The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 07 Jul 2018, 4:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

A new thread to continue the tracking of where the multi-country Championship is heading.

With the TV deals done for Ireland, UK, Italy and South Africa, PRO14 quietly announced their deal for tapping other broadcast markets around the world with rights partner, RDA, who already have the Heineken Cup and English Premiership in their stable.  

Here’s extract from what the PRO14 press release said:  

Guinness PRO14 is the first rugby union championship to host clubs from the traditional rugby powers in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, with teams from South Africa competing against the top sides from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy.....

....RDA’s focus will be on growing revenues in core markets as well as increasing the Guinness PRO14’s global footprint. Current media agreements in host markets secured by PRO14 include eir sport in Ireland, Premier Sports in the UK and Super Sport in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Martin Anayi, CEO, Guinness PRO14 commented: “It’s an incredible time in the Guinness PRO14 with our expansion into South Africa, the success of our clubs in Europe and the confirmation of our new broadcast partners in Ireland and the UK. Every season the biggest names in world rugby take to the pitch in our Championship guided by some of the sharpest minds in the game providing imaginative, high-intensity match-ups which make for compulsive viewing.

“The Guinness PRO14 is one of the most talked about rugby properties in the world right now and it’s the perfect time to join forces with RDA who have a track record of success when it comes to sports media rights. With brands such as Premiership Rugby, Champions Cup and European Challenge Cup in their portfolio we can ensure that rugby fans will feel a part of the Guinness PRO14 action no matter where they are.”

...,Richard Dennis, CEO, RDA commented: “The Guinness PRO14 is an action-packed tournament. With a global-playing base of 300 players capped at full international level, and 100 top players from countries such as New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and the Pacific Islands, PRO14 will have a worldwide appeal to rugby fans. It also boasts some impressive stats, 1.3 million attendees last season and games averaging 5.9 tries, so it’s no surprise scoring has risen for the fifth year in a row. We’re very much excited to be working with the Guinness PRO14.”

RDA adds the Guinness PRO14 to a strong rugby portfolio covering the newly sponsored Champions Cup, European Challenge Cup, Premiership Rugby, Betfred Super League and the RFL International Test Series.

Anayi in another pre-season general interview said that PRO16 would be the ideal size for the Championship that would allow less regular season games to be played and avoid test windows. It’s likely the final two spots would go to two more SA teams - likely from Super Rugby before the start of its new Sanzaar TV contract in 2020.

Anayi also mentioned that they were bringing in a new programme to allow them employ professional referees directly on their elite refs panel.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon 23 Jul 2018, 6:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 8:59 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:

The reason Leinster are doing so well and contributing so many players to the national team is because they have a phenomenal academy and schools system. This may not continue for ever of course but currently that is the reason.

And money. Lots and lots and lots of money. To keep the good players there, and buy world cup winners like Brad Thorn on 3 month contracts to plug an injury gap.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:00 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:
It must just be a coincidence that the Test players all broadly accumulate on one team for each country - Leinster, Glasgow, Treviso and Llanelli
Just taking Leinster on that one. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say is true. If players were "accumulating" in Leinster you would have to expect that a lot of non Leinster players were transferring in from other provinces. The only top team player in Leinster who came in the last 6 years is Robbie Henshaw from Connacht. The only other one in the whole squad of 44 senior squad players is Sean Cronin who arrived in 2011 from Connacht also, having started in Munster. Apart from the 4 current NIQs and Michael Bent (Who all obviously came from outside the country) the rest all came through our academy.

The reason Leinster are doing so well and contributing so many players to the national team is because they have a phenomenal academy and schools system. This may not continue for ever of course but currently that is the reason.

You're confused.

Leinster are able to afford all of those players because the IRFU allows them to. That's is how they are 'accumulating' them. They may have come through the Leinster academy but they still have to be paid.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:25 am

Leinster are not accumulating players As St John states.
There have been a handful of players moving from Connacht to Leinster e.g. Henshaw and Cronin but I can think of no high profile players moving from Munster or Ulster in the last decade and in the case of Ulster the entire professional era (this may well be true of Munster as well). Even Connacht to Leinster is not the 'natural' progression it once was e.g Aki
Also inaccurate to talk of Ireland being broadly one team; Leisnter may dominate but half the first choice XV come from Munster or Ulster - Best, Henderson, POM, Stander, Murray, Earls and Stockdale

What we see is the Leinster academy developing players to a level no one else, outside NZ come close to.
Ulster have come up short in this regard but have now got their act together and in coming years will make a better contribution and that is good for Irish rugby.

Many of those players could move abroad, for more money, but do not do so out of choice.
As per the latest Ulster Annual report our wages bill is just over £6m, now Leinsters will be higher but no more than a top English side and way below the French.

Regarding accumulating players what has actually occurred this summer is players leaving Leisnter for other provinces.
Carbery to Munster and Murphy to Ulster

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:27 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Leinster are not accumulating players As St John states.

As per the latest Ulster Annual report our wages bill is just over £6m, now Leinsters will be higher but no more than a top English side and way below the French.


Two false statements.

Why do Irish rugby followers think that players who come through their team's academy will pay pro rugby for peanuts?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:34 am

Nope correct see my post in the Ulster thread

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:36 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Nope correct see my post in the Ulster thread
A post which has been at least once corrected.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:42 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Leinster are not accumulating players As St John states.
There have been a handful of players moving from Connacht to Leinster e.g. Henshaw and Cronin but I can think of no high profile players moving from Munster or Ulster in the last decade and in the case of Ulster the entire professional era (this may well be true of Munster as well). Even Connacht to Leinster is not the 'natural' progression it once was e.g Aki
Also inaccurate to talk of Ireland being broadly one team; Leisnter may dominate but half the first choice XV come from Munster or Ulster - Best, Henderson, POM, Stander, Murray, Earls and Stockdale

Isaac Boss is about the only one that moved from Ulster, that was 9 years ago

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:42 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
As per the latest Ulster Annual report our wages bill is just over £6m, now Leinsters will be higher but no more than a top English side and way below the French.


Way below the French? I'm not sure you've done the maths there.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:49 am

PhilBB wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:
It must just be a coincidence that the Test players all broadly accumulate on one team for each country - Leinster, Glasgow, Treviso and Llanelli
Just taking Leinster on that one. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say is true. If players were "accumulating" in Leinster you would have to expect that a lot of non Leinster players were transferring in from other provinces. The only top team player in Leinster who came in the last 6 years is Robbie Henshaw from Connacht. The only other one in the whole squad of 44 senior squad players is Sean Cronin who arrived in 2011 from Connacht also, having started in Munster. Apart from the 4 current NIQs and Michael Bent (Who all obviously came from outside the country) the rest all came through our academy.

The reason Leinster are doing so well and contributing so many players to the national team is because they have a phenomenal academy and schools system. This may not continue for ever of course but currently that is the reason.

You're confused.

Leinster are able to afford all of those players because the IRFU allows them to. That's is how they are 'accumulating' them. They may have come through the Leinster academy but they still have to be paid.
I'm not in the least bit confused. Of course they have to be paid for. The ones who give service at the top level get paid out of the IRFU budget and generally play about 16 games for Leinster per season. That's 8 players on top dollar Ranging between 250000 and 600000 Euros a season. There are another 10 or so that also make Ireland squads who would be on fairly decent money but also restricted in the number of minutes played for Leinster and also paid out of Leinster's budget. The rest are on far less than that. Academy contracts are 8000 per year and development contracts are between 40 and 80000. The 4 NIQs could earn more in France but choose to come to Leinster.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:51 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:
I'm not in the least bit confused. Of course they have to be paid for. The ones who give service at the top level get paid out of the IRFU budget and generally play about 16 games for Leinster per season. That's 8 players on top dollar Ranging between 250000 and 600000 Euros a season. There are another 10 or so that also make Ireland squads who would be on fairly decent money but also restricted in the number of minutes played for Leinster and also paid out of Leinster's budget. The rest are on far less than that. Academy contracts are 8000 per year and development contracts are between 40 and 80000. The 4 NIQs could earn more in France but choose to come to Leinster.

Now I'm confused, as you've just acknowledged exactly how Leinster are accumulating those players.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:51 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:

The reason Leinster are doing so well and contributing so many players to the national team is because they have a phenomenal academy and schools system. This may not continue for ever of course but currently that is the reason.

And money. Lots and lots and lots of money. To keep the good players there, and buy world cup winners like Brad Thorn on 3 month contracts to plug an injury gap.

Money is important of course. Money in the top schools delivers players to the academy in great shape for example. You could have picked a better example than Brad "Left over 6 years ago" Thorn. You could have said World cup finalist Scott Fardy.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:53 am

PhilBB wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:
I'm not in the least bit confused. Of course they have to be paid for. The ones who give service at the top level get paid out of the IRFU budget and generally play about 16 games for Leinster per season. That's 8 players on top dollar Ranging between 250000 and 600000 Euros a season. There are another 10 or so that also make Ireland squads who would be on fairly decent money but also restricted in the number of minutes played for Leinster and also paid out of Leinster's budget. The rest are on far less than that. Academy contracts are 8000 per year and development contracts are between 40 and 80000. The 4 NIQs could earn more in France but choose to come to Leinster.

Now I'm confused, as you've just acknowledged exactly how Leinster are accumulating those players.
So players solely motivated by money don't choose to make more of it in France? Yes that is confusing. I must be missing all those Leinster academy prospects rocking up to big French clubs for training this week. Laugh

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:55 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:

The reason Leinster are doing so well and contributing so many players to the national team is because they have a phenomenal academy and schools system. This may not continue for ever of course but currently that is the reason.

And money. Lots and lots and lots of money. To keep the good players there, and buy world cup winners like Brad Thorn on 3 month contracts to plug an injury gap.

Money is important of course. Money in the top schools delivers players to the academy in great shape for example. You could have picked a better example than Brad "Left over 6 years ago" Thorn. You could have said World cup finalist Scott Fardy.

Yes, there are a number to choose from given Leinster's huge financial resources. And good luck to them.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:55 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:
So players solely motivated by money don't choose to make more of it in France? Yes that is confusing. I must be missing all those Leinster academy prospects rocking up to big French clubs for training this week. Laugh

Now I'm really confused as you seem to be ignoring the JIFF regulations and the knowledge that the Academy players will get paid the market rate upon graduation.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 12:45 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:

The reason Leinster are doing so well and contributing so many players to the national team is because they have a phenomenal academy and schools system. This may not continue for ever of course but currently that is the reason.

And money. Lots and lots and lots of money. To keep the good players there, and buy world cup winners like Brad Thorn on 3 month contracts to plug an injury gap.

Money is important of course. Money in the top schools delivers players to the academy in great shape for example. You could have picked a better example than Brad "Left over 6 years ago" Thorn. You could have said World cup finalist Scott Fardy.

Yes, there are a number to choose from given Leinster's huge financial resources. And good luck to them.

Well not that many recently. There were 6 or so 10 years ago but in the last 6 years there have never been more than 4. While there is money there for sure we are constrained by the fact that we must have 4 or less and will also be blocked signing a player if the IRFU doesn't think it's a good plan for the national team.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 12:49 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Well not that many recently. There were 6 or so 10 years ago but in the last 6 years there have never been more than 4. While there is money there for sure we are constrained by the fact that we must have 4 or less and will also be blocked signing a player if the IRFU doesn't think it's a good plan for the national team.

That's Irish Union owned teams for you. Decided by an Aussie in an office in Dublin. If it works though.....

I imagine James Lowe can afford a few Guinesses on his day off.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 12:55 pm

PhilBB wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:
So players solely motivated by money don't choose to make more of it in France? Yes that is confusing. I must be missing all those Leinster academy prospects rocking up to big French clubs for training this week. Laugh

Now I'm really confused as you seem to be ignoring the JIFF regulations and the knowledge that the Academy players will get paid the market rate upon graduation.

Some will get well paid for sure. The exceptional ones like Tadhg Furlong who was on a development contract until he won a grand slam. He is now on over €400 grand. I'm sure Jordan Larmour is on a fair whack too like Garry Ringrose before him. Dan Leavy probably got a decent contract off the back of this season. Surely you would agree with that. Players proving themselves and getting rewarded financially.

The bulk of the academy graduates go on to development contracts of between 40 and 80 Grand. (try living in Dublin on less than that) Sure if they blow the doors off for the national team they get well rewarded and taken care of with rest periods etc. These are the up sides of having the provincial game in harmony with the national game. Sure there are down sides too but currently I personally see it as the best route for Leinster and Irish rugby.

If things change I personally have no objection to a different financial model either I just don't get why every country/team has to be pushed down one road. Whether that is a union road or an independent road. Each to their own.



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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 12:58 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:

Well not that many recently. There were 6 or so 10 years ago but in the last 6 years there have never been more than 4. While there is money there for sure we are constrained by the fact that we must have 4 or less and will also be blocked signing a player if the IRFU doesn't think it's a good plan for the national team.

That's Irish Union owned teams for you. Decided by an Aussie in an office in Dublin. If it works though.....

I imagine James Lowe can afford a few Guinesses on his day off.
Word was that he had better financial offers in France. Fardy definitely did. The Aussie in the office in Dublin is fairly unpopular with the bulk of provincial fans. They all see him as favouring another province over their own. That might mean he is doing a good job. Who knows?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:13 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:

Well not that many recently. There were 6 or so 10 years ago but in the last 6 years there have never been more than 4. While there is money there for sure we are constrained by the fact that we must have 4 or less and will also be blocked signing a player if the IRFU doesn't think it's a good plan for the national team.

That's Irish Union owned teams for you. Decided by an Aussie in an office in Dublin. If it works though.....

I imagine James Lowe can afford a few Guinesses on his day off.
Word was that he had better financial offers in France. Fardy definitely did. The Aussie in the office in Dublin is fairly unpopular with the bulk of provincial fans. They all see him as favouring another province over their own. That might mean he is doing a good job. Who knows?

And Leinster fans are bloody happy with him Whistle

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:15 pm

marty2086 wrote:

And Leinster fans are bloody happy with him  Whistle
They focking hate him with venom for "forcing" their players to Munster and Ulster. Joey Carbury in particular
God help us if Nordi Murphy scores a try in a knockout game v Leinster

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:17 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote: I just don't get why every country/team has to be pushed down one road. Whether that is a union road or an independent road. Each to their own.


In my opinion - the difficulty arises when there are different setups in a tournament that lasts an entire season. Some teams have different underpinning structures. Some teams have more of a commitment to serve the national team. Others don't. Some teams will be officiated by their colleagues. Others won't.

That doesn't mix, especially in a year long "league."

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:18 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:

Well not that many recently. There were 6 or so 10 years ago but in the last 6 years there have never been more than 4. While there is money there for sure we are constrained by the fact that we must have 4 or less and will also be blocked signing a player if the IRFU doesn't think it's a good plan for the national team.

That's Irish Union owned teams for you. Decided by an Aussie in an office in Dublin. If it works though.....

I imagine James Lowe can afford a few Guinesses on his day off.
Word was that he had better financial offers in France. Fardy definitely did. The Aussie in the office in Dublin is fairly unpopular with the bulk of provincial fans. They all see him as favouring another province over their own. That might mean he is doing a good job. Who knows?

It's all relative isn't it. The trade off between 5k a year and living in an English speaking country might be important to some.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:21 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote: I just don't get why every country/team has to be pushed down one road. Whether that is a union road or an independent road. Each to their own.


In my opinion - the difficulty arises when there are different setups in a tournament that lasts an entire season. Some teams have different underpinning structures. Some teams have more of a commitment to serve the national team. Others don't. Some teams will be officiated by their colleagues. Others won't.

That doesn't mix, especially in a year long "league."
I think that's a very fair point. However we just have to fudge it as none of the countries involved could have half as decent a league on their own.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:22 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote: I just don't get why every country/team has to be pushed down one road. Whether that is a union road or an independent road. Each to their own.


In my opinion - the difficulty arises when there are different setups in a tournament that lasts an entire season. Some teams have different underpinning structures. Some teams have more of a commitment to serve the national team. Others don't. Some teams will be officiated by their colleagues. Others won't.

That doesn't mix, especially in a year long "league."
I think that's a very fair point. However we just have to fudge it as none of the countries involved could have half as decent a league on their own.

Cheers St John. I guess it's the only game in town unfortunately.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:37 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

And Leinster fans are bloody happy with him  Whistle
They focking hate him with venom for "forcing" their players to Munster and Ulster. Joey Carbury in particular
God help us if Nordi Murphy scores a try in a knockout game v Leinster

Was it not Joe forcing that one upon Carbery but if he was being forced to move he'd be at Ulster not Munster but thankfully we avoided that one

Murphy moved to stake a claim for the RWC, nothing to do with Nucifora.

Just Leinster fans and their crazy woo is me attitude when they get everything handed to them Run

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

And Leinster fans are bloody happy with him  Whistle
They focking hate him with venom for "forcing" their players to Munster and Ulster. Joey Carbury in particular
God help us if Nordi Murphy scores a try in a knockout game v Leinster

Was it not Joe forcing that one upon Carbery but if he was being forced to move he'd be at Ulster not Munster but thankfully we avoided that one

Murphy moved to stake a claim for the RWC, nothing to do with Nucifora.

Just Leinster fans and their crazy woo is me attitude when they get everything handed to them Run

Joe and Lucifora are 2 persons in the one god. Nordi was sat down and given his options just like Joey. Leinster fans have a WOO is me attitude cause they win everything. If you mean woe is me, hardly. Some of them don't like developing players to be handed over to provincial rivals who couldn't be arsed to develop(ing) their own. Or were too inept to.

Ulster had everything handed to them too. But they did feck all with it.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by Sin é on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 1:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

And Leinster fans are bloody happy with him  Whistle
They focking hate him with venom for "forcing" their players to Munster and Ulster. Joey Carbury in particular
God help us if Nordi Murphy scores a try in a knockout game v Leinster

Was it not Joe forcing that one upon Carbery but if he was being forced to move he'd be at Ulster not Munster but thankfully we avoided that one

Murphy moved to stake a claim for the RWC, nothing to do with Nucifora.

Just Leinster fans and their crazy woo is me attitude when they get everything handed to them Run

Jordi has every right to celebrate as much as he likes if he scores a try that knocks out Leinster since they didn't offer him a new contract. Joey Carbery should keep his head down in the same circumstances though Very Happy Ian Dowling used get awful abuse from Leinster fans.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 2:16 pm

Jeremy Loughman(Leinster Academy)
Eoghan Clarke(Leinster Sub Academy)
Tadgh Beirne(Leinster Academy)
Conor Oliver(Leinster Sub Academy)
James Hart(Leinster Underage)
Ian Keatley(Leinster Academy)
Joey Carbery(Leinster Senior)
Andrew Conway(Leinster Senior)

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by Brendan on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 5:25 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:
What you are saying is that you feel the Union gives to much to Connacht not that Connacht are running a loss.  It could be argued that from afar but when you consider growth in rugby clubs, participation numbers and profile plus the numbers of internationals they now produce is it overpaying.  Clubs and members help fund the union.  Their unage is improving also
They get the same money as the other 3 provinces hence why their wage bill is less than the others so living within their means

a) you've no proof of any of that
b) are you sure Connacht get the same as the other three?

None of the provinces get the same amount.   Competition Income is divided according to performance.  Salary bills are different in each province.  Number of Cat A contract players is different.   Number of players on each province payroll is different.  Coaching team resources differ.  
Exactly. Brendan was writing complete falsehoods

No not falsehoods. Competition money is from competitions not IRFU. IRFU pays wages to players and the provinces can top them up if they wish (such as sexton). These payments are to the players not to the province so are between the player and IRFU, only any top ups would affect provinces expenditure.

So the provinces only get the same payment to help with expenditure. The IRFU helps in other ways as mentioned by Pot but they don't give extra money to help with expenditure (money the province must pay out itself)

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 7:26 pm

Brendan wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:
What you are saying is that you feel the Union gives to much to Connacht not that Connacht are running a loss.  It could be argued that from afar but when you consider growth in rugby clubs, participation numbers and profile plus the numbers of internationals they now produce is it overpaying.  Clubs and members help fund the union.  Their unage is improving also
They get the same money as the other 3 provinces hence why their wage bill is less than the others so living within their means

a) you've no proof of any of that
b) are you sure Connacht get the same as the other three?

None of the provinces get the same amount.   Competition Income is divided according to performance.  Salary bills are different in each province.  Number of Cat A contract players is different.   Number of players on each province payroll is different.  Coaching team resources differ.  
Exactly. Brendan was writing complete falsehoods

No not falsehoods.  Competition money is from competitions not IRFU.  IRFU pays wages to players and the provinces can top them up if they wish (such as sexton).  These payments are to the players not to the province so are between the player and IRFU, only any top ups would affect provinces expenditure.

So the provinces only get the same payment to help with expenditure.  The IRFU helps in other ways as mentioned by Pot but they don't give extra money to help with expenditure (money the province must pay out itself)

The IRFU contribute monies to each of the provincial branches budgets.  The IRFU receives all the central competition income from PRO14 and European tournaments. PRO14 gate monies go directly to province and EPCR knockout gates are split between IRFU and individual club.

Part of the IRFU annual contribution to the provincial budgets is paying a fixed amount to players on provincial contracts depending on their category. Category A are the ‘central contract’ players - 15 or 16 currently - and IRFU pays 100% of the agreed contract within fixed parameters . A club can choose to pay a Cat A player extra from their own resources if they have the money. .  Category B, C, D contracts get an IRFU contribution that range from €90k to  €20k approx with the province paying the balance of the salary.  Category E are foreign player (NIE/NIQ) contracts with the IRFU paying a fixed amount towards these and the rest paid by the province.  

Provinces can seek additional funding for different areas - eg a loan to Ulster for Ravenhill refurbishment which was repaid. Additional funding to Connacht to improve their S&C department including recruitment of specialist coach. An extra-ordinary payment to Munster to cover their losses a few years ago, a once-off additional payment of €1m split evenly across the four provinces to help compete on salaries.

An increase in Competition Income due to greater success in PRO14/EPCR e.g. last season goes back to provinces with an element proportionate to the teams who delivered it.  The new TV deal with EirSport and Premier Sports will add to that for this coming season.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 9:12 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:
Some will get well paid for sure. The exceptional ones like Tadhg Furlong who was on a development contract until he won a grand slam. He is now on over €400 grand. I'm sure Jordan Larmour is on a fair whack too like Garry Ringrose before him. Dan Leavy probably got a decent contract off the back of this season. Surely you would agree with that. Players proving themselves and getting rewarded financially.

The bulk of the academy graduates go on to development contracts of between 40 and 80 Grand. (try living in Dublin on less than that) Sure if they blow the doors off for the national team they get well rewarded and taken care of with rest periods etc. These are the up sides of having the provincial game in harmony with the national game. Sure there are down sides too but currently I personally see it as the best route for Leinster and Irish rugby.

If things change I personally have no objection to a different financial model either I just don't get why every country/team has to be pushed down one road. Whether that is a union road or an independent road. Each to their own.


Each to their own only works if your teams play in isolation. They don't. They play in cross border competitions so the ability of a union to skew those competitions makes them inherently imbalanced.

But, yes, I'm all for players getting paid to their value - just as I am for all of the rest of us getting the same in our jobs. And I salute the IRFU and Leinster for being able to pay so much.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 9:15 am

Brendan wrote:
No not falsehoods.  Competition money is from competitions not IRFU.  IRFU pays wages to players and the provinces can top them up if they wish (such as sexton).  These payments are to the players not to the province so are between the player and IRFU, only any top ups would affect provinces expenditure.

So the provinces only get the same payment to help with expenditure.  The IRFU helps in other ways as mentioned by Pot but they don't give extra money to help with expenditure (money the province must pay out itself)

Competition money goes to the IRFU, Brendan. They even mention it in their annual reports. The IRFU then decides how that is spent.

All player contracts are owned by the IRFU, too.

The IRFU has recently increased budgets, publicly stating so, just to further disprove you and to contradict your final paragraph.

So, yes, complete falsehoods.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 9:17 am

Pot Hale wrote:
The IRFU contribute monies to each of the provincial branches budgets.  The IRFU receives all the central competition income from PRO14 and European tournaments. PRO14 gate monies go directly to province and EPCR knockout gates are split between IRFU and individual club.

Part of the IRFU annual contribution to the provincial budgets is paying a fixed amount to players on provincial contracts depending on their category. Category A are the ‘central contract’ players - 15 or 16 currently - and IRFU pays 100% of the agreed contract within fixed parameters . A club can choose to pay a Cat A player extra from their own resources if they have the money. .  Category B, C, D contracts get an IRFU contribution that range from €90k to  €20k approx with the province paying the balance of the salary.  Category E are foreign player (NIE/NIQ) contracts with the IRFU paying a fixed amount towards these and the rest paid by the province.  

Provinces can seek additional funding for different areas - eg a loan to Ulster for Ravenhill refurbishment which was repaid. Additional funding to Connacht to improve their S&C department including recruitment of specialist coach. An extra-ordinary payment to Munster to cover their losses a few years ago, a once-off additional payment of €1m split evenly across the four provinces to help compete on salaries.

An increase in Competition Income due to greater success in PRO14/EPCR e.g. last season goes back to provinces with an element proportionate to the teams who delivered it.  The new TV deal with EirSport and Premier Sports will add to that for this coming season.



Thank God that you wrote the rest of that post. Now, hopefully, many of your fellow countrymen will get the hint.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 9:46 am

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The IRFU contribute monies to each of the provincial branches budgets.  The IRFU receives all the central competition income from PRO14 and European tournaments. PRO14 gate monies go directly to province and EPCR knockout gates are split between IRFU and individual club.

Part of the IRFU annual contribution to the provincial budgets is paying a fixed amount to players on provincial contracts depending on their category. Category A are the ‘central contract’ players - 15 or 16 currently - and IRFU pays 100% of the agreed contract within fixed parameters . A club can choose to pay a Cat A player extra from their own resources if they have the money. .  Category B, C, D contracts get an IRFU contribution that range from €90k to  €20k approx with the province paying the balance of the salary.  Category E are foreign player (NIE/NIQ) contracts with the IRFU paying a fixed amount towards these and the rest paid by the province.  

Provinces can seek additional funding for different areas - eg a loan to Ulster for Ravenhill refurbishment which was repaid. Additional funding to Connacht to improve their S&C department including recruitment of specialist coach. An extra-ordinary payment to Munster to cover their losses a few years ago, a once-off additional payment of €1m split evenly across the four provinces to help compete on salaries.

An increase in Competition Income due to greater success in PRO14/EPCR e.g. last season goes back to provinces with an element proportionate to the teams who delivered it.  The new TV deal with EirSport and Premier Sports will add to that for this coming season.



Thank God that you wrote the rest of that post. Now, hopefully, many of your fellow countrymen will get the hint.

Unlikely since I’ve written it at least a dozen times before, Phil. Scattering largesse to the multitudes is a thankless task, don’t you think? Smile.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 9:48 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Unlikely since I’ve written it at least a dozen times before, Phil.   Scattering largesse to the multitudes is a thankless task, don’t you think?  Smile.

You'll get calls for you to be banned next. And Martyn will try to convince everybody that he's ignoring you.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by Brendan on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 10:01 am

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:
No not falsehoods.  Competition money is from competitions not IRFU.  IRFU pays wages to players and the provinces can top them up if they wish (such as sexton).  These payments are to the players not to the province so are between the player and IRFU, only any top ups would affect provinces expenditure.

So the provinces only get the same payment to help with expenditure.  The IRFU helps in other ways as mentioned by Pot but they don't give extra money to help with expenditure (money the province must pay out itself)

Competition money goes to the IRFU, Brendan. They even mention it in their annual reports. The IRFU then decides how that is spent.

All player contracts are owned by the IRFU, too.

The IRFU has recently increased budgets, publicly stating so, just to further disprove you and to contradict your final paragraph.

So, yes, complete falsehoods.

Phill you will note that we were discussing Connacht and Edinburgh and their income and expenditure.

It was stated that Connacht couldn't be living within its means (income = expenditure)
I stated Connacht get the same payment as the other provinces from the Union.

Nowhere did I mention things like international wages/contracts etc. which have nothing to do with Connacht for IRFU contracts.  Again we were talking about Connacht finances so please only answer in relation to that and leave your axe to grind at home till it come up.

Again this is a Pro 14 thread

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 10:15 am

You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by PhilBB on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

Brendan wrote:
Phill you will note that we were discussing Connacht and Edinburgh and their income and expenditure.

It was stated that Connacht couldn't be living within its means (income = expenditure)
I stated Connacht get the same payment as the other provinces from the Union.

Nowhere did I mention things like international wages/contracts etc. which have nothing to do with Connacht for IRFU contracts.  Again we were talking about Connacht finances so please only answer in relation to that and leave your axe to grind at home till it come up.

Again this is a Pro 14 thread

And it was shown to you that Connacht don't get the same payment.

Connacht is just a branch, after all.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 1:44 pm

Think of the IRFU as the bank into which the four Provinces are investing (their time, their players, their cooperation with rest periods and player positional placements etc.... and they're also investing with their fans money as a Leinster fan is most likely also an Ireland fan.  So a seat at an International is a seat taken up by a Leinster fan, an Ulster fan, a Munster fan or a Connacht fan.)
...now the Provinces invest and they get their dividends back.... okay?

Where's the complicated deceptive mystery?

None.

God speed to the IRFU and another star at the end of the season hopefully. OK  This truly is a busted debate but by all means continue with the never ending recycling of a deflated ball.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 2:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 2:33 pm

marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

We don't know Marty, because unlike other teams, the 4 Irish provinces aren't transparent with their finances.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 2:46 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

We don't know Marty, because unlike other teams, the 4 Irish provinces aren't transparent with their finances.

Yeah, we saw how that worked in the English Premiership a few seasons back... Transparency. If you say it slowly enough, the slow actually think it's a real word Wink

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 2:54 pm

SecretFly wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

We don't know Marty, because unlike other teams, the 4 Irish provinces aren't transparent with their finances.

Yeah, we saw how that worked in the English Premiership a few seasons back... Transparency.  If you say it slowly enough, the slow actually think it's a real word Wink

Thank you for your contribution.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 2:58 pm

Don't mention it. I like to be helpful when people wilfully jump into quicksand and then cry for help.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 3:45 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

We don't know Marty, because unlike other teams, the 4 Irish provinces aren't transparent with their finances.

If you don't know then why did you claim millions?

Not like Ulster have issued their annual report or anything, so much or not being transparent Rolling Eyes

Not sure why they need to be transparent though Erm

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 4:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

We don't know Marty, because unlike other teams, the 4 Irish provinces aren't transparent with their finances.

If you don't know then why did you claim millions?

Not like Ulster have issued their annual report or anything, so much or not being transparent Rolling Eyes  

Not sure why they need to be transparent though Erm

Because the c£5m payroll isn't being funded by the bar at the Greyhound track Martyn.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 4:21 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

We don't know Marty, because unlike other teams, the 4 Irish provinces aren't transparent with their finances.

If you don't know then why did you claim millions?

Not like Ulster have issued their annual report or anything, so much or not being transparent Rolling Eyes  

Not sure why they need to be transparent though Erm

Because the c£5m payroll isn't being funded by the bar at the Greyhound track Martyn.

How would you know if they aren't being transparent?

Phil always types Martyn, funny that you are now too


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 4:23 pm

Who got sniff of the 5M payroll thing? Nothing gets published but it appears everything gets out?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 4:24 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:You can't discuss Connacht's finances without including the millions of Euros the IRFU pays the Connacht players!

How many millions?

Tumbleweed

We don't know Marty, because unlike other teams, the 4 Irish provinces aren't transparent with their finances.

Connacht salary bill is substantially lower than MLU. Aki, Dillane and Marmion are the only prominent players. No Cat A contracts.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 6 - Pay TV, More SA Makes Sweet 16

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