To haka or not to haka (again)

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To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 15 Aug 2018, 2:28 am

First topic message reminder :

The haka has popped up again in debate in New Zealand. A new book by Peter Bills appears to quote some former All Blacks saying the haka has become over-used and over-commercialised. There is some question over whether all those comments have been taken out of context but it has prompted dicussion of "haka fatigue". Some have suggested the haka should only be performed overseas, which apparently used to be the case.

Here's one article on the subject:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/all-blacks-haka-has-lost-its-mana-nz-legends-claim

In Japan the other day, the New Zealand womens softball team performed a haka to their Taiwanese opposition, who threw salt on the ground afterwards in response. The Kiwis thought was it was dirt, and a sign of disrespect, so they did the haka again. This was described as a "cultural misunderstanding".

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/106016553/official-warnings-issued-after-chinese-taipei-softballers-throw-salt-after-nz-white-sox-haka


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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 1:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:What I would like to know is, if the people of New Zealand demand respect for the Haka, than why isn't any respect given back ?

I remember a few years back, New Zealand were playing Wales, the WRU respected the All Blacks right to perform the Haka, but they asked if they could do it before Wales sang their national anthem, as in Wales we see our anthem as something of pride, the Welsh are re-known for their singing, yet the All Blacks threw a massive hissy fit and said no as it was unfair and disrespectful blah, blah, blah....

We just wanted to sing the anthem in response, we wanted to get geed up for the game as well, but the All Blacks just had a tantrum and performed the haka in the changing room.

So is this it ? The Polynesian teams can perform theirs haka's, but nobody is allowed to respond to them ?

One year we did a stand off, and there was murders over that, apparently we were showing disrespect. The thing is, the haka must give a side performing it at least a tiny percent more motivation, how can it not ?

I would just like to see a team going up against it, being given the respect, and right, to respond how they see fit.

Love it how that story gets deliberately changed. Wales approached NZ on their centenerary to change the order from what had been there for the last century to the anthem last. NZ agreed on that occasion.
Then the next year good old wales decided they wanted to do the same again. NZ declined.

Pays to get the story right. It was Wales that overstepped the mark in what was a perfectly agreeable understanding initially. Tantrum? Grow up. They politely declined and did it in the changing rooms.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 2:58 pm

Stamped their feet and got their way to an extent then.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 3:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stamped their feet and got their way to an extent then.

Curiously worded there 7. As that's exactly the story of the ABs for a long long time. Stamp their feet (do the Haka) then get their way (win handsomely). Wink

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 3:38 pm

It's magic.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 9:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Stamped their feet and got their way to an extent then.

Curiously worded there 7.  As that's exactly the story of the ABs for a long long time.  Stamp their feet (do the Haka) then get their way (win handsomely).  Wink

And thankfully the two are mutually exclusive.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 9:40 pm

Don't intellectually dissect a little tie-in gag, Taylor. It ruins a comedian's career. Life is tough enough as it is Wink

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 16 Sep 2018, 10:13 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Tonga are allowed to always perform their pre-match ritual while at the same time WR insist some opponents abandon theirs.
(Puts hand up in air) - Please Sir, why is that not double standards?

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Those girls made a mistake. People make mistakes. Yet you see the one act as representative of all things about the haka. You look for anomalies to reinforce your underlying point which is simply that you dont like it, or dont get it and you see it as an unfair advantage. Well boo hoo. Youve been told why they do it, youve been told its not first and formost to get an advantage. What evidence is there that it benefits Tonga? None.
You try to create a link between the AB version and their success. Well, its purely a fallacy.

Get over it pal, its here to stay. Its done for reasons you have no possible chance of ever understanding, because youre simply a bigot.

I really enjoyed the haka Te Toiroa Tahuriorang's family performed. I also really enjoyed those school hakas that I think you once posted her before.

Even as an outsider to New Zealand, and Maori culture in particular, I can appreciate what is at stake. We all know what family means, however you choose to express it, and I know what it felt like to come of age.

I didn't start this thread so everyone could have a pop at New Zealand. I started it precisely because New Zealanders themselves were beginning to question its place in rugby, and professional sport in general. I haven't heard that before. Consequently, to take this thread into "NZ vs bigots" territory is avoiding the central question of why New Zealanders think the haka might not be appropriate.

Perhaps, but thats not where Aukster was taking it. It was clearly a them vs NZ thing.

My last post was related to Tonga - clearly moving the discussion away from "a them vs NZ thing".

The question remains, does the inequitable treatment that Sports governing bodies afford the haka encourage its overuse?

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Sun 16 Sep 2018, 12:34 pm

What do you mean by overuse?

If you watch the ABs you’d see them do their haka before every test and that’s about it from them. If you see the NZ U20s you’d also see a haka before each game. Same with the 7s and Black Ferns. The 7s usually go a bit crazy and do their haka if they win a tournament as well and you may have a point there. Is it all these haka added up together that annoys you?

The Welsh crowd booed the ABs when they were expecting a haka but didn’t get one. They weren’t aware the ABs had already done their haka to the squad and staff in the dressing room. Do you think the Welsh crowd thought the ABs were dissing them?
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 16 Sep 2018, 1:48 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What I would like to know is, if the people of New Zealand demand respect for the Haka, than why isn't any respect given back ?

I remember a few years back, New Zealand were playing Wales, the WRU respected the All Blacks right to perform the Haka, but they asked if they could do it before Wales sang their national anthem, as in Wales we see our anthem as something of pride, the Welsh are re-known for their singing, yet the All Blacks threw a massive hissy fit and said no as it was unfair and disrespectful blah, blah, blah....

We just wanted to sing the anthem in response, we wanted to get geed up for the game as well, but the All Blacks just had a tantrum and performed the haka in the changing room.

So is this it ? The Polynesian teams can perform theirs haka's, but nobody is allowed to respond to them ?

One year we did a stand off, and there was murders over that, apparently we were showing disrespect. The thing is, the haka must give a side performing it at least a tiny percent more motivation, how can it not ?

I would just like to see a team going up against it, being given the respect, and right, to respond how they see fit.

Love it how that story gets deliberately changed. Wales approached NZ on their centenerary to change the order from what had been there for the last century to the anthem last. NZ agreed on that occasion.
Then the next year good old wales decided they wanted  to do the same again. NZ declined.

Pays to get the story right. It was Wales that overstepped the mark in what was a perfectly agreeable understanding initially. Tantrum? Grow up. They politely declined and did it in the changing rooms.
Surely the All Blacks were free to do what they wanted once the anthems were finished and they were on the pitch warming up. Their was nothing to stop them performing a haka on the pitch as part of their warm up. The problem is that they do not just want to perform a haka but to control the actions of their opponents.

When other countries reacted as they would wish the NZRU went crying to World Rugby about not being respected and World Rugby now force their opponents to alter their pre match routine to suit NZ.

Just have a simple rule. One ritual or anthem per team in a standard order. That ritual or anthem must be respected by both teams. Anything else is unofficial and just part of the warm up and the other team can react as they wish or just ignore it.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Sun 16 Sep 2018, 7:45 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What I would like to know is, if the people of New Zealand demand respect for the Haka, than why isn't any respect given back ?

I remember a few years back, New Zealand were playing Wales, the WRU respected the All Blacks right to perform the Haka, but they asked if they could do it before Wales sang their national anthem, as in Wales we see our anthem as something of pride, the Welsh are re-known for their singing, yet the All Blacks threw a massive hissy fit and said no as it was unfair and disrespectful blah, blah, blah....

We just wanted to sing the anthem in response, we wanted to get geed up for the game as well, but the All Blacks just had a tantrum and performed the haka in the changing room.

So is this it ? The Polynesian teams can perform theirs haka's, but nobody is allowed to respond to them ?

One year we did a stand off, and there was murders over that, apparently we were showing disrespect. The thing is, the haka must give a side performing it at least a tiny percent more motivation, how can it not ?

I would just like to see a team going up against it, being given the respect, and right, to respond how they see fit.

Love it how that story gets deliberately changed. Wales approached NZ on their centenerary to change the order from what had been there for the last century to the anthem last. NZ agreed on that occasion.
Then the next year good old wales decided they wanted  to do the same again. NZ declined.

Pays to get the story right. It was Wales that overstepped the mark in what was a perfectly agreeable understanding initially. Tantrum? Grow up. They politely declined and did it in the changing rooms.
Surely the All Blacks were free to do what they wanted once the anthems were finished and they were on the pitch warming up. Their was nothing to stop them performing a haka on the pitch as part of their warm up. The problem is that they do not just want to perform a haka but to control the actions of their opponents.

When other countries reacted as they would wish the NZRU went crying to World Rugby about not being respected and World Rugby now force their opponents to alter their pre match routine to suit NZ.

Just have a simple rule. One ritual or anthem per team in a standard order. That ritual or anthem must be respected by both teams. Anything else is unofficial and just part of the warm up and the other team can react as they wish or just ignore it.

Well you go talk to world rugby about it then. You want the change. I couldnt give a toss what you want. You keep coming back to fairness and disadvantage so the entire point of the cultural background to the haka is wasted on you.

Cry on soneone elses shoulder. Frankly I think they shouldnt do it in front of ignorants like you and happy to pull it if that cleanses your soul.

We’ll still thrash you anyway be ause the AB success has zero to do with the haka, yet ignorantly, you think its a major advantage. Stupid.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Sun 16 Sep 2018, 7:51 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Tonga are allowed to always perform their pre-match ritual while at the same time WR insist some opponents abandon theirs.
(Puts hand up in air) - Please Sir, why is that not double standards?

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Those girls made a mistake. People make mistakes. Yet you see the one act as representative of all things about the haka. You look for anomalies to reinforce your underlying point which is simply that you dont like it, or dont get it and you see it as an unfair advantage. Well boo hoo. Youve been told why they do it, youve been told its not first and formost to get an advantage. What evidence is there that it benefits Tonga? None.
You try to create a link between the AB version and their success. Well, its purely a fallacy.

Get over it pal, its here to stay. Its done for reasons you have no possible chance of ever understanding, because youre simply a bigot.

I really enjoyed the haka Te Toiroa Tahuriorang's family performed. I also really enjoyed those school hakas that I think you once posted her before.

Even as an outsider to New Zealand, and Maori culture in particular, I can appreciate what is at stake. We all know what family means, however you choose to express it, and I know what it felt like to come of age.

I didn't start this thread so everyone could have a pop at New Zealand. I started it precisely because New Zealanders themselves were beginning to question its place in rugby, and professional sport in general. I haven't heard that before. Consequently, to take this thread into "NZ vs bigots" territory is avoiding the central question of why New Zealanders think the haka might not be appropriate.

Perhaps, but thats not where Aukster was taking it. It was clearly a them vs NZ thing.

My last post was related to Tonga - clearly moving the discussion away from "a them vs NZ thing".

The question remains, does the inequitable treatment that Sports governing bodies afford the haka encourage its overuse?

No, the main question is...why are some peopke so dumb enough to think that the haka is in some way an advantage in terms of the results.

Remove that connection then perhaps you just might be able to understand a little bit about cultural identity.

And its odd talking about culture to peopke from places which seem to be in the history books longer than ours.

Youd think theyd ‘get it’, but alas, no. Seems theyve been around so long theyve lost all sense of what cultural identity really means.

They even tried coming our way to rid ourselves of ours. Well, sorry, its still there. Taunting you it seems as it used to.

Get over it. laughing

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 3:37 am

Taylorman wrote:...And its odd talking about culture to peopke from places which seem to be in the history books longer than ours.

I'll say again, this thread was started precisely because New Zealanders, including some prominent rugby figures, were reported to be questioning the role of the haka in professional sports. If their culture appreciation is not in question, then it seems to me to be an unnecessary sidetrack to harp on about the perceive cultural sensitivity of others.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 9:33 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...And its odd talking about culture to peopke from places which seem to be in the history books longer than ours.

I'll say again, this thread was started precisely because New Zealanders, including some prominent rugby figures, were reported to be questioning the role of the haka in professional sports. If their culture appreciation is not in question, then it seems to me to be an unnecessary sidetrack to harp on about the perceive cultural sensitivity of others.

Im not saying everyone in NZ is on the same wavelength with all this either but at least theyre weighing up the pros and cons having seen both sides.

Here it seems theres a cultural black hole where the very rudimentary basics of knowing how to duscuss things culture is completely absent. Its totally about the few minutes before kick off. Thats it. Thats the sum of the conversation. ABs get to keep fit after the anthem..I mean geez, what a childish approach to what is actually a much deeper conversation. Anyway, nobody seems to get anyones point on this so perhaps we just leave it to those with a say. Though from what Ive seen more would want the haka remain as it is than remove it completely, the only two options available as I see it.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by eirebilly on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 12:47 pm

I have not nor have I ever had anything against the Haka. Some say it is an extra means for the AB's to gain a slight advantage by getting their blood pumping, maybe so but surely it should also be a way for the opposition to get their blood pumping as well?

Not sure why there has to be a counter to it personally, as I would see it as a challenge (and I do see it as a challenge) that should be risen to. That would be enough incentive for me.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 1:16 pm

???? Shocked

Who the hell is the new nutjob talking sense? Despicable behaviour for 606. Ban him before he picks up a cult following.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 5:52 pm

eirebilly wrote:I have not nor have I ever had anything against the Haka. Some say it is an extra means for the AB's to gain a slight advantage by getting their blood pumping, maybe so but surely it should also be a way for the opposition to get their blood pumping as well?

Not sure why there has to be a counter to it personally, as I  would see it as a challenge (and I do see it as a challenge) that should be risen to. That would be enough incentive for me.

Yes its a challenge, but it is also a mark of respect to those hosting them, and the reality is it gives you no physical advantage. As Ive said Ive done it several times before matches and you are left drained. The actions if you watch them are hardly what you do in a warm up but the loud vocals drain the blood out of the head and youre left spinning for a minute or two. Ive seen whole groups lying out exhausted after an intense kapahaka competition here in NZ.

For me that is when the opposition need to attack them, right from the kick off, yet theres all this paranoia which seems to make them feel robbed, or intimidated that they seem to want to tread lightly. If theres an ideal response, getting into them right from the kick off is the perfect one. ABs have often had poor starts and 15 heads spinning after an intense haka is believe me not the best way to start.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 6:05 pm

ebop wrote:What do you mean by overuse?

If you watch the ABs you’d see them do their haka before every test and that’s about it from them. If you see the NZ U20s you’d also see a haka before each game. Same with the 7s and Black Ferns. The 7s usually go a bit crazy and do their haka if they win a tournament as well and you may have a point there. Is it all these haka added up together that annoys you?

The Welsh crowd booed the ABs when they were expecting a haka but didn’t get one. They weren’t aware the ABs had already done their haka to the squad and staff in the dressing room. Do you think the Welsh crowd thought the ABs were dissing them?

Overuse is as mentioned in the article at the top of the thread:
Kees Meeuws said: "It was good a few years ago when they had a choice. But now they play 14 test matches a year and that's too much as far as the haka is concerned. We should either have it at home or just away from home, like it used to be. Not both."
"The late Sir Colin Meads, arguably the greatest ever All Black, slammed the overuse of the haka, saying it diluted the traditional Maori importance as a war dance."

More sides are also using it such as the Ice Blacks, Tall Blacks, White Sox and the NZ Commonwealth games team.

More sides with increasingly tenuous links to the tradition are using it:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-14/haka-and-hopes-as-new-zealand-cricketers-break-with-convention/7089236
and the Ottawa Redblacks mentioned previously

Then there are
The male fencing team of Livingston High School, in Livingston, New Jersey
St. Petersburg High School Swim and Dive Team
The Tahiti national beach soccer team

There seem to be those in NZ who think the proliferation unacceptable:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11723266
US high school football team perform a haka - but is it really appropriate?

The haka doesn’t annoy me in the slightest, it is the disparity with which the sports governing bodies treat teams that needs to be addressed.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 6:07 pm

Taylorman wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Tonga are allowed to always perform their pre-match ritual while at the same time WR insist some opponents abandon theirs.
(Puts hand up in air) - Please Sir, why is that not double standards?

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Those girls made a mistake. People make mistakes. Yet you see the one act as representative of all things about the haka. You look for anomalies to reinforce your underlying point which is simply that you dont like it, or dont get it and you see it as an unfair advantage. Well boo hoo. Youve been told why they do it, youve been told its not first and formost to get an advantage. What evidence is there that it benefits Tonga? None.
You try to create a link between the AB version and their success. Well, its purely a fallacy.

Get over it pal, its here to stay. Its done for reasons you have no possible chance of ever understanding, because youre simply a bigot.

I really enjoyed the haka Te Toiroa Tahuriorang's family performed. I also really enjoyed those school hakas that I think you once posted her before.

Even as an outsider to New Zealand, and Maori culture in particular, I can appreciate what is at stake. We all know what family means, however you choose to express it, and I know what it felt like to come of age.

I didn't start this thread so everyone could have a pop at New Zealand. I started it precisely because New Zealanders themselves were beginning to question its place in rugby, and professional sport in general. I haven't heard that before. Consequently, to take this thread into "NZ vs bigots" territory is avoiding the central question of why New Zealanders think the haka might not be appropriate.

Perhaps, but thats not where Aukster was taking it. It was clearly a them vs NZ thing.

My last post was related to Tonga - clearly moving the discussion away from "a them vs NZ thing".

The question remains, does the inequitable treatment that Sports governing bodies afford the haka encourage its overuse?

No, the main question is...why are some peopke so dumb enough to think that the haka is in some way an advantage in terms of the results.

Remove that connection then perhaps you just might be able to understand a little bit about cultural identity.

And its odd talking about culture to peopke from places which seem to be in the history books longer than ours.

Youd think theyd ‘get it’, but alas, no. Seems theyve been around so long theyve lost all sense of what cultural identity really means.

They even tried coming our way to rid ourselves of ours. Well, sorry, its still there. Taunting you it seems as it used to.

Get over it. laughing
Do you mean people like:
Te Kura Ngata-Aerengamate, the fearsome leader of New Zealand’s haka during the Women’s Rugby World Cup - 'Leading the haka fires me up, it's like an adrenalin rush'
Or the NZ based:
https://www.whakapapafridays.co.nz/single-post/2017/03/31/The-power-of-haka-to-invigorate-your-health
From an athletic standpoint, haka is literally a full body workout that promotes the release of adrenaline into our bloodstream. Adrenaline raises our alertness and it improves circulation by dilating blood vessels, both factors that contribute to improved physical performances. In addition, the mental imagery that a performer holds coupled with the appropriate physical actions primes our neural pathways contributing to improved physical skill and coordination. These benefits are critical to the function of the toa preparing for battle. Beyond these types of benefits, and although a deeply physical practice, there is more to haka than a stomping foot and a protruding tongue.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/72080175/Haka-gives-ABs-more-than-a-psychological-lift
"When used as part of a dynamic warm-up the haka is one, if not the, most effective way for any athlete to be at their peak right at the moment of joining the battle of competition."

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 8:54 pm

A big test for NZ (and other PI teams and those of PI heritage) will be the directive to cover up tattoos during the Japan World Cup so that they do not cause offence. How will this go down in NZ? The tattoos are often linked to Maori culture and tradition. But in Japan tattoos are frowned upon in their culture. Will NZ see this directive as disrespecting their culture and kick up a fuss? Or will they be happy to adopt the culture of another country, respect their culture and cover up?

Tattoos of course are not just common in NZ. In the uk they are extremely common but it is not linked to culture in the same was as it is in NZ. It’s more to do with fashion in countries like the Uk I suppose so can’t see covering up being an issue for them.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:33 pm

Hmmmmm countries to emigrate to?

I'll put Japan on the list of possibles now. Thanks Oracle for the Trivago update. OK

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:40 pm

The Oracle wrote:A big test for NZ (and other PI teams and those of PI heritage) will be the directive to cover up tattoos during the Japan World Cup so that they do not cause offence. How will this go down in NZ? The tattoos are often linked to Maori culture and tradition. But in Japan tattoos are frowned upon in their culture. Will NZ see this directive as disrespecting their culture and kick up a fuss? Or will they be happy to adopt the culture of another country, respect their culture and cover up?

Tattoos of course are not just common in NZ. In the uk they are extremely common but it is not linked to culture in the same was as it is in NZ. It’s more to do with fashion in countries like the Uk I suppose so can’t see covering up being an issue for them.


To be clear theres no ban on tattoos ...just a note been sent to teams suggesting that they wear rash guards or vests in communal pools and gyms to avoid any issues.

The New Zealand All Blacks have confirmed that their players - many of whom sport full or half-sleeve tattoos - will comply.

"When any of our teams tour we endeavour to be respectful of the local customs and culture, and this will be no different when we visit Japan both this year and next year,"


Its not a big deal.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:50 pm

Isn't it nice that 'local customs' are even being mentioned in respectful terms in this present world where it seems all cultures must comply with a common 'correct' culture-norm-classificaion of uniform dogmatic 'diversity'.

I guess when the time comes closer though, Japan will get it in the neck from the Global media police about their archaic and 'disrespectful' customs.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 5:09 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Its not a big deal.
Actually, it is. Usually, Japan has to deal with no more than one visiting rugby team or, at most, two, as they will again shortly, when the dead rubber Bledisloe is held in Yokohama. It's a small number of people to manage in public.

With so many visiting teams during the World Cup, you need to use more gyms, and swimming pools, and there'll probably more contact with local schools. That's a lot of tattoos to keep under control.

Alan Gilpin of World Rugby said something daft about making sure locals don't confuse rugby people with yakuza (gangsters). No-one in their right mind in Japan would think a tattooed rugby player is a gangster. There are two issues at stake.

1. Some Japanese consider tattoos to be antisocial. In the West, some people regard foul language in public as antisocial. It might upset auntie, and you'd rather not have someone f-ing and blinding in front of your children. That's the same way some Japanese react to seeing public displays of tattoos. The mood is definitely changing, but there are still enough people who feel that way for society to want to show them consideration.

2. Gangsters do often have tattoos, and use them to intimidate people by showing their affiliation. Public facilities like gyms, swimmimg pools and saunas have tattoo bans because they want to keep gangsters out. If they start letting tattooed foreigners in, even famous ones, then the rationale for banning gangsters falls apart. Covering up is a compromise.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 6:03 pm

You could say that world rugby and their directives, the teams and fans that choose to cover up are doing so out of respect for their hosts, and what a lovely gesture it is and will be.

But then some clever d*ck will pull out the ‘diversity’ card and will complain about Japan’s lack of tolerance and diversity to tattoos, and their human rights, and will kick up a fuss with the World Court of Social Justice (TM) and Japan will be forced to cave in (and bow, literally) to the tattooed masses invading their shores. In fact, if you DON’T have a tattoo when you arrive you’ll probably be contravening some court order and will be executed at the airport by a samurai sword strike which takes your head clean off. Or is it offensive to Japanese culture to talk about Samurai swords? Or offensive to avoid talking about them because that is suppressing their culture?! Help! It’s PC overload and I don’t know which way to turn! Sad

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 6:11 pm

Laugh


Good day on 606. It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Great Aukster on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 8:14 am

Gooseberry wrote:
The Oracle wrote:A big test for NZ (and other PI teams and those of PI heritage) will be the directive to cover up tattoos during the Japan World Cup so that they do not cause offence. How will this go down in NZ? The tattoos are often linked to Maori culture and tradition. But in Japan tattoos are frowned upon in their culture. Will NZ see this directive as disrespecting their culture and kick up a fuss? Or will they be happy to adopt the culture of another country, respect their culture and cover up?

Tattoos of course are not just common in NZ. In the uk they are extremely common but it is not linked to culture in the same was as it is in NZ. It’s more to do with fashion in countries like the Uk I suppose so can’t see covering up being an issue for them.


To be clear theres no ban on tattoos ...just a note been sent to teams suggesting that they wear rash guards or vests in communal pools and gyms to avoid any issues.

The New Zealand All Blacks have confirmed that their players - many of whom sport full or half-sleeve tattoos - will comply.

"When any of our teams tour we endeavour to be respectful of the local customs and culture, and this will be no different when we visit Japan both this year and next year,"


Its not a big deal.

Aren't tattoos just as much part of Maori culture as the haka? So will TJ have to cover up his body art when leading the haka warm-up in the most public showcase to the RWC final?

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Oracle on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 10:33 am

Aukster, yep that was my point above. For teams like Wales where the tats are to do with fashion it shouldn’t be a problem. But I can see both sides of the argument for sides like NZ and Samoa where the tats are often cultural. Whose culture do we respect on this one?! The hosts or the visitors?!
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 11:03 am

It’s all about $ and perception for WR. They want the first RWC in a tier 2 rugby playing nation to be a success and don’t want the game played by ‘gangsters’. Pretty odd to be fair but are WR over cooking it? Maybe if the ABs cover their cultural tattoos they can be afforded the opportunity to do their haka after the anthem without any crybabies having a sook as a quid pro quo.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by TJ on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 11:52 am

On cultural (mis) appropriation - Nonu who is incredibly protective and sensitive about his "culture" is a offender! He wears a sort of dreadlock ( they are not quite right - he is not afro carribean, he is not a rasta. He has taken a cultural symbol of another peoiple and used it asa fashoin statement.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 12:22 pm

Actually, the worst of the worst offenders of cultural appropriation of the worst kind are are British rugby players that live in crappy places where it rains for 8-9 months of the year and have tanned or orange skin. This is the ultimate no-no. It’s embarrassing and it has to stop! WR need to ban sun bed and fake tan use by British rugby players in Japan because it is offensive.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by TJ on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 12:26 pm

Very Happy

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 12:28 pm

No-one is talking about covering tattoos during matches.

The advice is for when players are going into local gyms, saunas and swimming pools. My bet is that a lot of these venues will ask their other guests to give some leeway to players but World Rugby wants the players to take the initiative too.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Cyril on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 1:16 pm

The mullets sported by most NZ and Aussie players are more offensive than the tattoos. Having said that, tattoos are for sailors and chavs.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by ebop on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 1:28 pm

You got a point about the mullets there Cyril. I know for sure some ABs are sprouting mullets and it’s clear appropriation of Irish culture.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Cyril on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 1:38 pm

Indeed. The Irish might not have done a lot for this world but they did invent the mullet. A multitude of NZ players and coaches swapped for a dodgy haircut. Hope NZ kept their receipt.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 23 Sep 2018, 12:31 am

A kiwi and Brit talking about cultural appropriation. The irony

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Taylorman on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:56 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:A kiwi and Brit talking about cultural appropriation. The irony

Be good to know what typifies English culture in this day and age. Especially when the spent centureis trying to strip others of theirs. Youd think theyd have picked up some tips rather than buy up whole towns with a half a blanket and a flagon of some good ol english ale.

Nearest ive seen to culture is the monotone drone of what seems like an old porgy and bess cover from down there louisiana way.

Gotta more than that surely?

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by TJ on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 6:30 am

Britain / England are not synonyms

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 9:43 am

They are to 99% of the World's population. True cultural appropriation.

"I'm from Wales."
"Wales? Where the hell is that?"
"Britain. I'm British."
"Oh right, I get it. You're English right? Is Wales a nice city?"

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 9:50 am

The tourist shop opposite Cardiff Castle sells loads of Harry Potter tat, you dont hear us moaning about that.

Any sensible English fellow on his night out in Glasgow would cover up his St Georges flag tattoo though, theres quite a few drunks who get "cultutraly insesnitive" at times.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 9:58 am

Where does Harry Potter come from?  I truly don't know - not a trick question.  Just don't get that Cardiff Castle bit Gooseberry

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 10:03 am

The Brits don't appropriate culture (unless you're talking Roman, Nordic, Angle, Saxon & French) - but they did used to donate it (you're all very welcome). That job has now be taken over by the yanks of course. We gave the kiwis ours but they didn't like it so they went Maori instead. Which is nice. But no need to make a song and dance about it.
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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 10:03 am

SecretFly wrote:Where does Harry Potter come from?  I truly don't know - not a trick question.  Just don't get that Cardiff Castle bit Gooseberry

Not Wales.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 10:12 am

Are you Welsh, Goose?

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 10:13 am

Oh forget it. I get it now Cool I'm slow this morning. (Only this morning, fly??)

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 12:59 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The Brits don't appropriate culture (unless you're talking Roman, Nordic, Angle, Saxon & French) - but they did used to donate it (you're all very welcome). That job has now be taken over by the yanks of course. We gave the kiwis ours but they didn't like it so they went Maori instead. Which is nice. But no need to make a song and dance about it.

Haven't the Yanks appropriated the song and dance routine from the haka and turned it into cheerleading?

https://www.thesportster.com/football/ranking-every-nfl-teams-cheerleading-squad/

World Rugby could appropriate some of the fairness culture shown by IFAF in treating their teams equally...


Last edited by The Great Aukster on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:03 pm

I'd prefer a StripLeading thing but I could never get my idea past the Silly Proposal WasteBin at Pro14 headquarters

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:I'd prefer a StripLeading thing but I could never get my idea past the Silly Proposal WasteBin at Pro14 headquarters

Do they get a new strip every year?

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:19 pm

Don't get dirty now, Aukster! Everyone's shaving style is their own business.

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

Post by TJ on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:52 pm

I still think the scots should have a riposte to the Haka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaJSGky4F4U

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Re: To haka or not to haka (again)

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