The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's if you trust.trams to stick the budget as well. Another question is if there was a cap you'd again face a potential exodus to other leagues.

If it gives a level playing field then that's a worthwhile risk.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:28 pm

Yes, an extra million euros that went towards facilities and new coaches and still below most in the league as I said

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:29 pm

munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:That's if you trust.trams to stick the budget as well. Another question is if there was a cap you'd again face a potential exodus to other leagues.

If it gives a level playing field then that's a worthwhile risk.

It's not a level playing field though unless you mandate everyone spends exactly the same

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:30 pm

Not to mention you are talking about 4 different tax regimes so even with a salary cap what players take home is different and some clubs are disadvantaged

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:31 pm

Ah well, lets carry on as normal then eh ?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:34 pm

Or we can change for the sake of change just because you want to complain about someone else for today?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:36 pm

marty2086 wrote:Or we can change for the sake of change just because you want to complain about someone else for today?

Tumbleweed
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:38 pm

Just saying it's hard to enforce as we saw saracens and bath get away scot free. Even harder for the pro 12 given its across different countries and you have unions paying players as well.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:42 pm

munkian wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Or we can change for the sake of change just because you want to complain about someone else for today?

Tumbleweed

Ok then, please explain how it gives a level playing field?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:43 pm

Well, for a start it give all teams the budget to rotate their squads without necessarily conceding games.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:44 pm

It would presumably decrease the budget for some though?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:44 pm

munkian wrote:Well, for a start it give all teams the budget to rotate their squads without necessarily conceding games.


Erm

Do you even know what a salary cap is?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would presumably decrease the budget for some though?

For maybe the top 4. But it would increase it for more.

I guess this is getting into politics and it depends how Tory you are.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:47 pm

munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It would presumably decrease the budget for some though?

For maybe the top 4. But it would increase it for more.

I guess this is getting into politics and it depends how Tory you are.

It's getting into that it's clear you don't know what a salary cap is. You are talking about increasing budgets which is a whole other matter picard

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:49 pm

Not at all Conservative. So say you're decreasing wages at the top 4 but forcing costs beyond a point some.teams believe they can spend for your lower limit. Does that not greatly increase the risk.of teams.going under? You assume.teams would add more players as well rather than just paying players more?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:50 pm

Or, maybe, its both, as I said earlier ? There needs to be a minimum and maximum salary cap.

I'm merely throwing out ideas, there's a huge disparity that needs to be addressed if the pro14 is to continue to progress and be taken seriously.



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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:54 pm

Except if a club doesn't have the money and can't afford the minimum what do they do then? It doesn't increase anything but nice to see you've clearly thought it through

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:57 pm

I'd assume you'd come to some of workable agreement rather than through out an arbitrary figure.

Lose the attitude eh ?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:02 pm

Don't think it's workable with a lower enforced limit. And lowering the cap.as.I said opens the league up to losing its best or most prominent players.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:03 pm

What attitude? Pointing how little thought has went into this great idea and how unworkable it is isn't my fault, it's that it's so easy to do

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:52 pm

Is there any proof from anywhere that a salary cap has benefit?

The concept seems to equate the amount of money a team spends on players with how successful they are. Yet in football Leicester City won the Premiership with a fraction of the 'big teams' budgets. At Connacht Pat Lam turned a bunch of also-ran players into champions. Despite having the biggest budget Toulon didn't win anything until they started playing together as a team.

Introducing a salary cap would simply drag teams lacking a unified spirit down, because they would have neither teamwork nor stars to partially compensate. Therefore from a rugby perspective a cap would increase disparity between the best and worse teams.

If there is any argument to be made for a salary cap it would be in Leagues with relegation - to eliminate kamikaze spending and so not risk a club's future. Thankfully the Pro14 doesn't have that and therefore no need to consider such a crude monetary restriction.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:55 pm

So any team overspending would be bailed out by the league currently?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 2:55 pm

The Great Aukster wrote: Despite having the biggest budget Toulon didn't win anything until they started playing together as a team.


When did Toulon have the biggest budget? Clermont, Toulouse and Stade Francais normally occupy the top 3 spots.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:15 pm

Even.more cloak and dagger in France but.I seem.to remember you.or possibly that other guy Phil never counted endorsements?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Even.more cloak and dagger in France but.I seem.to remember you.or possibly that other guy Phil never counted endorsements?

Me? I'm not sure. French club rugby is possibly the most strictly controlled / audited in the world though. Whether I count endorsements is neither here nor there - it's whether DCNAG counts them that you probably need to find out.

As long as it's the same for each club then there shouldn't be a problem.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Even.more cloak and dagger in France but.I seem.to remember you.or possibly that other guy Phil never counted endorsements?

Neither did Toulon or bonuses which had Mourad flipping out since a large chunk of wages got paid to his players that way

Top 14 Budgets for last year

1. ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2. Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3. Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4. Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5. Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6. RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7. Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8. Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9. Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10. Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11. Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12. CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13. US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14. SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:26 pm

As long as you count them in your thinking in the post rugby fan else that's where the cloak and dagger and work.around s to salary caps come in.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as you count them in your thinking in the post rugby fan else that's where the cloak and dagger and work.around s to salary caps come in.

You'd have to be able to do that for all players with endorsements / top ups in that case though.

For instance, you'd have to know how much Denis O'Brien pays to Johnny Sexton on top of Sexton's 700,000 Euro salary at Leinster

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:34 pm

So there you go. Cloak and dagger hidden budgets.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So there you go. Cloak and dagger hidden budgets.

Been happenning since Quins player's wives were employed as receptionists, given porsches and access to the wine cellars at Twickers.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:38 pm

So let's not pretend it's easy to enforce a salary cap or that all clubs who seem to aren't actually cheating it.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:41 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as you count them in your thinking in the post rugby fan else that's where the cloak and dagger and work.around s to salary caps come in.

You'd have to be able to do that for all players with endorsements / top ups in that case though.

For instance, you'd have to know how much Denis O'Brien pays to Johnny Sexton on top of Sexton's 700,000 Euro salary at Leinster

Why? That's outside his IRFU contract

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So let's not pretend it's easy to enforce a salary cap or that all clubs who seem to aren't actually cheating it.

Cheating it? That's a strong phrase to use. If a club wants to give away it's profits of a clothing line to a player that's their lookout. It's all declared for DCNAG in France. At least that's transparent and we can see heir budgets. Unlike, say in the Republic of Ireland.

Cheating the salary cap directly implies that a club is in breach of regulations. You need to be careful when alleging such claims.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:43 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as you count them in your thinking in the post rugby fan else that's where the cloak and dagger and work.around s to salary caps come in.

You'd have to be able to do that for all players with endorsements / top ups in that case though.

For instance, you'd have to know how much Denis O'Brien pays to Johnny Sexton on top of Sexton's 700,000 Euro salary at Leinster

Why? That's outside his IRFU contract

Because we don't know how much it is. It's unfair to look at one nations out of salary payments to rugby players without acknowledging another's.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:44 pm

Well if they're going to cheat it call it out. There's the other problem of course to implement it in the pro 12 the additional payments for international players. It just appears very unworkable.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well if they're going to cheat it call it out.

Well yeah. That's what the DCNAG are for. That's why they relegated Grenoble, Bourgoin and Montauban from the French league for financial irregularities.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by munkian on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:53 pm

Its understandable why teams or fans of teams at 'the top' don't want the status quo to change, they've had it easy for years.

The irish team budgets are opaque for a reason.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:54 pm

Ypu haven't really.acknowledged the difficulties of implementing it or how teams at the bottom would be protected from financial.risks.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:57 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as you count them in your thinking in the post rugby fan else that's where the cloak and dagger and work.around s to salary caps come in.

You'd have to be able to do that for all players with endorsements / top ups in that case though.

For instance, you'd have to know how much Denis O'Brien pays to Johnny Sexton on top of Sexton's 700,000 Euro salary at Leinster

Why? That's outside his IRFU contract

Because we don't know how much it is. It's unfair to look at one nations out of salary payments to rugby players without acknowledging another's.

Except as I said, it's nothing to do with his IRFU contract. The IRFU are not paying him that money, that's like saying you should include Sean O'Brien and the other Leinster players earning for their bar

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 3:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as you count them in your thinking in the post rugby fan else that's where the cloak and dagger and work.around s to salary caps come in.

You'd have to be able to do that for all players with endorsements / top ups in that case though.

For instance, you'd have to know how much Denis O'Brien pays to Johnny Sexton on top of Sexton's 700,000 Euro salary at Leinster

Why? That's outside his IRFU contract

Because we don't know how much it is. It's unfair to look at one nations out of salary payments to rugby players without acknowledging another's.

Except as I said, it's nothing to do with his IRFU contract. The IRFU are not paying him that money

Exactly. You got it in one.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 4:00 pm

munkian wrote:Its understandable why teams or fans of teams at 'the top' don't want the status quo to change, they've had it easy for years.

The irish team budgets are opaque for a reason.

Because Irish law doesn't require it

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 4:00 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:As long as you count them in your thinking in the post rugby fan else that's where the cloak and dagger and work.around s to salary caps come in.

You'd have to be able to do that for all players with endorsements / top ups in that case though.

For instance, you'd have to know how much Denis O'Brien pays to Johnny Sexton on top of Sexton's 700,000 Euro salary at Leinster

Why? That's outside his IRFU contract

Because we don't know how much it is. It's unfair to look at one nations out of salary payments to rugby players without acknowledging another's.

Except as I said, it's nothing to do with his IRFU contract. The IRFU are not paying him that money

Exactly. You got it in one.

I know I did but you clearly haven't

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 4:01 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:

Because we don't know how much it is. It's unfair to look at one nations out of salary payments to rugby players without acknowledging another's.

Except as I said, it's nothing to do with his IRFU contract. The IRFU are not paying him that money

Exactly. You got it in one.

I know I did but you clearly haven't

Nice to chat to you Martyn.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 4:15 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:

Because we don't know how much it is. It's unfair to look at one nations out of salary payments to rugby players without acknowledging another's.

Except as I said, it's nothing to do with his IRFU contract. The IRFU are not paying him that money

Exactly. You got it in one.

I know I did but you clearly haven't

Nice to chat to you Martyn.

Well Im glad I could help point out that you think income that is nothing to do with the contract should be reported and in any system of salary caps wouldn't be included


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 5:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Even.more cloak and dagger in France but.I seem.to remember you.or possibly that other guy Phil never counted endorsements?

Neither did Toulon or bonuses which had Mourad flipping out since a large chunk of wages got paid to his players that way

Top 14 Budgets for last year

1.  ASM Clermont Auvergne: € 31.55 million 9th
2.  Toulouse stadium: € 30.86 million 3rd
3.  Stade Français: € 30.16 million 12th
4.  Lyon Rugby: € 27.08m 5th
5.  Montpellier Hérault Rugby: € 26.90m 1st
6.  RC Toulon: € 26.39 million 4th
7.  Racing 92: € 24.91 million 2nd
8.  Union Bordeaux-Begles: 24.68M € 10th
9.   Section Paloise: 23.02 M € 8th
10.  Rochelais Stadium: € 22.81m 7th
11.  Castres Olympique: € 21.73 million Champions
12.  CA Brive Corrèze: € 17.58 million 14th
13.  US Oyonnax: € 15.42 million 13th
14.  SU Agen: € 12.32 million 11th

Thanks for the data Marty.

It shows there is only a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position. The standout comparison is that Stade Francais finished below Agen despite having 2.5 times the budget.

If big investment doesn't correlate to success on the pitch, then curtailing the budgets wouldn't correlate to making the League any more competitive either.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by Brendan on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 7:33 pm

So if there was a salary cap could the IRFU reduce everyone's league salary that is IQ by say 50k. And then bring in a rule if you attend an National training camp you get 50k. And magically all the IQ people attend so Joe can have a look at them.

Connacht won the league in a large part to the fact that they got a really good skills coach which improved every player and allowed them to play like Lam wanted. He left at the end of the season they won it.

Leinster would have had players like Lamour, Byrne (x2), Porter, Ryan etc who were on minimum wages due to academy contracts. You win the league by having few injuries (Connacht & Scarlets) or you have good depth (Leinster).

How much more money did Cockrill spend compared to the year before

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by TJ on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 8:39 pm

There is a fairly level p-llaying feild in the pro 14 as all unions have the sameish income. WRU get a bit extra for their 4th international, Italy is still a chunk behind

There is not the disparity in spending that you get in France or England

On cheating the salery cap we all know several english clubs did it.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Oracle on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:15 pm

TJ wrote:There is a fairly level p-llaying feild in the pro 14 as all unions have the sameish income.  WRU get a bit extra for their 4th international, Italy is still a chunk behind

There is not the disparity in spending that you get in France or England

On cheating the salery cap  we all know several english clubs did it.  

Unless I’m misunderstanding your post then no, there’s quite a disparity in income of unions. Someone posted it recently. Scotland were quite a way behind Ireland and Wales (whose unions had a similar income). And England were wa out in front. I’ll try to dig out the figures. And it’s not filtered down to the pro clubs in the same way either. So I’d say union income (for the Pro14) is not a good indicator or predictor of club budget.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by TJ on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:21 pm

its the main source of income. all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12. European cup varies a bit. Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

Post by The Oracle on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 9:25 pm

Scotland announced record turnover of £52m for 2017/18. Ireland posted something close to 90m euros turnover and Wales was similar in £ if memory serves. For context England revenues were £184m!
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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