Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Noble-Surfer on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 2:40 pm

Wayne Pivac is to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach on a four year deal after the World Cup in 2019.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44757428

As a Wales fan, I think this is a very good appointment, and probably what most of us were hoping for. I expect (hope) he will also freshen up the back room staff- and would hope Stephen Jones is in with a good shout for backs coach... Though this would also be a big blow for the Scarlets...

As a Scarlets fan, I'm less pleased, as he has done a great job for us over the last few years- but I think he has helped to build a good culture there, which will hopefully continue & improve with the appointment of the next coach.

Noble-Surfer

Posts : 85
Join date : 2011-07-30
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 4:50 pm

TBH, I can see Stephen Jones taking over the coaching role at LLanelli whilst helping Pivac out with Wales.

LordDowlais

Posts : 12419
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by RiscaGame on Mon 09 Jul 2018, 7:58 pm

It would make sense to have Stephen Jones and Byron Hayward on his staff full time, as he knows he can trust them.

I’m very happy with this appointment and look forward to seeing what style of play Pivac adopts for Wales.

RiscaGame

Posts : 2044
Join date : 2016-01-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by SecretFly on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 1:59 pm

Let me the first to wish Gats well in any new endeavour.  God, Gats...you were a legend.  We hated you first...then we only maybe hated you a little... then we buried the hatchet, let bygones be bygones and hated you as much as ever before.....

.... but of course it was only a weird kinda love actually, wasn't it.  You hated us as much as we hated you and we loved you for it.  Hug

Here's to you going back to coach the Number 1 team in the world after the WC.  Good luck with that venture and I hope you get us another WC win in 2023 too Wink

SecretFly

Posts : 28248
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 2:22 pm

Please tell me Dai Young ruled himself out of contention, otherwise this is a slight and a half:

"We would like to have had more choice [of Welsh coaches]," admitted Phillips.

"First and foremost we had to pick the best coach but in an ideal world that person would be Welsh as well, but there was not anyone we felt was ready to step into those shoes."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44769234

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 22780
Join date : 2011-02-01
Age : 39
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 2:28 pm

If there is a shortage in quality Welsh coaches then surely that it lies at the feet of the WRU and this shows they are failing with their responsibilities in this area ?

LordDowlais

Posts : 12419
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 3:01 pm

My point is that Dai Young's Welsh, and unless he ruled himself out, it's a slap in the face to say no Welsh coaches were up to standard.

I assume he did rule himself out, but there's no mention of him in either of the BBC articles, which makes me wonder.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 22780
Join date : 2011-02-01
Age : 39
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by hugehandoff on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 3:45 pm

I am sure Dai must have ruled himself out. There appears to be lots of cash at Wasps so why leave that role? He has also not delivered at the highest end of the club game to date and for me has to land a big title to cement his credentials. Some surprising decisions lately, including burning the budget on 2 new kiwis who I don't think will add much more then the top English players they are replacing.

hugehandoff

Posts : 759
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 4:02 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:My point is that Dai Young's Welsh, and unless he ruled himself out, it's a slap in the face to say no Welsh coaches were up to standard.

I assume he did rule himself out, but there's no mention of him in either of the BBC articles, which makes me wonder.

But by saying what they have, they are more or less admitting that they are failing in producing coaches needed for the standards of international rugby. In fact, they are failing in producing coaches good enough for regional rugby.

None of the regions have Welsh head coaches, what is that telling us ?

LordDowlais

Posts : 12419
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 4:26 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Please tell me Dai Young ruled himself out of contention, otherwise this is a slight and a half:

"We would like to have had more choice [of Welsh coaches]," admitted Phillips.

"First and foremost we had to pick the best coach but in an ideal world that person would be Welsh as well, but there was not anyone we felt was ready to step into those shoes."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44769234


Pretty sure Dai Young ruled himself out a long time ago. Remember reading that he was happy at Wasps and had unfinished business, wasn't the right time to think about leaving, etc. Will try to find a link.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1198
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 4:30 pm

Here you go. From December 2017. I apologise unreservedly for the source. As an academic, a little part of me is dying inside for providing a link to this rag!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5216361/Wasps-coach-Dai-Young-snubs-Wales.html

And this rag!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/candidate-replace-warren-gatland-wales-14087216

avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1198
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 5:14 pm

Thanks. If it makes you feel any better, I haven't clicked on either of them! OK

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 22780
Join date : 2011-02-01
Age : 39
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 7:23 pm

Laugh Cheers, LP. Ale
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1198
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by SecretFly on Tue 10 Jul 2018, 11:04 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Please tell me Dai Young ruled himself out of contention, otherwise this is a slight and a half:

"We would like to have had more choice [of Welsh coaches]," admitted Phillips.

"First and foremost we had to pick the best coach but in an ideal world that person would be Welsh as well, but there was not anyone we felt was ready to step into those shoes."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44769234


Pretty sure Dai Young ruled himself out a long time ago.  Remember reading that he was happy at Wasps and had unfinished business, wasn't the right time to think about leaving, etc.  Will try to find a link.

Or in other words.... his asking price was more than the WRU were willing to pay him. Coaches always have two statements ready in their cabinets. One thanks their club for the opportunity they gave but the lure of International was just too great.... and the other statement is....well, Dai used that one. Both statements usually involve the sniff of money.

SecretFly

Posts : 28248
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 5:01 am

Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 5:12 am

Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?

I wish they would.

mikey_dragon

Posts : 7228
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 5:17 am

I thought it was a little too soon to have the successor lined up, or at least be announcing it. I think it's a good appointment although on the other hand I also believe the WRU could have done one of these 'world class' searches and picked up another kiwi who has a successful track record in super rugby. Pivac probably is an ideal choice however: he knows a lot of relevant info from his coaching time spent in Wales, he's also worked with a number of players who will still be around post 2019 as well as brought on a host of new young players. I think he can do well.

Pivac can bring Jones with him but I'd rather he didn't Byron Hayward, who will probably sink Scarlets if he stays as the successor - as will Robin McBryde.

mikey_dragon

Posts : 7228
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 7:45 am

If they had gone for a true Welsh coach with bags of relevant experience it wouldve been Rob Howley. Be careful what you wish for.

Gooseberry

Posts : 3715
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by The Oracle on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 8:30 am

Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? Doesn't make sense to deliberately restrict your options like that. You wouldn't do it in business, where the best chief exec might be anywhere around the world, so why do it in sport coaching? It's like Ben Ryan coaching Fiji 7s - they could have gone for a Fijian. Hell, there's surely plenty with 7s experience knocking around. But instead went for an Englishman. Why? Similarly, the Russians seem to like Welsh coaches. Why not just install a Russian coach?

Take it as a compliment that your coaches are that good that they can work anywhere in the world and attract a good salary. Or, pay them a decent salary and they won't have to travel half way around the world to make a decent living. That's probably the crux of it.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1198
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 8:43 am

SecretFly wrote:
Or in other words.... his asking price was more than the WRU were willing to pay him.  

That would be most unlikely, judging by the salary Gatland has.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 8:44 am

Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?

Yes.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 9:14 am

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? .

Perhaps because theyre coaching in Wales? Was referring to the fact that so far Hansen, Henry, Gatland and now Pivac have spent time in Wales coaching. Their techniques should be being shared with the up and coming coaches in Wales so they eventually appoint their own.

Agree its not limited to Wales, Schmidt, Cotter, Jones should all be available as coaching mentors as part of their positions.

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:11 am

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? .

Perhaps because theyre coaching in Wales? Was referring to the fact that so far Hansen, Henry, Gatland and now Pivac have spent time in Wales coaching. Their techniques should be being shared with the up and coming coaches in Wales so they eventually appoint their own.

Agree its not limited to Wales, Schmidt, Cotter, Jones should all be available as coaching mentors as part of their positions.

Schmidt does mentor Irish coaches. Guys like OGara have been invited on summer tours to get a flavour of whats involved.

Collapse2005

Posts : 1377
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by The Oracle on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:20 am

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? .

Perhaps because theyre coaching in Wales? Was referring to the fact that so far Hansen, Henry, Gatland and now Pivac have spent time in Wales coaching. Their techniques should be being shared with the up and coming coaches in Wales so they eventually appoint their own.

Agree its not limited to Wales, Schmidt, Cotter, Jones should all be available as coaching mentors as part of their positions.

NZ produce very good coaches.  The world invented airplanes.  People can now travel large distances easily for work!  I know it can be frustrating that your coaches are going overseas (even though I'm sure I've seen you write that you wouldn't want any of the NH based NZ coaches anyway) but I guess you're a victim of your own success.  People move for work opportunities.  You're producing a glut of coaches and they'd be on the dole (or coaching way below their level) if they didn't move for work.  It happens in Wales too, just at a lower level - our coaches are/have been recently in charge in Canada, Romania, Russia, Japan, etc.  I don't see a big backlash from those countries about getting a local in.

And your line 'appoint their own'.  That sounds a little xenophobic!  The world is much more global these days (excuse the pun, or tautology, or whatever it is!).  Why do you have to have a 'native' in a certain job?  Why is it a must?  It seems a little old fashioned to me, like something from the 60s.


Last edited by The Oracle on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1198
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 12:52 pm

no approach has been made for Stephen Jones, perhaps he is staying with Llanelli.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44777163

LordDowlais

Posts : 12419
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by The Oracle on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 1:26 pm

It’s a year until Pivac actually take the reins officially. I expect he’ll be given that time to decide on his wish list in terms of coaches, etc. No need to rush to announce his assistants yet.

Jones might join Wales, he might not. Too early to say IMO.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1198
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 6:28 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? .

Perhaps because theyre coaching in Wales? Was referring to the fact that so far Hansen, Henry, Gatland and now Pivac have spent time in Wales coaching. Their techniques should be being shared with the up and coming coaches in Wales so they eventually appoint their own.

Agree its not limited to Wales, Schmidt, Cotter, Jones should all be available as coaching mentors as part of their positions.

NZ produce very good coaches.  The world invented airplanes.  People can now travel large distances easily for work!  I know it can be frustrating that your coaches are going overseas (even though I'm sure I've seen you write that you wouldn't want any of the NH based NZ coaches anyway) but I guess you're a victim of your own success.  People move for work opportunities.  You're producing a glut of coaches and they'd be on the dole (or coaching way below their level) if they didn't move for work.  It happens in Wales too, just at a lower level - our coaches are/have been recently in charge in Canada, Romania, Russia, Japan, etc.  I don't see a big backlash from those countries about getting a local in.

And your line 'appoint their own'.  That sounds a little xenophobic!  The world is much more global these days (excuse the pun, or tautology, or whatever it is!).  Why do you have to have a 'native' in a certain job?  Why is it a must?  It seems a little old fashioned to me, like something from the 60s.

Geez, think youre reading a little too much into my comments, which were quite simple. I dont think even today its too much for a national side to prefer to appoint one of their own as its national coach. Anyway, carry on getting carried away about nothing...fill yer boots thumbsup

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 6:42 pm

The Oracle wrote:It’s a year until Pivac actually take the reins officially. I expect he’ll be given that time to decide on his wish list in terms of coaches, etc. No need to rush to announce his assistants yet.

Jones might join Wales, he might not. Too early to say IMO.

Yes our experience seems to be that you need to pick your assistants wisely. Our better coaches tend not to have been great players as well.

Henry, Hansen, Schmidt, Cotter, Gatland, Rennie, Scott Robertson, and if he does well, Pivac. They do tend to pick good assistants though, Henry and Hansen with Wayne Smith and Foster, Fox etc. Schmidt with Farrell.

Where players like Kirwan and Umaga who dont seem to have assistants of note, arent doing so well. Gats was an AB but sat behind Fitzy his entire playing career. Be interesting how Brad Thorn goes with the Queensland reds, he seems to be ruling with an iron fist there but is also bucking that trend.

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 6:48 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? .

Perhaps because theyre coaching in Wales? Was referring to the fact that so far Hansen, Henry, Gatland and now Pivac have spent time in Wales coaching. Their techniques should be being shared with the up and coming coaches in Wales so they eventually appoint their own.

Agree its not limited to Wales, Schmidt, Cotter, Jones should all be available as coaching mentors as part of their positions.

Schmidt does mentor Irish coaches. Guys like OGara have been invited on summer tours to get a flavour of whats involved.

OGara looks to be going well with the Crusaders, been reading some good things from there, and for me they may as well give the Super rugby trophy to them, with Read back in what looks to be very good form, all home matches if they keep winning, and few injuries, looks like a slam dunk...again...

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by The Oracle on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 9:39 pm

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? .

Perhaps because theyre coaching in Wales? Was referring to the fact that so far Hansen, Henry, Gatland and now Pivac have spent time in Wales coaching. Their techniques should be being shared with the up and coming coaches in Wales so they eventually appoint their own.

Agree its not limited to Wales, Schmidt, Cotter, Jones should all be available as coaching mentors as part of their positions.

NZ produce very good coaches.  The world invented airplanes.  People can now travel large distances easily for work!  I know it can be frustrating that your coaches are going overseas (even though I'm sure I've seen you write that you wouldn't want any of the NH based NZ coaches anyway) but I guess you're a victim of your own success.  People move for work opportunities.  You're producing a glut of coaches and they'd be on the dole (or coaching way below their level) if they didn't move for work.  It happens in Wales too, just at a lower level - our coaches are/have been recently in charge in Canada, Romania, Russia, Japan, etc.  I don't see a big backlash from those countries about getting a local in.

And your line 'appoint their own'.  That sounds a little xenophobic!  The world is much more global these days (excuse the pun, or tautology, or whatever it is!).  Why do you have to have a 'native' in a certain job?  Why is it a must?  It seems a little old fashioned to me, like something from the 60s.

Geez, think youre reading a little too much into my comments, which were quite simple. I dont think even today its too much for a national side to prefer to appoint one of their own as its national coach. Anyway, carry on getting carried away about nothing...fill yer boots thumbsup


Sorry Taylorman, but you always seem to be complaining about the NH poaching your players and coaches. Sounded like you were doing the same again with a little dig about wales looking south and not producing their own. If I was wide of the mark then I apologise. But was I really wide of the mark???
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1198
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:03 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Interesting, another Auckland coach coaching Wales...do these guys mentor young coaches in Wales?


Why limit the search to Welshmen only? .

Perhaps because theyre coaching in Wales? Was referring to the fact that so far Hansen, Henry, Gatland and now Pivac have spent time in Wales coaching. Their techniques should be being shared with the up and coming coaches in Wales so they eventually appoint their own.

Agree its not limited to Wales, Schmidt, Cotter, Jones should all be available as coaching mentors as part of their positions.

NZ produce very good coaches.  The world invented airplanes.  People can now travel large distances easily for work!  I know it can be frustrating that your coaches are going overseas (even though I'm sure I've seen you write that you wouldn't want any of the NH based NZ coaches anyway) but I guess you're a victim of your own success.  People move for work opportunities.  You're producing a glut of coaches and they'd be on the dole (or coaching way below their level) if they didn't move for work.  It happens in Wales too, just at a lower level - our coaches are/have been recently in charge in Canada, Romania, Russia, Japan, etc.  I don't see a big backlash from those countries about getting a local in.

And your line 'appoint their own'.  That sounds a little xenophobic!  The world is much more global these days (excuse the pun, or tautology, or whatever it is!).  Why do you have to have a 'native' in a certain job?  Why is it a must?  It seems a little old fashioned to me, like something from the 60s.

Geez, think youre reading a little too much into my comments, which were quite simple. I dont think even today its too much for a national side to prefer to appoint one of their own as its national coach. Anyway, carry on getting carried away about nothing...fill yer boots thumbsup


Sorry Taylorman, but you always seem to be complaining about the NH poaching your players and coaches. Sounded like you were doing the same again with a little dig about wales looking south and not producing their own. If I was wide of the mark then I apologise. But was I really wide of the mark???

Leave you to answer that... youre the Oracle. Whistle

Im just all for rugby nations to be self sustaining thats all. To me its simple. Wales mist have spent millions of their own money on overseas coaches in the pro era. Unless Wales think differently the ideal would be Welsh coaches coaching mostly Welsh players, so in hiring overseas coaches part of the deal should be that budding professional coaches get an insight into why Wales need to hire abroad.

They should have access to the coach as that benefits all. The incoming coach should have access to the teams he is selecting from, be involved in the way players are trained, kept fit, the teams style of play and objectives and in return the coaches and non capped players get buy in to what is required to play and coach at the national level.

That must provide benefits to all surely and the single thing that all fans, players and coaches can surely agree on is to have a better Welsh side.

That is where your money is best spent, not in winning the 6N.

If our coaches are not doing that then someones getting a raw deal.

And if there are barriers to that approach then youd need to question why they are there.

The WRU should also have a rule of not appointing consecutive overseas coaches, or that every third must be Welsh. That would mean the focus on supporting local coaching will increase.

Our coaches will be fine. They can go elsewhere but Id like to think the top tier at least can either be self sustaining or at least have goals of that in the near future.

And Id like to think that at its heart rugby is still a game of sharing, community rather than selling out to the highest bidder. Thats where my NH rants come from.. the fact that money is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Easier to buy than grow, the DYI man versus the pay someone else to do the dirty work.

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 1:43 am

Taylorman, not sure where you've been but these Welsh coaches simply aren't there. Cardiff tried to bring on a few welsh coaches and it backfired... It took a decent Welsh coach a long time to undo all that and he's since moved on to pastures new (Scotland) - Wilson is one for the future though. There's also Dai Young who has a lot of relevant experience but he seems to take 10 years to do anything of note. Then there's Howley, a Welsh coach who Gatland has been 'bringing on' without success. I mean Gats even tried improving him by taking him on multiple Lions tours to improve him and that didn't work either, in fact... Howley actually lost more credibility! These Welsh coaches just aren't there right now and might not be for another decade. I think we need a good kiwi coach at every team in Wales for our teams and hopefully coaches to improve, that's the reality of the situation.

mikey_dragon

Posts : 7228
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:09 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Taylorman, not sure where you've been but these Welsh coaches simply aren't there. Cardiff tried to bring on a few welsh coaches and it backfired... It took a decent Welsh coach a long time to undo all that and he's since moved on to pastures new (Scotland) - Wilson is one for the future though. There's also Dai Young who has a lot of relevant experience but he seems to take 10 years to do anything of note. Then there's Howley, a Welsh coach who Gatland has been 'bringing on' without success. I mean Gats even tried improving him by taking him on multiple Lions tours to improve him and that didn't work either, in fact... Howley actually lost more credibility! These Welsh coaches just aren't there right now and might not be for another decade. I think we need a good kiwi coach at every team in Wales for our teams and hopefully coaches to improve, that's the reality of the situation.

All the more reason to bleed the ones you're paying the big bucks to I guess, and if Gatland's been trying guess its a hopeless venture. Its as though there's a secret formula, a Colonels recipe that only some have access to. I can understand churning players out of a well run system but with coaching there's a much more tenuous link to a teams performance. Its more about communication, organisation, planning, having a vision than skills, speed, strength.

But fair enough, I wish Pivac well when he starts, and to Gats with whatever he decides to do.

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Scarpia on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 8:18 am

Gooseberry wrote:If they had gone for a true Welsh coach with bags of relevant experience it wouldve been Rob Howley. Be careful what you wish for.

One of the best things about Pivac's appointment is, hopefully, the disappearance of adenoidal, misery-faced Stan Laurel look-alike Howley from Welsh rugby. Go to a club/region, Howley, and get some real experience.

Scarpia

Posts : 257
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 9:49 am

Taylorman wrote:Its as though there's a secret formula, a Colonels recipe that only some have access to.
I suspect most countries would prefer to have home-grown coaches but not at the expense of success. Northern hemisphere coaches are common on the sevens circuit, and it's notable that New Zealand selected a Scotsman to lead them, after a period of relative failure in the shorter code.

New Zealand hasn't invested as much time or resources into sevens as Fiji or South Africa, so the sevens coaching ranks are thinner than in 15s.

Meanwhile, the 15s coaching ranks are full in New Zealand but there are only a handful of top jobs. Not surprising the incentives are strong to leave. Also, the NZRU has developed a habit of selecting head coaches who have first gone overseas to work (e.g Mitchell, Henry, Hansen), so ambitious coaches are hardly being discouraged in the same way as players.


Rugby Fan

Posts : 4960
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:13 am

Wales will not have decent coaches until the current crop of professional players retire and decide to take up coaching, lets not forget, we only became properly pro in Wales when the regions were set-up, and they were filled with players from the old clubs, where professionalism was a joke.

What we have seen here in Wales, is players from a ropy pro background becoming coaches, who, themselves were coached by amateurs. The players we have today, AWJ, Warburton, Biggar, until most of these senior players hang up their boots and become coaches, only then will we start seeing a fully professional outfit.

We need to weed out all the amateurism in the game, we need professional coaches for professional players. Until this happens, then there will not be any decent coaches in Wales. We are still playing catch up in this regard.

Coaches like Howley & Young were brought up in a time where we did not have a clue about being pro. When Graham Henry came up here he could not believe the approach we took to the game, even Hansen was bewildered, and we have heard Gatland saying as much as well, the players we have today, are all being taken under the wing of foreign coaches at their regions, coaches who know all about professionalism.

We will not see any decent Welsh head coaches until this generation of players decide to become coaches, they will then take on board what they have been coached and pass it on to the players they are coaching, not what they have read, or been told, but what they have witnessed first hand.

This is my view on it anyway.

LordDowlais

Posts : 12419
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Taylorman on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 8:31 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Its as though there's a secret formula, a Colonels recipe that only some have access to.
I suspect most countries would prefer to have home-grown coaches but not at the expense of success. Northern hemisphere coaches are common on the sevens circuit, and it's notable that New Zealand selected a Scotsman to lead them, after a period of relative failure in the shorter code.

New Zealand hasn't invested as much time or resources into sevens as Fiji or South Africa, so the sevens coaching ranks are thinner than in 15s.

Meanwhile,  the 15s coaching ranks are full in New Zealand but there are only a handful of top jobs. Not surprising the incentives are strong to leave. Also, the NZRU has developed a habit of selecting head coaches who have first gone overseas to work (e.g Mitchell, Henry, Hansen), so ambitious coaches are hardly being discouraged in the same way as players.


Yes there are ample opportunities overseas for coaches as its not only NH and Japan test and a seemingly increasing number of professional club sides but many smaller countries as well taking them in.

Agree Sevens really has lost its pull here and unlike the Cullen, Lomu days its no longer a feeder to 15s as it was. Its a bit odd weve let a section of the game kind of wander along on its own. These days the side is limited to mitre 10 level players as the series rules out Super rugby and test involvement.

Most kiwis dont even watch the overseas events now I would think. So having an overseas coach seems to support our apathy in that area. Mainstream is leaving it to ‘others’ it seems.

Be interesting what Gats does on return. I can see Hansen staying on longer so Super rugby might be a bit of fun for him, just to get an idea of the differences in the game here since he left.

Taylorman

Posts : 9415
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by PhilBB on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 8:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:Wales will not have decent coaches until the current crop of professional players retire and decide to take up coaching, lets not forget, we only became properly pro in Wales when the regions were set-up, and they were filled with players from the old clubs, where professionalism was a joke.

What we have seen here in Wales, is players from a ropy pro background becoming coaches, who, themselves were coached by amateurs. The players we have today, AWJ, Warburton, Biggar, until most of these senior players hang up their boots and become coaches, only then will we start seeing a fully professional outfit.

We need to weed out all the amateurism in the game, we need professional coaches for professional players. Until this happens, then there will not be any decent coaches in Wales. We are still playing catch up in this regard.

Coaches like Howley & Young were brought up in a time where we did not have a clue about being pro. When Graham Henry came up here he could not believe the approach we took to the game, even Hansen was bewildered, and we have heard Gatland saying as much as well, the players we have today, are all being taken under the wing of foreign coaches at their regions, coaches who know all about professionalism.

We will not see any decent Welsh head coaches until this generation of players decide to become coaches, they will then take on board what they have been coached and pass it on to the players they are coaching, not what they have read, or been told, but what they have witnessed first hand.

This is my view on it anyway.

I was with you all the way until you mentioned Young. And why I disagree with you on him is because of the time he spent in League.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by PhilBB on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 8:57 am

Taylorman wrote:
Im just all for rugby nations to be self sustaining thats all.

Business leaders move around globally to take jobs. Why? To stop the internal market being insular and, therefore, immune to fresh ideas and thinking.

Look at New Zealand. Look at their most successful coaching set ups and you'll see the top guys all have experience of working overseas.

If New Zealand was "self sustaining", they wouldn't be getting that overseas experience, everything would become insular and that's when things fail.

We live in a shrinking world so let's celebrate the opportunities to test our skills in new environments and in new cultures, all with new challenges. Let's not be insular.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by ebop on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 9:48 am

Business leaders move around the globe for money

Same with NZ coaches

Don’t kid yourself

And why should a union that can afford to splurge on a fancy kiwi coach be given a leg up more than a poorer union that doesn’t have the cash but has the talent? Think Pacific Islands. These guys have all the natural talent in the world but can’t get a coach worth salt to take them to a level that matches that talent.

This trend of ‘buying’ the top kiwi coach you can skews the system. It’s not good for the world game but is a desperate attempt by traditional rugby playing countries to stop falling behind.
avatar
ebop

Posts : 4323
Join date : 2011-10-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by SecretFly on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:03 am

Ebop got a cold hard fact there.  It really isn't about cross culture fertilisation of united colours of Benetton with the sweet multicultural music playing in the background.

It is about money............................. and Spying.  Industrial espionage happens so why not admit that sporting espionage happens too.  Coaches go on their foreign excursions and remember all the good systemic secrets of that Nation when they return to their native lands.  It's always nice to have insider info on the enemy.

But ebop is right, money pushes coaches here and players there.  It's used too to steal talent and knowledge, let's be honest about that..... thus why clubs without cash are always moaning about clubs with cash.

Me?  I'd prefer to see an EXOTIC Brazil arrive at the Football WC, not the functional and crap one (heavily influenced by pragmatic European "values") that did turn up.  This Global melting pot of culture becomes something grey very quickly and personally speaking, I wish there was a planet passing that might let some truly unique and insular peoples and parts of the world escape now before being consumed by this ever increasing Samey world society.

SecretFly

Posts : 28248
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by ebop on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:08 am

....and spying Laugh

Very good ScretFly

O’Gara is on a spy mission as we speak. He may look like a 20 yo kid but this guy is dangerous. I hope he survives the MIB treatment when he departs NZ.
avatar
ebop

Posts : 4323
Join date : 2011-10-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by SecretFly on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:31 am

Well it's true.... he is. Wink

But what a badge of honour for him, one of the rare spies actually let in to the Mother Ship to find out where the blueprints of it's annihilation are stored!

They're in the small room past the Planet Blaster battery room, Ronan!!!!! Set your phaser to stun.

SecretFly

Posts : 28248
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by PhilBB on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:36 am

ebop wrote:Business leaders move around the globe for money

Same with NZ coaches

Don’t kid yourself

And why should a union that can afford to splurge on a fancy kiwi coach be given a leg up more than a poorer union that doesn’t have the cash but has the talent? Think Pacific Islands. These guys have all the natural talent in the world but can’t get a coach worth salt to take them to a level that matches that talent.

This trend of ‘buying’ the top kiwi coach you can skews the system. It’s not good for the world game but is a desperate attempt by traditional rugby playing countries to stop falling behind.

Eh? That makes no sense. This is a professional sport so the "system" has finance inbuilt into it. The rich win. That IS the system.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by SecretFly on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:44 am

Croatia doesn't have as much money as England surely?

New Zealand have had decades at the top and they only farm sheep..... Whistle

Are you sure your theory works, Phil.

But I agree...that IS the system that the professionals chase after - spend enough money, kill off the opposition in the boardroom first and then obliterate them on the field. That's the desire...the desire to kill off New Zealand rugby using financial clout.

Maybe it Will work one day. It'll be a sad day though.

SecretFly

Posts : 28248
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by PhilBB on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:59 am

SecretFly wrote:Croatia doesn't have as much money as England surely?

New Zealand have had decades at the top and they only farm sheep..... Whistle

Are you sure your theory works, Phil.

But I agree...that IS the system that the professionals chase after - spend enough money, kill off the opposition in the boardroom first and then obliterate them on the field.  That's the desire...the desire to kill off New Zealand rugby using financial clout.

Maybe it Will work one day.  It'll be a sad day though.

I think that you write this stuff with the aim of being funny (although I'm not confident in that thought) but that was a beautifully ironic tweet when you consider NZ rugby is underpinned by SA and Lions money.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:02 am

PhilBB wrote:I was with you all the way until you mentioned Young. And why I disagree with you on him is because of the time he spent in League.

I forgot to consider that. Perhaps I could have replaced him with somebody like Mark Taylor, or Byron Hayward.

LordDowlais

Posts : 12419
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by SecretFly on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:12 am

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Croatia doesn't have as much money as England surely?

New Zealand have had decades at the top and they only farm sheep..... Whistle

Are you sure your theory works, Phil.

But I agree...that IS the system that the professionals chase after - spend enough money, kill off the opposition in the boardroom first and then obliterate them on the field.  That's the desire...the desire to kill off New Zealand rugby using financial clout.

Maybe it Will work one day.  It'll be a sad day though.

I think that you write this stuff with the aim of being funny (although I'm not confident in that thought) but that was a beautifully ironic tweet when you consider NZ rugby is underpinned by SA and Lions money.

You're obsessed with telling me I ain't a comedian. Is that your very best attempt at ridicule, Phil? It hasn't made me blush in embarrassment yet, so I'd suggest to you it's the wrong channel.
Relax...it's summer and we've been discussing a little the weird ways of rugby and the cross fertilisation of talent. Oh and I stand by everything I said, as usual including the bit that the rich don't always win so it can't even be used as a maxim.

SecretFly

Posts : 28248
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by ebop on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:30 am

Yes, calm down Phil, there’s no need to get salty. So Wales picked yet another kiwi coach. Good on them. You’ll be glad to hear that an ‘unnamed’ NZ person that has apparently worked with Henry, Hansen and Pivac has apparently said that Pivac was apparently the best out of the lot. So you’re onto a winner. Although according to Welsh people, Henry and Hansen weren’t apparently very good so it’s hard to say how good Pivac really is.
avatar
ebop

Posts : 4323
Join date : 2011-10-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by PhilBB on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:56 am

ebop wrote:Yes, calm down Phil, there’s no need to get salty. So Wales picked yet another kiwi coach. Good on them. You’ll be glad to hear that an ‘unnamed’ NZ person that has apparently worked with Henry, Hansen and Pivac has apparently said that Pivac was apparently the best out of the lot. So you’re onto a winner. Although according to Welsh people, Henry and Hansen weren’t apparently very good so it’s hard to say how good Pivac really is.

"According to Welsh people". Yes, we all have only one voice.

FFS.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Wayne Pivac to succeed Warren Gatland as Wales coach

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum