EPCR Glasgow Warriors v Saracens Sunday 14th October

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Post by BigGee on Mon 08 Oct 2018, 11:12 am

First topic message reminder :

Glasgow Warriors v Saracens
Scotstoun Stadium
Glasgow

Sunday 14th October
KO 15.15

Live on BT Sports

Well it does not really get any harder for Glasgow than this, an opening fixture against the two time Euro champs and probably the co-favourites to win this year, who have been in pretty awesome form this year and who gave Glasgow a bit of a lesson on our one and only quarter fibal appearance a couple of years ago!

Still after taking a very deep breath and realising what we are up against you do realise that there is always hope.

If you are going to play them, best play them first up and at home when there may be a little bit of euro rust and an awareness that they under performed (by their own standards last year).

Having said that, if Glasgow are under the impression that Sarries may not turn up, they are probably in for a very long afternoon. This is a game they are going to have to win and not just expect Sarries to lose.

Glasgow can cut any team apart when they string together their attack, but to beat Sarries, probably the best defensive team in Europe, they are going to have to put together an 80 minute effort that we have not really seen for a couple of years from this team. It has been there in patches, usually against better teams but one half just won't do it this time, it needs to be for the whole game and that is both going to be tough and somewhat out of character from what we have witnessed so far this season.

Injuries to Hoggy and Zander Fagerson apart we go into the same in reasonable shape. We have won our last two games and unlike last year when we started off our campaign with a long away trip to Exeter on the back of a South African trip (and consequently looked knackered) DR has been able to rest key players ahead of the game, so no excuses on that front this time around. Glasgow will also be clear underdogs and in truth there is not much expectation on us to win the game, this could also potentially play into our favour. WE also do have a few of our flair players coming into a rich vein of form, which is promising.

Whatever way it pans out, it should be a great sunday afternoon at Scotstoun. Here is my stab at the team:

Kibble
Brown
Rae
Gray
Harley
Wilson
Fagerson M
Gibbins
Horne
Hastings
Seymour
Dunbar
Jones H
DTH
Jackson

Allen
Turner
Nicol
Cummings
Ashe
Price
Horne
Niko



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Post by BigGee on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 9:40 am

Big Jim Hamilton's view on the game today in the Sunday Times



If Glasgow beat Saracens today — and it’s definitely possible — it will not be one of those old-school ambush jobs we’ve seen when English teams arrive half-baked.

I daresay opposition complacency is part of the reason why Warriors have won eight of their past nine home games against Premiership sides, but the truth is that Glasgow have become a bloody good team. There’s no way anybody will take them lightly, and that is the case with Saracens.

Very rarely are my old side anything less than fully engaged, making it nigh on impossible that Glasgow will get away with playing for 30-40 minutes then taking their foot off the gas. In the Pro14, we have often seen them deliver a devastating burst, score a cluster of tries and end up thumping opponents without looking wholly convincing. To have any chance this afternoon, they will need to play better, longer and harder than they have under Dave Rennie, and it might still not be enough.


Saracens are back to something like their best after a year when a hangover from the Lions tour and injury to Billy Vunipola left them vulnerable. They won the league, but Europe was a disappointment.

Considering they had been champions the previous two seasons, they will be keen to set out their stall over the coming months. But don’t make the mistake of thinking they will expressly target the Champions Cup — that is not the way things are done under Mark McCall.






Stepping up: Alex Lozowski performed well in win at Harlequins

Stepping up: Alex Lozowski performed well in win at Harlequins
BOB BRADFORD/CAMERASPORT

Nobody stands up in pre-season and sets out specific goals. They live game by game, channelling all efforts into the performance and the process in the belief that the bigger picture will take care of itself. It’s something every team talks about, but few actually do.

When you arrive at Saracens, you get a sense of how everything and everybody revolves around the system. They have quality individuals, but the collective strength sets them apart.



–– ADVERTISEMENT ––








Look at last week’s win at Harlequins, where none of Liam Williams, Sean Maitland, Brad Barritt, Richard Wigglesworth or Maro Itoje started. The guys that did, the likes of David Strettle, Nick Tompkins, Alex Lewington, Alex Lozowski, Ben Spencer and Will Skelton, all have the ability to slot in seamlessly and minimise the potential disruption. They are all good players, but what Saracens do is sign a quality of player who also has the desire to improve in an environment that’s geared to getting the best out of everyone. It is always about the system. When I call it a machine, I mean it as a compliment.

One of the few times I remember a different feel to a match week was before the 2017 quarter-final against Glasgow. There was a real fear-factor in the build-up, because you don’t come up against that sort of team and approach in England.

Kelly Brown and me emphasised what a good side they were, and we then produced the most complete, most locked-in performance I’ve ever been part of. Glasgow were blown away. The look on their faces walking in at half-time showed they were already beaten.

That was the best I ever played for Saracens and one of the best games in my whole career. I was nervous beforehand because I knew there would not be too many more big games before retirement, and I was playing a lot of guys I knew well.

I had already started doing my media stuff, I was already building that jokey alter-ego, but I wanted to go out and show the young pups — Jonny Gray, Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell — that I could still play. Jonny was the bloke I had mentored into the Scotland team, and then he took my place. The old dog in me did not want to be embarrassed by him and I challenged myself in that game to be as clean as I could but also as physical as I could. I managed it, and we managed it.

Because Glasgow are so well coached, you are not going to outsmart them, but there is scope to undo them physically.

Petrus du Plessis will be a great addition. Saracens were keen to re-sign him, and he played for their A team against Harlequins two weeks ago. They monstered Quins up front. Petrus sent me a beaming-faced selfie afterwards and though he is not an overly skilful player, Glasgow won’t be going backwards with him at tighthead. The scrum is where Saracens have shown chinks in their armour, and it is the one weak area in Mako Vunipola’s game.

Glasgow need to hang tough, hang in there, and see where they end up. What they should not expect is any encouragement.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 3:32 pm

Saracens over for the first try, nice break, but the touch judge missed a Saracens player being bundled over the touch line whilst in possession in the build-up to the try.

Tough enough for Glasgow without that sort of thing happening.

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Post by BamBam on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 3:33 pm

Nice try by Saracens, been a good start to the game

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 3:39 pm

Duty281 wrote:Saracens over for the first try, nice break, but the touch judge missed a Saracens player being bundled over the touch line whilst in possession in the build-up to the try.

Tough enough for Glasgow without that sort of thing happening.

The game was moving at such pace and a couple of bodies left the pitch at the same time. There was no way you could tell whether he'd released it before or after leaving the field until the slow mo shot. By the times Sarries scored it was too many phases to go back and review

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 3:45 pm

Will the Glasgow players be allowed to throw the ball in crooked all game or will the lineout be a contest at some point?

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 3:52 pm

I'm guessing the former Smile

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 3:57 pm

Only a scrum? There is no way that prop could have caught the ball. Hilarious decision.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:00 pm

TMO seemed to think so too but the ref wasn't having it ... seen ones like that go both ways ..

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:01 pm

Heaf wrote:TMO seemed to think so too but the ref wasn't having it ... seen ones like that go both ways ..

Thats probably 1 out of 10 i see these one handed failed attempt given as a scrum.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:05 pm

Yep - but I think because he wasn't stretching out for the ball much and his body got in between the passer and receiver he got away with it ..

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:11 pm

Glasgow playing an incredibly minimalist version of rugby.

Not going to win playing like that.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:15 pm

Heaf wrote:Yep - but I think because he wasn't stretching out for the ball much and his body got in between the passer and receiver he got away with it ..

Agreed. He was trying for the intercept but didn't have the skills to pull off what his brain was trying to do.

Very fractious game. Glasgow seem to be a little keen for it to spill over and the ref is looking at them as the instigators more than he's looking at Sarries retaliation.

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:31 pm

Aye, any time Jackson is touching the ball, you feel how much Glasgow are missing Hogg.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:33 pm

Where is Hogg? And when did FR go to Racing?

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:36 pm

Ah speak of the devil Smile

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:36 pm

Heaf wrote:Where is Hogg?  And when did FR go to Racing?

Hogg is injured, FR went at the end of last season, frankly Glasgow aren't missing him much. Young Hastings is not having his best game though.

Though it's hard to tell as this is nothing compared to the free flowing offloading game Glasgow were playing under Townsend.

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Post by Eejit on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:38 pm

We’ve left far too many points on the field. Credit to Sarries, they’re a top side and making life really difficult. Suspect Sarries will start to turn the screw now.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:38 pm

Yes they do seem to be more subdued than I remember from last year.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:45 pm

Great defence from Glasgow there

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Post by RDW on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:45 pm

Huge defence from Glasgow!

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:49 pm

Great defence but not going to win showing so little in attack

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:51 pm

Sarries attack will probably suffer too with both Vunipola's off also so it's still anyone's game

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Post by carpet baboon on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:55 pm

The last 15 mins Farrell's passing has been woefully. Is he injured

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:56 pm

That was a daft pen to give away

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Post by Heaf on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:56 pm

carpet baboon wrote:The last 15 mins Farrell's passing has been woefully. Is he injured

He was down for a while about 10 mins ago so maybe carrying a knock

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Post by RDW on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 4:59 pm

Glasgow giving away some real stupid penalties - George turner at the ruck the Jackson taking out a player needlessly

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 5:04 pm

Turner is going to kill any chance Glasgow had of winning this, massively overated player.

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Post by reallybored on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 5:18 pm

Glasgow were tactically inept, doesn't look like Rennie has learnt anything from last season.

Jackson was p!ish.

Sarries got away with murder.


Don't see anyone putting a finger on Leinster, head and shoulders the best side in the comp.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 5:34 pm

reallybored wrote:Glasgow were tactically inept, doesn't look like Rennie has learnt anything from last season.

Jackson was p!ish.

Sarries got away with murder.


Don't see anyone putting a finger on Leinster, head and shoulders the best side in the comp.

Because Glasgow didn't go off their feet at every other breakdown and swim like an Olympian up the side of mauls?

The ref did a good job of keeping a feisty game from spilling over. He wasn't perfect but he was mostly consistent with both teams trying to be the most physical and niggly.

Glasgow lacked composure at key times and Sarries lacked a cutting edge in the Glasgow 22.

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Post by Eejit on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 5:35 pm

reallybored wrote:Glasgow were tactically inept, doesn't look like Rennie has learnt anything from last season.

Jackson was p!ish.

Sarries got away with murder.


Don't see anyone putting a finger on Leinster, head and shoulders the best side in the comp.

Agree. They were there for the taking. Glasgow Completely ballsed that up.

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Post by RDW on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 5:41 pm

A very intense and physical game - was surprised by the low scoreline. Glasgow made several good individual breaks but were just missing the last 5% to make the most of them. Sarries will be a little worried at how blunt they were.

DR will be disappointed not to get anything out of that - Sarries weren't at their best and Glasgow had plenty chances. Got to improve discipline though - far too many stupid penalties!

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Post by TJ on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 5:44 pm

I think that was an not an easy game for the ref.  Couple of 50/50 decisions didn't go Glasgows way but no obvious howlers.  could have given a card against Sarries for the 3rd penalty on their line but thats about it.

Glasgow threw pretty much everything they had at Sarries butnever got clear sight of the line.  Great sarries defence to hold out for so long. 

Stats will make interesting reading

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Post by BigGee on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 5:59 pm

Blues beat Lyon in France as well, so this pool is opening right up tol. Does not look like Lyon are going to be very interested in European rugby either.

Blues are in with a shout though, next weekend game v Glasgow going to be very interesting.

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Post by George Carlin on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 7:18 pm

Genuinely one of those games that the younger players will have learned from.

Bummed that it wasn't a win but we can certainly move through this group now.

Am annoyed at Rennie though. This brittleness and high error count was a feature last season too.
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Post by RDW on Sun 14 Oct 2018, 9:28 pm

How did Hastings miss that kick in front of the posts btw? Would have earned a LBP in the end.

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Post by bsando on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 7:18 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR8JNL4VTgI

Quick question about the Sarries tackle in the highlights above (01.07). George Horne makes a great break and gets tackled by two Sarries players, offloads from the floor to Lee Jones who then gets flattened by a retreating Sarries player. Is that legal because Horne has offloaded rather than presented the ball on the floor, therefore decision is no ruck formed not offside?

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Post by RDW on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 7:21 am

Correct - a ruck hadn't formed so it was still open play.

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 7:24 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:How did Hastings miss that kick in front of the posts btw? Would have earned a LBP in the end.
I know. It's not like there is a history of a Hastings missing a vital kick in a rugby match straight in front of the posts.

( Cry )
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Post by BigGee on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 9:37 am

I watched the last night and boy was it a tough one, both physically and to take!

There was really nothing in it except Sarries took their chance, even if it was in touch and Glasgow did not. There was phenomenal defence from both teams that looks as if it has cause some injury concerns, especially for Sarries going forward. They won't be getting their A team out against Lyon next weekend, though they probably won't need to!

I actually like the way that Rennie is trying to get us to play these and I hope the results will eventually come. It was Hastings first game of this kind of intensity, so he can be forgiven for not having his best game and he will learn from it. We definitely missed Hoggy though, he is our attacking spark from the back and Jacko, as he has all season, just seems to be lacking a little bit this season compared to last.

Next weekends game in Cardiff is now must win and they will have their tails up after a very goos away win in France. It is going to be another very interesting game!

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Post by bsando on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 9:57 am

Cheers for clarifying RDW
Didn’t see the match but sounds like despite Glasgow mistakes they did well to hold out and only concede 13 points. I’m encouraged and think they can win away in Wales. Huge test though! Blues are playing well.

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Post by TJ on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 10:31 am

Glasgow by no means played badly.  Made some good breaks and some scripted moves came off but they couldn't get thru even in the last 1/4 of the match when the work those big sarries forwards had had to do started to tell.  Another day a few different bounces of the ball and Glasgow would have had a chance of winning but there is no doubt the better side won



Glasgow really missed Hogg.  He would have taken the kicks from hand and maybe restarts to take pressure off hastings as well as maybe just adding that final cutting edge.  There is a huge difference between Jackson running flat out onto a ball with a hint of space and Hogg doing so.

Hastings stats compared to Farrells made for some interesting reading.

So far this season Farrell has made 3 breaks hastings 20+ (IIRC from telly)
this match Farrell 20 passes 4 carries for zero metres 11 tackles4 missed
Hastings 20 passes 15 carries 46 m 12 tackles 3 missed
Plus of course the obligatory missed penalty to touch and one from the ground and a few turnovers none of which Farrell did.  ;-)
I think Hastings acquitted himself very well for his age and inexperience.  It did show tho.

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Post by EST on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:00 am

I actually think Rennie has changed the way Glasgow are playing from last season - we were much more physical in defence and our scrum and maul are much, much better than last season. We are also being a bit more patient, and trying to play through the middle - problem is, we don't have anybody that can get us over the gain line against a monster team like Sarries.

Going onto the ref, I don't really understand why they didn't look at the try - it was tight but the Sarries player was in touch. I also think he missed a couple of very obvious superman clearouts from Sarries players - and on one occasion penalised Glasgow for being offside instead. That being said, i'm sure Glasgow got away with a few things - just that they didn't have a material outcome.

Thing I am most annoyed about is our game management - we needed to take the points before half time and with ten mins left - we showed our naivety there.

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Post by RDW on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:02 am

EST wrote:I actually think Rennie has changed the way Glasgow are playing from last season - we were much more physical in defence and our scrum and maul are much, much better than last season.  We are also being a bit more patient, and trying to play through the middle - problem is, we don't have anybody that can get us over the gain line against a monster team like Sarries.

Going onto the ref, I don't really understand why they didn't look at the try - it was tight but the Sarries player was in touch.  I also think he missed a couple of very obvious superman clearouts from Sarries players - and on one occasion penalised Glasgow for being offside instead.  That being said, i'm sure Glasgow got away with a few things - just that they didn't have a material outcome.

Thing I am most annoyed about is our game management - we needed to take the points before half time and with ten mins left - we showed our naivety there.

It's always easy to say with hindsight but I agree that was a poor decision.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:09 am

I agree about the penalties, the game was close and we needed some points in the bag. They always knew towards the end it was a two score game which gave them the licence to go off side and risk a penalty.

If it had been 13-9 going into the last 10 mins and with them obviously tiring, could have been a different story. That was just naivety at this level, we were never so far out of it that we had to chase the game, especially just before half time.

Having watched it last night, I still can't fathom out why the ref reversed the scrum to give them a penalty either. It was just handbags and if anything, they were more at fault.

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Post by EST on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:21 am

BigGee wrote:I agree about the penalties, the game was close and we needed some points in the bag. They always knew towards the end it was a two score game which gave them the licence to go off side and risk a penalty.

If it had been 13-9 going into the last 10 mins and with them obviously tiring, could have been a different story. That was just naivety at this level, we were never so far out of it that we had to chase the game, especially just before half time.

Having watched it last night, I still can't fathom out why the ref reversed the scrum to give them a penalty either. It was just handbags and if anything, they were more at fault.

No, I thought that was soft as well, although I can understand why it was given. The first half penalty I think Glasgow can feel aggrieved at - it was as blatant as you'll see - Sarries playerd diving straight of feet and leading with a shoulder - it should have been looked at during the game, instead Farrell got the opportunity for an easy three points.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:31 am

BigGee wrote:I agree about the penalties, the game was close and we needed some points in the bag. They always knew towards the end it was a two score game which gave them the licence to go off side and risk a penalty.

If it had been 13-9 going into the last 10 mins and with them obviously tiring, could have been a different story. That was just naivety at this level, we were never so far out of it that we had to chase the game, especially just before half time.

And it wasn't a knockout game either. You want to win, of course, but it wasn't win or bust. Get something out of the game. An LBP is still a P.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:34 am

Tbf both teams were going off their feet. Was a bit of a concerted effort by Glasgow to try and provoke reactions, is this a normal.thing or just because they were up for a big game?

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Post by BigGee on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:36 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
BigGee wrote:I agree about the penalties, the game was close and we needed some points in the bag. They always knew towards the end it was a two score game which gave them the licence to go off side and risk a penalty.

If it had been 13-9 going into the last 10 mins and with them obviously tiring, could have been a different story. That was just naivety at this level, we were never so far out of it that we had to chase the game, especially just before half time.

And it wasn't a knockout game either. You want to win, of course, but it wasn't win or bust. Get something out of the game. An LBP is still a P.

You are completely right, that lost point could be the difference between qualifying or not at the end of the group!

Unfathomable really!

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Post by EST on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:38 am

BigGee wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
BigGee wrote:I agree about the penalties, the game was close and we needed some points in the bag. They always knew towards the end it was a two score game which gave them the licence to go off side and risk a penalty.

If it had been 13-9 going into the last 10 mins and with them obviously tiring, could have been a different story. That was just naivety at this level, we were never so far out of it that we had to chase the game, especially just before half time.

And it wasn't a knockout game either. You want to win, of course, but it wasn't win or bust. Get something out of the game. An LBP is still a P.

You are completely right, that lost point could be the difference between qualifying or not at the end of the group!

Unfathomable really!

It's been a trademark of this Glasgow team for too long - they need to learn to take the pragmatic option.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:46 am

All Glasgow need is 19-20 points from their 4 games. Not sure if Blues will be so accomadating.

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