England - the winter tours thread

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England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 8:55 am

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses Cool
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 9:22 am

Jesus, I didn’t realise it was so soon. BBC posting continuously about the end of the summer cricket and lamenting its loss made t seem like there were months till more internationals were played.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 9:24 am

What time will the tests start by English time? I see they’re for and a half hours behind me, which means 4 and a half hours ahead of you lot, but then the clocks are gonna change so I’m already sick of thinking about this!

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:09 am

Yeah starting early this year so they get a proper break at christmas for once.
Also means theres a larger chance of significant differences between the test squad on the two tours.

The 50 overs teams are going to be the usual suspects and world cup likelies...a few fringe candidates ( like Curran) could get opportunities, but for the most part I expect they will play the usual suspects unless the wheels badly come off. Its a team thats worked well for them and hard to see how it can be improved on, the ongoing battle between Bairstow, Roy and Hales for 2 batting spots and the specialist seamers are the key questions. Root, Morgan, Buttler, Stokes, Woakes, Rashid, and Moeen are givens.

The T20 squad is likley to be a mish mash with many of the 50 overs team rested. Bayliss has made it clear he doesnt place much importance on these games outside of world cups. This si where we could see some real left field picks and youngsters getting the chance to make a name for themselves.

Test squad has been discussed at length in the India thread.
Despite the issues most of the team looks pretty set for Sri Lanka.
1 Burns, 2?, 3 Moeen , 4 Root, 5 Bairstow, 6 Stokes, 7 Buttler, 9, Rashid
Openers..Bayliss has indicated that they will take 2 from Burns, Jennings, Vince and Gubbins. With Burns the obvious oustanding candidate.
Seamers is a little confused by who they will rest. Anderson has openly said he wants to tour this winter, and he seemed to get through a fairly arduous summer unscathed. Broad falling apart in the 5th test shows the danger of these elderly gents being overbowled though.
Assuming they go with 2 specialist spinners plus Moeen that leaves only two specialist seamer spots. Theres talk of them wanting to take one of the young pace bowlers (Overton or Stone) , if Anderson does play that leaves a long tail. The other option is between Woakes and Curran (man of the series at home)...but despite his heroics Curran is not the bowler Woakes is and certainly not as good a batsman (yet). Theres concerns about his pedestrian pace and lack of experience with the Kookabura ball on a dead pitch which could render him practically useless. It would be hard to leave him out of the tour party I guess, but I dont see him as a starter.
Spinners Leach seems the prime candidate to make up the team, offering variety and being the outstanding wicket taker in the CC over the last few years. Its possible another might join the part as cover too ( Bess would be the obvious candidate)
Theres space for a cover batsman too...which could be Vince (if hes not selected as an opener) or Pope.

All in I don't expect any radical changes (aside from the test openers), the wild experiments are likely to be confined to the T20 squads.

Both low key series against fairly weak teams, but both tours they have traditionally struggled on.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:20 am

I can't forsee any joy for England in Sri Lanka during the test series. Sri Lanka recently hammered a touring South Africa side 2-0 (winning by 278 and 199 runs), and they also battered Australia 3-0 in a recent-ish series in 2016.

England haven't triumphed in a test series in Sri Lanka since 2001, when they scraped home by 3 wickets and 4 wickets to win a series 2-1. England have visited three times since then, drawing one series and losing the other two.

But the ODIs should bring victories, so there's that.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:38 am

Yeah Duty I dont expect either to be pushovers...not just because of Englands ongoing issues touring ( and lack of a top 3 and a pace bowler)
....but
South Africa in particular are utterly hopeless against spin bowling, and both teams struggle to balance a side when wanting more than one spin option ( let alone genuine quality spinner) in the side.
Washing over concerns about Moeens habitual failings overseas in theory England can play a very deep batting line up with 3 decent spinners in it for the first time in their history. Its the first time they've looked like they might actual have a genuine threat in Asian conditions since Panessar / Sawnn. Previously theyve ended up relying too much on county medium quicks to graft away in hopeless conditions.
Sri Lanaka are also getting weaker rather than better as a team (unless they've suddenly found some actual test cricketers)
The ongoing problems with the top of the order and questions about seam options aside the England team is arguably better equipped than Aus or SA were.

But things could go badly wrong quickly. Theres always a chance the entire team will fold like a pancake the minute a spinner comes on. Moeen, Rashid and Leach could prove easy pickings for aggressive Sri Lankan batsmen. The seamers will struggle to get the kookabura moving.

West Indies...theyve gone to several times as clear favourites and screwed it up. Again they should be seeking a series win but a lot will depend on fixing the top order and they likely will have to shift Moeen down for that series.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 11:02 am

Duty really has morphed into an arch-pessimist ...

Sri Lanka will be tough at home - like all teams they suit their own conditions. But they aren't that good. Not the old days of Murali , Vaas , Sangakarra etc.  England will miss Cook ; and they'll need one or two players to stand up ....hopefully some new ones.  But I think they have a chance.

Not naming my team yet .  But a couple of thoughts :

Jimmy must tour.  But there might be a case for letting Broad sit this one out - he has had a couple of minor injuries this summer and might benefit from a rest.

Curran has played five Tests. He averages 36 with the bat and about 23 with the ball.  He's played a couple of vital match changing innings , at least one outstanding bowling spell...and England have won all his matches...

I get the idea that he might be less effective in foreign conditions.  But I am a believer in giving a form man a
chance to show how he can adapt rather than deciding his limitations in advance. And he will surely learn something from it even if he doesn't star in the different conditions. I think he has to tour.

Burns really ought to go. I take little notice of Bayliss thinking out loud since it often comes to nothing..but if Vince travels - I think he might - I reckon he will be more likely to bat three than open.

Leach must go ...if he mainly shines on dodgy Taunton tracks - well , his presence might help even the odds if the locals serve up pitches that turn from ball one.  More important and likely to succeed than Rashid , I think.

Still some county games to go .  But not too many places that aren't spoken for...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 11:15 am

I hope Vince goes and he opens. Not cos I think it’ll work, but because I see very little logic behind it and as such I’ll enjoy the boom or bust

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 1:18 pm

Sri Lanka are a very decent team in their home conditions, whilst England are on a dreadful away series run (only winning two away series since February 2011!). I do expect England to defeat the West Indies early next year/win the World Cup/win the Ashes back etc. but Sri Lanka will be an extremely tough test.

On a lighter note, SkyBet have opened a book on who England's opening partnership will be for the first test against Sri Lanka. Jennings and Burns at 6/4 favourites, closely followed by Jennings and Denly at 5/2, then Burns and Denly at 10/3. Vince and Burns is an outside 7/1, while Bairstow and Burns is 12/1. Burns and Ian Bell? 100/1.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 1:21 pm

alfie wrote:

Jimmy must tour.  But there might be a case for letting Broad sit this one out - he has had a couple of minor injuries this summer and might benefit from a rest.

Curran has played five Tests. He averages 36 with the bat and about 23 with the ball.  He's played a couple of vital match changing innings , at least one outstanding bowling spell...and England have won all his matches...


If youre playing Jimmy and Curran that means you're not picking a fast bowler at all and having Curran ahead of Woakes, who hands down is the better player but also would benefit from developing his game by playing overseas as a lead seamer. The only thing that Curran really offers that England don't already have elsewhere is the left arm variation. I just don't see how he gets in the team if they have a 3 man spin attack, tour party yes...but he might be better off playing in the lions game and being a standby if Woakes/Stokes gets injured.
Now theres also an argument that Stokes and Woakes could need a rest since they play all 3 formats ( although they will probably be rotated out during the T20s) ...but I cant see them taking that chance with the test team when theres already such a lack of senior players. The bowling stats are good but have to be taken in context ... he was generally spared bowling in the most difficult times for England, most of his wickets were tail enders, and he hasn't shown the capacity to bowl long spells or bulk overs. His most effective bowling came in very helpful conditions when India were entirely unprepared for him, on the whole his output was inconsistent. To take wickets bowling at 80mph (probably less on the Sri Lanka wickets) with no height, a seam that will disappear after 20 overs, he will have to really up his game to have any threat.
For a development spot Jamie Overton seems a much better pick to me. Height and pace can still be a threat on Sri Lankan wickets, and England need that for future foreign tours much more than they do another county seamer who can bat a bit.
Honestly I see Currans best chance of most value being in getting the experience in T20 and maybe a couple of ODI's. He's even one that could press for the spot Willey often occupied in the 50 over side
Broad wont like it because of the threat it places on his place in the side but almost certainly he will be rested for at least Sri Lanka. Jimmy might not want to but in terms of developing the side and looking at the long term, as well as prolonging his career for the Ashes, it makes sense that again he misses at least one leg. Both he and Broad seem to have gotten of the fragility that had for a few seasons, but that's partly been down to having them handled with kid gloves. With the long term view leaving them both behind gives more capacity to get a fast bowler and 3 spinners in the side.

The choices England make here should be more about the long term than the short IMO. If they don't even make the effort to find a fast bowler, 2 openers, and a proper lead spinner then we may as well give up on any pretence that they really believe they can get back to number one and have any ambition to compete when its not an overcast day at home.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:16 pm

I wonder who will win out in the battle over Jennings? In an interview with Ed Smith on Sky the other day it seemed like a sealed deal that Jennings would be selected in Smith's eyes. Howere, Trevor Bayliss has a different opinion and hints that he shouldn't be selected after a sub-standard summer. Who will win out I wonder.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:40 pm

Another 66 runs for Burns in the second innings (does bring his season average in the CC down!)

It probably will be Jennings and Denly for Sri Lanaka knowing Smith/Bayliss Rolling Eyes

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 3:22 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Another 66 runs for Burns in the second innings (does bring his season average in the CC down!)

It probably will be Jennings and Denly for Sri Lanaka knowing Smith/Bayliss Rolling Eyes

I tend to agree with you.

Personally, I think they should be looking at this as a big opportunity to begin a new era. Cook has retired and Jennings is just not weighing in with scores big enough to make a difference. The chance is there now to turn over a new leaf and greatly revamp the upper batting order which is really what is needed. Get Burns in along with Clarke or another opener as yet untried but I suspect the openers will be Jennings and maybe Vince.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Jetty on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 4:10 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I wonder who will win out in the battle over Jennings? In an interview with Ed Smith on Sky the other day it seemed like a sealed deal that Jennings would be selected in Smith's eyes. Howere, Trevor Bayliss has a different opinion and hints that he shouldn't be selected after a sub-standard summer. Who will win out I wonder.

They have forgotten about the Lions tour of the WI. Then again everyone was rubbish against spin.
Jennings 127 runs at 21.16. Hameed was a bit better 167 runs at 27.83

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 10:59 am

An extraordinarily generous price of 4/7 on England winning the upcoming ODI series against Sri Lanka is available at Bet365. A beautiful way to begin the winter months.

This is the same Sri Lanka that haven't won any of their last 8 ODI bilateral series, losing to Zimbabwe 3-2 in Sri Lanka and being annihilated 5-0 by Pakistan and India along the way.

England should be priced in the region of 1/4, 1/5, but they're not. Pile on.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 11:53 am

Duty281 wrote:An extraordinarily generous price of 4/7 on England winning the upcoming ODI series against Sri Lanka is available at Bet365. A beautiful way to begin the winter months.

This is the same Sri Lanka that haven't won any of their last 8 ODI bilateral series, losing to Zimbabwe 3-2 in Sri Lanka and being annihilated 5-0 by Pakistan and India along the way.

England should be priced in the region of 1/4, 1/5, but they're not. Pile on.

I'd imagine you will be nowhere near as confident with regards to the test series V Sri Lanka.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 17 Sep 2018, 1:06 pm

Sri Lanka are 8th in the ODI rankings now and results arent getting better, even playing in asia.
Englands track record in 50 over games thete though is probably whats kept the odds looking tempting.

Its pretty short odds for an away series regardless of the gulf.


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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 10:32 am

Sri Lanka lost to Afghanistan by 91 runs yesterday in the Asia Cup.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 11:51 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:An extraordinarily generous price of 4/7 on England winning the upcoming ODI series against Sri Lanka is available at Bet365. A beautiful way to begin the winter months.

This is the same Sri Lanka that haven't won any of their last 8 ODI bilateral series, losing to Zimbabwe 3-2 in Sri Lanka and being annihilated 5-0 by Pakistan and India along the way.

England should be priced in the region of 1/4, 1/5, but they're not. Pile on.

I'd imagine you will be nowhere near as confident with regards to the test series V Sri Lanka.

Laugh Very true, unfortunately.

Strange times. We have an England ODI team that we can have the utmost confidence in, but a very inconsistent England test side.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 11:52 am

LondonTiger wrote:Sri Lanka lost to Afghanistan by 91 runs yesterday in the Asia Cup.

And they got hammered by 137 runs against Bangladesh the game before that.

They're just a very, very poor one day team.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 1:51 pm

Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 5:26 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

Well, that got you talking! Wink 63 for Roy which will keep Smith & co interested if they ever were.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 5:46 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

Well, that got you talking! Wink 63 for Roy which will keep Smith & co interested if they ever were.

It isn't inconceivable. Seems to me like Smith's selection or surprise call-ups tend to be revisiting players used before such as Rashid, Buttler, Ali and Jennings. I await him coming up with an original selection.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 18 Sep 2018, 8:29 pm

They could, and have done, a lot worse than Roy. I doubt he'll be picked, but it's an intriguing option
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Jetty on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 2:28 am

alfie wrote:


Jimmy must tour.  But there might be a case for letting Broad sit this one out - he has had a couple of minor injuries this summer and might benefit from a rest.

Curran has played five Tests. He averages 36 with the bat and about 23 with the ball.  He's played a couple of vital match changing innings , at least one outstanding bowling spell...and England have won all his matches...

I get the idea that he might be less effective in foreign conditions.  But I am a believer in giving a form man a
chance to show how he can adapt rather than deciding his limitations in advance. And he will surely learn something from it even if he doesn't star in the different conditions. I think he has to tour.

Burns really ought to go. I take little notice of Bayliss thinking out loud since it often comes to nothing..but if Vince travels - I think he might - I reckon he will be more likely to bat three than open.

Leach must go ...if he mainly shines on dodgy Taunton tracks - well , his presence might help even the odds if the locals serve up pitches that turn from ball one.  More important and likely to succeed than Rashid , I think.


Agree with you about Anderson (only player to have played Tests in SL) and Curran.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 8:44 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

Well, that got you talking! Wink 63 for Roy which will keep Smith & co interested if they ever were.

It isn't inconceivable. Seems to me like Smith's selection or surprise call-ups tend to be revisiting players used before such as Rashid, Buttler, Ali and Jennings. I await him coming up with an original selection.

Pope, Bess and Curran all Smith selections.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 9:46 am

Definitely not under the banner of ITK - more like from the brother of the lady at the launderette who does the washing for the Oval's assistant physio Wink - but I have heard suggestions both Currans will go to Sri Lanka with the ODIs heavily in mind.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 10:12 am

I read a big article at the weekend about the Currans, including input from Alan Lamb as a family friend. Suggestions did seem to be that (especially with Willey's stress fracture) both would be in the ODI party.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 11:06 am

Tiger - I didn't know about that article but it does tally with the word outside the launderette on the Harleyford Road. Very Happy

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 11:50 am

LondonTiger wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Jason Roy batting today at number 3 for Surrey. Wrong thread? Possibly. Possibly not.

Well, that got you talking! Wink 63 for Roy which will keep Smith & co interested if they ever were.

It isn't inconceivable. Seems to me like Smith's selection or surprise call-ups tend to be revisiting players used before such as Rashid, Buttler, Ali and Jennings. I await him coming up with an original selection.

Pope, Bess and Curran all Smith selections.

Two of the three injury enforced, and all dropped at first opportunity (although Curran came back quickly, that puts him in the "revisited" list as well mind).

The notion of picking kids they didnt feel were neccasarily really ready to be genuine test forces but had the potential to become very good as long term projects is a Bayliss thing and pre dates Smith. Crane and Hameed for example (how did that work out Rolling Eyes ).


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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 2:21 pm

ODI squad:

Eoin Morgan (Middlesex), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Sam Curran (Surrey), Tom Curran (Surrey), Liam Dawson (Hampshire), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), Olly Stone (Warwickshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham).

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 3:01 pm

The lady at the launderette knows her stuff! Wink

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 3:21 pm

Dawson? I guess hes cover for Moeen but pretty unispiring
Wood? His ODI records even worse than his test one.
No place for Jamie Overton is dissapointing, looks like Stone took his spot as potential new pace bowler, but frankly he couldve had Woods spot IMO.
No Billings for once...seems England may finally be over him (await T20 squad which will probably be light of many of these players)

It'll be interesting to see what this signals for the test squad. Will Stone or Overton get a place in that, or will Wood continue to be the "pace" option no matter how medicore his returns continue to be.

As expectcted though its the core squad with a few different options in the bowling. No great revolution and difficult for anyone to really break into that batting line up which is already a man over.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by JDizzle on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 6:36 pm

Dawson is very solid cover as the spinner - we don't have another wrist spinner banging on the door yet, Parkinson has a way to go with his all round package, so Dawson is good cover.

Jamie Overton is a terrible List A bowler, no shock he hasn't been selected in this squad. He'd be cannon fodder in Sri Lanka in the shorter stuff. Very keen to see how Stone goes though.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 9:10 pm

http://www.606v2.com/t32653-olly-stone-signs-northants-pro-deal

Looks like some of us have an eye for talent Smile
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Wed 19 Sep 2018, 10:51 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Tiger - I didn't know about that article but it does tally with the word outside the launderette on the Harleyford Road. Very Happy

Laugh Laugh

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 8:18 am

JDizzle wrote:Dawson is very solid cover as the spinner - we don't have another wrist spinner banging on the door yet, Parkinson has a way to go with his all round package, so Dawson is good cover.

Jamie Overton is a terrible List A bowler, no shock he hasn't been selected in this squad. He'd be cannon fodder in Sri Lanka in the shorter stuff. Very keen to see how Stone goes though.

Yeah good points.
I just feel unispired when I see names like Dawson in the squad, hes not someone who's ever going to improve the side as it is now, or one for the future.

Thinking further with Stone I guess he will just be in the limited overs squads and Overton could still be in line for the test squad. It would be better management of the young fast bowlers to split their workload and get them to specialise. But its worth noting that although he had a decent end to this season Stones record in limited overs games is pretty poor too.
Either way England really do need to be trying to bring through a proper fast strike bowler for tests. If they only paceman in the test squad is Wood then Ill be very underwhelmed, even if hes a bit more consistent and tidy it doesn't look like he will ever be genuinely quick or threatening at the highest level.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 10:16 am

According to Giles , Stone might need to be be used sparingly at first...he compares him with a Ferrari rather than a runabout . Ninety mph but not to be bowled into the ground ...so introducing him in the 50 over caper might be a good idea. Overton may indeed still be a chance for the Test squad.
However I also see Root urging the selectors to pick Broad , even if they were disposed to rest him : he wants his experienced hands.
I'm less sure : I do think SB was looking a bit battered by end of series and might benefit from a spell - leaving him fresh for the West Indies tour in a couple more months. In any case if the spin-friendly conditions are going to be as advertised the pace bowling spots will be a bit crowded...

Firming up my team for Sri Lanka :1 Burns .2 AN Other .3 Moeen (I'd actually sooner Vince , to be honest , but think this is set in stone for now)4 .Root. 5-6-7 Some combination of Stokes and the two JBs. 8 S Curran 9 Rashid 10 Leach 11 Anderson

If I got my way with the number three bat Moeen would go eight and I'd settle for just two spinners. And indeed if they insisted on including another seam bowler Rashid is the one I'd leave out - just expect finger spin to be more effective over there. No idea about the second opener...I have seen some wild ideas being tossed around among the press "experts" ! One wanted Foakes as a third wicket keeper along with six bowlers...which might not in itself be ridiculous but was spoiled by trying to open the batting with Jos...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 11:17 am

Roots thinking seems to be based more on wanting to win than develop for the future. There was definately an element of that in the selection of the summer teams, even Porter as back up was very much a short term cover for an injury to Anderson home pitches stock option rather than looking at the sort of player England dont have at all. Currans selection was driven by the unavailbility of first choices. Pope was the only real experimental player and he was dropped very quickly when things started to go wrong.  
Theres certainly only room for one of Broad and Anderson in the first X1 if they are going to play Leach (or another third spinner). Honestly Id rather see them both left behind and there be space in the team for the attacking fast bolwer. Woakes , Stokes, Bairstow, Moeen and Buttler are now verteran players (albeit that Buttler hasnt played many tests). Root and England need to get over Broad and Anderson, and maybe they can learn from the issues some (including KP) cited about the unwelcoming borderline bullying mentality that the clique of established old hands could create in the dressing room. Although they will miss Andersons ability and would ideally have him there to advise and mentor if they actually want to be able to field these younger bowlers then its maybe better he doesnt go, and the same for Broad.
England will have the data and idea of how Broad and Andersons workloads will be managed over the next year. They need to ballance that against concerns that Anderson my just chuck the towel in and walk away at any time as Cook did.
I personaly would have Woakes ahead of Curran, hes a better bowler and whilst maybe Curran is technicaly a better batsman he has more test pedigree in that regard. That said Woakes' record in Asia is pretty poor, but thats the case for pretty much all Englands bowlers and theres little to suggest that Curran would be any different (its alos worth nopting how many of Currans wickets this summer came against the tail under lights. He will be pretty inocous bowling at 80mph on a flat pitch with no help from the seam or atmosphere). But then if you are playing Broad or Anderson then the all rounder spot becomes the development one so if they do believe that Curran has some potential outside of county pitches then by my own standards he should play.
Honestly though I would much rather see them give a run out for a fast bowler than one whos even slower than Anderson.

Share the concerns about Moeen at 3, his batting record up the order in tests is pretty awful anywhere in the world. But unles they push everyone else back up a place too high or go with just 5 bowlers (bearing in mind one would be Stokes) he kind of has to play there. I dont see England going into a game with just two seamers ( espeically one being Stokes who needs to be used sparingly), and they would want more spin options than just Moeen ( whos overseas record isnt good) and Rashid both of whome tend to be easy to score off.

Malan could still be a "wild card" pick. There was an interview recently where he discussed his dropping ( which he felt was premature) and the way England had handled him. He had been upset about being told he was seen as more of an "overseas" player for England, but Bayliss had clarified that this was intended to be more of a compliment than an attack on his abilities at home. As he bowls a bit of spin he could give the side flexbility / cover ...allowing Moeen to be moved down the order etc.

Stoneman seems to have found some late form and is maybe sticking his name back in the mix for a recall, but he wasnt one of the formost names being bandied about a couple of weeks ago. He does give the side a bit more expereince in theory should make Burns more comfortable on his assumed debut. But its probably too little too late for him.

Burns, Chuck Norris, Moeen, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler, Woakes, Rashid, Overton, Leach for me.

But this does rather pre-empt the squad selection. And we know what England are like for curve balls.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 11:55 am

I’d take Malan. Then again, I’m more for taking bigger touring squads, but that’s not really the done thing

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 1:15 pm

Well now I didn't expect to be in complete agreement with Goose on this ...so no surprises there...

But I'm wondering if we are approaching this tour with rather different objectives : If the main complaint after another somewhat successful home summer is that England cannot win overseas ; why would not the first order of business be to select a team capable of winning in Sri Lanka rather than some vague notion of training up newcomers for the day the established bowlers call it a day ? I'm fine with taking Overton but think it would be madness not to select Anderson - who is much more likely than any other England bowler to be effective even on unhelpful pitches .  As goose admits Woakes has a poor Asia record and there is no real reason why Curran wouldn't do as well or better : should he not get the chance at least to try ?
I'm not convinced three spinners will necessarily be any better than two : if the pitches resemble Taunton , Leach and Mo might be all that is needed ; if they are just "flat" I doubt any England spinners will be effective ...
Look , I am fine with the idea of trialling new young pace men - like Stone. But is it likely that having them flog themselves around Sri Lankan sand pits will actually help identify - or improve - the next prospects for tours to Australia and South Africa ?  Wouldn't it be better to make sure these fellows are sent to the right places with The Lions ?...and maybe given a shot in the next home season when the inevitable injuries offer a chance ?

I'm open to argument on this .  But I reject the notion that this series is as good as lost already so let's just experiment . I still think you pick the best team to win , and if that can accommodate one or more new faces , fine...but not by deliberate handicapping the side through overdoing the R&R for aging players...[/i]

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 1:17 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I’d take Malan. Then again, I’m more for taking bigger touring squads, but that’s not really the done thing

Not for a short series or when there's a concurrent Lions series.
I can imagine its an extremely frustrating experience for a professional sportsperson to go on a long tour and not play.

Time spent with the coaches working on specifics and giving them an opportunity to see close up how they adapt to certain changes between games is obviously a good thing, but the coaches really only have a limited resource of time which they will want to invest in the smaller group of players likely to get a game.
Englands recent approach to longer tours seems to have been to rotate players in and out, effectively giving them a big extended squad but not having them their all together. India did a similar thing this summer, although it didn't seem to work out too well. But the stigma of "being sent home" isn't quite what it was.

I guess Malan would be in competition with Vince and Pope for 1 of 2 spare batsman positions, unless they do decide to send 3 proper openers in which case he's pretty much a duffer.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 1:25 pm

Less so when there's a short one, but I think the Australia squad should have been a bit bigger. I think it helps for competition, but also for harmony. It can't be easy being one of two or three who don't play. 

If Malan is gonna be an overseas specialist, and his bigger problems are considered English conditions, could he open abroad? If Sri Lanka really isn't going to be much joy for the pace men, is an opener spot there something he could do? Probably quite a short-termist solution, saying that

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 5:27 pm

Largely agree Dolphin, but Malans name hasnt cropped up in any of the rumour mills so Id be surprised if he was considered as a partner for Burns ...getting selected for the squad at all is a bit of an outside chance.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by JDizzle on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 11:03 pm

He’s had a poor year with the bat in the CC, as well as being injured for a long while, so no surprise his name hasn’t cropped up but Liam Livingstone averaged 107 in the Lions 2-‘Test’ tour of SL last winter, including two 100s. And then 39 in the One Dayers too.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 11:07 pm

JDizzle wrote:He’s had a poor year with the bat in the CC, as well as being injured for a long while, so no surprise his name hasn’t cropped up but Liam Livingstone averaged 107 in the Lions 2-‘Test’ tour of SL last winter, including two 100s. And then 39 in the One Dayers too.

Good shout JDizzle. But I imagine his injury has cost him a shot this winter.

Should also be noted Jennings averaged 21 on that same tour - another example of this reputation for playing spin well not being backed up by anything...
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 8:02 am

From the Times:

England to call up Rory Burns and select Stuart Broad for Sri Lanka tour

England look set to name the uncapped Surrey opener Rory Burns today in their Test party to tour Sri Lanka, with Stuart Broad also likely to be included despite recent speculation that he might miss out.

Ed Smith, the national selector, will meet James Taylor, his fellow selector, and Joe Root, the captain, at Trent Bridge this morning to finalise the squad, with Trevor Bayliss, the head coach, joining them via Skype from Sydney.

It is thought that there are three issues that they will make final decisions on. First, the top-order batting, with three from Burns, Keaton Jennings, Joe Denly and James Vince likely to make the tour party. Second, whether Ollie Pope should tour — and probably only be a reserve for a middle-order spot — or play for England Lions in the United Arab Emirates against Pakistan. Third, a choice between two uncapped fast bowlers in Warwickshire’s Olly Stone, who is in the one-day international squad, and Somerset’s Jamie Overton.

Somerset’s left-arm spinner, Jack Leach, is set to be recalled after making his Test debut in New Zealand last winter. Denly’s leg spin could be a crucial consideration as England are set to pick only three specialist spinners in Moeen Ali, who is likely to bat at No 3, Adil Rashid and Leach. They may select all three in the first Test at Galle starting on November 6, so Denly may be a useful extra option.

Burns’ sheer weight of runs — with 1,319 he is easily the highest scorer in the County Championship this season — means that he is in line for a first call, with opinions split on whether to retain Jennings after such a poor summer. Denly has not been opening for Kent but has done so in the past, while Vince could also be considered as an opener.

There are concerns about the overseas records of Broad and Chris Woakes, but both are set to be named. Broad injured a rib during the final Test against India this month and is still in pain but the ECB is confident that he will recover in time to join the tour.

Possible squad: J Root, R Burns, K Jennings, J Denly, M Ali, J Bairstow, B Stokes, J Buttler, S Curran, A Rashid, S Broad, J Anderson, C Woakes, J Leach, O Stone. Plus O Pope if 16 selected.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 1:09 pm

Dom Sibley nearing a century against Sussex at Hove to get Warks a draw and promotion. He struggled for runs at Surrey after his double ton as a schoolboy and has only recently come into consistent form for his new county. I therefore don't see him being involved this winter. However, his patient approach to batting is from the Cook school and could see him come into contention next year if he makes a go of it in Division One.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 1:34 pm

Somewhat bemused by this late push for Denly. He doesn't usually open , he has been around for ages without exciting much attention : why is he suddenly flavour of the month ? Just because he can bowl a bit of spin and they have given up on finding any regular openers ?

Not complaining if he gets the nod , mind. Could be a Chris Rogers type pick , perhaps...just a bit surprised.

Seems the bowling is set to be as you were. In fact , few real surprises...Burns - assuming he is there - seems the most meaningful selection for the future.

Of course , The Times could be just dreaming Smile

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 1:47 pm

Seen a few different educated guesses, which is intriguing. All in much of a theme, although really based around whether Pope goes or is part of the Lions, and whether Broad goes. 

Seen:

Jennings
Burns 
Ali
Root
Bairstow 
Stokes
Curran
Rashid 
Anderson
Leach
— —
Denly 
Vince 
Woakes
Stone
Bess


Interesting as I like Bess, although whether four is overkill I don’t know. I am intrigued to Overton so would be sad not to see him,but I imagine my intrigue will go to Stone.

Kind of think Pope would be worth a Lions trip as he surely isn’t ahead of Denly or Vince if they’re being considered, I mean not so far ahead that it’s worth him missing actual game time.

Vince baffles me and I see his inclusion as a slap in the face to Malan. I’d rather see Stoneman, at least to have Burns come in with someone he knows and I also think Stoneman would do a good enough holdover job.

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