Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

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Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Brendan on Fri 03 Aug 2018, 1:38 pm

With the Super final on this weekend and all the talk of how the Crusaders are going to win at home.   Add in all the hype last year about how unfair it was the Lions got a home Final.

So what are people's views on having a predetermined venue.  They do it in Soccer in the Champions league were a team if they get there could play in their own stadium (which I think happened).

Positives
We have outgrown the 18k Stadiums for finals so few home grounds can cover crowd
Neutral venue so more equal chance.
Everyone knows the venue of the final is so can arrange flights/accomadation etc well in advance
Helps to advertise and Hype the Final

Negatives
May end up in a team's home city giving them an advantage
Topping the league should give you a good reward
Criteria for picking venues may seem unfair.

So are you in favour of pre-chosen final venue or would you rather go back to top team gets home Final.
What are some things the Pro14 can do to improve the event.  My suggestion is we have an all stars game between a select 23 from both Conferences.  Each team not in the final has 3 players guaranteed and is managed by the coach who gets the most votes from that conference who didn't make the Play-offs.  It would be a BaaBaas type game with lots of entertainment and means fans get to see some of their players even if the team didn't make it.


Last edited by Brendan on Fri 03 Aug 2018, 3:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 03 Aug 2018, 1:52 pm

I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

As for an All-Star game - terrible idea. What is the point in more rugby at that stage of the season? Most players will be knackered. And some will not play due to the tests in July. I probably wouldn't pay to watch it.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 03 Aug 2018, 1:57 pm

I’ve no idea of what to be in favour of or against from this article.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Brendan on Fri 03 Aug 2018, 3:13 pm

Pot Hale wrote:I’ve no idea of what to be in favour of or against from this article.  

I put it in bold to help
Pre-chosen final picked at the start of the season or highest ranked team in the final gets it

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Brendan on Fri 03 Aug 2018, 3:19 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

As for an All-Star game - terrible idea. What is the point in more rugby at that stage of the season? Most players will be knackered. And some will not play due to the tests in July. I probably wouldn't pay to watch it.

It depends what is needed to host it. When you say competing teams do you mean in their own stadium. If the MS can hold champions league you would assume it should be able to hold it. There are many GAA stadiums that could hold it in Ireland but would that count as one of the provinces. Italy has plenty of places as do South Africa.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri 03 Aug 2018, 3:50 pm

ASG is a bad idea at that stage of the season as most players would be international players and are already playing too much rugby.

There are pros and cons to both including ticket sales. At the moment, the IRFU and SRU are the only ones pushing to host.

I would prefer going to a set rotation between each country with a minimum stadia of 20k to host. Have to choose a location at the start of the season.

If you want to be creative, how about applying to the 7's tour to host a rotating tournament to follow the final? So this year Scotstoun could have hosted the 7s, next year Millenium and Cardiff Arms Park, Italy could have Flaminio in Rome or Civica (built in 1807, has a football team in at the moment and used to host a rugby team) and San Siro in Milan*, and SA are not short of options.

*My knowledge of stadia in Italy is lacking so I am sure there are better suggestions

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 10:00 am

Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

As for an All-Star game - terrible idea. What is the point in more rugby at that stage of the season? Most players will be knackered. And some will not play due to the tests in July. I probably wouldn't pay to watch it.

It depends what is needed to host it.  When you say competing teams do you mean in their own stadium.  If the MS can hold champions league you would assume it should be able to hold it.  There are many GAA stadiums that could hold it in Ireland but would that count as one of the provinces.    Italy has plenty of places as do South Africa.

Maybe my wording wasn't great - Of course the Principality Stadium COULD host a Pro14 final. But they don't want to. Because they would rather host events that are more profitable. You could say that's not the Pro14's fault but when the Union of a domestic team in a tournament decides that hosting Monster Truck events are more important than the actual sport the stadium was designed for, what on earth are we supposed to think?

Northern Ireland hosted a final in a pre-determined 18k capacity stadium. Wales has 3 stadiums of 18k capacity and over. But again, it's one of those things that the Powers that be don't give a flying toss about. Anayi has never spoken about this as a concern as far as I'm aware. It's just not important to him or his bosses. And then people wonder why certain sections of rugby fans in Wales reciprocate this level of apathy.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 10:07 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 10:21 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

It's been reported that there have been guarantee financial return criteria and minimum capacity criteria in the past. So those stadiums that don't meet those criteria are not allowed to host. For example, I would expect a bid from Rodney Parade to be ruled out immediately.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 10:24 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

It's been reported that there have been guarantee financial return criteria and minimum capacity criteria in the past. So those stadiums that don't meet those criteria are not allowed to host. For example, I would expect a bid from Rodney Parade to be ruled out immediately.

Scotstoun doesn't have the capacity yet Glasgows bid was successful

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by PhilBB on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 10:30 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

It's been reported that there have been guarantee financial return criteria and minimum capacity criteria in the past. So those stadiums that don't meet those criteria are not allowed to host. For example, I would expect a bid from Rodney Parade to be ruled out immediately.

Scotstoun doesn't have the capacity yet Glasgows bid was successful

Glasgow didn't bid. The SRU did.
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 10:35 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

It's been reported that there have been guarantee financial return criteria and minimum capacity criteria in the past. So those stadiums that don't meet those criteria are not allowed to host. For example, I would expect a bid from Rodney Parade to be ruled out immediately.

Scotstoun doesn't have the capacity yet Glasgows bid was successful

What's that got to do with who can host it or not?

Can Rodney Parade host the final?

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 2:50 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

It's been reported that there have been guarantee financial return criteria and minimum capacity criteria in the past. So those stadiums that don't meet those criteria are not allowed to host. For example, I would expect a bid from Rodney Parade to be ruled out immediately.

Scotstoun doesn't have the capacity yet Glasgows bid was successful

What's that got to do with who can host it or not?

Can Rodney Parade host the final?

Seriously?

You don't grasp what that has to do with it?
Well none of the Welsh grounds can host the final since the regions refuse to bid

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 3:07 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

It's been reported that there have been guarantee financial return criteria and minimum capacity criteria in the past. So those stadiums that don't meet those criteria are not allowed to host. For example, I would expect a bid from Rodney Parade to be ruled out immediately.

Scotstoun doesn't have the capacity yet Glasgows bid was successful

What's that got to do with who can host it or not?

Can Rodney Parade host the final?

Seriously?

You don't grasp what that has to do with it?
Well none of the Welsh grounds can host the final since the regions refuse to bid

You've answered your own question there then. OK

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Mon 06 Aug 2018, 3:19 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm all in favour of it, as long as every nation that has teams competing in the tournament is able to host the final.

At the moment, it seems that in the Pro14, only 40% of the competing teams are able to host the final. Which is shocking.

Really? Who isn't allowed to host it?

It's been reported that there have been guarantee financial return criteria and minimum capacity criteria in the past. So those stadiums that don't meet those criteria are not allowed to host. For example, I would expect a bid from Rodney Parade to be ruled out immediately.

Scotstoun doesn't have the capacity yet Glasgows bid was successful

What's that got to do with who can host it or not?

Can Rodney Parade host the final?

Seriously?

You don't grasp what that has to do with it?
Well none of the Welsh grounds can host the final since the regions refuse to bid

You've answered your own question there then. OK

Erm I think you are confusing yourself again

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 07 Aug 2018, 9:12 pm

The Scottish bid was a combination of stakeholders who wanted to host the final in Glasgow including Warriors, Celtic FC, and relevant Glasgow city promoters/local government bodies.  

I don’t buy this Love sacks that Welsh regions refuse to bid because of stadium capacity.   The PRO14, rightly, is trying to grow the status and appeal of the final.  They’ve increased the attendance year on year.   And obviously, they want to appeal to rugby fans who aren’t necessarily fans of the participating teams as part of that growth and making it a weekend event in itself.  

Welsh fans need to get off their arses and be willing to travel in greater numbers than they do already.  

If the WRU can’t make the Millennium stadium available to host the event - even as a once off - then they need to look at themselves to establish their priorities, rather than handing out blame to everyone else.  

If the PRO14 manage to fill/nearly fill Celtic Park, then Lansdowne Road drops down the pecking order in terms of appeal.   Ticket pricing and local demand has a part to play too.

From my point of view, if the PRO14 final is held in a packed out Twickenham or San Siro stadium or Cape Town because it has the best capacity and weekend event appeal that sells, that’s fine with me.
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 8:11 am

Pro14 hold on to the gate receipts of the final as that funds the leagues overheads for the following season.

To the best of my knowledge food and beer revenue remains with the venue but depending on how the stalls are let/rented the venue might not get additional revenue from those stalls on the day.

It will still cost a certain amount of money to run the stadium for the day. The argument would be the visitors flying in to a specific city would spend more and generate tax/vat revenue on hotels/restaurants/bars to more than offset those running costs and an agreement could be made between local businesses/council to share the spoils.

The Principality is a very large stadium and a massive capacity. It probably has the largest running cost of murrayfield, Lansdowne and itself. That would also mean it would need the largest guaranteed numbers showing up to make it worthwhile. The Pro14 final grows into a proper event and you'll see them apply.

Would love a final in cape town. But if Scarlets were in the pro14 and HC finals (very possible) then you'd have a situation of them travelling half way around the world with knockout rounds either side of those trips, feels like it would be too much of an impact on the players at that time.

Not sure where the final would be in Italy but would be great to show inclusion and get the Final over there.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:07 am

Pot Hale wrote:The Scottish bid was a combination of stakeholders who wanted to host the final in Glasgow including Warriors, Celtic FC, and relevant Glasgow city promoters/local government bodies.  

I don’t buy this Love sacks that Welsh regions refuse to bid because of stadium capacity.   The PRO14, rightly, is trying to grow the status and appeal of the final.  They’ve increased the attendance year on year.   And obviously, they want to appeal to rugby fans who aren’t necessarily fans of the participating teams as part of that growth and making it a weekend event in itself.  

Welsh fans need to get off their arses and be willing to travel in greater numbers than they do already.  

If the WRU can’t make the Millennium stadium available to host the event - even as a once off - then they need to look at themselves to establish their priorities, rather than handing out blame to everyone else.  

If the PRO14 manage to fill/nearly fill Celtic Park, then Lansdowne Road drops down the pecking order in terms of appeal.   Ticket pricing and local demand has a part to play too.  

From my point of view, if the PRO14 final is held in a packed out Twickenham or San Siro stadium or Cape Town because it has the best capacity and weekend event appeal that sells, that’s fine with me.

The priority of the WRU is making money to spend on the game in Wales. It has set its priority. It doesn't need to "look at themselves" and neither has it "handed out blame to everyone else", unless you can point me to where it has done so. I'll wait.....

Welsh fans have little interest in travelling for PrO'14 matches and they have even less interest in watching non-Welsh teams play a game in Wales. It's an interesting business plan that tells its customers they are wrong, rather than giving the customers want they want, that you are extolling here.

Is it not the case that the stadium has to have a minimum capacity greater than that of the two primary tenanted Welsh professional rugby grounds? If so, quite how can you write that stuff about "love sacks"? It's non-sensical.

Plus, of course, "Warriors" don't exist outside of the SRU.
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:08 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
The Principality is a very large stadium and a massive capacity.  It probably has the largest running cost of murrayfield, Lansdowne and itself. That would also mean it would need the largest guaranteed numbers showing up to make it worthwhile.  The Pro14 final grows into a proper event and you'll see them apply.

Only when / if the final makes as much money as a Beyonce concert or a Monster Truck show.
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 9:30 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Pro14 hold on to the gate receipts of the final as that funds the leagues overheads for the following season.  

Pretty sure that's wrong, that's where the guarantee from the hosts comes in. Pro14 are guaranteed a certain amount and anything above that the hosts receive, it could have changed but that was the impression I got from when Ulster hosted the final in the first year


thebandwagonsociety wrote:Not sure where the final would be in Italy but would be great to show inclusion and get the Final over there.

There are plenty of great places to stage the game, if it was to be played in the north of Italy where rugby is popular that could be tapped into and the French rugby fans might be attracted by the right teams. I think more ground work needs to be done in Italy though to push the league and build a bigger fanbase

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:07 am

Pot Hale wrote:

If the WRU can’t make the Millennium stadium available to host the event - even as a once off - then they need to look at themselves to establish their priorities, rather than handing out blame to everyone else.  

.

Christ alive, what an arrogant, misinformed thing to say.

That's like someone asking you to fork out £15,000 to pay for a music festival at your local park, out of the goodness of your own heart. The local kids really want to see Stormzy. If you don't fork out the costs for this festival Pot Hale, you really need to take a look at yourself.

And by the way, stop blaming everyone else if you can't afford it and want to spend the money on a loft conversion instead.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Tramptastic on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:13 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

If the WRU can’t make the Millennium stadium available to host the event - even as a once off - then they need to look at themselves to establish their priorities, rather than handing out blame to everyone else.  

.

Christ alive, what an arrogant, misinformed thing to say.

That's like someone asking you to fork out £15,000 to pay for a music festival at your local park, out of the goodness of your own heart. The local kids really want to see Stormzy. If you don't fork out the costs for this festival Pot Hale, you really need to take a look at yourself.

And by the way, stop blaming everyone else if you can't afford it and want to spend the money on a loft conversion instead.

I dont know if it's arrogant - is he not just trying to say "you've got to spend money to make money"? i.e. take a hit, potentially, to grow the game in wales or grow the pro 14 brand which the WRU are a part of?

Celtic Park will probably not sell out but in terms of trying to advertise the sport in a part of Scotland that traditionally is football based it's really good PR and could pay dividends down the line - attracting more sponsers etc

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by George Carlin on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

I recall that the minimum ground capacity is 21,000 or it was a few years ago.

I am in favour of not pre-determining the final venue - I still think that hosting it should be the privilege of the finalist which scored most points in the regular league season.

However, the problem with that is logistics. Lots of people whinge that they cannot make a trip to a venue in another country on such short notice, cannot find a hotel, cannot get a flight, etc. I understand this.

Either way, Celtic Park is awesome when it's full - a steep, noisy cauldron. It should be a very good venue for the final (although I'm guessing that the pitch may be on the narrow side?).
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:18 am

Tramptastic wrote:
I dont know if it's arrogant - is he not just trying to say "you've got to spend money to make money"? i.e. take a hit, potentially, to grow the game in wales or grow the pro 14 brand which the WRU are a part of?


It is not in the interest of a company to take a "hit". They are not convinced there would be any benefit of losing out on hundreds of thousands of pounds as it would not be recouped later. Again, this notion of misty eyed nobleness and 'for the good of the game' rubbish is being spouted in a world were the reality is of a cut throat professional sport. Chucking away money with absolutely no guarantee of any benefit is not going to happen.

This is amazing spin, fair play.


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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:20 am

George Carlin wrote:I recall that the minimum ground capacity is 21,000 or it was a few years ago.


I expect that only applied in all the years either side of the time that the 18,000 capacity Kingspan stadium in Belfast hosted the final.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:20 am

Tramptastic wrote:

I dont know if it's arrogant - is he not just trying to say "you've got to spend money to make money"? i.e. take a hit, potentially, to grow the game in wales or grow the pro 14 brand which the WRU are a part of?

Celtic Park will probably not sell out but in terms of trying to advertise the sport in a part of Scotland that traditionally is football based it's really good PR and could pay dividends down the line - attracting more sponsers etc

Mate, rugby doesn't need to "grow" in Wales. You're right on the PrO'14 brand, however, as that has a huge way to go in terms of being accepted. In fact, it probably has too far to go.

As for speculating to accumulate, that's a worthy way of looking at investment. But, then again, so is "a bird in the hand" etc.

So what it comes down to is pretty simple: is it worth speculating to accumulate on the PrO'14. And the answer is a resounding: NO.
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:22 am

Tramptastic wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

If the WRU can’t make the Millennium stadium available to host the event - even as a once off - then they need to look at themselves to establish their priorities, rather than handing out blame to everyone else.  

.

Christ alive, what an arrogant, misinformed thing to say.

That's like someone asking you to fork out £15,000 to pay for a music festival at your local park, out of the goodness of your own heart. The local kids really want to see Stormzy. If you don't fork out the costs for this festival Pot Hale, you really need to take a look at yourself.

And by the way, stop blaming everyone else if you can't afford it and want to spend the money on a loft conversion instead.

I dont know if it's arrogant - is he not just trying to say "you've got to spend money to make money"? i.e. take a hit, potentially, to grow the game in wales or grow the pro 14 brand which the WRU are a part of?

Celtic Park will probably not sell out but in terms of trying to advertise the sport in a part of Scotland that traditionally is football based it's really good PR and could pay dividends down the line - attracting more sponsers etc

Not just that but you have Welsh fans complaining about certain nations not getting to host it but if you aren't in you can't win and the Regions refuse to bid because they don't like the system. They are cutting off their nose to spite their face when in fact they could do wonders for the league if they hosted the final as a destination final, it could draw in some of those who have disengaged with the league in Wales and generate revenue for a region or even all the regions

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:24 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:
I dont know if it's arrogant - is he not just trying to say "you've got to spend money to make money"? i.e. take a hit, potentially, to grow the game in wales or grow the pro 14 brand which the WRU are a part of?


It is not in the interest of a company to take a "hit". They are not convinced there would be any benefit of losing out on hundreds of thousands of pounds as it would not be recouped later. Again, this notion of misty eyed nobleness and 'for the good of the game' rubbish is being spouted in a world were the reality is of a cut throat professional sport. Chucking away money with absolutely no guarantee of any benefit is not going to happen.

This is amazing spin, fair play.


Except the regions are flat out refusing to bid, they haven't even done a business case for hosting the final they just don't like the system

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:33 am

marty2086 wrote:

Not just that but you have Welsh fans complaining about certain nations not getting to host it but if you aren't in you can't win and the Regions refuse to bid because they don't like the system. They are cutting off their nose to spite their face when in fact they could do wonders for the league if they hosted the final as a destination final, it could draw in some of those who have disengaged with the league in Wales and generate revenue for a region or even all the regions

Other than none of our pro teams have primacy of tenancy on a venue capable of hosting the final, of course. Nor could they independently pay the fee to host the final, as per your previous post on that subject.

Other than all of that, yep they are cutting off their nose. Just as I'm doing by not holidaying in a £10,000 per night villa in Florida this summer.
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by PhilBB on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:34 am

marty2086 wrote:

Except the regions are flat out refusing to bid, they haven't even done a business case for hosting the final they just don't like the system

Anybody want to ask Martyn to show the proof for this claim?
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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Tramptastic on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:36 am

Legit, if Glasgow or Edinburgh made a final and it was hosted at the principality - I would make the trip

Never been to Wales but I'd go for that and then go explore!

I get the whole "ah it's a cut-throat business/thats not how money works/nobody spends" but then thats not true in business at all - look at companies purchasing others, Disney purchased Lucasfilm for however many billion BUT they are confident of profit down the line.

It's not a directly relevant sample but it does highlight spending money to make money and the Pro 14 business blurb about "reaching new markets" is spot on, in Celtic Parks case potential attracting typical football sponsers and saying "hey look, our product is really good and look at this huge crowd we've attracted".

Apologies Phil, im not an expert on rugby in Wales, but doesnt Welsh rugby have a similar competition with football that scotland does (probably not that bad tbh)? I don't think you can ever shoot down encouraging growth/playing numbers/punters who will encourage their kids to play

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:41 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Except the regions are flat out refusing to bid, they haven't even done a business case for hosting the final they just don't like the system

Anybody want to ask Martyn to show the proof for this claim?

What's the point? He'll just answer a question with a question or write a nonsensical paragraph of blurb to deflect from his own misunderstandings.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:42 am

Tramptastic wrote:Legit, if Glasgow or Edinburgh made a final and it was hosted at the principality - I would make the trip

Never been to Wales but I'd go for that and then go explore!

I get the whole "ah it's a cut-throat business/thats not how money works/nobody spends" but then thats not true in business at all - look at companies purchasing others, Disney purchased Lucasfilm for however many billion BUT they are confident of profit down the line.

It's not a directly relevant sample but it does highlight spending money to make money and the Pro 14 business blurb about "reaching new markets" is spot on, in Celtic Parks case potential attracting typical football sponsers and saying "hey look, our product is really good and look at this huge crowd we've attracted".

Apologies Phil, im not an expert on rugby in Wales, but doesnt Welsh rugby have a similar competition with football that scotland does (probably not that bad tbh)? I don't think you can ever shoot down encouraging growth/playing numbers/punters who will encourage their kids to play

Question: Will Celtic Park have had to turn down moneyspinning offers of hosting Ed Sheerhan concerts, rugby league, speedway, monster truck events etc in order to host the Pro14 final?

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:47 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:Legit, if Glasgow or Edinburgh made a final and it was hosted at the principality - I would make the trip

Never been to Wales but I'd go for that and then go explore!

I get the whole "ah it's a cut-throat business/thats not how money works/nobody spends" but then thats not true in business at all - look at companies purchasing others, Disney purchased Lucasfilm for however many billion BUT they are confident of profit down the line.

It's not a directly relevant sample but it does highlight spending money to make money and the Pro 14 business blurb about "reaching new markets" is spot on, in Celtic Parks case potential attracting typical football sponsers and saying "hey look, our product is really good and look at this huge crowd we've attracted".

Apologies Phil, im not an expert on rugby in Wales, but doesnt Welsh rugby have a similar competition with football that scotland does (probably not that bad tbh)? I don't think you can ever shoot down encouraging growth/playing numbers/punters who will encourage their kids to play

Question: Will Celtic Park have had to turn down moneyspinning offers of hosting Ed Sheerhan concerts, rugby league, speedway, monster truck events etc in order to host the Pro14 final?

No one has to turn anything down, this things are scheduled. If the PS was unavailable because of the Pro14 final, Ed would play another date. A bit like he's not turned away because Wales are playing there, that's how these things work

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Tramptastic on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:49 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:Legit, if Glasgow or Edinburgh made a final and it was hosted at the principality - I would make the trip

Never been to Wales but I'd go for that and then go explore!

I get the whole "ah it's a cut-throat business/thats not how money works/nobody spends" but then thats not true in business at all - look at companies purchasing others, Disney purchased Lucasfilm for however many billion BUT they are confident of profit down the line.

It's not a directly relevant sample but it does highlight spending money to make money and the Pro 14 business blurb about "reaching new markets" is spot on, in Celtic Parks case potential attracting typical football sponsers and saying "hey look, our product is really good and look at this huge crowd we've attracted".

Apologies Phil, im not an expert on rugby in Wales, but doesnt Welsh rugby have a similar competition with football that scotland does (probably not that bad tbh)? I don't think you can ever shoot down encouraging growth/playing numbers/punters who will encourage their kids to play

Question: Will Celtic Park have had to turn down moneyspinning offers of hosting Ed Sheerhan concerts, rugby league, speedway, monster truck events etc in order to host the Pro14 final?

No one has to turn anything down, this things are scheduled. If the PS was unavailable because of the Pro14 final, Ed would play another date. A bit like he's not turned away because Wales are playing there, that's how these things work

Celtic were a part of the bid, they wanted in so presumably they were involved in booking the date for the final and were a part of discussions, so unlikely they turned down anything else or booted somebody out

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by BamBam on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:55 am

There's always something or someone else to blame if you're Welsh

Speedway and monster trucks being more lucrative than the Pro14 final says a lot about the state of some Welsh supporters and their supposed love of their "national game"

Love it as long as they get everything free, in their back yard and they don't have to fork out a dime.

There's a good word for something which exists only by feeding at the expense of others

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:11 am

BamBam wrote:

Speedway and monster trucks being more lucrative than the Pro14 final says a lot about the state of some Welsh supporters and their supposed love of their "national game"


That's brilliant. Utterly brilliant.

Sod market forces. It's Welsh rugby fans' fault. Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:12 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:

Speedway and monster trucks being more lucrative than the Pro14 final says a lot about the state of some Welsh supporters and their supposed love of their "national game"


That's brilliant. Utterly brilliant.

Sod market forces. It's Welsh rugby fans' fault. Very Happy Very Happy

Sod market forces is what the regions seem to say, they much prefer to shackle the league and keep it in smaller stadiums while others have tried to tap into the leagues growth and make the final a real occasion like a proper cup final

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by Tramptastic on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:15 am

BamBam wrote:There's always something or someone else to blame if you're Welsh

Speedway and monster trucks being more lucrative than the Pro14 final says a lot about the state of some Welsh supporters and their supposed love of their "national game"

Love it as long as they get everything free, in their back yard and they don't have to fork out a dime.

There's a good word for something which exists only by feeding at the expense of others

well that escalated quickly

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:23 am

Can you?

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:24 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Can you?

Can you touch your nose and stick your tongue out at the same time?

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:25 am

Hopefully posters can look at the last few comments and judge for themselves the quality of the words you type Marty.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by BamBam on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:32 am

Market forces eh? Like I said, always something else for the Welsh to blame

The market force of demand is completely in the hands of the poor little Welsh rugby fans - show the appetite to pay for a ticket, travel to a game, spend in the bars and guess what - it becomes lucrative enough for the MS to host the final!

Or just sit and whinge on internet forums that its not fair

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:34 am

I have never been to a Pro14/12 final - but based on numerous trips to European (10 finals in a row from 2001) and English finals having the final in a place known in advance makes sense.

You can start the marketing early and generally sell the bulk of the tickets well before the finalists can ever be known. Both the finals I mention attract fans from a plethora of clubs who book to enjoy the experience usually only with a faint hope their side may be there. We would have gone to Bilbao this year if accommodation had not been so damned expensive, but will go to Newcastle next spring.

MS has shown it can host European finals and fill the ground for "Foreign" clubs, no reason they cannot do the same for a Pro14 final - IF they choose to tender. Stating that this means losing money due to cancelling a booking is only applicable if they have used up the maximum number of bookings allowed at the stadium in a year (no idea what this is, but pretty sure there will be a restriction). If this is the case then it is the WRU who are deciding that Monster Trucks or a Ginger bloke from Norfolk are more desirable than a rugby final. If not - well these other dates can be moved around.

Holding the final at club grounds as per Super Rugby would remove all the spectacle and really make the whole thing rather low key.

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:36 am

BamBam wrote:Market forces eh? Like I said, always something else for the Welsh to blame

The market force of demand is completely in the hands of the poor little Welsh rugby fans - show the appetite to pay for a ticket, travel to a game, spend in the bars and guess what - it becomes lucrative enough for the MS to host the final!

Or just sit and whinge on internet forums that its not fair

Very Happy

So let me get this straight:

The WRU aren't bidding for the Pro14 final because they don't see it as a viable way to maximize revenue, and instead hold non sporting events that rake in millions.

But it is the fault of Welsh rugby fans that the Pro14 final isn't held in Wales?

Is that seriously what you are saying here?

That is gold. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:38 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Hopefully posters can look at the last few comments and judge for themselves the quality of the words you type Marty.

Or maybe they can see how seriously I take you, you called the claim they want it kept in smaller stadia libellous. Something that requires proof in itself

You want proof, that the regions who refuse to bid because they want the top ranked sf winner hosting the final which would keep it in stadia smaller than Celtic Park? Sorry I got nothing Rolling Eyes

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:38 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The WRU aren't bidding for the Pro14 final because they don't see it as a viable way to maximize revenue, and instead hold non sporting events that rake in millions.


Have you got proof of that?

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by BamBam on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:39 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Market forces eh? Like I said, always something else for the Welsh to blame

The market force of demand is completely in the hands of the poor little Welsh rugby fans - show the appetite to pay for a ticket, travel to a game, spend in the bars and guess what - it becomes lucrative enough for the MS to host the final!

Or just sit and whinge on internet forums that its not fair

Very Happy

So let me get this straight:

The WRU aren't bidding for the Pro14 final because they don't see it as a viable way to maximize revenue, and instead hold non sporting events that rake in millions.

But it is the fault of Welsh rugby fans that the Pro14 final isn't held in Wales?

Is that seriously what you are saying here?

That is gold. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Why don't they see it as a viable way to maximise revenue? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Is speedway a more lucrative sport than rugby everywhere else in the world? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Is that because they don't think the Welsh rugby public would buy the tickets at the price they would need to set them at? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Is that because the Welsh rugby public think they're entitled to everything for free? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:40 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:

The WRU aren't bidding for the Pro14 final because they don't see it as a viable way to maximize revenue, and instead hold non sporting events that rake in millions.


Have you got proof of that?

Yes:

https://www.songkick.com/venues/1751-principality-stadium

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Re: Pro 14 final Neutral venue v home stadium.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Aug 2018, 11:42 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:

The WRU aren't bidding for the Pro14 final because they don't see it as a viable way to maximize revenue, and instead hold non sporting events that rake in millions.


Have you got proof of that?

Yes:

https://www.songkick.com/venues/1751-principality-stadium

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

So because they hold other events there its proof that the WRU don't bid because they don't see it as a viable way to maximise revenue? Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

And can I add

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

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