England - the winter tours thread

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England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 8:55 am

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses Cool
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 9:22 am

Jesus, I didn’t realise it was so soon. BBC posting continuously about the end of the summer cricket and lamenting its loss made t seem like there were months till more internationals were played.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 9:24 am

What time will the tests start by English time? I see they’re for and a half hours behind me, which means 4 and a half hours ahead of you lot, but then the clocks are gonna change so I’m already sick of thinking about this!

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:09 am

Yeah starting early this year so they get a proper break at christmas for once.
Also means theres a larger chance of significant differences between the test squad on the two tours.

The 50 overs teams are going to be the usual suspects and world cup likelies...a few fringe candidates ( like Curran) could get opportunities, but for the most part I expect they will play the usual suspects unless the wheels badly come off. Its a team thats worked well for them and hard to see how it can be improved on, the ongoing battle between Bairstow, Roy and Hales for 2 batting spots and the specialist seamers are the key questions. Root, Morgan, Buttler, Stokes, Woakes, Rashid, and Moeen are givens.

The T20 squad is likley to be a mish mash with many of the 50 overs team rested. Bayliss has made it clear he doesnt place much importance on these games outside of world cups. This si where we could see some real left field picks and youngsters getting the chance to make a name for themselves.

Test squad has been discussed at length in the India thread.
Despite the issues most of the team looks pretty set for Sri Lanka.
1 Burns, 2?, 3 Moeen , 4 Root, 5 Bairstow, 6 Stokes, 7 Buttler, 9, Rashid
Openers..Bayliss has indicated that they will take 2 from Burns, Jennings, Vince and Gubbins. With Burns the obvious oustanding candidate.
Seamers is a little confused by who they will rest. Anderson has openly said he wants to tour this winter, and he seemed to get through a fairly arduous summer unscathed. Broad falling apart in the 5th test shows the danger of these elderly gents being overbowled though.
Assuming they go with 2 specialist spinners plus Moeen that leaves only two specialist seamer spots. Theres talk of them wanting to take one of the young pace bowlers (Overton or Stone) , if Anderson does play that leaves a long tail. The other option is between Woakes and Curran (man of the series at home)...but despite his heroics Curran is not the bowler Woakes is and certainly not as good a batsman (yet). Theres concerns about his pedestrian pace and lack of experience with the Kookabura ball on a dead pitch which could render him practically useless. It would be hard to leave him out of the tour party I guess, but I dont see him as a starter.
Spinners Leach seems the prime candidate to make up the team, offering variety and being the outstanding wicket taker in the CC over the last few years. Its possible another might join the part as cover too ( Bess would be the obvious candidate)
Theres space for a cover batsman too...which could be Vince (if hes not selected as an opener) or Pope.

All in I don't expect any radical changes (aside from the test openers), the wild experiments are likely to be confined to the T20 squads.

Both low key series against fairly weak teams, but both tours they have traditionally struggled on.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:20 am

I can't forsee any joy for England in Sri Lanka during the test series. Sri Lanka recently hammered a touring South Africa side 2-0 (winning by 278 and 199 runs), and they also battered Australia 3-0 in a recent-ish series in 2016.

England haven't triumphed in a test series in Sri Lanka since 2001, when they scraped home by 3 wickets and 4 wickets to win a series 2-1. England have visited three times since then, drawing one series and losing the other two.

But the ODIs should bring victories, so there's that.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:38 am

Yeah Duty I dont expect either to be pushovers...not just because of Englands ongoing issues touring ( and lack of a top 3 and a pace bowler)
....but
South Africa in particular are utterly hopeless against spin bowling, and both teams struggle to balance a side when wanting more than one spin option ( let alone genuine quality spinner) in the side.
Washing over concerns about Moeens habitual failings overseas in theory England can play a very deep batting line up with 3 decent spinners in it for the first time in their history. Its the first time they've looked like they might actual have a genuine threat in Asian conditions since Panessar / Sawnn. Previously theyve ended up relying too much on county medium quicks to graft away in hopeless conditions.
Sri Lanaka are also getting weaker rather than better as a team (unless they've suddenly found some actual test cricketers)
The ongoing problems with the top of the order and questions about seam options aside the England team is arguably better equipped than Aus or SA were.

But things could go badly wrong quickly. Theres always a chance the entire team will fold like a pancake the minute a spinner comes on. Moeen, Rashid and Leach could prove easy pickings for aggressive Sri Lankan batsmen. The seamers will struggle to get the kookabura moving.

West Indies...theyve gone to several times as clear favourites and screwed it up. Again they should be seeking a series win but a lot will depend on fixing the top order and they likely will have to shift Moeen down for that series.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 11:02 am

Duty really has morphed into an arch-pessimist ...

Sri Lanka will be tough at home - like all teams they suit their own conditions. But they aren't that good. Not the old days of Murali , Vaas , Sangakarra etc.  England will miss Cook ; and they'll need one or two players to stand up ....hopefully some new ones.  But I think they have a chance.

Not naming my team yet .  But a couple of thoughts :

Jimmy must tour.  But there might be a case for letting Broad sit this one out - he has had a couple of minor injuries this summer and might benefit from a rest.

Curran has played five Tests. He averages 36 with the bat and about 23 with the ball.  He's played a couple of vital match changing innings , at least one outstanding bowling spell...and England have won all his matches...

I get the idea that he might be less effective in foreign conditions.  But I am a believer in giving a form man a
chance to show how he can adapt rather than deciding his limitations in advance. And he will surely learn something from it even if he doesn't star in the different conditions. I think he has to tour.

Burns really ought to go. I take little notice of Bayliss thinking out loud since it often comes to nothing..but if Vince travels - I think he might - I reckon he will be more likely to bat three than open.

Leach must go ...if he mainly shines on dodgy Taunton tracks - well , his presence might help even the odds if the locals serve up pitches that turn from ball one.  More important and likely to succeed than Rashid , I think.

Still some county games to go .  But not too many places that aren't spoken for...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 11:15 am

I hope Vince goes and he opens. Not cos I think it’ll work, but because I see very little logic behind it and as such I’ll enjoy the boom or bust

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 1:18 pm

Sri Lanka are a very decent team in their home conditions, whilst England are on a dreadful away series run (only winning two away series since February 2011!). I do expect England to defeat the West Indies early next year/win the World Cup/win the Ashes back etc. but Sri Lanka will be an extremely tough test.

On a lighter note, SkyBet have opened a book on who England's opening partnership will be for the first test against Sri Lanka. Jennings and Burns at 6/4 favourites, closely followed by Jennings and Denly at 5/2, then Burns and Denly at 10/3. Vince and Burns is an outside 7/1, while Bairstow and Burns is 12/1. Burns and Ian Bell? 100/1.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 1:21 pm

alfie wrote:

Jimmy must tour.  But there might be a case for letting Broad sit this one out - he has had a couple of minor injuries this summer and might benefit from a rest.

Curran has played five Tests. He averages 36 with the bat and about 23 with the ball.  He's played a couple of vital match changing innings , at least one outstanding bowling spell...and England have won all his matches...


If youre playing Jimmy and Curran that means you're not picking a fast bowler at all and having Curran ahead of Woakes, who hands down is the better player but also would benefit from developing his game by playing overseas as a lead seamer. The only thing that Curran really offers that England don't already have elsewhere is the left arm variation. I just don't see how he gets in the team if they have a 3 man spin attack, tour party yes...but he might be better off playing in the lions game and being a standby if Woakes/Stokes gets injured.
Now theres also an argument that Stokes and Woakes could need a rest since they play all 3 formats ( although they will probably be rotated out during the T20s) ...but I cant see them taking that chance with the test team when theres already such a lack of senior players. The bowling stats are good but have to be taken in context ... he was generally spared bowling in the most difficult times for England, most of his wickets were tail enders, and he hasn't shown the capacity to bowl long spells or bulk overs. His most effective bowling came in very helpful conditions when India were entirely unprepared for him, on the whole his output was inconsistent. To take wickets bowling at 80mph (probably less on the Sri Lanka wickets) with no height, a seam that will disappear after 20 overs, he will have to really up his game to have any threat.
For a development spot Jamie Overton seems a much better pick to me. Height and pace can still be a threat on Sri Lankan wickets, and England need that for future foreign tours much more than they do another county seamer who can bat a bit.
Honestly I see Currans best chance of most value being in getting the experience in T20 and maybe a couple of ODI's. He's even one that could press for the spot Willey often occupied in the 50 over side
Broad wont like it because of the threat it places on his place in the side but almost certainly he will be rested for at least Sri Lanka. Jimmy might not want to but in terms of developing the side and looking at the long term, as well as prolonging his career for the Ashes, it makes sense that again he misses at least one leg. Both he and Broad seem to have gotten of the fragility that had for a few seasons, but that's partly been down to having them handled with kid gloves. With the long term view leaving them both behind gives more capacity to get a fast bowler and 3 spinners in the side.

The choices England make here should be more about the long term than the short IMO. If they don't even make the effort to find a fast bowler, 2 openers, and a proper lead spinner then we may as well give up on any pretence that they really believe they can get back to number one and have any ambition to compete when its not an overcast day at home.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:16 pm

I wonder who will win out in the battle over Jennings? In an interview with Ed Smith on Sky the other day it seemed like a sealed deal that Jennings would be selected in Smith's eyes. Howere, Trevor Bayliss has a different opinion and hints that he shouldn't be selected after a sub-standard summer. Who will win out I wonder.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:40 pm

Another 66 runs for Burns in the second innings (does bring his season average in the CC down!)

It probably will be Jennings and Denly for Sri Lanaka knowing Smith/Bayliss Rolling Eyes

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 3:22 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Another 66 runs for Burns in the second innings (does bring his season average in the CC down!)

It probably will be Jennings and Denly for Sri Lanaka knowing Smith/Bayliss Rolling Eyes

I tend to agree with you.

Personally, I think they should be looking at this as a big opportunity to begin a new era. Cook has retired and Jennings is just not weighing in with scores big enough to make a difference. The chance is there now to turn over a new leaf and greatly revamp the upper batting order which is really what is needed. Get Burns in along with Clarke or another opener as yet untried but I suspect the openers will be Jennings and maybe Vince.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Jetty on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 4:10 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wonder who will win out in the battle over Jennings? In an interview with Ed Smith on Sky the other day it seemed like a sealed deal that Jennings would be selected in Smith's eyes. Howere, Trevor Bayliss has a different opinion and hints that he shouldn't be selected after a sub-standard summer. Who will win out I wonder.

They have forgotten about the Lions tour of the WI. Then again everyone was rubbish against spin.
Jennings 127 runs at 21.16. Hameed was a bit better 167 runs at 27.83

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 10:59 am

An extraordinarily generous price of 4/7 on England winning the upcoming ODI series against Sri Lanka is available at Bet365. A beautiful way to begin the winter months.

This is the same Sri Lanka that haven't won any of their last 8 ODI bilateral series, losing to Zimbabwe 3-2 in Sri Lanka and being annihilated 5-0 by Pakistan and India along the way.

England should be priced in the region of 1/4, 1/5, but they're not. Pile on.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 11:53 am

Duty281 wrote:An extraordinarily generous price of 4/7 on England winning the upcoming ODI series against Sri Lanka is available at Bet365. A beautiful way to begin the winter months.

This is the same Sri Lanka that haven't won any of their last 8 ODI bilateral series, losing to Zimbabwe 3-2 in Sri Lanka and being annihilated 5-0 by Pakistan and India along the way.

England should be priced in the region of 1/4, 1/5, but they're not. Pile on.

I'd imagine you will be nowhere near as confident with regards to the test series V Sri Lanka.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 1:06 pm

Sri Lanka are 8th in the ODI rankings now and results arent getting better, even playing in asia.
Englands track record in 50 over games thete though is probably whats kept the odds looking tempting.

Its pretty short odds for an away series regardless of the gulf.


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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger Yesterday at 10:32 am

Sri Lanka lost to Afghanistan by 91 runs yesterday in the Asia Cup.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 Yesterday at 11:51 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:An extraordinarily generous price of 4/7 on England winning the upcoming ODI series against Sri Lanka is available at Bet365. A beautiful way to begin the winter months.

This is the same Sri Lanka that haven't won any of their last 8 ODI bilateral series, losing to Zimbabwe 3-2 in Sri Lanka and being annihilated 5-0 by Pakistan and India along the way.

England should be priced in the region of 1/4, 1/5, but they're not. Pile on.

I'd imagine you will be nowhere near as confident with regards to the test series V Sri Lanka.

Laugh Very true, unfortunately.

Strange times. We have an England ODI team that we can have the utmost confidence in, but a very inconsistent England test side.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 Yesterday at 11:52 am

LondonTiger wrote:Sri Lanka lost to Afghanistan by 91 runs yesterday in the Asia Cup.

And they got hammered by 137 runs against Bangladesh the game before that.

They're just a very, very poor one day team.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat Yesterday at 1:51 pm

Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat Yesterday at 5:26 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

Well, that got you talking! Wink 63 for Roy which will keep Smith & co interested if they ever were.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig Yesterday at 5:46 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

Well, that got you talking! Wink 63 for Roy which will keep Smith & co interested if they ever were.

It isn't inconceivable. Seems to me like Smith's selection or surprise call-ups tend to be revisiting players used before such as Rashid, Buttler, Ali and Jennings. I await him coming up with an original selection.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Yesterday at 8:29 pm

They could, and have done, a lot worse than Roy. I doubt he'll be picked, but it's an intriguing option
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Jetty Today at 2:28 am

alfie wrote:


Jimmy must tour.  But there might be a case for letting Broad sit this one out - he has had a couple of minor injuries this summer and might benefit from a rest.

Curran has played five Tests. He averages 36 with the bat and about 23 with the ball.  He's played a couple of vital match changing innings , at least one outstanding bowling spell...and England have won all his matches...

I get the idea that he might be less effective in foreign conditions.  But I am a believer in giving a form man a
chance to show how he can adapt rather than deciding his limitations in advance. And he will surely learn something from it even if he doesn't star in the different conditions. I think he has to tour.

Burns really ought to go. I take little notice of Bayliss thinking out loud since it often comes to nothing..but if Vince travels - I think he might - I reckon he will be more likely to bat three than open.

Leach must go ...if he mainly shines on dodgy Taunton tracks - well , his presence might help even the odds if the locals serve up pitches that turn from ball one.  More important and likely to succeed than Rashid , I think.


Agree with you about Anderson (only player to have played Tests in SL) and Curran.

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