Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

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Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 12:33 pm

I found this tweet very interesting. Some detail on how Unions grow the game compared to privately owned clubs:

https://twitter.com/T2Rugby/status/1047802729341571073

[Sevu Reece not signing for Connacht] means not a single player from a Tier 2 nation is playing professionally in Ireland this season. Only Tier 1 nation where that is the case. By contrast, the Top 14 has 100+. As noted repeatedly if everyone follows that Irish model global game resembles cricket.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 1:09 pm

The 14 clubs in the top 14 have more tier 2 players than the 4 clubs in Ireland, who'd have thought? Relying on another country to bring through your players is not a sustainable way to compete at the top level of any sport, just look at the Irish football team. Not to mention the difficulty that tier 2 nations have when trying to get their players released for internationals.

The Fijian Drua will do a lot more for the game in Fiji than having Sevu Reece playing over here. The new Asian pacific competition will feature a new professional PI team too.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 1:16 pm

A union run structure prioritises home players and imported projects while a club run structure looks at cheap imports. What a shocker.


Until Fiji has an economy that can sustain wages even close to those being paid elsewhere, we will continue to see rather a lot of econmic migrants from the Fijian rugby base. Guys playing for the Drua will probably see it as a way to put themselves in the shop window and secure a move that will help them take care of their families.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 1:22 pm

LondonTiger wrote:A union run structure prioritises home players and imported projects while a club run structure looks at cheap imports. What a shocker.


Until Fiji has an economy that can sustain wages even close to those being paid elsewhere, we will continue to see rather a lot of econmic migrants from the Fijian rugby base. Guys playing for the Drua will probably see it as a way to put themselves in the shop window and secure a move that will help them take care of their families.
It also doesn't help when players like Alivereti Raka declares for France despite the FFR saying they won't cap anymore "foreign" players. This new Asian Pacific competition will be interesting, first prize is apparently 1 million dollars. I'm not sure if Fijian is entering their own team or its a combined PI team but there will definitely be some kind of PI team.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 10:09 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:I found this tweet very interesting. Some detail on how Unions grow the game compared to privately owned clubs:

https://twitter.com/T2Rugby/status/1047802729341571073

[Sevu Reece not signing for Connacht]  means not a single player from a Tier 2 nation is playing professionally in Ireland this season. Only Tier 1 nation where that is the case. By contrast, the Top 14 has 100+. As noted repeatedly if everyone follows that Irish model global game resembles cricket.

This is a perverse way of drawing attention to the issue of lack of Tier 2 players playing in Ireland. If a Tier 2 player had permanently crippled someone or been caught for drug possession, or some other crime, would it still be okay to make this link?

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Brendan on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 11:32 am

Classic not mentioning why his contract was cancelled. If he had been signed I am sure there would have been an article on it.

Ireland's model is simple
1. Have as many teams as you can support (4)
2. Fill them with as many local players as meet the standard to keep the fan base (growing each year)
3. Import players of high standards from overseas from any nation (limited for three of the teams to 4 players)

I don't remember the IRFU wanting to get rid of that Fijian Leinster had for years who they brought back they loved so much. Irish players have improved so Connacht don't have all the imports they use to.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Brendan on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 11:53 am

Tier 2 nations are that because they might have at most 30 good players. If the T14 take so many how is anyone else going to get any that are good enough. Unless you think the Pro14 teams should hire substandard players.

A lot of the Samoa and Tonga squad are born in NZ and play through the parent rule. As a result most of them play in NZ Super Rugby teams.

Are we only saying Fiji are tier 2 because they aren't in the RC or 6N. They have been in the top 10 for at least 4 years. Surely the new fancy 12 tournament will be tier 1 (currently Fiji, Japan & Tonga) and the second level will be tier 2 (italy).

Also to hire players based on nationality is racist and us Irish only see the skills level as merit not their nation of birth or declared for sport.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by The Oracle on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 1:10 pm

I think rather than looking at why nations like Ireland aren’t doing it we need to look at why France are. I refuse to believe they are doing it from the bottoms of their hearts in order to grow the game. Rather, to support a pro league with 14 sides a huge amount of players is needed. Nations like Ireland and Wales manage to provide enough pro players for only 4 sides with a few (more so for Wales) foreign players added in. To cover 14 sides requires local players plus a lot of outside help. They simply wouldn’t be able to fill the sides and allow them to compete to a high enough standard if they just filled the teams with French players. No nation, in my opinion, can produce 40 (squad size) x 12 to 14 teams worth of players from within the population. Even the most rugby mad country in the planet only has 5 pro teams made up of players mostly from the country. No way NZ could do 12-14 teams, and they’re the ones who can produce more top quality players than anyone.

So France does this to fill the teams, rather than some philanthropic move to grow the game and give opportunities to tier two nations. And Ireland doesn’t so much because they do not have the space and therefore do not have the need to do it, but when they do they do (e.g. Leinster and Nacewa).
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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 4:14 pm

Nacewa was born and grew up in New Zealand.

Vakh Abdaladze was born in Georgia.
Luke McGrath born in Canada
Niyi Adeolokun born in Nigeria
Joey Carbery born in NZ
Bundee Aki born in NZ
CJ Stander born in SA
Jarrad Butler in NZ
Quinn Roux in SA
Ultan Dillane in France
Joe Maksymiw in England
Alex Wootton in Eng
Kieran Marmion in Eng
Will Addison in Eng
Haley in Eng
James Cannon in Eng
James Lowe in NZ
Joe Tomane in NZ
Scott Fardy in Aus
Jean Kleyn in SA
Chris Cloete in SA
Jaco Taute in SA
Rob Herring in SA

Plenty of Tier 2 nations there....



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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by SecretFly on Sat 06 Oct 2018, 10:41 pm

We're Tier 10 in virtually every other sport on the planet so being 'guilty' of having only Tier 1 rugby players plying their trade in Ireland? In the words of that great Republican Senator, Lindsey Graham, "I don't give a schidt."

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by profitius on Tue 09 Oct 2018, 10:29 pm

Plenty of Irish involvement in the new American League. Irish owner of the new New York side and plenty of players going there and playing for the USA. AJ McGinty being one.


SecretFly wrote:We're Tier 10 in virtually every other sport on the planet so being 'guilty' of having only Tier 1 rugby players plying their trade in Ireland?  In the words of that great Republican Senator, Lindsey Graham, "I don't give a schidt."


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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 8:04 am

Pot Hale wrote:Nacewa was born and grew up in New Zealand.  

Vakh Abdaladze was born in Georgia.
Luke McGrath born in Canada
Niyi Adeolokun born in Nigeria
Joey Carbery born in NZ
Bundee Aki born in NZ
CJ Stander born in SA
Jarrad Butler in NZ
Quinn Roux in SA
Ultan Dillane in France
Joe Maksymiw in England
Alex Wootton in Eng
Kieran Marmion in Eng
Will Addison in Eng
Haley in Eng
James Cannon in Eng
James Lowe in NZ
Joe Tomane in NZ
Scott Fardy in Aus
Jean Kleyn in SA
Chris Cloete in SA
Jaco Taute in SA
Rob Herring in SA

Plenty of Tier 2 nations there....





Laugh

How many of those have declared for Ireland ?

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by SecretFly on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 11:48 am

We're a pluralist society.... what can we say? We got class. Diversity is the nu black, innit?

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Brendan on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 12:36 pm

The Pro 14 believes in developing Tier 2 players at home. Hence why the Pro 14 would happily add the national team of all the B6N teams if we thought they would be competitive and financially sustainable. If we were told the Pro14 was becoming the Pro 20 for 5 years and funding was in place for each of the teams to survive and they had set up an academy system would we be upset. We could then do 2 leagues of 10 and would make the quarters very interesting.

Realisicly I would like a Pro14 Development league set up and funded by WR with a team for each of B6N, North Wales, Scotland 3rd, Italy 3rd, Morocco. Play 3 years if teams meet the pre decided standard they go up. WR help fund some of the money for the tier 2 countries. I am sure the King of Morooco could find some funds and they are as easy to get to as eastern Europe.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by SecretFly on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 12:45 pm

Who is going to be watching all this rugby though? We're already told that many Welsh people won't even watch their Regions. Money won't come to any league unless it can market itself and you don't market yourself in the 21st century unless you are broadcast.

So many thoughts and ideas on more and more inter-mixing Leagues and competitions in Europe and elsewhere - but broadcasting networks simply won't have the interest to televise more and more and more of the stuff when a day is only 24 hours long and the Sharp Shooting Hillbilly Granny League is also fighting for air time.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Brendan on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 12:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:Who is going to be watching all this rugby though?  We're already told that many Welsh people won't even watch their Regions.  Money won't come to any league unless it can market itself and you don't market yourself in the 21st century unless you are broadcast.  

So many thoughts and ideas on more and more inter-mixing Leagues and competitions in Europe and elsewhere - but broadcasting networks simply won't have the interest to televise more and more and more of the stuff when a day is only 24 hours long and the Sharp Shooting Hillbilly Granny League is also fighting for air time.  

I am sure the rights would be the same as the current B6Ns. As an Irish people we both understand that if you are winning people watch. It would be big for the rugby communities in those countries.

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 4:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Nacewa was born and grew up in New Zealand.....  



Plenty of Tier 2 nations there....





Laugh

How many of those have declared for Ireland ?

We also have a Welsh coach and referee if that helps.

Edit - actually - I left out a few - here's the updated player list including academy and marked * those who have been senior capped for Ireland. (15 from 51 in total I think) and academy players §.  I've also marked ~~ players capped for other countries.  Y/P/GP - moved when young (under 18) and/or has Irish parents/grandparents.

Misc - 8
Jordi Murphy - Spain* Y/P
Luke McGrath - Canada* Y/P
Niyi Adeolokun - Nigeria* Y
Ultan Dillane - France* Y/P
Vakh Abdaladze - Georgia Y
Jeremy Loughman - USA Y/P
Kyle Godwin - Zimbabwe - ~~ AU
Henry Speight - Fiji ~~ AU

South Africa - 14

Quinn Roux *
CJ Stander *
Rob Herring * GP
Jean Kleyn
Chris Cloete
Arno Botha
Wiehaan Herbst
Schalk van der Merwe
Louis Ludik
Jean Dessel ~~ SA
Marcel Coetzee ~~SA
Jaco Taute ~~ SA
Kenyon Knox §
Matt More §

England - 14

Kieran Marmion * P
Kieran Treadwell * P
Alex Wootton * (sevens) P
Sammy Arnold P
Ciaran Parker P
Joe Maksymiw GP
Will Addison GP
Mike Haley P
James Cannon P
James Mitchell P
Peter Browne P
Billy Burns GP
iwan Hughes § GP
Aaron O'Sullivan § GP

New Zealand - 11

Joey Carbery * Y/P
Bundee Aki *
Michael Bent * GP
Rodney Ah You *
Tyler Bleyendaal
Jarrad Butler
James Lowe
Jamison Gibson-Park
Tom McCartney
Dominic Robertson-McCoy GP
Joe Tomane ~~ AU

Australia - 4

Finlay Bealham* Y/GP
Scott Fardy ~~ AU
David Horowitz
Colby Fa'ainga'a


Last edited by Pot Hale on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 6:11 pm; edited 9 times in total
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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by marty2086 on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 4:11 pm

Wasn't Henry Speight born in Fiji?

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 5:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:Wasn't Henry Speight born in Fiji?

You're right - he was.
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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 5:21 pm

Thats not the point I was trying to make though. Ireland have done nothing wrong in capping those players, good on them for identifying them and giving them their chance. Unless I have the original thread wrong, wasn't this about helping unions grow ?

If so, how is capping players from other countries helping the unions from where they are born ?

That is more of a hindrance to the other unions than any help, isn't it ?

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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 5:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Thats not the point I was trying to make though. Ireland have done nothing wrong in capping those players, good on them for identifying them and giving them their chance. Unless I have the original thread wrong, wasn't this about helping unions grow ?

If so, how is capping players from other countries helping the unions from where they are born ?

That is more of a hindrance to the other unions than any help, isn't it ?

Depends on how you look at it, LD.    I'd reckon if 95% of the uncapped players from SA, Aus, Eng and NZ had been called up by their country instead, they wouldn't be in the list or playing in Ireland.  But I don't think any of them were deemed good enough.   The miscellaneous uncapped nationalities all moved to Ireland at some point.

There's very few foreign cap (non-Ireland eligible) players in Irish rugby - maybe 5 or 6 - even though the quota guidelines allow 12.
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Re: Interesting info on tier 2 players at clubs in Europe

Post by Brendan on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 8:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Thats not the point I was trying to make though. Ireland have done nothing wrong in capping those players, good on them for identifying them and giving them their chance. Unless I have the original thread wrong, wasn't this about helping unions grow ?

If so, how is capping players from other countries helping the unions from where they are born ?

That is more of a hindrance to the other unions than any help, isn't it ?

It helps because the Tier 2 Nations can have players playing at the higher level of Tier 1. If WR were serious about helping Tier 2 and those Unions wanted to help themselves they would have. The PIs big problem is corruption and mismanagement. If they fixed that they would be a lot better and the WR would be able to give them money that would be used for the team.

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