England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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Post by alfie on Sun 12 Aug 2018, 12:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

Off goes Rahul...at least he doesn't waste a review ! That was stone dead.
Jimmy on course for ten ?

Rahane in next as Kohli was off the field too long...

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 3:54 pm

Pandya 5-25 in less than 5 overs. Christ.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 3:55 pm

Will England follow-on? They need two more runs with one wicket left on 128 for 9. A maiden 5 wicket haul for Hardik Pandya.
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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 3:57 pm

Superb spell by the Indian 'all rounder' but woeful battibg

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 3:59 pm

The follow on is avoided! #advantageengland

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:00 pm

Leading edge from Buttler that just loops over mid-off fielder and they scamper two runs and avoid the follow-on.


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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:01 pm

Back us to bowl them out inside a session

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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:01 pm

As collapses go , this is up with the best ..or down with the worst , if you like Smile

I did flag before the game that four batsmen plus a host of all rounders just doesn't work for long...especially when the four batsmen aren't all that...

Follow on saved , at least. Buttler can have a swing and try and add a few ; but this match is all over ... Just a question of when it ends.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:02 pm

Decent slogging by Buttler

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:04 pm

alfie wrote:Just a question of when it ends.

Some time on Tuesday I would guess.
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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:07 pm

Has been dreadful batting. Good bowling conditions ; but Pandya 5/25 ? Seriously ?

I'm not staying up to watch but good luck bowling them out for 85 after tea , chaps Smile

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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:11 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
alfie wrote:Just a question of when it ends.

Some time on Tuesday I would guess.

Maybe earlier if conditions remain similar.  Not many on either side capable of batting against a ball that does something...

Some spirited hitting from Buttler to reduce the deficit .  But I doubt we will have a repeat of the Root/Anderson last wicket stand here on the previous Indian tour Smile

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:25 pm

England bowled out for 161. India test to lose.
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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:26 pm

Buttler slogged a few which makes India needs to get at least 150-180 to be in with a victory chance

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:34 pm

Simple for India then. Get the lead over 300 and win the game.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:36 pm

Third time in two years that England have lost all 10 wickets in a session.

Surely Ramprakash’s place as batting coach needs to come under review
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:45 pm

India have a lead of 168 and that could already be a challenging target. Targets of 200+ are always tricky to chase down in a 4th innings but with England's current batting malaise it becomes impossible.
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Post by msp83 on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 4:49 pm

So significant first innings lead for India. The batsmen will have to show the same discipline they showed in the first innings to drive this home. But conditions are tougher in comparison.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 5:32 pm

India 56/0 off 10 overs. Rahul enjoying himself

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 5:32 pm

This one is over folks
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 5:40 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:This one is over folks

We all thought that about the first test, too, Oliver!

And look how England came back from the brink.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 6:06 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:This one is over folks

We all thought that about the first test, too, Oliver!

And look how England came back from the brink.

That was nowhere near the extent of this is. Even if England got all nine wickets on the bounce India already have 259 on the board. It takes real good batting sides to even get close to chasing down that target and that is not England.
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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 6:18 pm

Cook drops another dolly. His eyes have gone.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 6:19 pm

Root's a really inept captain. If Bairstow wasn't keeper, he'd be the best choice as skipper.

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 6:50 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Root's a really inept captain. If Bairstow wasn't keeper, he'd be the best choice as skipper.

For the last two test match he was the best captain and now he is inept. Support your captain.
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Post by msp83 on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 7:51 pm

So well, still trying to convince myself that all that happened today has indeed happened. The morning was disappointing with India losing 4-22, a result I did see coming though somewhere in there, I was hoping Pant or Ashwin would have a bit of surprise for us. Then England openers got a 50 partnership, and Cook, that purpetual thorn in the flesh was looking good. Then 2 wickets in 2 balls including Cook gave me hope that England would not run away with it. Had to go out a bit then, and came back to see a scoreboard of England 150-9 with Hardik Pandya of all people, taking 5 wickets in 5 overs!!
And then again some application and confidence from the Indian batsmen, and India lead by 292 with 8 2nd innings wickets remaining.
There still is a lot of time in the test, and if the overhead conditions change and the sun comes out for a long period, batting would become easier. Even in India's eventually series winning effort way back in 2007 on this same ground, Michael Vaughan nearly looked like taking his side to safety before Zaheer Khan inflicted decisive blows. So the Indian batsmen should stay focused, show the same kind of application and don't give away their wickets, like Pujara, Rahane and Kohli did in the first innings and Dhawan did in the 2nd.

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Post by VTR on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 8:58 pm

Indian fans don't need to worry about this one. I know you go through all the what ifs as a supporter, but England will be lucky to muster 250 second time round. Fair play to India for turning it round here, they have been all over England from the moment Root made a rash call at the toss

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 10:08 pm

--Well in a complete turnaround ....as India is in complete control of the game....and this is the type of improvement the fans expected of them after T1......and T2 appeared an aberration

--the pitch wasn't easy...but rather India batted well.....very well actually and those innings of Rahane and Kohli were worth twice in the context of pitch

--Rahul and Pujara are playing themselves back into form in second innings......and the icing on the cake would be if Pandya cracks a run a ball 50...and he would have a good chance of doing so.....because by the time he comes out to bat tomm, Eng would be down on the mat

--45min of pre-lunch off-radar bowling apart....India found lenght, direction, speed and its no mean feat to bowl Eng out in a session inpsite of many dropped catches, no Ashwin and lopsided captiancy after fall of 9th wicket.......
This is the type of bowling that was needed in T2 to keep us in the game and was missing, because we lacked a 4th seamer

--and I am so glad Pandya delivered on potential with the ball...he's not juts your medium pace change bowler....he comes in at 87mph...and can be handful

Hope ashin can bowl.....and more importantly his Hip muscle pull is not serious enuf to keep him out of T4

all in all a very satisfying two days of test cricket at the end of which its 100-0 in India's favor Very Happy
Let them close it out efficiently from here
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Post by alfie on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 1:18 am

Not surprised to see India running away with the bat second time around ...after being sent back into the field barely two hours after they'd bowled India out once I'm surprised the bowlers didn't decide to go on strike...

By any standards , that collapse was appalling. Not unique , I'm afraid - but it demonstrates once again the make up of England's team is seriously wrong. They get away with it fairly often ; but when it starts to go bad...it goes downhill fast.

This Test is lost. Fortunately they have a few days break to rest the bowlers (any notion of "rotating" main bowlers has gone out the window now) and considering what if anything they can do to shore up the batting ; but there is now a real danger that the supposedly impregnable 2-nil lead will disappear completely. An indictment on the coaching , selection and of course the playing group.

Once I heard Joe Root even discussing the chances of a 5 nil win I feared the worst. Now confirmed.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 6:50 am

There's so many changes needed in this England side, and that was still the case when we were winning, that it's hard to know what to do. 

Stokes isn't a 6, and he's gonna keep his place on reputation really because Curran should be playing on form. 

The openers are really looking out of place. Got to be looking at form against the swinging ball. Jennings deserves time but I'm not holding out a lot of hope. Cook looks done against anything he needs to move feet for. Little but full and moving and he's dead. 

Has Jennings learned or improved from what got him dropped in the past?

Buttler plays like that for a cameo to look good, but I'm not sure he's a luxury to be carried. If it means Stokes at 6, then he certainly isn't. 

Root would go to 4, but who can handle playing 3? I do think Stoneman could have done a job there, but it would have been in the context of "holding an end and 30 isn't a bad score" which doesn't really scream "high expectations."

Does Mo need to come back in for Rashid, just to secure an extra batsman? I do think his batting has been harshly forgotten by England based on one bad spell, and even then I think he was mainly dropped because of bowling. Do his qualities as a bat actually deserve a place as a batsman?


Bowling setup got stick in Australia, and there is minor surgery to do there to make it its most effective, but the batting is the issue. 

I don't think the coaching is right, be it Bayliss or Ramps, but I don't think the talent pool is deep. 

Who should be waiting in the wings? Arguably you want

Someone New
Jennings/Someone New
Someone New
Root
Pope
Bairstow
Stokes/Curran
Woakes (at home)
Rashid/Ali
Broad
Anderson

I would presume Vince is done (still think he's a better "luxury" player than Buttler, mind you), Malan probably lost on home shores for awhile, Ali doesn't really seem to be considered (good OD form though).
EDIT: Best put context to this as it has driven Olly insane - I'm not sure he's an overall better player (and a test hundred for Buttler probably balances me back over to Buttler!) but I found the pick a bit difficult to understand as the side balance couldn't carry a luxury in Vince, yet they took in Buttler at 7 as a possible luxury. Would Buttler at 3 perform like Vince? Is the team balance good enough at the moment to have a player who is more known for quick runs or the counter attack? This considering that it seems most batsmen in this team might need to be batting a position lower?

Numbers wise, Burns, Abell, Clarke (who appears to be a small child), Foakes all seem to have something behind them. Probably not gonna be very wise to start 1, 2, 3 with three inexperienced players.


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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 8:04 am

In home series, England have invariably have a stinker of a Test. This summer they've had two - here at Nottingham and at Lord's v Pakistan.
This Test is lost for England. But at home England are often at their best having performed poorly in the previous Test. So I'm taking them - not with much certainty - to bounce back at Southampton.
From a neutral standpoint, an India win here ignites the series that seemed dead after Lord's. This is a very weak England team in which one of the few outstanding batsman - Cook - is not making good scores. England lost around 50 Test centuries when KP, Trott and Bell all disappeared. Strauss has never been replaced.
Some talk in posts above of a recall for Ali who has scored five Test 100s. I can think of worse decisions.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 8:51 am

It will be bad for English cricket if England were to win this series. It will tell TPTB that everything is going along fine when, of course, it isn't. Really, England should be at least 2-1 down in this series after this test, and if someone other than Kohli in the Indian team had bothered to play cricket, it would have been.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 9:41 am

Duty281 wrote:It will be bad for English cricket if England were to win this series. It will tell TPTB that everything is going along fine when, of course, it isn't. Really, England should be at least 2-1 down in this series after this test, and if someone other than Kohli in the Indian team had bothered to play cricket, it would have been.

Eng has the same problem now that India had for many years....i.e creating designer pitches to support home seam bowlers
Only to be found wanting when they go abroad

Even at home as Cook declines and Root doesn't score as consistently.....and Moeen ain't around for lower order recoveries.....they are losing home tests also...
Lost to NZ.....Drew the series with Pak.....lost to WI a test.....and won closely fought vs SA, that's when Root & Cokk both got runs

The fix would be if they make pitches that do not favor seamers so much but rather more sporting ones i.e bit dry, bit for seamers who can bend their backs ....and encourage bowlers who can dig it in.

Its hard to judge young batmen like Oli & Jennings on ultra-seaming pitches like these
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Post by VTR on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 10:02 am

I'd be concerned in the wider sense that Test cricket really is becoming a poor product. Yes it's exciting to see flurries of wickets, but most teams now go down without a fight now when they get behind in a match. Edgbaston was a rare genuinely good match, though still featured some terrible batting from both sides

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 10:40 am

VTR wrote:I'd be concerned in the wider sense that Test cricket really is becoming a poor product. Yes it's exciting to see flurries of wickets, but most teams now go down without a fight now when they get behind in a match.

This is my major concern about Test cricket at the moment.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 10:51 am

One thing I have been asking for for a long time is to get rid of toss

If making the pitch be home team's prerogative.....the choice of batting or fielding first should be with the visiting captain
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Post by alfie on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:03 am

sirfredperry wrote:In home series, England have invariably have a stinker of a Test. This summer they've had two - here at Nottingham and at Lord's v Pakistan.
  This Test is lost for England. But at home England are often at their best having performed poorly in the previous Test. So I'm taking them - not with much certainty - to bounce back at Southampton.
  From a neutral standpoint, an India win here ignites the series that seemed dead after Lord's. This is a very weak England team in which one of the few outstanding batsman - Cook - is not making good scores. England lost around 50 Test centuries when KP, Trott and Bell all disappeared. Strauss has never been replaced.
  Some talk in posts above of a recall for Ali who has scored five Test 100s. I can think of worse decisions.
 

Think you have a point there , Sir Fred.  Chances of a bounce back are probably quite good.  But - while it may be good for the "excitement" factor - this constant oscillation from dominant to supine for no apparent reason is getting a bit wearing...

Moeen may well have more to offer yet. Trouble is he is not really any more likely to solve England's real batting problem ...which is : filling places 1-5 . As you say , Trott , Bell and Pietersen are all still missed - as is Strauss. I don't have a solution. But if I were chairman of selectors I'd be looking for one. Seems to me Smith has turned a blind eye to the important issues in favour of playing hunches...

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Post by VTR on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:06 am

I could see that coming in, it has been trialled in county cricket, though the downside it could result in even more roads, which are actually worse Tests to watch than in bowling friendly conditions. Still, I think they will at least try it, plus four day and day/night Tests becoming more common

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Post by alfie on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:15 am

KP_fan wrote:One thing I have been asking for for a long time is to get rid of toss

If making the  pitch be home team's prerogative.....the choice of batting or fielding first should be with the visiting captain

I think that argument is overdone. Much of the time toss makes little difference as conditions change dramatically with the weather : in this match both teams got what they said they wanted at the start anyway.
Yeah sometimes home teams might "influence" pitch preparation ; but I suspect a lot less than is alleged. Most of the time climate and soil dictate what is served up ...and no matter who bats first the home team will generally have an advantage purely from familiarity.

I'm fine with that anyway : half the fun in Test Cricket is seeing how England can adapt to playing in India - or Australia in England ...or any other team on its travels. Home advantage is part of the game and if it didn't exist we might as well play on synthetic pitches . Boring.
So is the toss - part of the game , that is. More important is arranging for touring teams to get proper warm up games before the Tests - but that's another story...

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Post by alfie on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:30 am

Since the match has still to be played out I suppose we should try and think about the likely progress from here.

Three days to go so India can take their time amassing a huge lead : what do thy want , I wonder ? Bat all day and the lead should be north of 550 , with two days to bowl...should be fairly weather proof.

England would be hoping , I guess , to somehow dismiss them for rather less...perhaps 280 odd , leaving a 450 target with bags of time to get them...good luck with that plan Smile
But you have to have something to aim for.

I fear we are not in for riveting viewing...more an inexorable procession towards the result we all know in advance. Guess you can't have Tests like Edgbaston every week...

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:36 am

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:One thing I have been asking for for a long time is to get rid of toss

If making the  pitch be home team's prerogative.....the choice of batting or fielding first should be with the visiting captain

I think that argument is overdone.  Much of the time toss makes little difference as conditions change dramatically with the weather : in this match both teams got what they said they wanted at the start anyway.
Yeah sometimes home teams might "influence" pitch preparation ; but I suspect a lot less than is alleged. Most of the time climate and soil dictate what is served up ...and no matter who bats first the home team will generally have an advantage purely from familiarity.

I'm fine with that anyway : half the fun in Test Cricket is seeing how England can adapt to playing in India - or Australia in England ...or any other team on its travels.  Home advantage is part of the game and if it didn't exist we might as well play on synthetic pitches . Boring.
So is the toss - part of the game , that is.  More important is arranging for touring teams to get proper warm up games before the Tests  - but that's another story...

Sorry but I think on designer pitches......where there visiting side is already fighting a battle against many odds......losing a toss in Galle or on Lords pitch of last test can be a kock out blow
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:43 am

The problem with Moeen is that he hasnt shown anything to suggest a return to form or confidence with bat or ball. England may well be reduced to having to select their bowlers based on batting ability,. and players getting spots not on the basis of how well they are playing but on the failings of others. That doesnt make it the right decision. Its how we ended up with Stokes jumping straight back in the team.
I can see why its been asked for though, Rashid is barely getting used and not doing much when he is in unhelpful conditions. Thing is hes just not very good as a batsman or bowler, and mentaly fragile. Despite a couple of great series his overall record, espeially away ( which is Englands real problem) is pretty awful.
Moeen will almost certainly have a spot in the Sri Lanka team though. Its hard to see how else England will balance out a side needing at least two spinners.



Rather than mucking about with the allrounders Englands biggest concern has to be the top 6. Theres only three proven test class batsmen. And of them Cook seems to be in terminal decline, the two double centuries and 180 for the Lions suggest he still has something in him ...but his highest score this year is 70 and hes rarely passed 40 in the last two years. So really England are reliant on Root, whois playing a place too high, and Bairstow who's also keeping.
I support the notion of Foakes coming in as Englands best gloveman to reduce the demands on Bairstow, but hes made it clear he prefers being asked to keep and have the pressure taken off his batting by making it his secondary role. Something has to give though.
Burns and/or Gubbins need to get a chance. The churn on top 3 bats has been horrendous, but once again we are reaching the point of "must try something". At leats get a player in whos in form and has confidence. Both Cook and Jennings look under pressure and scratchy, and Roots regulalry getting exposed far too early.

The Buttler experiment has yet to come off. Its the second time theyve tried it and whilst there was some early promise in the summer he just isnt adding anything to the team. The danger of test struggles affecting his limited overs form should be considered too, especially if he feels he has to start changing the way he bats significantly. A pure batsman at 7 is a luxury, and suggests that the top 6 are all in their places on merit. They arent. Stokes is a test 7. Bairstows more comfortable at 6, Cook at 4. Jennings like Stoneman before him isnt good enough, Cooks good days are increasingly rare, and the raw Pope is two places too high.





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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:52 am

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:One thing I have been asking for for a long time is to get rid of toss

If making the  pitch be home team's prerogative.....the choice of batting or fielding first should be with the visiting captain

I think that argument is overdone.  Much of the time toss makes little difference as conditions change dramatically with the weather : in this match both teams got what they said they wanted at the start anyway.
Yeah sometimes home teams might "influence" pitch preparation ; but I suspect a lot less than is alleged. Most of the time climate and soil dictate what is served up ...and no matter who bats first the home team will generally have an advantage purely from familiarity.

I'm fine with that anyway : half the fun in Test Cricket is seeing how England can adapt to playing in India - or Australia in England ...or any other team on its travels.  Home advantage is part of the game and if it didn't exist we might as well play on synthetic pitches . Boring.
So is the toss - part of the game , that is.  More important is arranging for touring teams to get proper warm up games before the Tests  - but that's another story...


I agree to some extent Alfie. These are not really designer pitches, the amount of movemnent in England is massively infleunced by the weather conditions. Lords is ussualy a road with no movement at all when the suns out, then help for spinners at the end. Had that test been played in July India wouldve been right in their element.
The Dukes ball also makes a massive difference. It really should be used world over, unlike the Kookbura the seam doesnt flatten out after 20 overs and its much easier to move throughout its life regardless of the pitch.
Englad stuffed themselves by an over aggresive approach relying too heavily on the new ball getting through Kohli before lunch, and havent little faith (quite fairly) in their own batsmen. Its backfired horridly and if anything theyve copped for the worst of the conditions. They absolutely lucked out with how the weather fell in test 2, but this time they knowingly put themselves in a bad position.

That said Im not averse to the idea of scrapping the toss, there does need to be something done to encourage sporting pitches though.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 12:00 pm

I hope Biarstow has not broken something in a way that makes him indisposed him for T4
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 12:02 pm

That looks like it couldbe Bairstow’s summer done...
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 12:10 pm

Could be a very important day in the context of the series.

India pile on the runs, tiring out the English bowlers and getting a mental edge over them, and Bairstow's series could well be over, weakening England's batting ever further.

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Post by alfie on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 12:51 pm

Bad to worse for England. Only a few players actually performing consistently , and now one of them is down injured...

At least it offers some belated justification for having Buttler in the side. And perhaps he won't drop so many with the gloves on Smile

Suppose one possible gain is that if YJB misses the next match , Smith will have to actually pick a batsman for number four . Or three. Instead of shuffling players out of their best positions and hoping...
You never know ; they might pick one that succeeds !

But they'll probably recall Vince. Or move Stokes to five ...


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Post by Duty281 on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 1:15 pm

I suppose India will declare this evening, giving themselves an hour or so at England, when the lead is up past the 500 mark?

Personally, if I were Kohli, I'd try and keep England in the field until tomorrow afternoon, and properly grind them down.

Anyway, the lead is up to 362.

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Post by VTR on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 1:22 pm

The idea of Stokes at 5 is terrifying. He was actually starting to look like a 6 this time last year but has clearly regressed due to lack of cricket. Needs to be at 7 as suggested, but this is Smith so he will probably recall Morgan to bat at 8 or something ridiculous

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 1:38 pm

Last time Ind when in Eng..... drew first test, won second test and then broke down so badly in T3 that they lots series 3-1

Now India need to continue grinding them into the ground....and this is a psychological turning point for the series.

Bat 50 overs...ensure that Pandya gets a bat and gets to.....score a few runs.....even a not-out 30 will be good for his confidence

& then stick them in for 10 overs today and bowl them out by lunch tomm......
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 2:54 pm

Oh god Bairstow down is a huge loss for England whichever way you cut it. If they do give Buttler the gloves though then as mentioned above it solves how to get another batsman blooded, and you'd hope a genuine top order player at 3. But in the short term loses one of only two batsmen who have been performing to anything like a good level in recent times.
The amount they've bowled in this test then one of Broad or Anderson will probably be rotated out for the next. That might actually strengthen the batting depth a bit (presumably Curran comes back in?) ...and Moeen for Rashid further, but still a team drearily short on quality and form.

As for India, they are showing and ruthless side here and will want to drag this out as long as possible. Its not just the mental toll on Englands confidence but also the physical one on the seamers.


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