Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

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Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 4:10 pm

I have been away recently, and on my travels I met an Irish rugby fan, we had a few drinks and talked the talk about the Pro14, I was very interested to find out that he shared the same views as me, in fact, he told me that there is quite a lot of people in Ireland who felt the same way, he even guided me to a website that a lot of the Irish fans use, it's called the 1014 rugby. Now you all know my views on here so I am not going to go over the same old again.

There are a lot of interesting articles, and there is one on there that really sparked my interest. It's titled A Guinness Pro14 Shakeup is Badly Needed, and it's written by Sean Devlin, I found myself agreeing with him more often than not, and it got me thinking, what can we do. I suggested to my Irish friend that perhaps we should bring in a salary cap for the Pro14, but he insisted that the IRFU would never agree to it. So what suggestions would you make to counter what is being said ? There are also some very interesting comments below the article.

I like the idea of less games, and more stars playing, as I think that the Pro14 should not be played during internationals, but I do think that my idea of salary cap has legs, we are the only league that doesn't have one, perhaps it's time. Although this was written before the conferences had a chance to settle, but there are some very interesting points made.

I did not know that a lot of Irish supporters felt this way.

Please read the article below:-

http://the1014.com/a-guinness-pro14-shakeup-is-badly-needed/

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by SecretFly on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 4:45 pm

Less games?  Said it often enough to repeat it here.  Yes.

But that was doable before if we had just stuck to League leader winning the League each year.  But fans didn't want that.  No point in saying some fans want less Club games if most fans seem to want more of them.

I contributed to a topic on a similar issue concerning a Global Calendar and it seemed people there wanted International to take the hit in the number of games per year, not club.

So I'd be for less games but I think that opinion is very much a minority one.

Salary Cap?

Again, we'd find common ground on a salary cap if such a cap didn't obstruct a Pro14 side's competitiveness in Europe.  If I hear that European Rugby is not the issue nor should it be an issue in considering an salary cap exclusive to Pro14 then I'd say the debate is obsolete because like it or not, Pro14 sides operate in two spheres, like operating in two sphere and their fans love operating in those two spheres.  So you can't compromise or sacrifice competitiveness in Europe to level the playing field of Pro14.

Therefore, any Salary Cap should be weighted on an average European Level (a cap that allows Pro14 sides to at least chase the wages offered by Top14 and English Leagues.

OR................. if that is seen as elitist in Pro14 terms, if some fans want a sub-European Rugby standard contest, then Pro14 sides could maybe look at having Caps linked specifically to Pro14 games.... and Caps then linked to Europe; ie.  23 players for a Pro14 game whose combined salary would not exceed A, and then 23 players for a European game that could exceed A.
That might still allow BIG players to appear in Pro14 games but it would still require rotation to allow it to happen.
I think the one thing that Cap proponents never understand is that you can't make players accept contracts.  They'll play where they feel the salary respects their skills.  If they don't get it, they'll leave.....

and then..................... and then............................... where's the argument?............... where's the star players that everyone supposedly wants to see.  Star Welsh players returned to Wales because Wales set in motion procedures that allowed them to come back (pay hikes)

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Brendan on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 8:55 pm

Bring on a Salary Cap, minimum of 5m max 50m. And anyone to spends over 50m has to join one of the other leagues. Anyone who spends under it has to provide 9 league points to all teams who meet the minimum standard.

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 9:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I have been away recently, and on my travels I met an Irish rugby fan, we had a few drinks and talked the talk about the Pro14, I was very interested to find out that he shared the same views as me, in fact, he told me that there is quite a lot of people in Ireland who felt the same way, he even guided me to a website that a lot of the Irish fans use, it's called the 1014 rugby. Now you all know my views on here so I am not going to go over the same old again.

There are a lot of interesting articles, and there is one on there that really sparked my interest. It's titled A Guinness Pro14 Shakeup is Badly Needed, and it's written by Sean Devlin, I found myself agreeing with him more often than not, and it got me thinking, what can we do. I suggested to my Irish friend that perhaps we should bring in a salary cap for the Pro14, but he insisted that the IRFU would never agree to it. So what suggestions would you make to counter what is being said ? There are also some very interesting comments below the article.

I like the idea of less games, and more stars playing, as I think that the Pro14 should not be played during internationals, but I do think that my idea of salary cap has legs, we are the only league that doesn't have one, perhaps it's time. Although this was written before the conferences had a chance to settle, but there are some very interesting points made.

I did not know that a lot of Irish supporters felt this way.

Please read the article below:-

http://the1014.com/a-guinness-pro14-shakeup-is-badly-needed/
You didn't know or you chose to ignore the many times it has been pointed out to you in the past on here by myself and I'm sure many others.

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:19 am

Why should a salary cap be brought in?

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:22 am

There are benefits. Mainly to try and keep the group of teams all competitive.

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:27 am

So all the teams in England and France are all competitive with each other in their respective leagues?

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:39 am

No. Hence try. It keeps the gap closer than if you had no cap but as stated on the other thread I personally thinks it's very hard to enforce and there's fewer complications implementing this in a league such as england rather than the pro 12.

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Brendan on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:57 am

The gap between min and max spend would have to be very small for it to work.

And where would all these better players come from. All the best players are in Ireland bare people who don't fit in the unofficail max wage the Irish have. So the Irish teams would have to get more NIQ people.
Scotland would have to let more players go overseas as Glasgow's bill would need to reduce.
Dragon would need to fill their team with NWQ players which I am sure the WRU would love.


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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 12:14 pm

The problem is that the real shake up needed will never happen - i.e. for the Pro14 to merge with the Premiership in a two or three division single league.

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 12:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. Hence try. It keeps the gap closer than if you had no cap but as stated on the other thread I personally thinks it's very hard to enforce and there's fewer complications implementing this in a league such as england rather than the pro 12.
Try something that has proven to never work?

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 1:07 pm

I'm simply talking about the reason it's implemented leinster. I can't see it working at all in the pro 12. I think to an extent it's worked in the Gallagher prem
but teams have recently cheated and got way with it.

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Brendan on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 1:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm simply talking about the reason it's implemented leinster. I can't see it working at all in the pro 12. I think to an extent it's worked in the Gallagher prem
but teams have recently cheated and got way with it.

I think we all agree that Exeter run a profit, keep the salary cap and are a well run club. Yet they are so far ahead of everyone except Sarries.

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 1:49 pm

I agree with the thrust of Sean’s argument about further changes to the PRO14 Championship.

The first step is to acknowledge that it is no longer a league where every team plays the other home and away. It’s transformed itself into a conference style Championship and for a lot of reasons, this makes a lot of sense in growing the game, expansion of teams, and creating more revenue.

The plan for the PRO14 is to expand further with more teams coming in 2020, and consequently reducing the amount of games per season. The ideal number I think is 16 rounds plus finals which takes games out of the test windows completely. Two conferences of 8 teams with plus 2 cross conference derbies would provide this with the top 3 from each conference going into finals series. The increase in teams and TV sponsorship revenue would compensate for reduction in game/gate revenues.

There are also discussions underway to change the timing of the European Cup with potentially all the pool games being played during December and January including possibly the quarter-finals before the start of the Six Nations. The 6N CEO has indicated that moving the start of the Six Nations to a week later in February would not be a problem and could facilitate this.

With the new global season coming into play in 2020, this would see the PRO14/16 season start in late September with say 6 rounds being played before the new start time of the November Internationals in the first 3 weeks of November. This would be followed by 2 more league games/derbies and then 6 weeks of European Cup games plus quarter-finals. (An added complication here would be if SA teams are allowed enter the comp, then travel and heat in SA would have to be considered.)

The Six Nations would follow this, finishing in third week of March. And then the remainder of the PRO14 and English Premiership for 13 weeks until 3rd weekend of June with weekends for the semi-final and final of the European Cup slotted in. The inevitable ringfenced, relegation-free and probably 14-team English Premiership in 2020 would schedule differently except for the common blocks of tests and European games.

Lastly, the B&I Cup and Anglo-Welsh Cup would be dropped in favour of a proper B&I development Cup comp to be played by U23s senior and academy players during the test windows using provincial A sides, Scottish Super Six and new Welsh U23 teams along with equivalent from Premiership teams.

Simple really.
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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by The Oracle on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 1:54 pm

Pot Hale wrote:I agree with the thrust of Sean’s argument about further changes to the PRO14 Championship.

The first step is to acknowledge that it is no longer a league where every team plays the other home and away. It’s transformed itself into a conference style Championship and for a lot of reasons, this makes a lot of sense in growing the game, expansion of teams, and creating more revenue.

The plan for the PRO14 is to expand further with more teams coming in 2020, and consequently reducing the amount of games per season. The ideal number I think is 16 rounds plus finals which takes games out of the test windows completely. Two conferences of 8 teams with plus 2 cross conference derbies would provide this with the top 3 from each conference going into finals series. The increase in teams and TV sponsorship revenue would compensate for reduction in game/gate revenues.

There are also discussions underway to change the timing of the European Cup with potentially all the pool games being played during December and January including possibly the quarter-finals before the start of the Six Nations. The 6N CEO has indicated that moving the start of the Six Nations to a week later in February would not be a problem and could facilitate this.

With the new global season coming into play in 2020, this would see the PRO14/16 season start in late September with say 6 rounds being played before the new start time of the November Internationals in the first 3 weeks of November. This would be followed by 2 more league games/derbies and then 6 weeks of European Cup games plus quarter-finals. (An added complication here would be if SA teams are allowed enter the comp, then travel and heat in SA would have to be considered.)

The Six Nations would follow this, finishing in third week of March. And then the remainder of the PRO14 and English Premiership for 13 weeks until 3rd weekend of June with weekends for the semi-final and final of the European Cup slotted in. The inevitable ringfenced, relegation-free and probably 14-team English Premiership in 2020 would schedule differently except for the common blocks of tests and European games.

Lastly, the B&I Cup and Anglo-Welsh Cup would be dropped in favour of a proper B&I development Cup comp to be played by U23s senior and academy players during the test windows using provincial A sides, Scottish Super Six and new Welsh U23 teams along with equivalent from Premiership teams.

Simple really.


Not sure if I'm reading your post incorrectly (good chance of that!) but the B&I Cup and Anglo Welsh Cup have already been scrapped.
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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:44 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I agree with the thrust of Sean’s argument about further changes to the PRO14 Championship.

The first step is to acknowledge that it is no longer a league where every team plays the other home and away. It’s transformed itself into a conference style Championship and for a lot of reasons, this makes a lot of sense in growing the game, expansion of teams, and creating more revenue.

The plan for the PRO14 is to expand further with more teams coming in 2020, and consequently reducing the amount of games per season. The ideal number I think is 16 rounds plus finals which takes games out of the test windows completely. Two conferences of 8 teams with plus 2 cross conference derbies would provide this with the top 3 from each conference going into finals series. The increase in teams and TV sponsorship revenue would compensate for reduction in game/gate revenues.

There are also discussions underway to change the timing of the European Cup with potentially all the pool games being played during December and January including possibly the quarter-finals before the start of the Six Nations. The 6N CEO has indicated that moving the start of the Six Nations to a week later in February would not be a problem and could facilitate this.

With the new global season coming into play in 2020, this would see the PRO14/16 season start in late September with say 6 rounds being played before the new start time of the November Internationals in the first 3 weeks of November. This would be followed by 2 more league games/derbies and then 6 weeks of European Cup games plus quarter-finals. (An added complication here would be if SA teams are allowed enter the comp, then travel and heat in SA would have to be considered.)

The Six Nations would follow this, finishing in third week of March. And then the remainder of the PRO14 and English Premiership for 13 weeks until 3rd weekend of June with weekends for the semi-final and final of the European Cup slotted in. The inevitable ringfenced, relegation-free and probably 14-team English Premiership in 2020 would schedule differently except for the common blocks of tests and European games.

Lastly, the B&I Cup and Anglo-Welsh Cup would be dropped in favour of a proper B&I development Cup comp to be played by U23s senior and academy players during the test windows using provincial A sides, Scottish Super Six and new Welsh U23 teams along with equivalent from Premiership teams.

Simple really.


Not sure if I'm reading your post incorrectly (good chance of that!) but the B&I Cup and Anglo Welsh Cup have already been scrapped.  

You’re right.  I re-posted what I wrote last March.    How prescient of me.  Wink. Except the bit about involvement of the Premiership teams.
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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by The Oracle on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 5:53 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:I agree with the thrust of Sean’s argument about further changes to the PRO14 Championship.

The first step is to acknowledge that it is no longer a league where every team plays the other home and away. It’s transformed itself into a conference style Championship and for a lot of reasons, this makes a lot of sense in growing the game, expansion of teams, and creating more revenue.

The plan for the PRO14 is to expand further with more teams coming in 2020, and consequently reducing the amount of games per season. The ideal number I think is 16 rounds plus finals which takes games out of the test windows completely. Two conferences of 8 teams with plus 2 cross conference derbies would provide this with the top 3 from each conference going into finals series. The increase in teams and TV sponsorship revenue would compensate for reduction in game/gate revenues.

There are also discussions underway to change the timing of the European Cup with potentially all the pool games being played during December and January including possibly the quarter-finals before the start of the Six Nations. The 6N CEO has indicated that moving the start of the Six Nations to a week later in February would not be a problem and could facilitate this.

With the new global season coming into play in 2020, this would see the PRO14/16 season start in late September with say 6 rounds being played before the new start time of the November Internationals in the first 3 weeks of November. This would be followed by 2 more league games/derbies and then 6 weeks of European Cup games plus quarter-finals. (An added complication here would be if SA teams are allowed enter the comp, then travel and heat in SA would have to be considered.)

The Six Nations would follow this, finishing in third week of March. And then the remainder of the PRO14 and English Premiership for 13 weeks until 3rd weekend of June with weekends for the semi-final and final of the European Cup slotted in. The inevitable ringfenced, relegation-free and probably 14-team English Premiership in 2020 would schedule differently except for the common blocks of tests and European games.

Lastly, the B&I Cup and Anglo-Welsh Cup would be dropped in favour of a proper B&I development Cup comp to be played by U23s senior and academy players during the test windows using provincial A sides, Scottish Super Six and new Welsh U23 teams along with equivalent from Premiership teams.

Simple really.


Not sure if I'm reading your post incorrectly (good chance of that!) but the B&I Cup and Anglo Welsh Cup have already been scrapped.  

You’re right.  I re-posted what I wrote last March.    How prescient of me.  Wink. Except the bit about involvement of the Premiership teams.


Cracking foresight there, Pot! Do you happen to have lottery numbers for tomorrow to hand??? Very Happy
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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 6:24 pm

Stop falling for Pot's guff. He's secretly chief financial advisor to the Pro14. He told me so when I was chairing a meeting of the Ref Rongdoing Coverup Committee (RRCC)

OOPS!!!!

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 8:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:Stop falling for Pot's guff.  He's secretly chief financial advisor to the Pro14.  He told me so when I was chairing a meeting of the Ref Rongdoing Coverup Committee (RRCC)

OOPS!!!!

That’s an outrageous schlurr.

I wrote that post underneath the article that Dowlais is talking about.
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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 8:03 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Stop falling for Pot's guff.  He's secretly chief financial advisor to the Pro14.  He told me so when I was chairing a meeting of the Ref Rongdoing Coverup Committee (RRCC)

OOPS!!!!

That’s an outrageous schlurr.  

I wrote that post underneath the article that Dowlais is talking about.

It's a bit early still for schlurr

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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by The Oracle on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 8:05 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Stop falling for Pot's guff.  He's secretly chief financial advisor to the Pro14.  He told me so when I was chairing a meeting of the Ref Rongdoing Coverup Committee (RRCC)

OOPS!!!!

That’s an outrageous schlurr.  

I wrote that post underneath the article that Dowlais is talking about.


Isn’t schlurr that pretend alcoholic drink given out to kids at parties to make them feel like they’re joining in with the p*ssed up relatives?! That was certainly a feature of my childhood anyway Shocked
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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 12:56 am

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Stop falling for Pot's guff.  He's secretly chief financial advisor to the Pro14.  He told me so when I was chairing a meeting of the Ref Rongdoing Coverup Committee (RRCC)

OOPS!!!!

That’s an outrageous schlurr.  

I wrote that post underneath the article that Dowlais is talking about.


Isn’t schlurr that pretend alcoholic drink given out to kids at parties to make them feel like they’re joining in with the p*ssed up relatives?! That was certainly a feature of my childhood anyway Shocked

I never knew.
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Re: Changes needed for the Pro14 ?

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