in a stage of transition - SA/Italian clubs coming and possibly going, the English Premiership changing, the global season up for debate. If the Pro14 were to dramatically change in the next few years what would the Dragons do to survive/flourish? I think that question is key.

My temptation would be to try and make the Dragons into a strong, forward-centric rugby team. Wales needs a hard Leicester/Exeter/Munster style team, even if not at that level. But perhaps that goes against the grain of youth development.

Mike Ruddock would also be ideal but he's obviously not coming back to Wales, and don't blame him.

miaow

Posts : 5014
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:53 pm

Newport apparently has a population of just under 150,000, with the surrounding area taking that up to just over 300,000...but the issue here, of course, is that Newport lies 15 miles away from Cardiff. Those 300,000 start bleeding into identifying less with Newport/Gwent, if at all, and - particularly if they're commuting into/near the capital - become another part of the 'Cardiff metropolitan' area. wrote:

And that my friend, is one of the fundamental reasons why the regions are struggling, set-up as a mess from the outset.

Newport and Cardiff should have been one region, East Wales, I do not want to think how much money has been wasted at Newport on a continual failing enterprise from the outset.

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:22 pm

Hang on Dowlais, weren't you dead against the Celtic Warriors folding and people from Pontypridd being forced to support the Blues? It takes even less time to travel to Cardiff from Pontypridd than it does from Newport.

Miaow, I sort of get what you're saying, but I don't know anyone from Newport who claims to be from 'the Cardiff metroplitan area'. I used to get the train to Cardiff for work but I was then, as I am now, from Newport. Even when I lived in Cardiff I still wasn't from Cardiff.

I do actually remember some woman on a BBC programme being asked where she was from, and she said 'Tredegar, near Cardiff', but I wouldn't used that as an indicator of anything, other than the woman's stupidity.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Brendan on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:25 pm

Only reason I compared Glasgow to Dragon is they were struggling to get over 3k until they started being good. Now they get double that and could possibly get triple if they had more seats.

Just because you become middle class you don't stop being a football fan.  Each week 40-60k people from Glasgow go to games of football, add in all the people who watch at home.  It is a football mad city yet once the rugby team started winning so did the support structures and the fan turnout.

I often hear how the Ospreys are the one true region. Does that have anything to do with how successful they were in the early years.  In Ireland we had what was called blue Munster fans who lived in Leinster outside south Dublin who supported Munster as they were winning and Leinster weren't.  You would be hard pressed to find a blue Munster fan now

Brendan

Posts : 2723
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Brendan on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:32 pm

Brendan wrote:Only reason I compared Glasgow to Dragon is they were struggling to get over 3k until they started being good. Now they get double that and could possibly get triple if they had more seats.

Just because you become middle class you don't stop being a football fan.  Each week 40-60k people from Glasgow go to games of football, add in all the people who watch at home.  It is a football mad city yet once the rugby team started winning so did the support structures and the fan turnout.

I often hear how the Ospreys are the one true region. Does that have anything to do with how successful they were in the early years.  In Ireland we had what was called blue Munster fans who lived in Leinster outside south Dublin who supported Munster as they were winning and Leinster weren't.  You would be hard pressed to find a blue Munster fan now

Sorry Celtic (57.5k), Rangers (49k) and Patrick (4.5k) get over 110k for home games

Brendan

Posts : 2723
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:34 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Hang on Dowlais, weren't you dead against the Celtic Warriors folding and people from Pontypridd being forced to support the Blues? It takes even less time to travel to Cardiff from Pontypridd than it does from Newport.

You are correct, I was against them folding. But that does not detract from the fact that it was a mess from the outset, Pontypridd was never the ideal place for a region, and pairing them with Bridgend was stupid idea. But Pontypridd are not East Wales.

The way i see it, there should be East Wales, West Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys and North Wales.

Not 4 teams all along the M4.

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:39 pm

Brendan wrote:
Brendan wrote:Only reason I compared Glasgow to Dragon is they were struggling to get over 3k until they started being good. Now they get double that and could possibly get triple if they had more seats.

Just because you become middle class you don't stop being a football fan.  Each week 40-60k people from Glasgow go to games of football, add in all the people who watch at home.  It is a football mad city yet once the rugby team started winning so did the support structures and the fan turnout.

I often hear how the Ospreys are the one true region. Does that have anything to do with how successful they were in the early years.  In Ireland we had what was called blue Munster fans who lived in Leinster outside south Dublin who supported Munster as they were winning and Leinster weren't.  You would be hard pressed to find a blue Munster fan now

Sorry Celtic (57.5k), Rangers (49k) and Patrick (4.5k) get over 110k for home games

There are a lot more teams than that in and around Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Hamilton, St Mirren, Motherwell, Queens Park, Dumbarton, Greenock Morton and Clydebank.

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:52 pm

What's that got to do with anything?

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by SecretFly on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:57 pm

Brendan wrote: You would be hard pressed to find a blue Munster fan now

Oh I don't know about that. I still have a hankering for the rustic lads. A damn fine bunch of men who held our pride tails up in Europe no matter which part of Munster you were from - I was from the North Leinster part Wink

SecretFly

Posts : 31231
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:22 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:What's that got to do with anything?

Look, don't get all tetchy with me just because I gave an opinion to what miaow has said. Very Happy

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:28 pm

I wasn't getting tetchy, I just don't understand what Greenock Morton and Partick Thistle have to do with the debate.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:33 pm

He was comparing and adding up attendances, there are more he needs to consider, thats all.

What about everything else I have said ? Want to debate that with me ?

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by RiscaGame on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:36 pm

Anybody excited to see who the world class coach is, we have coming in?

RiscaGame

Posts : 3109
Join date : 2016-01-25

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Hang on Dowlais, weren't you dead against the Celtic Warriors folding and people from Pontypridd being forced to support the Blues? It takes even less time to travel to Cardiff from Pontypridd than it does from Newport.

You are correct, I was against them folding. But that does not detract from the fact that it was a mess from the outset, Pontypridd was never the ideal place for a region, and pairing them with Bridgend was stupid idea. But Pontypridd are not East Wales.

The way i see it, there should be East Wales, West Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys and North Wales.

Not 4 teams all along the M4.

‘Ponty was never the ideal place for a region’??? I’ve seen you post and argue many times over the years that the Valleys should/could have a regional side and i’ve seen you suggest it should be based in Ponty! Where would your Mid Wales/Valleys regional mentioned above be based?

Also, being a bit pedantic but Newport and Cardiff are not in East Wales.
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:47 pm

The Oracle wrote:‘Ponty was never the ideal place for a region’??? I’ve seen you post and argue many times over the years that the Valleys should/could have a regional side and i’ve seen you suggest it should be based in Ponty! Where would your Mid Wales/Valleys regional mentioned above be based?

Merthyr Tydfil. OK

The Oracle wrote:Also, being a bit pedantic but Newport and Cardiff are not in East Wales.

South East then, and yes you are being as usual, pedantic. Rolling Eyes

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:52 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Anybody excited to see who the world class coach is, we have coming in?

I wish someone would take Robin Davey's phone off him!

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by RiscaGame on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:57 pm

I know ha.

RiscaGame

Posts : 3109
Join date : 2016-01-25

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:‘Ponty was never the ideal place for a region’??? I’ve seen you post and argue many times over the years that the Valleys should/could have a regional side and i’ve seen you suggest it should be based in Ponty! Where would your Mid Wales/Valleys regional mentioned above be based?

Merthyr Tydfil. OK

The Oracle wrote:Also, being a bit pedantic but Newport and Cardiff are not in East Wales.

South East then, and yes you are being as usual, pedantic. Rolling Eyes


Good luck with that Sad

So which of the Scarlets or Ospreys would you scrap as well?
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:10 pm

The Oracle wrote:So which of the Scarlets or Ospreys would you scrap as well?

Neither. I would merge them, West Wales.

They could play games at each ground, take things, around the region. OK

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:12 pm

The Oracle wrote:Good luck with that

It's the most sensible choice for a Valleys/Mid Wales region. Also, we could take games to Ebbw, amongst others.

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:16 pm

They are in South Wales you plum! Look on a map. West Wales is Aberystwyth, Aberaeron, Newquay, etc.

So you plan to get away from having regions based on the M4 corridor is to rename them East and West and base them not in the East and West of the country but to base them in the south on the M4 corridor? Hmmm. That’ll get the East and West Walians flocking through the turnstiles.


Last edited by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by miaow on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:33 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Miaow, I sort of get what you're saying, but I don't know anyone from Newport who claims to be from 'the Cardiff metroplitan area'. I used to get the train to Cardiff for work but I was then, as I am now, from Newport. Even when I lived in Cardiff I still wasn't from Cardiff.

I do actually remember some woman on a BBC programme being asked where she was from, and she said 'Tredegar, near Cardiff', but I wouldn't used that as an indicator of anything, other than the woman's stupidity.

It's a tricky subject, talking about identity, and I mean it specifically in relation to that Gwent/Dragons identity, really. But I suppose I should clarify. I have family in Cardiff but it's not an area I know massively well. However, of all the people I've met over the years, lots through university, from around Newport, many do, as you say, describe themselves as being 'near Cardiff'. I suppose the counter to that would be how many people west of the Loughor would instantaneously say they live 'near Swansea', even though it's just as accuarate?

In any case, that relates more to regional rugby identity in the areas outside Newport, I should add. Newport is dealing with a population of 150k, but that doubles when you factor in those just outside (according to a google search, so please forgive the stats). My point is, how many of those extra 150k are identifying strongly with Newport/Gwent/Dragons over, say, being Welsh, from South Wales, and/or near Cardiff? I'd think it wouldn't be all of them, but then I may be wrong?

In any case, I only referenced that in relation to the Scottish cities as a comparison. The vast majority of Scotland lives in and around Glasgow and Edinburgh - that's loads of fans to potentially 'come in' to the cities as supporters, much like Exeter have done in Devon (and even Cornwall!), without a geographically close competitor. With Cardiff so close - without even going into the historical club issues - there isn't the same potential for expansion, I would have thought, so you can't compare like for like with Glasgow (realise this wasn't you who said that, so forgive me if you think I'm arguing with you on this point!)

Brendan wrote:Just because you become middle class you don't stop being a football fan.  Each week 40-60k people from Glasgow go to games of football, add in all the people who watch at home.  It is a football mad city yet once the rugby team started winning so did the support structures and the fan turnout.

Of course not, but I was speaking more in terms of migration to Glasgow (and Edinburgh, but that's always been a lot posher). With Glasgow Uni growing quite signficantly, and also the cultural drive in the city, you're getting lots more English people moving there, as well as people from all over the world, if only for a few years, following a job. My point isn't just class related, but also cultural - the football will always be far more popular, but I don't see too many 'outsiders' (other than perhaps Irish) choosing, presumably arbitrarily, Celtic or Rangers given the history of that rivalry and the potential consequences. Glasgow Warriors are a one city team, and therefore far more accessible for either newly affluent Scottish people moving into the city from elsewhere, or non-Scottish people. Don't want to get too hung up on that point, but I don't think it's that contentious, is it?

miaow

Posts : 5014
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by miaow on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:41 pm

Also, I didn't mean to derail this into a thread about whether the regions should have been different. That's been absolutely done to death.

With the regions as they are, how do the Dragons proceed and flourish?

The points I'd ask - as I said above - are:

- Whether there is a genuine 'Gwent' identity to build upon?

- How are you going to grow the region in terms of youth development from outside the geographical area of Newport (Lydiate and Amos)?

- What are you aiming for on the field that will set you apart from running rugby (Scarlets) and kicking game (Ospreys)? How can you attract a certain type of coach and player (i.e. Exeter replacing Leicester as the 'tough forwards' team in England; Connacht becoming a place for Pacific Islander/All Black talent under Lam) who may otherwise go to another club in the Pro14 or even the Gallagher Premiership?

miaow

Posts : 5014
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:30 pm

I've always had a sense of a Gwent identity because I went to a Welsh-medium comprehensive in Trevethin (is was in Abercarn before that) which served the whole county, so I had friends and classmates from Brynmawr, Cwmbran, Blackwood, all over. It doesn't feel forced or contrived for me.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:53 pm

I also find it easy to identify with Gwent. Growing up ‘Gwent’ was still a thing, from a local government point of view. Although it’s gone officially I still feel some sort of link between the county boroughs that it was divided into. Plus, I have family in other areas of Gwent and people often moved down the valley, not across it, for work so you see lots of people who were from further up the valley (e.g. Ebbw Vale, Blaina) now in places like Newport where they moved for work (people like my father). I’ve also worked for a number of organisations that are pan-Gwent so for me it’s always been something fairly obvious with a defined territory and people.

Plus, everyone outside of Cardiff hates Cardiff! Everyone I know in Gwent dislikes Cardiff because there’s the feeling that the welsh government are very Cardiff-centric and all the funding for every thing goes to them. This is the same as the feeling between places like Pontypridd and Cardiff too. Of course, there’s dislike of Newport by people outside of Newport because, well, it’s not the valleys and it’s full of ‘townies’. Hence the difficulty with regionalism. But we’re all in the same boat together when it comes to disliking Cardiff Smile

But, I must say perhaps we’re sort of missing the point here. We’re forgetting that ‘Gwent’ is no more in relation to the Dragons (something I keep forgetting). We are simply just the Dragons and do not represent an area. As PhillBB once tried to school me, it is impossible for a club to represent an area (or words to that effect). I disagree, but the fact they’ve taken Gwent out of the title suggests they are trying to open us up to all fans.

The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:59 pm

Off on a complete tangent now, but I’ve been scratching my head for a while as to why I’ve been been enjoying Robin Davey’s articles in the Argus lately when I used to disagree with a lot of what he wrote. I saw his name mentioned above so looked him up on Twitter and see he describes himself as the ex-head of rugby writing at the Argus. I5 seems I’ve been confusing him and Chris Kirwan for god knows how long! Hadn’t realised that Davey had retired (or been sacked?)! Doh!
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:14 pm

Gwent might not be in the name any more but there's still clearly an effort to include the clubs in the region in what the Dragons are doing. Hence the mascots and the replica shirts in the clubhouse (or whaever it's called these days).

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by RiscaGame on Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:54 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Gwent might not be in the name any more but there's still clearly an effort to include the clubs in the region in what the Dragons are doing. Hence the mascots and the replica shirts in the clubhouse (or whaever it's called these days).

There’s a massive effort to push out in to the region. They can’t have been more accomodating in that regard, with our A games not being played in Newport and the two games v the international teams being played elsewhere too. That’s this season alone. Also, Bernard was doing a lot of engaging, which could be considered detrimental to him not sorting out bigger issues like our lack of defence and attacking game plan.

In terms of attracting younger players from outside Newport, a lot of our youngsters are now. Dee (I think), Griffiths, Keddie, Dixon and Rosser to name a few. I think we are doing ok. Certainly there seems to be less players like your Condys and the like that aren’t progressing from our academy or whatever.

RiscaGame

Posts : 3109
Join date : 2016-01-25

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:01 am

Yeah there's a lot to rightly criticise Jackman about, but you have to admit he really did buy into it with going out and speaking at various clubs and so on.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 23829
Join date : 2011-02-02
Age : 41
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:06 am

The Oracle wrote:They are in South Wales you plum! Look on a map. West Wales is Aberystwyth, Aberaeron, Newquay, etc.

yeah, I'm the plum, but Scarlets slogan is "WEST IS BEST".

You might need to get onto them and let them know how much of a plum they all are. Laugh

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Brendan on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:10 am

At underage say u14/u16/u18 do the teams play in a Welsh league or region league.

In GAA at the top level each county is broken up into regions, at underage you win your region and then your represent your region in the county playoffs. They would also pick the best players to represent the region team for a few games aswell which for a person from a small village it's a great honour/status.

If all the underage teams in Gwent are playing each other to be Gwent champions I think they all would feel a part of the region and would want to play for the regional team of the Dragons.

Brendan

Posts : 2723
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:18 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:They are in South Wales you plum! Look on a map. West Wales is Aberystwyth, Aberaeron, Newquay, etc.

yeah, I'm the plum, but Scarlets slogan is "WEST IS BEST".

You might need to get onto them and let them know how much of a plum they all are. Laugh

Just because someone puts in on their seats doesn’t mean it’s correct picard

Seriously, are you unable to just look at a map? No one in their right mind would consider Llanelli to be west. West of Cardiff, maybe. But west Wales?! Please!
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:20 am

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:They are in South Wales you plum! Look on a map. West Wales is Aberystwyth, Aberaeron, Newquay, etc.

yeah, I'm the plum, but Scarlets slogan is "WEST IS BEST".

You might need to get onto them and let them know how much of a plum they all are. Laugh

Just because someone puts in on their seats doesn’t mean it’s correct picard

Seriously, are you unable to just look at a map? No one in their right mind would consider Llanelli to be west. West of Cardiff, maybe. But west Wales?! Please!

South West Wales they are. If you disagree, you better contact everyone at Llanelli RFC and tell them. OK

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:They are in South Wales you plum! Look on a map. West Wales is Aberystwyth, Aberaeron, Newquay, etc.

yeah, I'm the plum, but Scarlets slogan is "WEST IS BEST".

You might need to get onto them and let them know how much of a plum they all are. Laugh

Just because someone puts in on their seats doesn’t mean it’s correct picard

Seriously, are you unable to just look at a map? No one in their right mind would consider Llanelli to be west. West of Cardiff, maybe. But west Wales?! Please!

South West Wales they are. If you disagree, you better contact everyone at Llanelli RFC and tell them. OK

Towards west Wales would be a better description.

Why would I need to contact everyone?
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:25 am

Where would you base this west wales region, LD?
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 2649
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:37 am

The Oracle wrote:Where would you base this west wales region, LD?

Parc Y Scarlets, with the odd game at Swansea. But there could be an argument made for vice versa as the population is in Swansea.

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by RiscaGame on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:38 am

Brendan wrote:At underage say u14/u16/u18 do the teams play in a Welsh league or region league.

In GAA at the top level each county is broken up into regions, at underage you win your region and then your represent your region in the county playoffs. They would also pick the best players to represent the region team for a few games aswell which for a person from a small village it's a great honour/status.

If all the underage teams in Gwent are playing each other to be Gwent champions I think they all would feel a part of the region and would want to play for the regional team of the Dragons.

When I was growing up, there used to be districts (mine was Islwyn) and then county teams as clubs and schools. Don’t know if the districts thing happens now, nor county rugby so much now there’s no Gwent. The youth teams that would’ve been under the old Gwent umbrella play in a Dragons’ A and B league, I know that, as well as a few cups.

RiscaGame

Posts : 3109
Join date : 2016-01-25

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:39 am

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:They are in South Wales you plum! Look on a map. West Wales is Aberystwyth, Aberaeron, Newquay, etc.

yeah, I'm the plum, but Scarlets slogan is "WEST IS BEST".

You might need to get onto them and let them know how much of a plum they all are. Laugh

Just because someone puts in on their seats doesn’t mean it’s correct picard

Seriously, are you unable to just look at a map? No one in their right mind would consider Llanelli to be west. West of Cardiff, maybe. But west Wales?! Please!

South West Wales they are. If you disagree, you better contact everyone at Llanelli RFC and tell them. OK

Towards west Wales would be a better description.

Why would I need to contact everyone?

No. They are in South West Wales, just because they are not as far west as Pembroke Dock makes no difference. Is Hay-on-Wye any less in Wales because it's on the border of England ?

LordDowlais

Posts : 13872
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan - Page 18 Empty Re: Dragons Season Thread - 2018/19 - aka Year 2 of the 3 Year Plan

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 18 of 20 Previous  1 ... 10 ... 17, 18, 19, 20  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum