England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on 2/9/2018, 21:07

First topic message reminder :

guildfordbat wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:The toss has proven to be most significant factor in the entire series. Root was fortunate he won the toss in every match - despite he moronic decision to bowl in Nottingham. Had the tosses been the opposite way around we could easily be 0-4 down as Kohli would've batted in Nottingham anyway.

The side is clearly in decline once Anderson and Broad leave the scene we may well struggle to even win at home.

Curran has been a decent find more for his batting, bowling isn't anything to write home about yet.

Moeen a decent comeback but his issues are he's hopeless away from England.

Cook and Jennings need scores at the Oval or i would hope both are dropped for Sri Lanka.


Root has shown in this series he's not of the class of a Smith, Kohli or Williamson. His stock has fallen big time.

Dropping is easy. Replacing is less so.
Burns and Vince. Need someone to get after the bowling on the Sri Lankan sandpits and Vince is a decent player of spin. Burns the guy the try and hold up an end.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 7/9/2018, 17:18

The ball is beginning to turn as well (Jadeja). It is 74 overs old.

India can take a new ball in 6 overs time. But will they given the swing and turn?

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 7/9/2018, 17:25

Hey Olly...only yesterday you were saying you thought Bairstow was a better bet at five than Buttler . Are you now suggesting Buttler is the better bat ?
Because if so , shouldn't he be batting higher ?

And if he has to be kept at seven , who are England 'bending over backwards" to accommodate ?

And those stats aren't as clear as you suggest. Up to 2015 Bairstow was an intermittent struggler of a middle order bat. In 2016 he found his niche as a keeper / batsman ...with great success.
Not so spectacular since : but those figures aren't too bad - up to the last three , post-injury , innings. And undoubtedly influenced by being pushed too high in the order...

I know you will never be happy until you get your man back in place Smile

Fair enough. But I'd prefer to get the best out of both JBs . If that is possible ...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on 7/9/2018, 17:31

alfie wrote:Hey Olly...only yesterday you were saying you thought Bairstow was a better bet at five than Buttler . Are you now suggesting Buttler is the better bat ?
Because if so , shouldn't he be batting higher ?

And if he has to be kept at seven , who are England 'bending over backwards" to accommodate ?

And those stats aren't as clear as you suggest.  Up to 2015 Bairstow was an intermittent struggler of a middle order bat. In 2016 he found his niche as a keeper / batsman ...with great success.
Not so spectacular since : but those figures aren't too bad - up to the last three , post-injury , innings. And undoubtedly influenced by being pushed too high in the order...

I know you will never be happy until you get your man back in place Smile

Fair enough.  But I'd prefer to get the best out of both JBs . If that is possible ...

Maybe the answer is Stokes at 5, Buttler 6, Bairstow 7? I do think Bairstow can bat at 5 - he's just in bad nick at the moment, and I'm being a little facetious with that post Hug

But I do think it is right to point out he's had a poor two years now - your post above about his technique seeming to alter to make him better in ODIs, might be the root cause of his issues...as Sky also keep pointing out too!
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Gooseberry on 7/9/2018, 17:33

Step away a couple of hours and the test is on its head again.
What a ridiculous series!

And of all the batsmen still in how is it Moeen who looked like a standing wicket...again!

Piy for Cook he didnt get a century but at least he made a good score...and theres always the second innings.



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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by guildfordbat on 7/9/2018, 17:34

No name Bertie wrote:It seems that after Tea the atmospheric conditions and the condition of the ball, has caused the ball to swing ... so the batting has become more difficult.  But the wicket is still flat and the bounce is "true".

There's been a lot of criticism by Surrey members in recent years that Oval wickets have been too batsmen friendly with too many Championship matches fizzling out into draws as a consequence. I'm a long way from being an expert on wicket preparation but do know there has been a concerted attempt by head groundsman Lee Fortis and his team to produce wickets providing a more even contest between bat and ball. That does seem to be more the case this year.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 7/9/2018, 17:43

India decline the new ball for now - which is what I thought they would do.

So Stokes departs for 11 and England is now 175-5.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 7/9/2018, 17:46

Sharma after 20 overs has an economy rate of 1.20 (runs / over), conceding only 24 runs.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 7/9/2018, 17:48

Moeen gets his fifty clap [and bleeding amazing under the context of the match]

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 7/9/2018, 17:53

As always a batsman will get himself out either in the high 40s or soon after he gets the 50. And Moeen's innings comes to an end:
Runs 50, Minutes 251, Balls faced 170

England 177-6. India sticking with the old ball for now.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on 7/9/2018, 17:54

No name Bertie wrote:As always a batsman will get himself out either in the high 40s or soon after he gets the 50.  And Moeen's innings comes to an end:

Erm Erm Erm ????
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 7/9/2018, 17:56

And no heroics from Sam Curran. Bowled for a duck.
England 181-7 and probably cooked.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on 7/9/2018, 18:06

alfie wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Think that Bairstow is vastly overrated tbh. He's good at hiding at 6/7 getting runs when the top order crumbles. Essentially under no pressure as if he fails he can say no one else got any or if he gets a score oh look I saved the day. 5 hundreds in 101 innings is dreadful for a boy who's first class average is north of fifty

Rather unfair , Nathaniel. "Hiding" at seven ?  Hardly. Logical spot for the keeper (no one ever accused Gilchrist of "hiding") and he batted very well there.  Not just the hundreds , but pretty consistent results.

However his success there has fooled a lot of people into overlooking the flaws in his technique which render him unsuitable for batting too early in the order - I believe five is his limit ; and it isn't ideal for him either.

The worst thing is , all this pushing up the order - and speculation about the keeping duties - may have messed with his confidence .  Hopefully not irrevocably .

The injury didn't help , of course. And , arguably , his (highly successful !) efforts to win a place in the ODI side might not have done his technique any favours.

I think he should drop back down to six/ seven.  But that area is getting a bit crowded...
Gilchrist was more than good enough to bat in the Australian top 6, just the small matter of Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, S Waugh and M Waugh in front of him...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Duty281 on 7/9/2018, 18:10

England lose six wickets for 48 runs. Surely they won't come back this time?

Crazy series.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on 7/9/2018, 18:16

Of course, the one time England's top order don't fail - the middle/lower order do.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by guildfordbat on 7/9/2018, 18:24

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Of course, the one time England's top order don't fail - the middle/lower order do.

Peak England

The failing of the middle/lower order probably also takes eyes off another poor score by Jennings.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 7/9/2018, 18:25

Duty281 wrote:England lose six wickets for 48 runs. Surely they won't come back this time?

Crazy series.

Haven't you learned yet , Duty ? Anything can and will happen in this , indeed crazy , series.

No predictions : Rashid might make sixty ; India might be bowled out for 95 tomorrow...or they might get 450 and England do the same in the second innings ...

Just keep your money in your pocket , I'd suggest.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 7/9/2018, 18:30

198/7. Think we can call that India's day Smile

We will see how they bat tomorrow .

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by guildfordbat on 7/9/2018, 18:45

alfie wrote:198/7. Think we can call that India's day Smile

We will see how they bat tomorrow .

Surrey have won two Championship matches at the Oval this season in which they batted first and both times made 211 first dig. Not a totally appropriate comparison by any means but fair to say that Oval tracks are not quite the roads they used to be.

Excellent pack bowling by India. Meanwhile, Cook looked like the pressure was off whilst Moeen was a man with a mission.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Duty281 on 7/9/2018, 18:50

198 in 90 overs of cricket must make it one of the lowest run-scoring (full) days in 'modern' Test cricket.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by guildfordbat on 7/9/2018, 18:59

Duty281 wrote:198 in 90 overs of cricket must make it one of the lowest run-scoring (full) days in 'modern' Test cricket.

Yes, and 28 of those runs came in extras.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Duty281 on 7/9/2018, 19:40

guildfordbat wrote:
Duty281 wrote:198 in 90 overs of cricket must make it one of the lowest run-scoring (full) days in 'modern' Test cricket.

Yes, and 28 of those runs came in extras.

Cricinfo informs me that the lowest in modern (ish) Test cricket would be the 135/2 that England amassed in 85 overs in a test match in 1999. Nasser Hussain eventually made 146* in ten and a half hours.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283081.html

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on 7/9/2018, 21:48

England could do with a Buttler/Rashid cameo in the morning to get them upto 250, which as we’ve seen in previous tests could be a decent score - that is of course providing this isn’t your typical Oval pitch which tends to get better days two and three for batting.

As for Cook - felt like today was a brief flashback to the good old days, and those memorable evenings spent watching him cut and pull Mitchell Johnson and co across the Gabba and other grounds in 2010/11. Makes me smile at least!
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by KP_fan on 7/9/2018, 22:44

my notes from day's play:

1) Whichever way you skin the cat.....the top/middle Bottom....combine to give Eng 250ish in first inning after winning toss

2) India won the 2nd session giving 50 odd runs in 30 odd overs inpsite of taking no wickets in that session.....and then converted the pressure into wickets in the 3rd session

3) It was old fashioned 1980s test cricket...batted entire day, no curtailment and yet 200 runs....even by 1980s standards a "slow" days....Eng were behind by a session in run scoring rate by modern standards

& Hence the old adage " add 15 runs and 2 wickets to the current score"....hit them about 3 times making it India's day

4) Indian bowling was cold in first session...but their engines warmed up and fired on all cylinders in 2nd and 3rd sessions
Shami was the best exponent of seam and ended up without wickets.....
A Lion hearted effort from our bowlers making it difficult for the batsman to put bat to ball....inspite of dropped catches...they kept coming back
I couldn't make out if it was convention movement or reverse

The formula of holding one end with jadeja worked well....gave 3 seamers enough breath to keep going from one end...
Jadeja is very tight...and although he looks innocuous compared to mystery spinners....he has many subtle variation and is a wicket taking bowler.....so wasn't just holding an end but created chances...

Pitch was already turning in 3rd session and should be a Southampton like pitch

Its a shame insüite of having an imperious bowling attack and better middle order we are trailgn 3-1

4) Batsmen have to put runs on board...Broad and Anderson are known difficult commodities.....but after seeing them off...India must play Moeen better than they did in last test

if they don't give cheap wickets to Moeen ....they can build a lead
India must get a lead of 70+

Else if they finish +/- 20 runs of Eng...it becomes a single inning shoot out and 160+ becomes too big like we saw in T1 and T4

But first get them below 250 tomm morning
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on 7/9/2018, 22:51

I think India missed a trick in this series not utilising Jadeja early. Say what you want about his bowling but he's mighty consistent and he strangle's the opposing side. Ashwin should've been the 'all rounder' instead of the Pandya experiment

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by KP_fan on 7/9/2018, 22:53

and winning the toss in not in Kohli's hand its a lottery
using dRS is in his control and shouldn't be frittered away as a lottery gambling mad
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by KP_fan on 7/9/2018, 22:59

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:I think India missed a trick in this series not utilising Jadeja early. Say what you want about his bowling but he's mighty consistent and he strangle's the opposing side. Ashwin should've been the 'all rounder' instead of the Pandya experiment

There are no Ifs and Buts......and Hindsight is always 20/20

Kohli is finding out the right balance as he goes alon. ...the rationale behind Pandya was clear...but Pandya lacked the skill as a batsman or call it luck

In principal....India needs a batsman who is handy 5th bowler.....they should look at carrying Shankar who is a batsman averaging 48 in Ranji.... who can bowl 80mph medium pace

or get few of their batsman like Vihari / Rahane / Pujara to practise and be atleast like sehwag with the ball
Or get Bhuvi in the Pandya role....he is a better proven batsman than pandya and a top-3 quality seam bowler


a win here would give Kohli a lot of breathng space and freedom to continue to find the right balance his way
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on 7/9/2018, 23:07

KP_fan wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:I think India missed a trick in this series not utilising Jadeja early. Say what you want about his bowling but he's mighty consistent and he strangle's the opposing side. Ashwin should've been the 'all rounder' instead of the Pandya experiment

There are no Ifs and  Buts......and Hindsight is always 20/20

Kohli is finding out the right balance as he goes alon. ...the rationale behind Pandya was clear...but Pandya lacked the skill as a batsman or call it luck

In principal....India needs a batsman who is  handy 5th bowler.....they should look at carrying Shankar who is a batsman averaging 48 in Ranji.... who can bowl 80mph medium pace

or get few of their batsman like Vihari / Rahane / Pujara to practise and be atleast like sehwag with the ball
Or get Bhuvi in the Pandya role....he is a better proven batsman than pandya and a top-3 quality seam bowler


a win here would give Kohli a lot of breathng space and freedom to continue to find the right balance his way
TBH picking a part time all rounder doesn't offer the side the correct balance. Pandya might be a decent 50/20 over player but that won't cut it in Test cricket.

India needs a stronger coach whom is willing to challenge Kohli

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 8/9/2018, 10:18

Was Cook a great England Captain? Did it affect his batting negatively? Did it cause him to empty his tank a few years early (maybe Cook would not be retiring now - but would be continuing for a few more years).

Root - is he a great England Captain? Is it affecting his batting negatively? Is he going to burn out earlier than otherwise?

Kevin Petersen - did being England Captain affect him negatively in terms of his relationship with the other players and the upper hierarchy? I seem to recall him having differences of opinion and being frustrated at what he saw to be inefficiencies and interferences.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on 8/9/2018, 11:06

Yeah, I seem to remember Pietersen having some differences of opinions and difficulties in the England setup...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on 8/9/2018, 11:36

Rashid gone with England now 214-8

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on 8/9/2018, 11:37

Me thinks Jos needs to open up and go for it

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by CaledonianCraig on 8/9/2018, 11:49

Valuable runs these for England. They move on to 234 for 8 as Broad wears one on the ribs.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on 8/9/2018, 12:06

Broad is doing ok. Still want Jos to have a go, although easier said than done, but the positives of Broad digging in shouldn’t be overplayed as this innings could easily be over in a snap

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 8/9/2018, 12:07

Rashid , Buttler , and now Broad all doing a useful job this morning...some handy runs added.
Jos has edged a couple - seems to have that shot working rather well this summer Smile but is playing pretty soundly at the moment , pushing singles and happy to collect runs as they are offered rather than going after everything...and Broad is backing him up nicely so far.

Sensible cricket ; ball still moving for the Indian seamers but they must be a bit weary after yesterday...gradually bringing the score up towards semi-respectability .

Of course we won't know what is respectable until India bat...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by CaledonianCraig on 8/9/2018, 12:10

The 250 comes up for England and the partnership now up to 37 for the 9th wicket. England 251 for 8.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by CaledonianCraig on 8/9/2018, 12:21

This partnership is beginning to hurt India. It is now up to 45 and England are 259 for 8.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 8/9/2018, 12:24

Also like the way Jos isn't bothering to farm the strike. Runs are coming from both ends and with sixty added already today this is going better than most probably expected overnight.
Not sure Kohli has got his fields quite right this morning : not enough pressure on the batsmen early on ; few too many easy single allowed.

Often tricky when you're bowling to one set bat and a tailender who isn't exactly useless ; but the ball was fairly new this morning and I think India will be a bit disappointed they couldn't cut this innings short before this.

263/8 Here's Ishant back...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by CaledonianCraig on 8/9/2018, 12:25

A boundary from Buttler brings up the 50 partnership. England 267 for 8.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on 8/9/2018, 12:30

Well, they've done this excellently and I was completely wrong.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on 8/9/2018, 12:31

Jos is fantastic at edging the ball, isn't he?  Very Happy

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by CaledonianCraig on 8/9/2018, 12:31

A fine 50 up for Jos Buttler. clap
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 8/9/2018, 12:35

Fifty partnership clap

Top order troubles etc but this England team do bat deep...has saved them a few times recently.

Fifty for Buttler now clap

Tired bodies have clearly started to hamper India ...they won't be happy with this morning's work.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by CaledonianCraig on 8/9/2018, 12:37

A score of 300+ now appearing ever nearer on the horizon. England 284 for 8.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 8/9/2018, 12:40

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Jos is fantastic at edging the ball, isn't he?  Very Happy

He has managed to profit from it a lot this year ! I was surprised Kohli didn't have more slips in for him this morning , given the way he has played pretty well throughout the series. I see he has a third slip in now. ; but the horse might have bolted...

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 8/9/2018, 12:44

CaledonianCraig wrote:A score of 300+ now appearing ever nearer on the horizon. England 284 for 8.

Indeed. I was hoping for a bit of a tail wag...but about 250 was the limit of my expectations. Especially when it was clear the ball was still doing things this morning.

Funny game really : 130/1 ...65/6...90/1...

You'd think this was being played on different grounds Smile

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by guildfordbat on 8/9/2018, 12:53

Not for the first time, I go along with Key. Vihari's solitary over as first change looking more and more odd.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 8/9/2018, 12:57

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:A score of 300+ now appearing ever nearer on the horizon. England 284 for 8.

Indeed.  I was hoping for a bit of a tail wag...but about 250 was the limit of my expectations. Especially when it was clear the ball was still doing things this morning.

Funny game really : 130/1 ...65/6...90/1...

You'd think this was being played on different grounds Smile
Maybe The Indians took the new ball too early? The old ball appeared to be swinging and turning. Maybe the atmospheric conditions have changed - or the wicket is getting flatter? England did quite well with the first new ball, less well when it got older. Since the second new ball was taken England's fortunes have improved despite being 7 wickets down at the time.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by CaledonianCraig on 8/9/2018, 12:58

This stand has done more than just beef up the total though. It has served to grind down the Indian bowlers and keep the Indian openers on edge about when they will bat. 300 up for England as lunch approaches. England's morning.
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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by No name Bertie on 8/9/2018, 13:01

There's England 300. Now 300-8 compared to 181 - 7 yesterday. The ball still seems to be swinging.

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Post by alfie on 8/9/2018, 13:03

Over 300 now coming up to lunch...

Wonder how India's batsmen will react to what is obviously going to be a unexpectedly poor morning in the field ? When they get in , of course .

304/8. Can they push it up to 350 after lunch ?

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Re: England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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