England - the winter tours thread

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England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 8:55 am

First topic message reminder :

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses Cool
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 6:09 am

Bowling change does for Jennings as Perera skids one through an attempted cut...gone for a useful 46 and England are 98/4 with still 25 minutes to go to lunch...
Really shouldn't have been looking to cut that , I think. Just too straight , even if it had not kept so low. But it was an innings that i suppose goes some way to showing why they persevered with him for this tour. He will still need more than forties if he's to prolong his career beyond this trip.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 6:11 am

Anyway the hundred is up...though all the "pure batsmen" are out. Up to the wicket keepers and bowlers now...deja vu , anyone ?

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 6:15 am

Oh dear...Ben Stokes goes way too far across to attempt a sweep and is the fourth of five wickets to be out bowled...two for Perera now and at 103/5 England are looking a bit wobbly to say the least...

Pressure on the new man Foakes.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 6:17 am

England 5 wickets down in the first session, 4 bowled, and already praying for rain.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 6:19 am

Happy with the XI - think it was the best one they could have chosen in the circumstances. The performance so far however...well. Not so good
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 6:26 am

107/5 Its no great shock is it.


(OK Jennings getting a decent score)

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 6:38 am

113/5 at lunch. Burns a bit unlucky caught down leg side , Moeen a good ball first up ...but the other three basically got themselves out with poor choices rather than being done by any magic deliveries .

Despite some press suggestions that England needed to bat patiently in Sri Lanka this has been a typical Bayliss/Root style of batting effort. Time - and what these two and professional "rescuer" Sam C can add - will tell how wise (or otherwise) that will prove...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 7:16 am

Those dismissals don't look any better as you watch them back...

If that is Root's idea of "being a bit careful early" then I await with interest his "aggressive" game plan Smile

Seemed as if they were playing in the belief that "one with their name on it " would be coming any minute...but there really wasn't anything menacing happening in that session ; was just poor batting. Granted they scored at a good clip ; but having reached seventy so briskly despite the early wickets there really wasn't any need for all those
risky shots.

Think there will be plenty for the spinners as the match goes on ; but they've pretty much gifted Sri Lanka the first three to straight balls. Will they learn ?

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 7:30 am

Foakes battling hard : six from 35. Herath bowling pretty well : now Dananjaya - who went round the park before lunch - is back on at the other end. Wonder if they will look to get after him again ?
Really need a solid partnership from this pair.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 7:36 am

Rather surprisingly it's Herath off and Lakmal changing ends...think the batsmen may actually prefer that. Can't criticize Chandimal's bowling changes so far though...

126/5 as Foakes collects a welcome boundary.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 7:51 am

Small fightback by the two reserve keepers who are showing more application and patience than the top 4 did.

Talk now is that there will be a full days play. England are in real danger of a result, and realistically its only going to be a bad one unless the middle order really pull off something remarkable. of course thats pretty standard for this England team

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 7:57 am

Dananjaya continues to be expensive...odd that he's bowled such a large % of the overs so far. 0/65 off 12...
These two are playing with a patience not seen much before lunch , while still collecting runs at a reasonable rate....helped by some loose stuff from Akila.
Fifty partnership clap

153/5

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:00 am

Hi foakes folks - some much needed fight from these two after most (? all) of the 5 wickets were gifted away in the first session.

Only seen brief highlights of the moning's play but wasn't so impressed as Alfie by the ball that got Moeen. My initial thought was that he played it too late and got the wrong line. I'll try and look again later.

Bit unlucky dismissal for Burns but truth be told he did sucker himself. Poor approach and shot selection from Root and Stokes in the situation - no sympathy for either at all. More runs than most (? all) of us expected from Jennings although still has to do a lot more to convince.

With 5 having fallen so quickly, the choice of Curran (over mine of Broad) looks handy. However,     although the Surrey youngster is the better batsman, we should still be looking for him to delver some form of decent performance - even a small one - with the ball. Interesting that KP-f  didn't have Broad or Anderson (preferring Woakes)  in his eleven - that is too far for me by some distance although I still understand his reasoning and don't say it is wrong.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:05 am

alfie wrote:
Despite some press suggestions that England needed to bat patiently in Sri Lanka this has been a typical Bayliss/Root style of batting effort.

It never ceases to amaze me how much this leadership team ignores all the things they say themselves.

Theyve made some brave and innovative decisions, some of which (Like bringing back Buttlwer) have paid off...but on the whole the Bayliss era will be remembered for a muddled confused approach to test cricket.
The lack of decent batsmen cant really be laid directly at their door, but the inability they have to play sensibly and the confused inconsistent messages the selection policy has sent out shows a lack of clarity and direction. It does sometimes feel like the leadership team are pulling in different directions and unsure how they want the team to shape up.

When you end up with two all rounders and two keepers (neither of whom is the best batting keeper in the squad) in your top 7, and reliant on an opener who should've been dropped in the previous series, things are never likely to end well regardless of how they approach the game.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:11 am

My Surrey friends will doubtless be pleased to see that Foakes has handled a challenging first Test innings task with calm and common sense...28 of this handy stand ...
...but loses his partner on the cusp of drinks as Buttler edges behind...gone for 38.
Sri Lanka back on top.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:13 am

That is an excellent take by Dickwella to get Buttler caught behind
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:14 am

Dratt! Buttler gone to Perera on the stroke of a drinks break. Ball seemed to be pushed through quicker, excellent catch by Dickwella - you watching MfC? Smile

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:15 am

guildfordbat wrote:Hi foakes folks - some much needed fight from these two after most (? all) of the 5 wickets were gifted away in the first session.

Only seen brief highlights of the moning's play but wasn't so impressed as Alfie by the ball that got Moeen. My initial thought was that he played it too late and got the wrong line. I'll try and look again later.

Bit unlucky dismissal for Burns but truth be told he did sucker himself. Poor approach and shot selection from Root and Stokes in the situation - no sympathy for either at all. More runs than most (? all) of us expected from Jennings although still has to do a lot more to convince.

With 5 having fallen so quickly, the choice of Curran (over mine of Broad) looks handy. However,     although the Surrey youngster is the better batsman, we should still be looking for him to delver some form of decent performance - even a small one - with the ball. Interesting that KP-f  didn't have Broad or Anderson (preferring Woakes)  in his eleven - that is too far for me by some distance although I still understand his reasoning and don't say it is wrong.

I would never have picked Broad for this, he was probably the last choice of the seamers available.
Anderson is good enough to make things happen on these pitches. Curran, Woakes and Broad much less so. Stone has the raw pace, and history shows that can yield results in Sri Lanka...almost all the wickets english seamers ( bar anderson) have taken here have been brisk aggressive bowlers. Woakes is a bit more lively than the others, but his away record is pretty appalling so although I think hes the best batting seamer england have I can see why he wouldnt be selected. Curran does offer the left arm option, which I guess is the justification for him getting the nod. And England really did need a batting 8 with such an inexperienced and fragile top 7. There may even have been a case for picking just two seamers had there been a batsman who deserved a place, but as it is they are short one anyway.
IMO the two seamers most likely to be a threat here are Anderson and Stone. Broad , Curran and Woakes are all likely toothless...but at least the second two can bat. Anderson for his experience was a no brainer, so really it was a toss up between Curran and Woakes for the rearguard game save position.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:24 am

Hey guildford...yes I guess Moeen's wasn't exactly unplayable ; but I thought it was a good one to get first up. And in truth I don't think he's a number three...

I get what Goose is saying about muddled approach. Though I don't think you can complain too much about the batting lineup they've selected here : Pope and Denly as the only alternatives , with YJB (another wk !) unavailable ; and insufficient warm ups to get either of them into much form they didn't have much choice. Still think a bit better shot selection from the top five might have seen , say , 169 for 3 or 4 rather than 6 ...and a different game altogether.

All not lost yet. If they can somehow get this up north of 220 and bowl well they may get a chance to make the third innings count.

Not holding my breath , mind.

Chandimal with what looks like an awkward injury problem...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:35 am

Hi goose - I have mentioned this before so will only quickly go over old ground. My choice of Broad  wasn't so much for him being a major threat but as someone we could (pretty much) rely on to keep things quiet allowing Anderson to concentrate on attacking the batsmen and the spinners (of whom we - and you especially - are not fully convinced) to try their stuff.

Whilst we shouldn't be choosing players in the expectation that they will fail, I feel it's sensible to cover the most likely scenarios. For their wicket taking threat, Stokes, Curran and Rashid (plus perhaps the other two spinners as well) could well go at in excess of 4 per over. Having someone to peg it back is where and why Broad fits in for me.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:42 am

Surprised that we have play after the doomsday forecasts. No surprise that England's brittle batting is being picked off by a superior Sri Lankan side (Herath isn't the one doing the damage, either!).

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:43 am

Guess we will find out about the bowlers soon enough. I truth I'd suggest the pace choices , apart from Jimmy , are likely to be of little relevance : if the the three spinners can't do the job they're in trouble.
Which is why I'm happy enough to see Sam Curran in for this match. I'm certainly not ruling out any of the other three seamers for the other games which might offer them a little more. Not sure I share the goose theory that Stone's pace is likely to be effective though : think these pitches tend to nullify raw speed...the faster bowlers who have done well here have done so mainly because they are very good bowlers , I'd say.

Run rate dropping as Foakes and Curran strive to retrieve the position...At least this session has - so far - seen only one wicket fall ; and it wasn't a throwaway . So maybe they can learn from mistakes ?

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:48 am

alfie wrote:My Surrey friends will doubtless be pleased to see that Foakes has handled a challenging first Test innings task with calm and common sense...28 of this handy stand ...
...but loses his partner on the cusp of drinks as Buttler edges behind...gone for 38.
Sri Lanka back on top.

Hey Alfie - yes, very pleased by Foakes. An impressive level headed performance so far.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:52 am

guildfordbat wrote:Hi goose - I have mentioned this before so will only quickly go over old ground. My choice of Broad  wasn't so much for him being a major threat but as someone we could (pretty much) rely on to keep things quiet allowing Anderson to concentrate on attacking the batsmen and the spinners (of whom we - and you especially - are not fully convinced) to try their stuff.

Whilst we shouldn't be choosing players in the expectation that they will fail, I feel it's sensible to cover the most likely scenarios. For their wicket taking threat, Stokes, Curran and Rashid (plus perhaps the other two spinners as well) could well go at in excess of 4 per over. Having someone to peg it back is where and why Broad fits in for me.

Fair point re economy , guildford. My hope is that Leach will also supply a bit of control . He was serviceable at best in NZ ; but with one Test under his belt he might be a bit more effective here ...and the pitch might end up a bit more like Taunton Smile

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:01 am

Curran saw one he liked then : after an extremely patient start to his innings he has launched Akila very emphatically down the ground...have to say I admire the clean way he hits those . Closing in on 200 now...but they'll want rather more than that.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:04 am

alfie wrote:Guess we will find out about the bowlers soon enough. I truth I'd suggest the pace choices , apart from Jimmy , are likely to be of little relevance : if the the three spinners can't do the job they're in trouble.  
Which is why I'm happy enough to see Sam Curran in for this match. I'm certainly not ruling out any of the other three seamers for the other games which might offer them a little more. Not sure I share the goose theory that Stone's pace is likely to be effective though : think these pitches tend to nullify raw speed...the faster bowlers who have done well here have done so mainly because they are very good bowlers , I'd say.

Run rate dropping as Foakes and Curran strive to retrieve the position...At least this session has - so far - seen only one wicket fall ; and it wasn't a throwaway .  So maybe they can learn from mistakes ?

Would you say Vernon Philander is a good bowler?

Hes taken 1 wicket in 4 innings at Galle.
In the same games Steyn took 11 wickets
In the last one Rabada took 7
In the first one Morkel took 7

Now whilst all 3 of those are pretty top class pace bowlers the difference between their returns and an extremely good medium pacer is startling. Its a small sample yes but surely shows theres something in the idea that if the ball isnt moving them a bit of raw aggression and height is useful even when pitches take the sting out. Its even more the case with the kookabura which is harder to get movement from than the Dukes ball.

For England Harmisson Finn and Gough all did well, the more pedestrian Sidebottom Broad and Hoggard whilst good test bowlers struggled horribly. Anderson is the real outlier in having a reasonable record despite lacking pace.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:06 am

Well a bad morning for England but a better afternoon. They approach Tea on 196 for 6. A score of 300 will be fairly competitive and that is still a possibility. Really handy and accomplished knock by debutant Ben Foakes as he nears his 50.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:12 am

Well as you say , goose ...a fairly small sample. I'm not saying pace is useless here : more that it isn't enough on its own. If Stone were Steyn - fair enough.
But at the moment he's an untried hopeful. So I don't think we can assume he would be any more effective than Curran. He may well get a chance later in the tour anyway.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:15 am

Good session for England that - Buttler/Foakes steadied the ship well before Buttler was very well caught behind off one that skidded on, then Foakes/Curran have continued well.

There is spin already on offer in the pitch - so England do have a real advantage in not having to bat last on here. If they can make 250+ they're in the game at least and it'll be down to Ali/Rashid/Leach to do the bulk of the damage with the ball
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:15 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well a bad morning for England but a better afternoon. They approach Tea on 196 for 6. A score of 300 will be fairly competitive and that is still a possibility. Really handy and accomplished knock by debutant Ben Foakes as he nears his 50.

Yes a good fight back since lunch. Foakes certainly doesn't look out of place...a welcome addition though I guess he is adding to a bit of a log-jam of wicketkeeper-batsmen who want to bat around 6/7 ...

Pity top three batsmen don't turn up so regularly Smile

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:19 am

''What you expect from Test match batsmen in that session'' - my man Key. Exactly.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:24 am

guildfordbat wrote:''What you expect from Test match batsmen in that session'' - my man Key. Exactly.

The joke being none of them are specialist batsmen

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:32 am

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Well a bad morning for England but a better afternoon. They approach Tea on 196 for 6. A score of 300 will be fairly competitive and that is still a possibility. Really handy and accomplished knock by debutant Ben Foakes as he nears his 50.

Yes a good fight back since lunch.  Foakes certainly doesn't look out of place...a welcome addition though I guess he is adding to a bit of a log-jam of wicketkeeper-batsmen who want to bat around 6/7 ...

Pity top three batsmen don't turn up so regularly Smile

Doesn't get away from the log-jam of wicketkeeper-batsmen but might be worth emphasising that Foakes normally bats at 5 for Surrey in the four day game. Not as if Surrey were missing a batsman either last season - Pope was usually at 6.

If you follow any point I'm making there, please tell me! Wink However, possibly food for thought.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:35 am

Shortly after Tea and Ben Foakes nudges a single for a Test match 50 on his debut. Great knock. England 201 for 6.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:35 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Good session for England that - Buttler/Foakes steadied the ship well before Buttler was very well caught behind off one that skidded on, then Foakes/Curran have continued well.

There is spin already on offer in the pitch - so England do have a real advantage in not having to bat last on here. If they can make 250+ they're in the game at least and it'll be down to Ali/Rashid/Leach to do the bulk of the damage with the ball

Local commentators were saying 275 par before the toss. So maybe. (Though some work yet to get there !) But now they're suggesting if the sun comes out batting conditions might be pretty good for the next day or two...
I think an awful lot depends on how England operate as a bowling unit. Fair to say Root has tended to struggle to get it right when things haven't gone easily , so far in his captaincy stint ; so hopefully he has learned from the past. He has variety at his command ; needs to deploy it effectively.

Fifty for Foakes clap

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:37 am

50 for Foakes. clap

An astute knock.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:41 am

Foakes, very, very impressive. England need 300 as a minimum.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:43 am

alfie wrote:

Local commentators were saying 275 par before the toss. So maybe.  (Though some work yet to get there !) But now they're suggesting if the sun comes out batting conditions might be pretty good for the next day or two...
...

And all Duty was worried about last night was that the weather over the 5 days would allow for a toss to guarantee the draw and him cashing in! Very Happy

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:43 am

Guildfod - I note that Foakes bats five for Surrey Smile

Based on that - and this innings - the notion of three wicket keepers occupying positions 5 to 7 is not as ridiculous as it sounds...

But that would involve pushing Stokes and Root both higher...too much ? Something to chew over after this series , I think. Suspect number three remains the spot that will be auctioned throughout these matches in Sri Lanka - and unlikely to be nailed down by anyone.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:54 am

alfie wrote:Guildfod  - I note that Foakes bats five for Surrey Smile

Based on that - and this innings - the notion of three wicket keepers occupying positions 5 to 7 is not as ridiculous as it sounds...

But that would involve pushing Stokes and Root both higher...too much ?  Something to chew over after this series , I think. Suspect number three remains the spot that will be auctioned throughout these matches in Sri Lanka - and unlikely to be nailed down by anyone.

Alfie - as well as playing three keepers, remember that Olly (think it's Olly) is also desperate to see Foakes, Stokes and Woakes in the line up! Very Happy

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:00 am

Ha I remember Olly has been hanging out for that trio...as have some of the commentators , I believe Smile

Might be tricky to fit them all in ? With Curran once again demonstrating his ability at eight it really is getting crowded between five and nine...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:03 am

I've always liked Sam Curran although haven't been such a strong supporter as some. However, he's certainly batting well here. A good innings and a fine partnership with Foakes. Another hour of these two together and it'll be looking very encouraging for us. That said, an hour can be a long time in cricket ....

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:25 am

Not many matches yet : but Curran has consistently done the business with the bat. And some quite useful bowling as well for all the doubts expressed in some quarters re his relative lack of pace.

Yes it's too early to anoint him as The Future : but he could hardly have done more with the opportunities he's had so far to demonstrate that he has (a) considerable ability and (b) importantly , the temperament required to make the most of his skills at this level.

I'm hopeful he will get better. But he's proving rather useful right now.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:35 am

If only we could solve positions 1-3.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by eirebilly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:38 am

What an excellent partnership this has been. 300+ looks very much on the cards now.
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:39 am

eirebilly wrote:What an excellent partnership this has been. 300+ looks very much on the cards now.

Billy!!!
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by eirebilly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:42 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:What an excellent partnership this has been. 300+ looks very much on the cards now.

Billy!!!

Olly!!!
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by eirebilly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:43 am

And I should leave Doh
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:44 am

eirebilly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:What an excellent partnership this has been. 300+ looks very much on the cards now.

Billy!!!

Olly!!!

Sam Curran out, bowled Eirebilly caught Chandimal Wink
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 10:45 am

Drink break does the job for Sri Lanka.... Curran makes one mistake and Akila gets a wicket at last (well paid for in advance !)

England didn't want to lose one just before the new ball. But 253/7 is a pretty good score after being 103/5... and Rashid isn't exactly a rabbit ...

Important last hour.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

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