The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

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South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:25 pm

2 English clubs. Bath and saracens.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Oracle on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:27 pm

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

See my figures above. If the unions all invested the same % into the pro sides then you’d have a point. But  remember the regions are separate from the union in Wales (apart from the Dragons to a certain extent). The WRU could have a revenue of £200m. It wouldn’t necessarily mean that the regions would have a bigger budget.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Oracle on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:2 English clubs. Bath and saracens.

You really need to use the quote function 7.5! I’ve no idea who your sentence is aimed at?!
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:36 pm

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I reckon that England, NZ and Wales are the top three highest union turnovers.  How profitable they are is a separate question.

All unions don’t get the same income from 6N and PRO12.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:50 pm

Use the mobile version of the site oracle and for whatever reason it's not an option. And most times I'm just to lazy to type a name. Aimed at tj with several clubs breaking the cap, it was just the 2.

I suppose if you go into the deeper past Leicester were once done.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 8:16 am

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I'm afraid this is bollix mate. Look at the prices of some of Leinster's season tickets compared to other teams in the league. Leinster has a higher GDP than all of Wales.

They also have the benefit of massive 'cultural' tax breaks.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 9:31 am

munkian wrote:
TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I'm afraid this is bollix mate. Look at the prices of some of Leinster's season tickets compared to other teams in the league. Leinster has a higher GDP than all of Wales.

They also have the benefit of massive 'cultural' tax breaks.

What tax breaks are those?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Brendan on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 10:11 am

munkian wrote:
TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I'm afraid this is bollix mate. Look at the prices of some of Leinster's season tickets compared to other teams in the league. Leinster has a higher GDP than all of Wales.

They also have the benefit of massive 'cultural' tax breaks.

So what is your view on what teams in the Pro14 should spend all this extra cash on if there was a salary cap.

As you used Leinster as an example what do we do about all these unfair adatages that they have so that they can be less good.
1. Best academy in league due to the level of competition at second level schooling meaning they need to develop better to just get a spot.
2. Top 2 supported teams in the league meaning their 16th man can better influence refs and also intimidate visiting teams
3. That rugby is played and watched mainly by rich people and that the team covers an area with lots of rich people who love and are involved in Rugby
4. That they have use of a bigger stadium (but not their home) that they fill because they have more fans
5. That they have players who want to be able to visit their Mammy and so don't want to leave
6. That they have too many internationals though they were developed as Pro14 filler players (those rotation knock offs that no one wants to see) who become internationals (except Mr Ryan they have no excuse for him)
7. That they create to much money compared to the other teams so have more money for wages

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Brendan on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 10:13 am

I am all for salary restrictions (%Of income) but not caps as it may reward on field but not when you talk about off field management, it then rewards poor management and penalised good management

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 11:29 am

Brendan wrote:

As you used Leinster as an example what do we do about all these unfair adatages that they have so that they can be less good.
1. Best academy in league due to the level of competition at second level schooling meaning they need to develop better to just get a spot.
2. Top 2 supported teams in the league meaning their 16th man can better influence refs and also intimidate visiting teams
3. That rugby is played and watched mainly by rich people and that the team covers an area with lots of rich people who love and are involved in Rugby
4. That they have use of a bigger stadium (but not their home) that they fill because they have more fans
5. That they have players who want to be able to visit their Mammy and so don't want to leave
6. That they have too many internationals though they were developed as Pro14 filler players (those rotation knock offs that no one wants to see) who become internationals (except Mr Ryan they have no excuse for him)
7. That they create to much money compared to the other teams so have more money for wages

I think, working from that list, that the strategic decision by Pro14 heads would be to just ban Mammies - and the level playing field would arrive instantly?

Also, do away with 'cultural' tax breaks, enforce Communism on Ireland... send Leinster lads to the gulags in Leitrim and give their green replacements from the labour camps of .... em Leitrim ... some gruel - with eyes in it - once a week for sustenance during the entire playing season.

That MIGHT help..... but I only say 'Might'......

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 11:45 am

SecretFly wrote:

I think, working from that list, that the strategic decision by Pro14 heads would be to just ban Mammies - and the level playing field would arrive instantly?

Nothing as intimidating as an Irish mammy



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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Cyril on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 2:41 pm

That bit about Leinster fans loving rugby is a bit overstated. Its mostly they love ‘been seen’ at the rugby. It’s like a low rent version of Made in Chelsea and hardly a hardcore rugby experience. Still, they don’t boo as much as Ulster or Munster fans. That would be far too common.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 2:49 pm

What is 'hardcore'?  

The common man who works in the chipshop bullshyte, who might spit on the guy in front of him out of a misdirected but lovingly wholesome hardcore love of rugby?  
De common man fan and de common, self-made rag-and-bone dodgy chancer cum billionaire owner..... ahhhhh...............  it's sooooo romantik. heart heart heart

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Cyril on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 5:58 pm

There’s nowt worse than Nouveau Riche!

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Brendan on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 5:59 pm

Cyril wrote:That bit about Leinster fans loving rugby is a bit overstated. Its mostly they love ‘been seen’ at the rugby. It’s like a low rent version of Made in Chelsea and hardly a hardcore rugby experience. Still, they don’t boo as much as Ulster or Munster fans. That would be far too common.

The other three provinces have to many common people so they Boo and all that. Leinster just look down their nose at the other team

On a serious note Leinster don't fill their stadium because everyone things that have to be seen there. Yes there are a few like everywhere and more so for the Aviva games but the RDS is passionate and the true fans

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 6:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:What is 'hardcore'?  

The common man who works in the chipshop bullshyte, who might spit on the guy in front of him out of a misdirected but lovingly wholesome hardcore love of rugby?  
De common man fan and de common, self-made rag-and-bone dodgy chancer cum billionaire owner..... ahhhhh...............  it's sooooo romantik. heart heart heart
Cyril is still obsessed with the Jackson/Olding case so maybe it has something to do with that? Be careful about asking though as he might start on about moral immorality...

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 10:06 am

Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !

As for going to the rugby to "be seen" rather than to watch the game surely the natural home for that is Twickenham ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 10:28 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !


That's not a tutting sound, it's the colelctive clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by TJ on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 10:34 am

All unions run the pro 14 clubs. all unions have very similar income streams. Its not the pro 14s issue if ( and I am 100% certain this is not so) that any one countyries teams are disadvataged financially - its the union.

We have been over the scarce numbers we have time and time again and there is no huge disparity in incomes for the clubs. You can make it look like there is by comparing apples to oranges. For example we know the players budget for the welsh teams but for the scots we only know the total costs. If you look into the figures the actual money available for players is very similar.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 10:35 am

TJ wrote:All unions run the pro 14 clubs.  


Say what now?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by SecretFly on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 12:03 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !


That's not a tutting sound, it's the colelctive clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets.

It's not the collective clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets sound, it's the thumping of shoulder-hung overstarched pink jumper sleeves sound...

NEXT!

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 4:06 pm

TJ wrote:All unions run the pro 14 clubs.  all unions have very similar income streams.  Its not the pro 14s issue if ( and I am 100% certain this is not so) that any one countyries teams are disadvataged financially - its the union.

We have been over the scarce numbers we have time and time again and there is no huge disparity in incomes for the clubs.  You can make it look like there is by comparing apples to oranges.  For example we know the players budget for the welsh teams but for the scots we only know the total costs.  If you look into the figures the actual money available for players is very similar.


Are you taking the p*ss?! The unions do not run all of the Pro14 clubs. Why on earth do you think this?!

Edit: just to add - the unions have similar income streams (I.e. sources) but not similar income levels. They vary vastly, as mentioned previously. Funnily enough it’s just been reported today that the WRU has had record turnover for 2017/18 of £97m. Which is almost double that of Scotland. So similar income streams but not amounts. And as Pot alluded to previously this is just revenue. It doesn’t mean the WRU have twice the money of the SRU to play with. The outgoings could be much higher for, for example, they could be paying off lots of more debts, could be more shareholders to pay, etc. More revenue doesn’t mean more to the clubs either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45578364
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:19 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !


That's not a tutting sound, it's the colelctive clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets.

Sigh. Wads of cash don’t clank. They quietly rustle if not held in place by the money clip.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:42 pm

laughing

Enjoyable day at the 606 office today. Lots of wise crackers about

.... pity it's a safe cracker I'm actually looking for. Oh well, back to Buy and Sell...

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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