RFU get their man - Englands new defence coach is?

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 04 Aug 2018, 11:52 pm

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:10 pm

miaow wrote:Also, England would be foolish to give it to Mitchell or Borthwick.

You made that mistake in 04. Ireland are about to make the same mistake with Farrell - though arguably they've already felt the effects of that, as the parallels between the teams he coached in 2015 and 2019 seem almost uncanny.

If EJ is hungry for another 4 years he should stay. If not, see out the season and hand over the ropes - but it needs to be a clean break.

Too much succession planning is scared of allow someone a bit of a bumpy entrance for the sake of a clean break and then success not long after.

You'd hamstring the next guy if you ask/make him be EJ's understudy for a year or whatever. Whoever is up to the job, just give it him when EJ is done: either of his own volition, or when they sense his heart isn't there.

Which might be next Monday.

But Borthwick and Mitchell? Neither looks suited to the top job, not yet anyway. If England want to capitalise on some players like Itoje, Underhill etc. peaking, you don't want to get it wrong by promoting the assistant and hoping for the best.

Miaow's bid for the top job starts now..

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Theres negatives and positives to anyone miaow. Obviously depends on who applies but both those guys would make the shortlist.

Didn't Mitchell have some top level coaching experience? I seem to remember him coaching another country. Maybe it was one whose last coach was promoted from assistent to become their most successful ever (until last week).

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:14 pm

Doesnt ring a bell. Think he was plucked from obscurity.

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Post by miaow on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:05 pm

lostinwales wrote:
miaow wrote:Also, England would be foolish to give it to Mitchell or Borthwick.

You made that mistake in 04. Ireland are about to make the same mistake with Farrell - though arguably they've already felt the effects of that, as the parallels between the teams he coached in 2015 and 2019 seem almost uncanny.

If EJ is hungry for another 4 years he should stay. If not, see out the season and hand over the ropes - but it needs to be a clean break.

Too much succession planning is scared of allow someone a bit of a bumpy entrance for the sake of a clean break and then success not long after.

You'd hamstring the next guy if you ask/make him be EJ's understudy for a year or whatever. Whoever is up to the job, just give it him when EJ is done: either of his own volition, or when they sense his heart isn't there.

Which might be next Monday.

But Borthwick and Mitchell? Neither looks suited to the top job, not yet anyway. If England want to capitalise on some players like Itoje, Underhill etc. peaking, you don't want to get it wrong by promoting the assistant and hoping for the best.

Miaow's bid for the top job starts now..

You can have Rob Howley instead.

Donkey.

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Post by miaow on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Theres negatives and positives to anyone miaow. Obviously depends on who applies but both those guys would make the shortlist.

I'm sure they would. But England have had 5 coaches since Woodward.

Andy Robinson - useless
Brian Ashton - naive and ultimately useless
Martin Johnson - unqualified
Lancaster - good but flawed
Eddie Jones - the one who's turned everything around

Making the shortlist means nothing, really. All of the above looked good on paper.

I wouldn't be surprised for England to go back to Japan for their next head coach to be honest.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:13 pm

miaow wrote:...

You can have Rob Howley instead.

Donkey.

Is that a reference to me, to Howler, you sigining off or the start of some new word game.

I am assuming its the latter so,

Giraffe.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:30 pm

There isnt one way to go. To suggest that stepping up doesnt work ignores guys like Hansen.

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Post by miaow on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:40 pm

I did think of Hansen, but he was very much part of Henry's progress, starting with taking over Wales, including a mixed/poor stint as HC, then again ran the show with the ABs in Henry's wake. Hansen basically had 20 years in his coaching career starting in NZ, learnt about the game as HC, then had 7 years of unbroke prep for the NZ job: which started brilliantly, aided by a world class generation about 6 years ago, but even then he ultimately failed in 2017 and now 2019. 1 out of 3 for the big tournaments. That will weigh heavily on him.

Mitchell's been in the job 12 months. Wasn't he retired before this? Or had been bumbling around in club rugby as a hired gun. Very different scenario. He's been brought in to achieve a purpose. Eddie Jones likewise, but he's the brains/talent of the operation. This is his system. Mitchell is a cog within it - if he'd been there for all 4 years, then maybe. But EJ has a high turnover rate for a reason, or several reasons.

I expect Andy Farrell to 'fail' with Ireland - not be dreadful, but never to do what Schmidt did 4-5 years ago, which was make Ireland world class, and then have another go in this WC cycle. I'd expect both English assistants to do the same. Not sure Hansen actually disproves that. He certainly didn't overachieve with NZ.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:42 pm

So its purely new guys into the job who can be good. Like the new wales manager.

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Post by miaow on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:57 pm

No. But in the absence of a clear succession plan, and the lack of recent head coaching pedigree in any of EJ's subordinates, I fail to see how England would be best placed by promoting from within. Jamie Joseph would be my pick, tbh - and another reason why I think signing up a Head Coach 12 months before the current one leaves is f'ing stupid. Because the picture changes a lot in 12 months.

Incidentally, I'm not sure Pivac will work with Wales. His best asset with the Scarlets was his recruitment - we are/were so much better than the other regions because not only do we produce some real talent in the outside backs, 9s, hooker, and the odd back rower, but he brought in hit after hit from overseas. Whether that's Johnny Mc, Tadhg Beirne, Rhys Patchell for the title winning season etc. He can't do that with Wales, and as he's had two long losing streaks in club rugby - one being right to the end of his tenure, the other crossing over from one season to the next where he nearly lost his job but won the league instead - I don't think he has the time and the ability to stop the rot if that happens in test rugby. I'm not optimistic about his chances.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 11:15 pm

You have no idea what succession planning theres been or what it entails.

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Post by miaow on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 11:22 pm

Unless you do then it's a pointless point to raise. I've compared Hansen's 7 years v Mitchell's 1.

So help me out. What do you know about the succession planning?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 11:28 pm

No I dont. But then I'm not posting pretending that I know the rfu dont have one am I? Theres no point responding any more to you tonight.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 11:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by miaow on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 11:29 pm

Right, excellent, good logic.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:34 am

After 6 years as an assistant coach in international rugby, it looks like Borthwick may well be heading to Leicester to get top man experience.

Mitchell has done wonders, has past head coach experience at international level but does not seem to wish to move his family.

COS has rejoined the RFU in a role similar to the old Rob Andrew one.

Jones has a contract for another two years and according to some rumours RFU now want to sign him up until 2023.

Perhaps the best fit for the job within the Gallagher Prem is at Bristol.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:42 am

So its a new coaching staff pretty much ..bar Eddie post world cup

Shaun Edwards coming in?

We also have a few positions still toook at regardless of if we win this or not.

The Full back & wing issue
The 10 and 12 issue.

Ill also be facinated to see how the back row develops /evolves. They've been sensational...but by heck they have some competition coming through.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:43 am

Edwards has been hired by France

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:44 am

And yes - with Wisemantel and Hatley confirmed leavers, and Borthwick looking likely, it will be all change.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:44 am

Edward's is frances new defence coach. If he can bring a bit of discipline they're going to be useful.
If they want to freshen fly half I think in the next year or so Smith and simmonds could be interesting.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:44 am

Aaww sorry im not quite up to speed with everything.

Oh well it'll be interesting to see.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:46 am

10 and 12 is a dilema.

Ford is a classy fly half...who is getting better.
Farrell is a winner..ruthless and top class fly half.

Maybe eddie will continue horses for courses and in the mean time try to develop a quality 12 fron somewhere.

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Post by Afro on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:46 am

LondonTiger wrote:Edwards has been hired by France

Has it actually been officially confirmed yet? I know he has come out and said he'll be in France, but I don't think I have seen anything official
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:48 am

Thought I heard it confirmed in the wales France match.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:54 am

LondonTiger wrote:After 6 years as an assistant coach in international rugby, it looks like Borthwick may well be heading to Leicester to get top man experience.

Mitchell has done wonders, has past head coach experience at international level but does not seem to wish to move his family.

COS has rejoined the RFU in a role similar to the old Rob Andrew one.

Jones has a contract for another two years and according to some rumours RFU now want to sign him up until 2023.

Perhaps the best fit for the job within the Gallagher Prem is at Bristol.

Borthwick to Tigers does seem a shrewd move from him in terms of getting the job post Jones. As it stands things are so bad at Tigers he will be given a couple of seasons to make an impact, but theres no question the club has the finances and draw to be a contender for meaningful club trophies again. 

As a former test captain and proven coach at all levels the only box he hasnt ticked is head coach. Theres always a preference from the RFU to get an English coach in, even if Jones has shown how flawed that thinking was. 

Miaow was right to point out that promoting an inside man hasnt worked for England post Woodward, all of the coaches except Johnson were really career RFU coaches.  Borthwick to me is different, and stepping away from the set up for two years/a full cycle (dependant on what Jones signs up to) will give that "clean break" and show if he has what it takes to be his own man. 

I was never a Borthwick fan as a player or England captain, but I have to say hes been a brilliant coach. Very much looking forward to someone who has his pedigree coming to Tigers and if he proves to have enough about him to step out of shadow of the whiteboard and into the glare of the press conference (the big area he struggled as a captain) and take on board some of Jones' leadership qualities then I feel he could be a real success as a coach. 

English coaches for whatever reason tend not to go and get head roles with lower tier countries so we dont have a supply of home grown test coaches. 
the choice will be between a Jamie Joseph type ( and that will be way too confusing with the 13) Jones mark II, Farrell senior if he has had some success with Ireland, and Borthwick if he can turn Tigers around. Much better than turning to a former Captain who's never coached (ok he was the manager but ...) or a school teacher with a chip on his shoulder. Or Brian "backs dont need to tackle" Ashton. 

Thinking back as well the head coaches tended to inherit the other backroom staff which also was a mistake. It always felt that Rob Andrew was controlling their subordinates not them.  

For me Im looking forward and seeing that England could have some pretty good options to succeed Jones, and right now getting rid of him should be the last thing on anyones mind. I suspect being head coach of a winning side (getting ahead of myself there of course!) is much more of a draw for him to extend his contract that it would be if he'd done just enough to convince the RFU to not sack him and see out the two years.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 10:05 am

Ashton was a very good attack coach and should have should have stayed at that...not head coach or defensive duties

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 10:07 am

Be interesting to see of Eddie stays with England aswell or if he does go back to Oz.

I thought he said after England duties he would retire to a peaceful life.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 10:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Be interesting to see of Eddie stays with England aswell  or if he does go back to Oz.

I thought he said after England duties he would retire to a peaceful life.

He's said many things. One of them was that he'd like to become Director of Rugby at a rugby-playing school. Whether he means them or not is another thing, but I am currently enjoying the idea (however unlikely) that he could end up at my son's school. That would shake them up.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 10:34 am

Very true Poorfour...

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