The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:16 am

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.


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Post by LordDowlais on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:01 am

Irish Londoner wrote:The international team is doing well, the regions are ticking along - neither better nor worse over the last few seasons - but at the other end Neath one of Wales' most historic and prestigious clubs have just gone bankrupt.
Is the problem that Wales doesn't know what to do - the boat has sailed with regard to them ever joining the English league, there appears to still be some reluctance to accept the regional model, there aren't enough fans or money to sustain the Welsh Premiership as a professional league but it seems reluctant to take the step towards semi-pro/paid to play which would work better - what needs to be done?


Hi IL.

The thing is, things were on an upward curve, people in Wales can be a fickle bunch, Friday night was always Pro14 night, people were watching it, over 100,000 people at a time actually, it was a chance for people who do not like the soaps to watch some of the players they see in the red of Wales.

People harp on about that there are still games on S4C on a Saturday evening, but for most people, Saturday is where they follow their local side or go out for a night on the lash, some people would watch it on a Saturday, but Friday night was the place to be if you wanted to watch the regions in the Pro14.

That has been taken away now, unless you pay for it, and for the most, people are not paying for it. Put it this way, if Ospreys were playing Edinburgh on Friday night, and it was on Premier sports, there would be more people in Wales watching the Welsh premiership on BBC Wales.

Look, I take no pleasure in saying this, I have spent a lot of time, and money supporting the regions, I think that the concept of regionalism was a must for Welsh rugby, but it was done very badly from the outset. I also like the Pro14, I really do, but I am a realist, I live and breathe Wales and Welsh rugby, I can see what is going on around me, and not just myself, and my friends, but all around me. The buzz has gone, there is nobody really talking about the regions and the Pro14 no more. BBC would advertise the Friday night games, and the S4C games, people would know about them, and when they were on, now they don't.

As for Neath RFC, that has all to do with mismanagement, nothing to do with anything else, there is always a decent crowd at the Gnoll, it's a shame, because they are a great club.


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Post by RiscaGame on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:02 am

BamBam wrote:Must be a strange mind that is able to just pull arbitrary %s out of thin air without any basis or factual backing to support your claims, then claim everyone else is in a bubble and going mad

Indeed.

I must apologise to Oracle for the red vote. It was meant to be green, but my large thumb doesn’t really go well with iPhone screens.

Anyway,

I was speaking to people who told me the Pro 14 is amazing. They’ve never been more interested. Plus they live on Mars, so it’s outside of the regional towns/cities.

My local pub never shows Principality Prem games, but is always showing Pro 14. I’ll be taking that as evidence that more people are watching the Pro 14 than the Premiership.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:04 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Currently, with the ownership model that we have - yes. Where would it come from?! The WRU are rolling in it! Record turnover announced recently (a bit more than Ireland and double Scotland, but well below England, or sometime like that). I think it was something like £100m for the WRU and €90m plus for Ireland, but Ireland have to fully fund 4 pro teams. Not saying the WRU should give more to the regions based on that as the regions are private entities (well, 3.5 of them are). But they have the money. Funding the regions more would not bankrupt the WRU, but again I’m not suggesting they should

To be fair the Irish provinces are not just propped up by the international side, like what would have to happen in Wales.

Leinster could easily hold their own, as would Ulster and Munster. They get big enough crowds.

The interest is dwindling in Wales, the league, and the regions are not in the public eye anymore, people are not missing them either, they are being forgotten.

As suggested above I think you’re speaking of your own experience, and perhaps those of your friends, and then trying to apply that across wales. What evidence do you have for this interest dwindling apart from your own experience? Have you carried out the research? Or read research that has been carried out? Have regional crowd levels dropped significantly? I think they’re about the same. Or are just just assuming that with 1 game less on bbc that this means interest has dropped? Isn’t that just guess work? I recently got rid of Sky so no longer have National Geogrpahic (which I miss actually). Doesn’t mean my interest in documentaries has dwindled. It’s as keen as ever. Similarly, one less regional game I personally don’t believe will mean people’s interest in rugby will drop much. It hasn’t happened when rugby has moved to pay tv in other countries and I don’t think it will in Wales either.

Why do you always say this nonsense ?

You live in Wales, if you took 5mins to get out of your regional bubble, you would see that 80% of Wales perhaps more, do not give two hoots about the Pro14, or the regions anymore, but at least I am being honest about it.

I'll tell you what, you keep on dreaming that dream. You keep burying your head in the sand, you keep telling everyone that everything is going GRRRRRREAAATTTT !!!!!!!!!! thumbsup



I genuinely saddens me that you cannot discuss things like an adult. You retort with a childish response in an attempt to shut down the conversation. Fine, but it kinda makes this discussion forum pointless if you do not want to engage in conversation. Take care, see you around.
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:06 am

well stop telling me it's just me and my friends who are thinking along these lines, when you know very well that it isn't.

It's about time, that people like you and risca started being honest.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:24 am

So it's a lack of interest in rugby rather than format then and specifically people watching on tv. Given that what's the real impact as it doesn't appear to be people going to games and spending cash. Tv money already in so impact is the possible reduction in the next agreement?

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Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:30 am

LordDowlais wrote:well stop telling me it's just me and my friends who are thinking along these lines, when you know very well that it isn't.

It's about time, that people like you and risca started being honest.


I am being honest.  I can only speak about the people I know.  Same for you.  And since losing the game on BBC we (friends and family) have not lost interest in rugby.  We still go to the Dragons games (although the constant losses and poor performance mean we've lost some enthusiasm - but that's not to do with the league or TV).  My friends from outside Newport in other parts of Gwent (work colleagues of friends from Torfaen, one or two in Blaenau Gwent too) still come to the games.  We still try to go to an away game or two a year.  My dad and uncles don't go to regional games, never have.  But they like the internationals though.  Their interest has not changed and they still watch all of the internationals.  My son has just started playing rugby at the age of 4.  His interest has jumped up massively.  We watch it on the TV on S4c and Freesports.  The girls and boys in his rugby club age group (under 6s) are all rugby mad.  Their interest hasn't diminished.  The club keeps going from strength to strength with U6s, U8s, U9s, Youth, 2nds and 1sts.  And I think a girls team is in the offing.  We went to the club for bonfire night (they do a display every year) and it was packed.  The money goes to pay for kit for the junior sides.  So my experience is not one of declining interest.  That's just me being honest.  You cannot tell me otherwise, I'm afraid, because my experience is my experience.

We can only speak about what we know.  There is no way you can possibly speak for the whole of Wales.  My experience is that interest has not changed.  Sorry to disappoint.


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Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:47 am

RiscaGame wrote:
BamBam wrote:Must be a strange mind that is able to just pull arbitrary %s out of thin air without any basis or factual backing to support your claims, then claim everyone else is in a bubble and going mad

Indeed.

I must apologise to Oracle for the red vote. It was meant to be green, but my large thumb doesn’t really go well with iPhone screens.



Haha Laugh I assumed it was LD! No worries Risca thumbsup
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:06 pm

Nope I do not do red bars, I am not that infantile, if I do not like something on here I will say and give my reasons.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Nope I do not do red bars, I am not that infantile, if I do not like something on here I will say and give my reasons.

OK I salute you, Lord. There is a nobility about you.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Nope I do not do red bars, I am not that infantile, if I do not like something on here I will say and give my reasons.


Do you want to respond to my post about my experiences then, and explain why you think I'm lying (i.e. 'not being honest')?
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:44 pm

SecretFly wrote:

So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.  WRU involvement assists viability.


Can you talk me through this please.

Why would 'viability' increase, just because the funding stream for 4 teams, changes?

If anything, the opposite is going to happen, because there will be circa £10m - £12m of private money taken away form the sport in Wales. You are spouting complete nonsense.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:50 pm

It's called streamlining and reorganising the parameters of wastage and the negativity of disparate agendas.

Look it up. It might be called business.

Anyway, here's to a more cohesive Welsh Rugby Union model INVOLVING the Union bit attached to the Region bit.

Viability.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:51 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.  WRU involvement assists viability.


Can you talk me through this please.

Why would 'viability' increase, just because the funding stream for 4 teams, changes?

If anything, the opposite is going to happen, because there will be circa £10m - £12m of private money taken away form the sport in Wales. You are spouting complete nonsense.


Fly said increased involvement. I don't think he said WRU take over and full running of the regions.
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:00 pm

The Oracle wrote: I don't think he said WRU take over and full running of the regions.

That's ok then. God forbid my team ever takes on that model.

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Post by RiscaGame on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:21 pm

Why? Don’t you think it has been a success with Dragons Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:39 pm

Twins?

They gotta be twins then?

Yeah?

No?

Or maybe that mad Chinese scientist is further along in his 'research' than admitted to?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:Twins?

They gotta be twins then?  

Yeah?  

No?

Or maybe that mad Chinese scientist is further along in his 'research' than admitted to?

Or maybe more than 1 person has an opinion which differs to yours.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:53 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Twins?

They gotta be twins then?  

Yeah?  

No?

Or maybe that mad Chinese scientist is further along in his 'research' than admitted to?

Or maybe more than 1 person has an opinion which differs to yours.

Don't mind about that at all.  Every guy has got a legitimate opinion.  You and Phill are more than entitled to yours.

But we've played this game now for quite a long time.  Ya gotta come clean with us.  

You both share the same apartment?  
You're drinking buddies?  
You went to school together?
You work together?

Without a shadow of a doubt you mimic each other.  No doubt about that bit.  That kinda thing often comes with mucho familiarity.... as in old husband and wife team saying the same thing at the same time.... and all that jazz.

Just shine a light on it for all the auld boys in here who are long-in-the-tooth 606ers.....  Go on - you know you wanna....  Cool

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Twins?

They gotta be twins then?  

Yeah?  

No?

Or maybe that mad Chinese scientist is further along in his 'research' than admitted to?

Or maybe more than 1 person has an opinion which differs to yours.

Don't mind about that at all.  Every guy has got a legitimate opinion.  You and Phill are more than entitled to yours.

But we've played this game now for quite a long time.  Ya gotta come clean with us.  

You both share the same apartment?  
You're drinking buddies?  
You went to school together?
You work together?

Without a shadow of a doubt you mimic each other.  No doubt about that bit.  That kinda thing often comes with mucho familiarity.... as in old husband and wife team saying the same thing at the same time.... and all that jazz.

Just shine a light on it for all the auld boys in here who are long-in-the-tooth 606ers.....  Go on - you know you wanna....  Cool

seek help.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:08 pm

I'm asking for help.

Go on,........ for Christmas.... tell us the link. Don't be a Scrooge now.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:03 pm

SecretFly wrote:I'm asking for help.  

Go on,........ for Christmas.... tell us the link.  Don't be a Scrooge now.

I've never met any poster on this board as far as I'm aware. No link to anybody.

The fact you are unable to comprehend that 2 posters have the same similar viewpoint (one which seems at odds to yours by the way), speaks far more about your perception of reality, superiority complex and arrogance than it does anyone else's.

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Nope I do not do red bars, I am not that infantile, if I do not like something on here I will say and give my reasons.

OK I salute you, Lord.  There is a nobility about you.
Definitely a bit of a nob, I agree
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Post by SecretFly on Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:19 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I'm asking for help.  

Go on,........ for Christmas.... tell us the link.  Don't be a Scrooge now.

I've never met any poster on this board as far as I'm aware. No link to anybody.

The fact you are unable to comprehend that 2 posters have the same similar viewpoint (one which seems at odds to yours by the way), speaks far more about your perception of reality, superiority complex and arrogance than it does anyone else's.

Bah Humbug. Boy, you do complicate your verbal dalliances, don't you. Always trying to machine-gun a mouse to death rather than just getting the bloody cheese like everyone else. Wink Or is that Phil I'm thinking about?

Oh well, whichever. You both sound the same to me.

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Post by Brendan on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:05 am

With Scarlets and Ulster meeting 4 times would we like to see it in Europe that two Pro teams from the same conference aren't in the same pool. I'm not sure it would make much difference to the pools

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:24 am

Dangers of that, Brendan, is the farce we saw (or at least heard about) during the Draws for the Football EURO 2020.

Supposedly the European football world has become so complicated a political balancing act that certain teams couldn't be in certain bowls coz they don't like the other teams in it. Other teams couldn't be in the other bowls coz they 'd clash on sock colours... etc etc. (I exaggerate of course but it seems it was magnificently complicated)

The world somehow loves over-complicating itself all over the place and for no genuine reason except to befuddle and fussify.

A draw has to be a draw - i.e., it has to be chance, or else just have a 'trusted' human being declare who should play each other based on a number of defined limitations and reasoned objections. Now......... who do we trust enough? Yep, the computer gets the job again. And we all trust them. Whistle

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Post by marty2086 on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:27 am

Brendan wrote:With Scarlets and Ulster meeting 4 times would we like to see it in Europe that two Pro teams from the same conference aren't in the same pool.  I'm not sure it would make much difference to the pools

You think that's bad, they also played each other in the Celtic Cup.

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Post by Brendan on Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Brendan wrote:With Scarlets and Ulster meeting 4 times would we like to see it in Europe that two Pro teams from the same conference aren't in the same pool.  I'm not sure it would make much difference to the pools

You think that's bad, they also played each other in the Celtic Cup.

Yeah but no one cares about that

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Post by Pot Hale on Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:38 pm

So four countries on course for the Heineken Cup quarter finals and after four rounds in Challenge Cup, there is an Italian, Irish, Welsh and English team still in the mix along with the French.
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Post by Brendan on Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:43 pm

Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it. So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

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Post by Brendan on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:45 pm

https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/PRO14/cheetahs-look-set-for-massive-player-cleanout-20181218

Cheetahs cutting squad size for next season so hopefully more money to keep the better players

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:50 pm

Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again. How much Oak do we have left?!

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Post by Irish Londoner on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:39 am

SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

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Post by carpet baboon on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:28 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

Well they can't resist a good eye flutter from the PRL, they go all weak at the knees and light headed.

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Post by Brendan on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:34 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

I think this time the premiership is in a worse situation. The Pro14 teams are going up while the premiership revenue might be going down. The Pro14 have shown that even with the same situations of having to qualify that the Pro14 is still able to match them. Either more games or more exotic locations. In F1 they took races that increased revenue (but less fans) will we see the semis played in China or the middle East.

I think for the top 14 they now view to HC as a mark of a great team rather than a good team. Winning the top 14 is important but the HC is the goal of the Top 3/4 teams. In the premiership only Sarries view HC as the bigger prize but when you are on a 22 winning run and your hardest game may have been in Glasgow you can see why.

I would say that Sarries are so far ahead in England solely because they prioritize Europe so have to keep evolving to compete.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:11 pm

Good points Brendan.  

Prioritising the higher grade competition Strengthens a team because you force yourself to be serious about rotation.  Rotation in turn improves your squad skills overall as lower ranked players get high ranked coaching from main team coaches.  Improved underlings help main players then function better when they do come in after more strategic rest periods/weeks etc. It's just logic.

Therefore, if your team seriously concentrates on Europe, you WILL also improve your performances in your League.  One aids the other - it doesn't hamper the other - it aids the process. So even talk of relegation; playing a rotational game seriously will only aid a team medium to long term in keeping everything up, including the feet away from the relegation trap door.

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Post by Brendan on Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:Good points Brendan.  

Prioritising the higher grade competition Strengthens a team because you force yourself to be serious about rotation.  Rotation in turn improves your squad skills overall as lower ranked players get high ranked coaching from main team coaches.  Improved underlings help main players then function better when they do come in after more strategic rest periods/weeks etc.  It's just logic.

Therefore, if your team seriously concentrates on Europe, you WILL also improve your performances in your League.  One aids the other - it doesn't hamper the other - it aids the process.  So even talk of relegation;  playing a rotational game seriously will only aid a team medium to long term in keeping everything up, including the feet away from the relegation trap door.

I think that is why alot of coaches in the premiership have used injuries as a key reason for their lack of success.  When your back up player from outside the 23 is only used when you can't move one of your main players around it doesn't fill them with confidence.  As a result of this mindset the coaches feel that their player coming in will cost them points and possibly the game.  When they lose they don't have to look at themselves.

O'Gara talked about how Crusaders were missing players but the players coming in were expected to win.  He was taken back by that attitude. In Leinster all the players know that one bad performance and they could be dropped out of management's plans because others will perform.  Sarries also have been good at bringing in young players and expecting the same high standard which has helped with their squad

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Post by Exiledinborders on Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:00 pm

Brendan wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

I think this time the premiership is in a worse situation.  The Pro14 teams are going up while the premiership revenue might be going down.  The Pro14 have shown that even with the same situations of having to qualify that the Pro14 is still able to match them.  Either more games or more exotic locations.  In F1 they took races that increased revenue (but less fans) will we see the semis played in China or the middle East.

I think for the top 14 they now view to HC as a mark of a great team rather than a good team.  Winning the top 14 is important but the HC is the goal of the Top 3/4 teams.  In the premiership only Sarries view HC as the bigger prize but when you are on a 22 winning run and your hardest game may have been in Glasgow you can see why.

I would say that Sarries are so far ahead in England solely because they prioritize Europe so have to keep evolving to compete.
Sarries do not prioritise the European comp over the league. I suspect it is the reverse. It is just that they are the only English club that can put out teams that are good enough in Europe AND put out good sides every week in the Premiership so they can get into play-offs.  I am pretty sure Leinster would be good enough to do the same. I cannot see any other Pro14 team which could put out good sides every week. In the Premiership there are no teams as bad as Cheetahs, Zebre, Dragons or Southern Kings against which a top team's second team could expect to win pretty easily.

I am not sure why you think Sarries hardest game was against Glasgow. You only have to go back to their Gallagher Premiership match before last to find a closer game.

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Post by Brendan on Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:49 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

I think this time the premiership is in a worse situation.  The Pro14 teams are going up while the premiership revenue might be going down.  The Pro14 have shown that even with the same situations of having to qualify that the Pro14 is still able to match them.  Either more games or more exotic locations.  In F1 they took races that increased revenue (but less fans) will we see the semis played in China or the middle East.

I think for the top 14 they now view to HC as a mark of a great team rather than a good team.  Winning the top 14 is important but the HC is the goal of the Top 3/4 teams.  In the premiership only Sarries view HC as the bigger prize but when you are on a 22 winning run and your hardest game may have been in Glasgow you can see why.

I would say that Sarries are so far ahead in England solely because they prioritize Europe so have to keep evolving to compete.
Sarries do not prioritise the European comp over the league. I suspect it is the reverse. It is just that they are the only English club that can put out teams that are good enough in Europe AND put out good sides every week in the Premiership so they can get into play-offs.  I am pretty sure Leinster would be good enough to do the same. I cannot see any other Pro14 team which could put out good sides every week. In the Premiership there are no teams as bad as Cheetahs, Zebre, Dragons or Southern Kings against which a top team's second team could expect to win pretty easily.

I am not sure why you think Sarries hardest game was against Glasgow. You only have to go back to their Gallagher Premiership match before last to find a closer game.

The bottom half of the league has improved.

The only reason I said Sarries prioritize Euro is when Exeter on the league Sarries put out a B team and lost out on a home semi because they had the final the next week. When they have won the league 3 of the last 4 years they need the extra motivation.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:35 pm

Brendan wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

I think this time the premiership is in a worse situation.  The Pro14 teams are going up while the premiership revenue might be going down.  The Pro14 have shown that even with the same situations of having to qualify that the Pro14 is still able to match them.  Either more games or more exotic locations.  In F1 they took races that increased revenue (but less fans) will we see the semis played in China or the middle East.

I think for the top 14 they now view to HC as a mark of a great team rather than a good team.  Winning the top 14 is important but the HC is the goal of the Top 3/4 teams.  In the premiership only Sarries view HC as the bigger prize but when you are on a 22 winning run and your hardest game may have been in Glasgow you can see why.

I would say that Sarries are so far ahead in England solely because they prioritize Europe so have to keep evolving to compete.
Sarries do not prioritise the European comp over the league. I suspect it is the reverse. It is just that they are the only English club that can put out teams that are good enough in Europe AND put out good sides every week in the Premiership so they can get into play-offs.  I am pretty sure Leinster would be good enough to do the same. I cannot see any other Pro14 team which could put out good sides every week. In the Premiership there are no teams as bad as Cheetahs, Zebre, Dragons or Southern Kings against which a top team's second team could expect to win pretty easily.

I am not sure why you think Sarries hardest game was against Glasgow. You only have to go back to their Gallagher Premiership match before last to find a closer game.

The bottom half of the league has improved.

The only reason I said Sarries prioritize Euro is when Exeter on the league Sarries put out a B team and lost out on a home semi because they had the final the next week. When they have won the league 3 of the last 4 years they need the extra motivation.
The Bottom half has drastically improved this year. Zebre beat Bristol and Benetton beat Harlequins in the challenge cup this year. I find it hilarious that the quality of the Pro 14 outside of Leinster and Munster is constantly questioned on here, especially when you see the performances in Europe the last two seasons. The Pro 14 at this stage really has nothing to prove, there are quality teams throughout both conferences.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:41 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

Well they can't resist a good eye flutter from the PRL, they go all weak at the knees and light headed.

Tumbleweed
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Post by carpet baboon on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:01 pm

The Oracle wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

Well they can't resist a good eye flutter from the PRL, they go all weak at the knees and light headed.

Tumbleweed

I personally felt that it deserved better, but alas no fish wanted my bait.

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Post by Pot Hale on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:37 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

Well they can't resist a good eye flutter from the PRL, they go all weak at the knees and light headed.

Tumbleweed

I personally felt that it deserved better, but alas no fish wanted my bait.

Difficult to argue with the truth, Baboon.

However, the European comps will more than likely be re-structured post 2020. For a number of reasons. The Premiership want out or less teams involved. SARU want to have their teams in and add two more teams and that would increase the TV money that PRO16 Championship brings to the table along with the other broadcasters who want to get involved. The scheduling of the pool rounds will want to be moved under the new global schedule and later season starts in September. The PRO16 might argue that finances are not about 3 leagues anymore, it’s about the number of teams in each championship/league. 16 v 14 v 12/13 possibly. CVC will want a seat on the EPCR board no doubt. As will SARU obviously. A few more chickens pecking at the feed.
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Post by Intotouch on Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:22 am

Have they paid off the millenium stadium yet? When that's done they can properly invest in the regions and the clubs in Wales. Otherwise what's the point in €100million turnover?

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Post by Stone Motif on Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:57 am

carpet baboon wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

Well they can't resist a good eye flutter from the PRL, they go all weak at the knees and light headed.

Tumbleweed

I personally felt that it deserved better, but alas no fish wanted my bait.
Is it normal practice when fishing in Ireland to drop trou and take a dump in the water? Wouldn't surprise me


Last edited by Stone Motif on Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Shannon Trout, anyone?)
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Post by Pot Hale on Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:46 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Brendan wrote:Last time Edinburgh went on a run in Europe and were rubbish in the league the other leagues didn't like it.  So if we end up with problems again we know who to blame.

OK If the ominous 'meritocracy' word begins whispering from PRL once more then we know the Blasted Heineken is about to be broadsided yet again.  How much Oak do we have left?!

As/if/when CVC get the nod from the Premiership with the brief to bring more revenue in, we should be worried about this - there's little more value to be squeezed out of the UK domestic TV market for the Premiership so they will have to look at either making money from selling Premiership games overseas or by getting more from the European games, in which case expect a repeat of the shenanigans of a few years ago. Are the Welsh going to fall for it again ?

Well they can't resist a good eye flutter from the PRL, they go all weak at the knees and light headed.

Tumbleweed

I personally felt that it deserved better, but alas no fish wanted my bait.
Is it normal practice when fishing in Ireland to drop trou and take a dump in the water? Wouldn't surprise me

Well you know what they say about smelly bait, Stone....
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Post by SecretFly on Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:11 am

Best fertiliser there is. More nutrients, more life, bigger fish. Plus - it's all natural...... well, if you're a healthy eater.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:54 pm

The big elephant in the room being Brexit

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:43 pm

maestegmafia wrote:The big elephant in the room being Brexit

Nah don’t worry, they’ll still let the union owned clubs play. Smile
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Post by Brendan on Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:39 am

https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/r78m-per-year-wps-budget-the-biggest-in-sa-20180730

€1 = 16.5R
Big Mac Index (US$) Euro area 4.74, UK 4.23, SA 2.32 (for comparing true value of the money)
An article that seems to have gone under the radar regarding SA club wage bills.  I am sure certain posters will be able to inform us if the two Pro14 teams are exceeding expectation.

Stormers R78 million on128 players (average R609 375)
Bulls R68 million for 151 players (average R450 331)
Lions R66 million for 117 players (average R564 103)
Sharks R65 million for 111 players (average R585 586)
Cheetahs R41 million (€2.48m) for 92 players (average R445 652/€27k)
Southern Kings R12 million (€0.72m) for 68 players (average R176 471/€10.5k)

It shows how much of a strain on player resources the Currie Cup is.  Kings play in the lower division so their B team are not as strained.
If the Clubs can keep the same money on 50-60 players it should help alot
Becoming full members should boost the finances of the Pro14 teams.  Also looking at the figures are we surprised SA players are leaving for higher wages

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Post by Brendan on Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:47 pm

Assuming Ospreys win tomorrow the playoffs are hotting up nicely.

Leinster seem far enough ahead in Conference B.  2nd - 5th is only divided by 3pts (though I expect Treviso to drop a little).
Conference A Glasgow have been sucked right back into the fight.  If they lost their a game or two in the next few rounds they could drop to 3rd.  Ospreys after this round play Blues and Glasgow which could see them 5th or 1st/2nd.

Hotting up nicely.  Playoffs and Champion Cup spots will be some battle.

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