England - the winter tours thread

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England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 8:55 am

First topic message reminder :

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses Cool
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by VTR on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:23 am

Yes, didn't really doubt it but was getting a bit annoyed as I've got work to do, and it's a bit distracting to have the cricket still going on!

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:33 am

Bairstow MoTM...Foakes MoTS...

Fair enough I think. But I reckon the whole squad can take credit for this result...has been a fine effort all round.
And Joe Root might gain a lot of confidence as captain from this.

West Indies will be a different challenge ; and the team selection will likely have a more familiar shape ...but they're developing a squad full of versatile players so it's looking quite hopeful for the future...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:41 am

Some very interesting calls to make. You would assume Rashid has had his little spell in and done a job, but won't continue. He's done better with the bat this time, but I can't really see how they justify a place in the future ahead of either of the other two. Down to one from now on, I feel the batting gives Mo the edge.

A great stat - Most wickets in 4th innings of Tests won by England:
52 @ 22.48 Jimmy
52 @ 18.19 Mo
48 @ 22.79 Broad
35 @ 15.77 Willis

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Marky on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:49 am

I think Leach has done enough to be first choice spinner, with Moeen an all rounder (as long as his batting picks up)

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:49 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Agree with Duty - Foakes man of the series for me. Not only a great average and amount of runs, but magnificent wicket keeping too.

Although I'd have no qualms if it went to Moeen or Leach too - a good sign when you have many contenders for man of the series Smile

Pleased that MotS went to Foakes. Fully justified for the reasons set out by Olly and Duty.

I also go along with Bairstow getting MotM here. A century is so influential and his in the first innings set the marker in this game. Mind you, Stokes pushed him hard in my book - as Lloyd said in post match interview, ''He's Billy Whizz, he's in everything!''.

Above all, an excellent team effort through the series for which Root should receive a lot of credit with some individual bits of brilliance along the way - the Curran cameo, the Stokes run out, the Jennings -Foakes combo, the Leach run out. That's even before taking your pick of Jennings' own catches - as Ward said, ''No catch at short leg is easy.''

I don't think that Sri Lanka should be too despondent - the players they've lost in recent times is a very big loss and that needs to be factored in. Not just in terms of runs and wickets but also experience and know how. I feel it would help if Dickwella could grow up behind the stumps. That's always been a vital role and even more so with drs nowadays. He displays talent but little nous.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 10:53 am

alfie wrote:Bairstow MoTM...Foakes MoTS...

Fair enough I think.   But I reckon the whole squad can take credit for this result...has been a fine effort all round.
And Joe Root might gain a lot of confidence as captain from this.

West Indies will be a different challenge ; and the team selection will likely have a more familiar shape ...but they're developing a squad full of versatile players so it's looking quite hopeful for the future...

Agree on the MOTM and MOTS - think that's right.

West Indies will be interesting - because they'll have to read the pitches right. You do get a real mixture out there, I'd imagine they'll need two spinners not three however, and might need the pace of a Stone a bit more. Might be worthwhile keeping an eye on WIndies squad selection...if the likes of Bishoo/Warrican are in then we'll be getting the slow low WIndies pitches, if they only go with one spinner and include the likes of Paul/Joseph to aide the seam battery, then we could be getting some more seam friendly pitches.

Good to have tough selection calls because players are playing well - rather than just a dearth of players to select...! Mo has clearly restablished himself as the first spinner on the teamsheet in my eyes, but you'd think Leach has just edged Rashid as the second option - albeit Rashid has averaged 26 with the ball since his recall in the summer, and has made handy contributions with the bat too. So not an easy call!

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 11:10 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Bairstow MoTM...Foakes MoTS...

Fair enough I think.   But I reckon the whole squad can take credit for this result...has been a fine effort all round.
And Joe Root might gain a lot of confidence as captain from this.

West Indies will be a different challenge ; and the team selection will likely have a more familiar shape ...but they're developing a squad full of versatile players so it's looking quite hopeful for the future...

Agree on the MOTM and MOTS - think that's right.

West Indies will be interesting - because they'll have to read the pitches right. You do get a real mixture out there, I'd imagine they'll need two spinners not three however, and might need the pace of a Stone a bit more. Might be worthwhile keeping an eye on WIndies squad selection...if the likes of Bishoo/Warrican are in then we'll be getting the slow low WIndies pitches, if they only go with one spinner and include the likes of Paul/Joseph to aide the seam battery, then we could be getting some more seam friendly pitches.

Good to have tough selection calls because players are playing well - rather than just a dearth of players to select...! Mo has clearly restablished himself as the first spinner on the teamsheet in my eyes, but you'd think Leach has just edged Rashid as the second option - albeit Rashid has averaged 26 with the ball since his recall in the summer, and has made handy contributions with the bat too. So not an easy call!



Yeah the make up of the team is likely to be 2 spinners (Moeen and Leach) and 3-4 seamers dependant on the pitch and how much they want to upset Bairstow vs how much they want to upset Broad/Anderson. And therein again comes the dilema with getting some genuine pace into the side, they may well still end up having to leave out one of the big names. Theres also the Curran/Woakes or neither question.
Its interesting that the selection questions are around the bowling because theres too many good options vs the batting which is more a case of lack of external pressure on places.

This tour has been a fabulous step for England. They are still hiding the gaping holes in their team but winning games despite them. To play spin with some level of success is a rarity for England, and no complete collapses. having a trio of spin bowlers justifying their selection is pretty much a first as far as I can remember. The most gratifying thing to see is that theyve learnt form the previous winters and rather than relying on playing the same cricket they do at home theyve selected a side and adapted their batting according to local conditions.

More weak opposition to come up, and if they can stay as switched on and carefully prepared as they were for this series then they have the tools to win these games. These tourss have perhaps fallen at a good time for them when they are in the process of reshaping the team.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 11:29 am

Pitches in West Indies may vary quite a bit : good thing is this squad has most covered (I'm assuming basically same squad will travel). Not sure they'll want two spinners in all games so the choice could depend a bit on who West Indies line up against them.
I hope they don't go silly on this six bowler caper...the fact that several can bat allows them to do so but I don't think it is (a) often necessary or (b) a good long term plan. In an individual match : fine. But don't do it just for the sake of it...
Basic template for me is the top six (including Stokes) plus keeper and either 3-1 or 2-2 pace/spin. And the actual personnel of that attack might change from match to match.
Should expect to beat West Indies. But they haven't lately , over there ; so no taking them lightly !

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 11:37 am

As to whether these tours have "fallen at a good time for them" : maybe. Good for confidence (assuming continued success in West Indies) ; but how much it will ready them for facing Australian or South African pace attacks on non- Asian pitches remains to be seen. There is some risk they might "lock in" a lineup that looks good ...until they meet Starc Cummins etc at Lord's ...

But I've always said : win the next game. And I'll stick with that. I think we might get a better idea about one or two players in West Indies anyway.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 11:40 am

Yep, I would have thought very much the same squad. Only issue relating to the back up batsman and whether they take 1 or 2 (squad of 16 or 17?) - Denly, Pope, Clarke come to mind.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Duty281 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 12:28 pm

I'm just glad the Windies tour is coming after a decent rest for the English players. England will be strong favourites, but they were in 2009 and 2015 as well, and they didn't come away with a series victory on either occasion.

Agree with the general consensus that Leach has now edged out Rashid as the second spinner, while Moeen's rep has never been higher or more restored.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 11:14 pm

With the ball maybe...but as usual success with one discipline has seen Moeens returns in the other dip. His stock relative to rashid has definately risen but there may still be value in a leggie in future tours with flat wickets

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 9:43 am

Lions 1 day game against Pakistan is underway. After doing well in the 4 day game Billings is left out and Pope is keeping wicket.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 9:47 am

I think the top 3 will stay the same for the West Indies. None of Burns, Jennings or Bairstow are safe for the long-term, but they've all done enough and no-one else really has a chance to play themselves in anyway. Root is obviously set at 4, while 5, 6 and 7 with Stokes, Buttler and Foakes also looks pretty well set in.

The bowlers are more interesting. Anderson will be one of them. Do we think Curran has usurped Broad as the second seamer? Under home conditions you'd possibly find room for them both, but away from home if you need an extra spinner, is Anderson, Curran and Stokes with Ali and Leach a better balanced attack?

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 12:23 pm

For me if Moeen is batting 8 then the 3 bowling slots should go to the best bowlers, I'm not sure Curran is one of those home or away despite his returns against India. They certainly didnt miss the left arm option in the last test, and barely used it in the previous ones. If anything him not being there gave more onus to Stokes to be used, and he delivered more in that first innings than Curran had in the previous 4.
As a home conditions specialist Woakes has been even better in the last couple of seasons than Curran was. For away tours Im still going to bang on about a bit of pace, whether thats for pancakes in the UAE/India or the death traps in Aus England still lack genuine pace and we've seen time and again any medium pacer who lacks the skills of Anderson toiling.
Hes young and he has time to improve but for me theres better bowlers available now, and if England do play 2 spinners then theres not really room for one getting picked on there heroic tail end batting from 9 IMO.

(Fully expect him to now go on to break Andersons test wickets record and open the batting )

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 1:07 pm

Take a brave man to decide Broad wouldn’t make it into an Ashes team. Ali, Stokes, Broad and Anderson are my definites for bowling, so can be a pick from Sam, Woakes, Leach (I suppose) and then anyone with pace who might do well in the future if built now.

This is for the home series later, rather than the Windies in the near future.

If we’re gonna go out there and make swinging English wickets then Woakes seems hard to leave out. Stokes should be able to come in as the aggressive bowler (which he did well away here in Sri Lanka for spells)

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by sirfredperry on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 5:57 pm

If Buttler can be played for his batting rather than his keeping, then so should Bairstow, who, IMHO opinion, should forget all about the wicket-keeping and concentrate on his batting.
Broad, for me, is a definite pick in England and pretty much elsewhere as well. He's a match winner. I thought it was pretty crazy to drop Moeen earlier this year and he should also be a regular. It's good that we're now talking about leaving players out who have done well rather than keeping players in who have under performed.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 9:01 pm

sirfredperry wrote:I
  Broad, for me, is a definite pick in England and pretty much elsewhere as well. He's a match winner. I thought it was pretty crazy to drop Moeen earlier this year and he should also be a regular. It's good that we're now talking about leaving players out who have done well rather than keeping players in who have under performed.
 

When he was dropped Moeen was horrendously underperforming with bat and ball. By your own logic it was the correct choice. His overall career record is still pretty mediocre despite winning his place back as a batsman then doing well with the ball (and horribly with the bat).
Broad has been the least successful of the main 5 England seamers since new zealand, whilst hes done OK and has a good career record (largely at home) hes no longer undroppable. He averages 85 in the West Indies (3 tests played on horrid pitches). At some point other bowlers need to step up and learn how to do what he cant abroad, because hes underperformed for years on unhelpful pitches.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by JDizzle on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 9:37 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
sirfredperry wrote:I
  Broad, for me, is a definite pick in England and pretty much elsewhere as well. He's a match winner. I thought it was pretty crazy to drop Moeen earlier this year and he should also be a regular. It's good that we're now talking about leaving players out who have done well rather than keeping players in who have under performed.
 

When he was dropped Moeen was horrendously underperforming with bat and ball. By your own logic it was the correct choice. His overall career record is still pretty mediocre despite winning his place back as a batsman then doing well with the ball (and horribly with the bat).
Broad has been the least successful of the main 5 England seamers since new zealand, whilst hes done OK and has a good career record (largely at home) hes no longer undroppable. He averages 85 in the West Indies (3 tests played on horrid pitches). At some point other bowlers need to step up and learn how to do what he cant abroad, because hes underperformed for years on unhelpful pitches.

Broad averages less than Anderson outside of England over their careers, and in going back to the series in NZ in 2013 he averages 92 wickets @ 29. He has only averaged above 40 twice in those 9 series (once in this series vs SL where played 1 Test and in the Ashes last winter). This is a pretty impressive record on what are, as you say, unhelpful pitches! Also, he averages 31 in the West Indies in 8 matches...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 8:34 am

JDizzle wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
sirfredperry wrote:I
  Broad, for me, is a definite pick in England and pretty much elsewhere as well. He's a match winner. I thought it was pretty crazy to drop Moeen earlier this year and he should also be a regular. It's good that we're now talking about leaving players out who have done well rather than keeping players in who have under performed.
 

When he was dropped Moeen was horrendously underperforming with bat and ball. By your own logic it was the correct choice. His overall career record is still pretty mediocre despite winning his place back as a batsman then doing well with the ball (and horribly with the bat).
Broad has been the least successful of the main 5 England seamers since new zealand, whilst hes done OK and has a good career record (largely at home) hes no longer undroppable. He averages 85 in the West Indies (3 tests played on horrid pitches). At some point other bowlers need to step up and learn how to do what he cant abroad, because hes underperformed for years on unhelpful pitches.

Broad averages less than Anderson outside of England over their careers, and in going back to the series in NZ in 2013 he averages 92 wickets @ 29. He has only averaged above 40 twice in those 9 series (once in this series vs SL where played 1 Test and in the Ashes last winter). This is a pretty impressive record on what are, as you say, unhelpful pitches! Also, he averages 31 in the West Indies in 8 matches...

Whoops OK he avergaed 80 something in the last series, Im not sure why that other trip didnt turn up in my search!

Ok anyway the following points still remain:
Anderson is the undisputed number 1 seamer home and away for England, hes the one who can make the ball move anywhere and the one youd want the younger one to learn from
Stokes is getting in the side whatever because he bats in the top 5 now (albeit hes not really that good)
Broad has not performed as well recently as the other senior seamers (and its the assertion that players are and should be dropped for not performing that prompted this). And look he did have a good summer, but Anderson Stokes Woakes and Curran all finished with better averages despite him primarily getting the new ball.
Broads record away from home is nowhere near as good as his one at home, and hes never going to be the bowler to make a difference in the toughest tours to India, Australia and the UAE even if he does stay fit enough to be around next time they go there.
The younger players arent going to get any better not playing, and need experience overseas with the Kookabura ball.

I do agree that Broad has been a fine servant for England, and hes prolonged his career a few times when the knives were out and when injuries looked to be getting on top of him. Hes won some big matches over the years with sudden bursts of brilliance. If it hadnt been for Anderson doing even more for even longer then he would be remembered as the number one bowler of his generation, indeed possibly player, for England over his career. I didnt buy the pressure on him over the summer, and didnt think that dropping him at that point was ever realistically in the selectors minds.
But for this winter I'm not convinced that bring both him and Anderson for both tours is necessary or wise in the long term. Not just to rest them but also to help develop the wider pool of talent, especially giving others a chance with the new ball and overseas.

If England want to play two spinners and have Bairstow at 3 they only have room for 3 seamers, and two of those spots are taken. Is broad number 3? Without rubbishing him Im still seeing Broad as no longer undroppable, I don't think thats massively controversial.



In other news the Lions won their rather pointless one day game. Noone whos in danger of troubling the senior squad pre-world cup did anything of note. Lancashire keeper batsman Alex Davies top scored, Pope didnt even bat but did keep. So at least England have a 5th and 6th choice keeper established.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 8:41 am

robbo277 wrote:I think the top 3 will stay the same for the West Indies. None of Burns, Jennings or Bairstow are safe for the long-term, but they've all done enough and no-one else really has a chance to play themselves in anyway. Root is obviously set at 4, while 5, 6 and 7 with Stokes, Buttler and Foakes also looks pretty well set in.

The bowlers are more interesting. Anderson will be one of them. Do we think Curran has usurped Broad as the second seamer? Under home conditions you'd possibly find room for them both, but away from home if you need an extra spinner, is Anderson, Curran and Stokes with Ali and Leach a better balanced attack?

As much as I like Curran, at the moment he isn't in the same league as Broad as a bowler in non home conditions. I think if we're playing three seamers in the West Indies, it will need to be Woakes or Stone as the third seam option - especially as I doubt they'll be swing conditions out there (if it is swinging then Curran plays imo). I would imagine it is Anderson, Stokes, Broad and then Moeen - with the choice being either the extra spinner (Leach or Rashid) or seamer.

It is incredible that next summer our choice for 3rd seamer is likely to be between Woakes/Curran - who will presumably bat at 9. Ridiculous batting depth! (and it's not even at the expense of bowling, because they're the best bowling options really)
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:56 am

I'd imagine the top seven are set for the moment (whether they all survive the WI tour remains to be seen) so we are looking at four other bowlers to join Stokes.
Anderson , obviously. I agree Moeen probably has first option on a spot , although perhaps less so than might once have been as his batting has seemingly both declined and become less vital with all the other options.
I tend to agree with Olly that Broad is likely to be first choice other opener : Goose has a point about blooding newcomers but England aren't so secure as winners everywhere they can mess with the central theme of picking the best XI to win. Maybe the Ireland Test will allow some experimentation...
And I suspect the teams may vary depending on the pitches , such that we might see a fourth seamer ( Woakes , Curran or Stone) in one and a second spinner in another ? Nice to have all options covered !

But anyway someone is bound to get injured...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 1:26 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Yep, I would have thought very much the same squad. Only issue relating to the back up batsman and whether they take 1 or 2 (squad of 16 or 17?) - Denly, Pope, Clarke come to mind.

Not in the know - sorry, Olly! Smile - but there are whispers that Roy is in the selectors' thoughts for the West Indies in place of Denly.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 2:10 pm

I could be wrong, but I felt that the England selectors had initially pencilled in Denly to bat at 3 and provide the third spinner option for the SL Tests. Then Denly not only didn't score any significant runs in the warm-ups, but got absolutely smashed when he was bowling, while Leach bowled tightly in the second warm-up. So England changed their plans. I don't think they ever saw Denly as much more than a stop-gap for this tour, and as such would be quite surprised to see him retained for the WI tour (Denly may continue to feature in the T20 and ODI squads mind).

You can certainly see the temptation to bring Roy in: we know he has the temperament for international cricket, and the recent examples of Buttler and Rashid - seen as white-ball specialists but successfully brought (back) into the Test fold - will be firmly in the selectors minds.

On the team for the WI Tests, you expect the top 8 to be Jennings Burns Bairstow Root Stokes Buttler Moeen Foakes followed by three bowlers. I don't think England are likely to go with three spinners there, so the balance will be either 4+1 or 3+2. I expect Broad and Anderson to both play, which leaves the final spot up for graphs between Woakes/Curran or Rashid/Leach. I don't have a particularly strong view about what England will or should do TBH. The things I'm hoping for from this tour are solid performances, for them to win the series, and for the top 3 to score runs.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 2:26 pm

I agree with that view on Denly. His inclussion at all was very left field. Roy had an excellent cameo in the CC this year and fits with their recent formula of taking guys whove been part of the one day success and challenging them up the order in tests as well as the more aggresssive approach they seem to be shifting toward in tests.
Am I convinced by him as a top order test bat? Not really but not am I by the current 3 entirely.

One things for sure it will set Bairstows ego teitching if he did get in the squad.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 10:49 am

Some surprising statistics here :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/46374261

England ended the year with a record of eight wins, one draw and four defeats, with all the victories coming in the past nine matches.

Their 2018 win percentage (61.5%) is their eighth highest of the 74 years in which they have played at least seven Tests.

Extraordinarily, for a country with such cricketing and financial resources, 2018 was the first year since 2013 in which England have won more Tests than they have lost.



Also points to Buttlers remarkable SR in the last series despite hitting fewer boundaries than he would normally, the remarkably low scoring nature of the recent tests, and of course the ongoing saga of Englands tail bailing them out.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 11:53 am

Worth noting:

Sussex all-rounder @craig_arch (Jofra Archer) available for @englandcricket selection from January.

The @ECB_cricket board has updated regulations for qualification to play international cricket for England.

#bbccricket

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 12:43 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Worth noting:

Sussex all-rounder @craig_arch (Jofra Archer) available for @englandcricket selection from January.

The @ECB_cricket board has updated regulations for qualification to play international cricket for England.

#bbccricket

Fantastic , England could really use another fast medium seamer who can bat a bit. If ony there were a few residency qualified keeper batsmen available too Whistle

Is the assumption with him that hes likely to get capped in the next meaningless T20 game to tie him down and that hes a long way off the other squads currently? Most of his cricket has been T20, but his first class stats are his most impressive
The headlines are pointing to his availability for the world cup, but that would be a hell of thing to pick him for that. hes barely played any 50 overs cricket and as I joked at the start England arent exactly short of players who does what he does. Parachuting him in has the potential to upset the very successful team without adding a great deal to it IMO.
Longer term he could be an all formats player, but its a bit early for him yet.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 1:07 pm

Is he fast medium? Looks like he’s got fast numbers in him, certainly with the white ball. Deliveries clocked at 94mph in t20s.

He’s got to be looked at in squads before the World Cup, regardless of upsetting any apple carts.

And if you’re talking about England wanting express pace to nurture for the future, how long till he’s pushing for there?


Last edited by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 1:15 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 1:08 pm

It’s excellent news - Archer is lightning quick, regularly 90+mph in fact he was clocked regularly hitting 93/94mph during the blast this year - and not only is he fast but with his action he gets swing. As Goose points out he has exceptional first class stats

You can never have too many good players - and the fact they’ve literally altered their residency and qualifications rules for him suggests he’ll be involved sooner rather than later. Guys like Willey and Plunkett are under threat with his addition in the one day setup
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Sat 01 Dec 2018, 11:16 am

Archer will be an interesting addition to the mix. (One might quibble at a rule change that might be thought to be made for one player ?)
Doubt he will make West Indies but a chance for WC ? And a question for Tests thereafter...  Not getting too excited until we see him in full International .But hopeful.

Not sure about the Roy theory : We know he has talent ; but he's been ignored before despite England's top three issues ; he doesn't bat at the top of the order for Surrey in red ball cricket ...and do we really think he's a good prospect in the top three against the likes of Starc and Hazlewood next home Ashes ?   Even in the ODI he is a player who comes off - brilliantly - every few games and registers a lot of low scores in between. Is that what is wanted for England in Tests ? Or do they think he can re-invent himself like Buttler ?  
I guess they need a spare opener/three for West Indies. Just not sure Roy fits the bill...even if Denly doesn't either.  Don't think Pope fits there but there must be someone who actually bats in those positions and makes runs for his County ?  No ?

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Sat 01 Dec 2018, 11:31 am

alfie wrote:Archer will be an interesting addition to the mix. (One might quibble at a rule change that might be thought to be made for one player ?)
Doubt he will make West Indies but a chance for WC ? And a question for Tests thereafter...  Not getting too excited until we see him in full International .But hopeful.

Not sure about the Roy theory : We know he has talent ; but he's been ignored before despite England's top three issues ; he doesn't bat at the top of the order for Surrey in red ball cricket ...and do we really think he's a good prospect in the top three against the likes of Starc and Hazlewood next home Ashes ?   Even in the ODI he is a player who comes off - brilliantly - every few games and registers a lot of low scores in between. Is that what is wanted for England in Tests ? Or do they think he can re-invent himself like Buttler ?  
I guess they need a spare opener/three for West Indies. Just not sure Roy fits the bill...even if Denly doesn't either.  Don't think Pope fits there but there must be someone who actually bats in those positions and makes runs for his County ?  No ?

Gubbins is the only top three player with any vague attempt at having made a decent stab at the last county season/lions chances who hasn't already been tried up there. He was close to getting selected through the summer and for the winter but his stock does seem to have dropped a bit under Smith.

To be fair on the rules thing theyve been talking about it for a while, but it does seem archer was the thing that pushed it over. It only brings them into line with the rest of the world and ICC regulation, previously theyve resisted to stop too many residency qualified players and the situation we have in rugby now.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie on Sun 02 Dec 2018, 7:17 am

Gooseberry wrote:
alfie wrote:Archer will be an interesting addition to the mix. (One might quibble at a rule change that might be thought to be made for one player ?)
Doubt he will make West Indies but a chance for WC ? And a question for Tests thereafter...  Not getting too excited until we see him in full International .But hopeful.

Not sure about the Roy theory : We know he has talent ; but he's been ignored before despite England's top three issues ; he doesn't bat at the top of the order for Surrey in red ball cricket ...and do we really think he's a good prospect in the top three against the likes of Starc and Hazlewood next home Ashes ?   Even in the ODI he is a player who comes off - brilliantly - every few games and registers a lot of low scores in between. Is that what is wanted for England in Tests ? Or do they think he can re-invent himself like Buttler ?  
I guess they need a spare opener/three for West Indies. Just not sure Roy fits the bill...even if Denly doesn't either.  Don't think Pope fits there but there must be someone who actually bats in those positions and makes runs for his County ?  No ?

Gubbins is the only top three player with any vague attempt at having made a decent stab at the last county season/lions chances who hasn't already been tried up there. He was close to getting selected through the summer and for the winter but his stock does seem to have dropped a bit under Smith.

To be fair on the rules thing theyve been talking about it for a while, but it does seem archer was the thing that pushed it over. It only brings them into line with the rest of the world and ICC regulation, previously theyve resisted to stop too many residency qualified players and the situation we have in rugby now.

Yes that's a fair point , goose. Personally I feel if a man has a British passport he should be eligible to play (unless of course he has previously played for another country , in which case there should be a waiting period) . Just that the timing might inspire a bit of (fairly hypocritical) finger pointing from other countries. The Rugby situation seems to breed plenty of that - not least on this site's board !

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Sun 02 Dec 2018, 9:08 pm

Lions got hammered, again only a batsman keeper (Davies) coming out with any real credit.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 9:47 am

Lions struggling again today with only Pope and Clarke scoring significantly. Early breakthroughs for the bowlers but 169 is going to be extremely hard to defend.
Two Mohammed Irfans playing for the home side.
Ive never been a great fan but Mark Wood is the one player whos stood up on this tour, 11 wickets so far. He might make the world cup squad.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger Yesterday at 3:52 pm

Test and ODI squads announced for WI. 

Test squad: Joe Root (Yorkshire) (captain), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), James Anderson (Lancashire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Rory Burns (Surrey), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Sam Curran (Surrey), Joe Denly (Kent), Ben Foakes (Surrey), Keaton Jennings (Lancashire), Jack Leach (Somerset), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), Olly Stone (Warwickshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)

ODI squad: Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) (captain), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Tom Curran (Surrey), Joe Denly (Kent), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), David Willey (Yorkshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham)

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by LondonTiger Yesterday at 3:55 pm

Only change from the test squad originally named for SL tour is Foakes for Pope.

Willey and CurranT replace CurranS and Stone in ODI squad. Not sure why Plunkett is still down as Yorkshire.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by guildfordbat Yesterday at 6:24 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Only change from the test squad originally named for SL tour is Foakes for Pope.

Willey and CurranT replace CurranS and Stone in ODI squad. Not sure why Plunkett is still down as Yorkshire.

Tiger - I was going to ask you that. Sure all formalities of his switch to Surrey have been completed.

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler Yesterday at 7:01 pm

No Jofra then

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by alfie Yesterday at 9:38 pm

So the theory that Roy was being groomed for a top order Test role seems to have been exaggerated. Denly retained as the reserve for those spots...which is probably reasonable as he didn't get much chance to do anything wrong in Sri Lanka. Think the current order is set for now anyway , injuries aside.
What happens next summer is another matter...

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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Yesterday at 9:57 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour
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Re: England - the winter tours thread

Post by Gooseberry Today at 7:39 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.


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