Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Diggers on Sat 29 Sep 2018, 1:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Re Sterling, he’s got more PL assists than any English player in the last year, 3rd most of anyone. As well as a shedload of goals, what a poopie player he is!!
Could this be it for Jose, I certainly hope so.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 7:48 am

McLaren wrote:Super

Have you been on the David ike videos again?


Or just indoctrinated by your employer?

Mac, I'm not denying that climate change exists, nor am I denying the human influence in it, after all every single one of us is 100% reliant on oil and gas for every aspect of our lives. However, I don't buy the hyperbolic claim that climate change is a threat to the existence of the human race.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 7:52 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Hard to think what I'm more bored of, Brexit or the constant "impending doom" from Climate Change.
I'm sick of hearing about both.
We keep hearing threats of human extinction, yet I don't see how that is remotely possible when humans have lived through far worse environments and climates in the last 200k years all without the benefit of technology.

We should stop worrying about the state of the climate and trying to reverse it (who decides on a base level anyway, as it's a bit like trying to hold back the tide) and put our efforts into using technology to deal with the impact of climate change.
 As Europeans, there is pretty much nothing we can do to stop it given the pollution from America, China and India and in most parts of the developed world outweigh by many times what we as a fairly efficient continent,  the effects of climate change are pretty manageable for all of us in Europe anyway. The over-reaction is getting far too hysterical.

How is climate change going to kill off Europe? It won't. What's the worst that can happen in Europe or Britain? A wee bit of flooding? Big deal.
Strangely, some of us might feel that, say, Bangladesh or the Maldives being submerged is kind of a big deal. The World's a little bigger than your pre-WWI imperial/monarchist view would suggest. The idea that we have 'technology' (whatever the **** that means) to fix it, and that's a panacea, is daft. It'll also come way too late.

Christ, Talk about missing the point. I didn't claim we had technology to FIX climate change, I said we can develop methods using technology which will help to mitigate the effects of it, for example coastal defences, flood measures, better drainage, more green spaces, flood storage etc. That's what we should be concentrating on. The gases changing climate change are already out there. If we reduced our output by 50% today, it would still take decades for anything to change in the climate, hence we have to use what methods we have, and will develop to fight the effects of climate change, not look for a way to reverse it. We should be looking at BOTH, reducing greenhouse gases AND developing methods to fight the effects.


Last edited by super_realist on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 8:05 am

Diggers wrote:Genius logic from the man who works for the fossil fuel industry. If you actually look at culture in places like China and India they have a completely different relationship with nature, that's why China, although far more advanced than Europe, never had the same industrial revolution. We need to tap back into that kind of thinking to work together.

Don't be a hypocrite Diggers. You are just responsible for the consumption of fossil fuels as I am, probably more so given that you have children and probably use carbon fuel sources more than I do.

If you think China and India are doing a good job compared to our industrial revolution then you know nothing about those two countries. The amount of pollution in those places far exceeds anything we ever experienced in the UK. China is a massive user of coal power stations and is opening them at an astonishing rate, their pollution is on a different scale and if you know anyone who has ever been to Beijing, they'll tell you how polluted a place it is. India is also a massively polluted place, and only appears to have a "connection with nature" because so many of them are forced to live in it due to poverty. Those two countries and America are responsible for a fantastic amount of pollution, in fact nearly 50% of ALL global CO2. The UK is only responsible for 1% of global Co2, so my point stands, it doesn't really matter what we do, our impact in the UK is really tiny.

There's only 5 European countries in the top 20 of Global Polluters, but can you really deny developing countries the same right to industrial development that we have? Isn't that being very pious of us?

The most annoying thing is that the absurd claim is we are facing a "human extinction" event due to climate change. Utter claptrap.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 8:32 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Hard to think what I'm more bored of, Brexit or the constant "impending doom" from Climate Change.
I'm sick of hearing about both.
We keep hearing threats of human extinction, yet I don't see how that is remotely possible when humans have lived through far worse environments and climates in the last 200k years all without the benefit of technology.

We should stop worrying about the state of the climate and trying to reverse it (who decides on a base level anyway, as it's a bit like trying to hold back the tide) and put our efforts into using technology to deal with the impact of climate change.
 As Europeans, there is pretty much nothing we can do to stop it given the pollution from America, China and India and in most parts of the developed world outweigh by many times what we as a fairly efficient continent,  the effects of climate change are pretty manageable for all of us in Europe anyway. The over-reaction is getting far too hysterical.

How is climate change going to kill off Europe? It won't. What's the worst that can happen in Europe or Britain? A wee bit of flooding? Big deal.
Strangely, some of us might feel that, say, Bangladesh or the Maldives being submerged is kind of a big deal. The World's a little bigger than your pre-WWI imperial/monarchist view would suggest. The idea that we have 'technology' (whatever the **** that means) to fix it, and that's a panacea, is daft. It'll also come way too late.

Christ, Talk about missing the point. I didn't claim we had technology to FIX climate change, I said we can develop methods using technology which will help to mitigate the effects of it, for example coastal defences, flood measures, better drainage, more green spaces, flood storage etc. That's what we should be concentrating on. The gases changing climate change are already out there. If we reduced our output by 50% today, it would still take decades for anything to change in the climate, hence we have to use what methods we have, and will develop to fight the effects of climate change, not look for a way to reverse it. We should be looking at BOTH, reducing greenhouse gases AND developing methods to fight the effects.
I don't think I did miss your point, which was Europe's OK, Jack; the rest can go drown/desiccate/freeze/be blown to oblivion. Just so you know, it's not all about rising flood waters - have a look at the UK's latitude sometime and refresh your memory as to what drives the Gulf Stream and how that'll be affected if the Greenland ice sheet disappears. Thought you might have appreciated that; but maybe not.

You're correct re. the role that technology can play as part of any fix, but the rest of your attitude appears misinformed and a little narrow-minded.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 8:41 am

super_realist wrote:...The most annoying thing is that the absurd claim is we are facing a "human extinction" event due to climate change. Utter claptrap.
What's more annoying is that, given we don't actually know but the consequences could be a 'human extinction', we're doing stuff all about minimising the sorts of pollution that may well precipitate just that. It should be standard practice to stop polluting the planet with schidt, but we're so dumb that's what we do.

You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

Your arguments re. UK pollution in the Victorian age vs. that of India/China now are pretty specious given we're talking about maybe 20-30 million (or less?) in the UK then vs. >1 billion in India and even more than that in China now. Happy to bet that per capita, we were just as bad then as they are now.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Davie on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 9:57 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

So .. the probable death of BILLIONS caused by climate change? What's your timescales for this prediction? 100 years? 1000 years? Next week?

You've got to be kidding...

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 10:57 am

navyblueshorts wrote: Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.
Sounds like a teaser for the Old Testament.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by beninho on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:06 am

Can't we just all agree that climate change is a thing, and while some people are trying to something about it, lots aren't. And that its entirely probable that at some point in the future parts of the world will be heavily impacted.

I probably fall into the group that thinks it sounds terrible, but am not overly fussed. Which is probably wrong.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:16 am

Davie wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

So .. the probable death of BILLIONS caused by climate change? What's your timescales for this prediction? 100 years? 1000 years? Next week?

You've got to be kidding...
picard No surprises there. Nice of you to truncate the rest of my post where I said:

navyblueshorts wrote:...given we don't actually know but the consequences could be a 'human extinction'

Firstly, we don't know, but surely it would be wise to ensure it doesn't happen? Secondly, you actually think the timescale matters if billions were to perish?? As for your 'next week' suggestion, you don't surprise me.
I have neither the willpower nor expertise to explain to someone like you (who isn't interested in listening) what the implications could be. If you factor in likely mass starvations, migrations and the potential wars over resources, I'd say a billion+ over a period of time wouldn't be beyond feasible. Won't affect you though, so no worries eh?
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:18 am

beninho wrote:Can't we just all agree that climate change is a thing, and while some people are trying to something about it, lots aren't. And that its entirely probable that at some point in the future parts of the world will be heavily impacted.

I probably fall into the group that thinks it sounds terrible, but am not overly fussed. Which is probably wrong.
Certainly a good summary of things as they are. Sadly, significant individuals/businesses can't/won't get their heads around the first bit of your statement.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Davie on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:25 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Davie wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

So .. the probable death of BILLIONS caused by climate change? What's your timescales for this prediction? 100 years? 1000 years? Next week?

You've got to be kidding...
picard No surprises there. Nice of you to truncate the rest of my post where I said:

navyblueshorts wrote:...given we don't actually know but the consequences could be a 'human extinction'

Firstly, we don't know, but surely it would be wise to ensure it doesn't happen? Secondly, you actually think the timescale matters if billions were to perish?? As for your 'next week' suggestion, you don't surprise me.
I have neither the willpower nor expertise to explain to someone like you (who isn't interested in listening) what the implications could be. If you factor in likely mass starvations, migrations and the potential wars over resources, I'd say a billion+ over a period of time wouldn't be beyond feasible. Won't affect you though, so no worries eh?

I "truncated" your post because I had no argument with the word "could" - although I still think it's a bit of a stretch.

What makes you think I'm not interested in listening? You could always try. I'm open to sensible offerings, but the claim that possibly more that 1/5th of the world's population are going to (possibly) perish makes me wonder why this isn't making headline news every day and causing mass panic around the world. You're dreaming

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:44 am

Davie wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

So .. the probable death of BILLIONS caused by climate change? What's your timescales for this prediction? 100 years? 1000 years? Next week?

You've got to be kidding...

The simple fact is we don’t know, we just don’t. If a potential extinction event arose, say an asteroid was identified as heading straight for us. The human race would very quickly focus on how it would potentially deal with it and do so, maybe it would be successful maybe it wouldn’t but it would try and with the utmost urgency. With climate change, because it’s such a slow burner (pardon the pun) the human race does have a degree of complacency over it (vested interests making money like bandits and caring not one jot about the environmental vandalism created in the process). It may be hundreds/thousands of years until we reach some sort of tipping point, it may not. The ice caps, the Gulf Stream, El Niño, La Niña, and others, all natural phenomenons are interact in a kind of weird delicate balancing act. We are getting to the point where human activity could be influencing the extremes of how those phenomenons fluctuate. Who can say with any certainty that the rapid receding of polar icecaps won’t have knock on effects to ocean currents and therefore weather extremes. Will it eventually self correct? Well maybe but we don’t know that either do we? Massive fires and floods seem more prevalent in the past decade, does that mean they are or are they more comprehensively reported, if it’s the former then yes we really should be listening more closely to what experts are saying, challenge them and make them explain in better detail but don’t dismiss them as hippy freaks because we assume we’ll be ok for a while yet.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:45 am

Davie wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

So .. the probable death of BILLIONS caused by climate change? What's your timescales for this prediction? 100 years? 1000 years? Next week?

You've got to be kidding...

The simple fact is we don’t know, we just don’t. If a potential extinction event arose, say an asteroid was identified as heading straight for us. The human race would very quickly focus on how it would potentially deal with it and do so, maybe it would be successful maybe it wouldn’t but it would try and with the utmost urgency. With climate change, because it’s such a slow burner (pardon the pun) the human race does have a degree of complacency over it (vested interests making money like bandits and caring not one jot about the environmental vandalism created in the process). It may be hundreds/thousands of years until we reach some sort of tipping point, it may not. The ice caps, the Gulf Stream, El Niño, La Niña, and others, all natural phenomenons are interact in a kind of weird delicate balancing act. We are getting to the point where human activity could be influencing the extremes of how those phenomenons fluctuate. Who can say with any certainty that the rapid receding of polar icecaps won’t have knock on effects to ocean currents and therefore weather extremes. Will it eventually self correct? Well maybe but we don’t know that either do we? Massive fires and floods seem more prevalent in the past decade, does that mean they are or are they more comprehensively reported, if it’s the former then yes we really should be listening more closely to what experts are saying, challenge them and make them explain in better detail but don’t dismiss them as hippy freaks because we assume we’ll be ok for a while yet.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by McLaren on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 12:29 pm

Davie

A species population decreasing by a 1/5 due to climate changes or alterations to its habitat would not be all that extraordinary.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 12:36 pm

Whatever you believe about climate change, whether it's man-made (of which I've no doubt) or cyclical, there are several examples where nature has been damaged by man's actions hundreds/thousands of miles away and then, having been properly identified, corrective action has restored the landscape and habitat.
The effects of acid rain from power plants in the American mid-west on the forests of New York/New England/Quebec and subsequent changes which enabled them, and the wildlife, to be restored would be perfect examples.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 1:00 pm

I do remember when acid rain was perceived as being a big big issue, of course unchecked it would be. I still lived in Scotland at the time and I was very into trout & salmon fishing. Acid rain was seen in the 80s as potentially catastrophic for salmonoid populations (the detrimental effect on plant and insect life in and around rivers and lochs). Since moving south I’ve pretty much lost touch with most of my fishing buddies so I don’t know how detrimental or otherwise it eventually became although I have heard that my old favourite trout river (the Clyde) is virtually devoid of any decent trout in the upper reaches nowadays. Strangely though probably nowt to do with acid rain more because of the accidental introduction of the North American crayfish.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 1:45 pm

JAS wrote:
Davie wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

So .. the probable death of BILLIONS caused by climate change? What's your timescales for this prediction? 100 years? 1000 years? Next week?

You've got to be kidding...

The simple fact is we don’t know, we just don’t. If a potential extinction event arose, say an asteroid was identified as heading straight for us. The human race would very quickly focus on how it would potentially deal with it and do so, maybe it would be successful maybe it wouldn’t but it would try and with the utmost urgency. With climate change, because it’s such a slow burner (pardon the pun) the human race does have a degree of complacency over it (vested interests making money like bandits and caring not one jot about the environmental vandalism created in the process). It may be hundreds/thousands of years until we reach some sort of tipping point, it may not. The ice caps, the Gulf Stream, El Niño, La Niña, and others, all natural phenomenons are interact in a kind of weird delicate balancing act. We are getting to the point where human activity could be influencing the extremes of how those phenomenons fluctuate. Who can say with any certainty that the rapid receding of polar icecaps won’t have knock on effects to ocean currents and therefore weather extremes. Will it eventually self correct? Well maybe but we don’t know that either do we? Massive fires and floods seem more prevalent in the past decade, does that mean they are or are they more comprehensively reported, if it’s the former then yes we really should be listening more closely to what experts are saying, challenge them and make them explain in better detail but don’t dismiss them as hippy freaks because we assume we’ll be ok for a while yet.

This sounds like a great plot idea for a movie. Anyone got Roland Emmerich's contact details?

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 1:45 pm

There’s a lot if things we don’t know. Therein lies the power of religion and social control.

What we DO know is that there is a) climate change going on and that b) the 3rd world is overpopulated. Why not (also) challenge b) to mitigate the effect/consequences of a)?

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 2:06 pm

pedro wrote:There’s a lot if things we don’t know. Therein lies the power of religion and social control.

What we DO know is that there is a) climate change going on and that b) the 3rd world is overpopulated. Why not (also) challenge b) to mitigate the effect/consequences of a)?

More likely the other way round I would have thought

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by McLaren on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 2:08 pm

Pedro

Not sure we do "know" that the 3rd world is over populated.

Whenever anyone talks about over population I direct them to this video.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 8:04 am

David Leadbetter's "analysis of a mad axeman"

Or not.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 8:06 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Hard to think what I'm more bored of, Brexit or the constant "impending doom" from Climate Change.
I'm sick of hearing about both.
We keep hearing threats of human extinction, yet I don't see how that is remotely possible when humans have lived through far worse environments and climates in the last 200k years all without the benefit of technology.

We should stop worrying about the state of the climate and trying to reverse it (who decides on a base level anyway, as it's a bit like trying to hold back the tide) and put our efforts into using technology to deal with the impact of climate change.
 As Europeans, there is pretty much nothing we can do to stop it given the pollution from America, China and India and in most parts of the developed world outweigh by many times what we as a fairly efficient continent,  the effects of climate change are pretty manageable for all of us in Europe anyway. The over-reaction is getting far too hysterical.

How is climate change going to kill off Europe? It won't. What's the worst that can happen in Europe or Britain? A wee bit of flooding? Big deal.
Strangely, some of us might feel that, say, Bangladesh or the Maldives being submerged is kind of a big deal. The World's a little bigger than your pre-WWI imperial/monarchist view would suggest. The idea that we have 'technology' (whatever the **** that means) to fix it, and that's a panacea, is daft. It'll also come way too late.

Christ, Talk about missing the point. I didn't claim we had technology to FIX climate change, I said we can develop methods using technology which will help to mitigate the effects of it, for example coastal defences, flood measures, better drainage, more green spaces, flood storage etc. That's what we should be concentrating on. The gases changing climate change are already out there. If we reduced our output by 50% today, it would still take decades for anything to change in the climate, hence we have to use what methods we have, and will develop to fight the effects of climate change, not look for a way to reverse it. We should be looking at BOTH, reducing greenhouse gases AND developing methods to fight the effects.
I don't think I did miss your point, which was Europe's OK, Jack; the rest can go drown/desiccate/freeze/be blown to oblivion. Just so you know, it's not all about rising flood waters - have a look at the UK's latitude sometime and refresh your memory as to what drives the Gulf Stream and how that'll be affected if the Greenland ice sheet disappears. Thought you might have appreciated that; but maybe not.

You're correct re. the role that technology can play as part of any fix, but the rest of your attitude appears misinformed and a little narrow-minded.

That wasn't my point, my point was that if something is claimed as being an extinction event, then how can that possibly be when Australia, South America, North America, Russia, most of Africa and Europe would be affected to a fairly minimal level.

I've yet to hear from these doom mongers by what means we are all likely to perish, have you?

Yes, I'm aware of what will happen if the gulf stream changes, we get more Nordic/Arctic weather, but that doesn't mean we'll all suddenly die off. It's not affected Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Canada, Alaska, Finland in a human extinction way has it? We simply learn to adapt and develop our infrastructure and lives to cope. It's what we've done for hundreds of thousands of years, and at no time in human history have we been better prepared to adapt to change.

Yes, Climate change is real, and we as a population have contributed over the last 500 years to some sort of level to this, but people are getting rather hysterical about something which isn't really all that catastrophic, and certainly not a mass extinction event.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 8:13 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:...The most annoying thing is that the absurd claim is we are facing a "human extinction" event due to climate change. Utter claptrap.
What's more annoying is that, given we don't actually know but the consequences could be a 'human extinction', we're doing stuff all about minimising the sorts of pollution that may well precipitate just that. It should be standard practice to stop polluting the planet with schidt, but we're so dumb that's what we do.

You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

Your arguments re. UK pollution in the Victorian age vs. that of India/China now are pretty specious given we're talking about maybe 20-30 million (or less?) in the UK then vs. >1 billion in India and even more than that in China now. Happy to bet that per capita, we were just as bad then as they are now.

There's no evidence that "billions" will die though Navy, that's the entire point and is making the entire climate change argument rather misleading. Yes, climate change is real, but spreading scare stories about "Billions of people dying" based on no evidence is taking credibility away from the argument, just like your claim that only a "tiny proportion" will survive. Humanity has dealt with a great deal worse than the sort of climate change they are talking about throughout history and survived.

How are billions of people going to die exactly? I've yet to hear any reasons why or how this could happen.

The term "extinction event" makes people believe it's both rapid and imminent. It's sensationalist journalism at its worst.

As for your claim that we shouldn't be polluting, yes that's true, but in reality there is pretty much no alternative if we want to continue living the way we want to live. In effect it's nimbyism. We want to stop polluting, or rather we want others to stop polluting, but we don't want to be inconvenienced by it. We can't have it both ways. Think of everything in your life that you enjoy or even that you deem necessary and which has a polluting effect which is pretty much everything you use, buy, consume, take part in. How many would be willing to give them up? Plenty will claim they would, in reality they won't. Champagne Environmentalism, typical of your Mac type person.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Davie on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 8:42 am

Expecting incoming facepalm emojis from NBS any time now 3 .. 2 .. 1...

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 9:53 am

“Champagne environmentalism typical of a Mac type”...Champagne??? C’mon you know Mac can’t afford champagne...how about Cava environmentalism?

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 10:48 am

So it looks like direct protest works then. French have dropped plans for fuel price increases. Fair play to them, they’re as hacked off with austerity as we are but rather than have a massive distraction argument about whether they should be in or out of Europe they’ve taken to the streets to make it clear that they’re not happy with the direction of their Govt and it needs to change. Btw the final straw that ignited the protests was the announcement that the environmental levy on diesel was going to take it up to 1.33 a litre.


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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 11:45 am

McLaren wrote:Pedro

Not sure we do "know" that the 3rd world is over populated.

Whenever anyone talks about over population I direct them to this video.

Spoiler:
Good link. Thanks, Mac.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 11:52 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Hard to think what I'm more bored of, Brexit or the constant "impending doom" from Climate Change.
I'm sick of hearing about both.
We keep hearing threats of human extinction, yet I don't see how that is remotely possible when humans have lived through far worse environments and climates in the last 200k years all without the benefit of technology.

We should stop worrying about the state of the climate and trying to reverse it (who decides on a base level anyway, as it's a bit like trying to hold back the tide) and put our efforts into using technology to deal with the impact of climate change.
 As Europeans, there is pretty much nothing we can do to stop it given the pollution from America, China and India and in most parts of the developed world outweigh by many times what we as a fairly efficient continent,  the effects of climate change are pretty manageable for all of us in Europe anyway. The over-reaction is getting far too hysterical.

How is climate change going to kill off Europe? It won't. What's the worst that can happen in Europe or Britain? A wee bit of flooding? Big deal.
Strangely, some of us might feel that, say, Bangladesh or the Maldives being submerged is kind of a big deal. The World's a little bigger than your pre-WWI imperial/monarchist view would suggest. The idea that we have 'technology' (whatever the **** that means) to fix it, and that's a panacea, is daft. It'll also come way too late.

Christ, Talk about missing the point. I didn't claim we had technology to FIX climate change, I said we can develop methods using technology which will help to mitigate the effects of it, for example coastal defences, flood measures, better drainage, more green spaces, flood storage etc. That's what we should be concentrating on. The gases changing climate change are already out there. If we reduced our output by 50% today, it would still take decades for anything to change in the climate, hence we have to use what methods we have, and will develop to fight the effects of climate change, not look for a way to reverse it. We should be looking at BOTH, reducing greenhouse gases AND developing methods to fight the effects.
I don't think I did miss your point, which was Europe's OK, Jack; the rest can go drown/desiccate/freeze/be blown to oblivion. Just so you know, it's not all about rising flood waters - have a look at the UK's latitude sometime and refresh your memory as to what drives the Gulf Stream and how that'll be affected if the Greenland ice sheet disappears. Thought you might have appreciated that; but maybe not.

You're correct re. the role that technology can play as part of any fix, but the rest of your attitude appears misinformed and a little narrow-minded.

That wasn't my point, my point was that if something is claimed as being an extinction event, then how can that possibly be when Australia, South America, North America, Russia, most of Africa and Europe would be affected to a fairly minimal level.

I've yet to hear from these doom mongers by what means we are all likely to perish, have you?

Yes, I'm aware of what will happen if the gulf stream changes, we get more Nordic/Arctic weather, but that doesn't mean we'll all suddenly die off. It's not affected Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Canada, Alaska, Finland in a human extinction way has it? We simply learn to adapt and develop our infrastructure and lives to cope. It's what we've done for hundreds of thousands of years, and at no time in human history have we been better prepared to adapt to change.

Yes, Climate change is real, and we as a population have contributed over the last 500 years to some sort of level to this, but people are getting rather hysterical about something which isn't really all that catastrophic, and certainly not a mass extinction event.
There. If only you'd phrased things like that in the first place. You're right of course in that a bit of arctic weather isn't going to do for all of us, but I'm not sure that's a reason to ignore the climate scientists re. CO2 etc. I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.

Anyway, it's not just us is it? Other species are not going to have time to adapt - some species might make it, but many won't. Yes, I know about the dinosaurs etc, but again, I'm not sure that saying some people/species will be OK is reason to sit on our arses and ignore the climate science and the warnings from those scientists etc.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 11:58 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:...The most annoying thing is that the absurd claim is we are facing a "human extinction" event due to climate change. Utter claptrap.
What's more annoying is that, given we don't actually know but the consequences could be a 'human extinction', we're doing stuff all about minimising the sorts of pollution that may well precipitate just that. It should be standard practice to stop polluting the planet with schidt, but we're so dumb that's what we do.

You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

Your arguments re. UK pollution in the Victorian age vs. that of India/China now are pretty specious given we're talking about maybe 20-30 million (or less?) in the UK then vs. >1 billion in India and even more than that in China now. Happy to bet that per capita, we were just as bad then as they are now.

There's no evidence that "billions" will die though Navy, that's the entire point and is making the entire climate change argument rather misleading. Yes, climate change is real, but spreading scare stories about "Billions of people dying" based on no evidence is taking credibility away from the argument, just like your claim that only a "tiny proportion" will survive. Humanity has dealt with a great deal worse than the sort of climate change they are talking about throughout history and survived.

How are billions of people going to die exactly? I've yet to hear any reasons why or how this could happen.

The term "extinction event" makes people believe it's both rapid and imminent. It's sensationalist journalism at its worst.

As for your claim that we shouldn't be polluting, yes that's true, but in reality there is pretty much no alternative if we want to continue living the way we want to live. In effect it's nimbyism. We want to stop polluting, or rather we want others to stop polluting, but we don't want to be inconvenienced by it. We can't have it both ways. Think of everything in your life that you enjoy or even that you deem necessary and which has a polluting effect which is pretty much everything you use, buy, consume, take part in. How many would be willing to give them up? Plenty will claim they would, in reality they won't. Champagne Environmentalism, typical of your Mac type person.
All good points. As I said before, we don't know what the end point of this is in respect of climate. We also don't know what the knock-on effects (i.e. wars) will be. One would hope billions aren't going to end up dead as a result, but they could. I'm not suggesting it's next week, and it's not my fault if Joe Public hears 'extinction event' and are daft enough to think it's imminent.
Your last paragraph is spot on, but it's clear we (i.e. the so-called 'first world') are the one's who have to lead on this. We're causing the damage.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 11:59 am

Davie wrote:Expecting incoming facepalm emojis from NBS any time now 3 .. 2 .. 1...
Ahh. Highbrow stuff as usual Davie. Plus ca change...
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by raycastleunited on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:01 pm

JAS wrote:“Champagne environmentalism typical of a Mac type”...Champagne??? C’mon you know Mac can’t afford champagne...how about Cava bacardi breezer environmentalism?

Fixed it for you

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:01 pm

JAS wrote:So it looks like direct protest works then. French have dropped plans  for fuel price increases. Fair play to them, they’re as hacked off with austerity as we are but rather than have a massive distraction argument about whether they should be in or out of Europe they’ve taken to the streets to make it clear that they’re not happy with the direction of their Govt  and it needs to change. Btw the final straw that ignited the protests was the announcement that the environmental levy on diesel was going to take it up to 1.33 a litre.

Typical France. Their economy long-term is a basket case if they don't sort out some fundamental issues.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Diggers on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:15 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:...The most annoying thing is that the absurd claim is we are facing a "human extinction" event due to climate change. Utter claptrap.
What's more annoying is that, given we don't actually know but the consequences could be a 'human extinction', we're doing stuff all about minimising the sorts of pollution that may well precipitate just that. It should be standard practice to stop polluting the planet with schidt, but we're so dumb that's what we do.

You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

Your arguments re. UK pollution in the Victorian age vs. that of India/China now are pretty specious given we're talking about maybe 20-30 million (or less?) in the UK then vs. >1 billion in India and even more than that in China now. Happy to bet that per capita, we were just as bad then as they are now.

There's no evidence that "billions" will die though Navy, that's the entire point and is making the entire climate change argument rather misleading. Yes, climate change is real, but spreading scare stories about "Billions of people dying" based on no evidence is taking credibility away from the argument, just like your claim that only a "tiny proportion" will survive. Humanity has dealt with a great deal worse than the sort of climate change they are talking about throughout history and survived.

How are billions of people going to die exactly? I've yet to hear any reasons why or how this could happen.

The term "extinction event" makes people believe it's both rapid and imminent. It's sensationalist journalism at its worst.

As for your claim that we shouldn't be polluting, yes that's true, but in reality there is pretty much no alternative if we want to continue living the way we want to live. In effect it's nimbyism. We want to stop polluting, or rather we want others to stop polluting, but we don't want to be inconvenienced by it. We can't have it both ways. Think of everything in your life that you enjoy or even that you deem necessary and which has a polluting effect which is pretty much everything you use, buy, consume, take part in. How many would be willing to give them up? Plenty will claim they would, in reality they won't. Champagne Environmentalism, typical of your Mac type person.
All good points. As I said before, we don't know what the end point of this is in respect of climate. We also don't know what the knock-on effects (i.e. wars) will be. One would hope billions aren't going to end up dead as a result, but they could. I'm not suggesting it's next week, and it's not my fault if Joe Public hears 'extinction event' and are daft enough to think it's imminent.
Your last paragraph is spot on, but it's clear we (i.e. the so-called 'first world') are the one's who have to lead on this. We're causing the damage.

Re the last paragraph...that’s exactly why Govts need to make changes by implementing good, clean policy that people are forced to follow. The idea that it doesn’t make much of a difference is a stupid one, that’s how nothing ever changes and demonstrates once again a fixed mindset from Mr Fixed Mindset. The plastic bag tax is a good example of how small things can work. This Govts policies on climate change are, unsurprisingly, crap, look at the muppet who is the cabinet minister.
Take control away from big business but also give the right big business the tools and incentives to succeed.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 1:15 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Diggers on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 1:20 pm

pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.

Or alternatively, they find out what mass immigration really means.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 1:43 pm

pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.
Not sure what you wrote makes any sense. Australia is enjoying its increasing drought conditions is it? North America having fun with its autumnal hurricane systems is it?
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 1:44 pm

Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.

Or alternatively, they find out what mass immigration really means.
Indeed. Kind of a lose-lose situation whatever way you cut it.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Diggers on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 2:06 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.

Or alternatively, they find out what mass immigration really means.
Indeed. Kind of a lose-lose situation whatever way you cut it.

For me, the real problem is just how short term our view of the world. We seem to think nothing that happened more than 50 years (even 10 years ago makes a difference. We're too full of conceit for our cleverness, we think we can solve any problems that will come along. Everything is about the moment, we never, ever look back collectively and take stock from our mistakes.
I really don't see an issue with words like extinction, but because it might not happen in the next 30 years people don't see it as a problem. 200 years is nothing in the grand scheme of mankind, zilch in terms of the life of the planet. I'd be utterly staggered if it didn't pan out that we manage to totally eff up the planet (just as we are right now), it's hard to make a case that we actually deserve to survive as a species. Very clever and very flawed and very tribal, not a great mix really.


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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 2:24 pm

Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.

Or alternatively, they find out what mass immigration really means.
Indeed. Kind of a lose-lose situation whatever way you cut it.

For me, the real problem is just how short term our view of the world. We seem to think nothing that happened more than 50 years (even 10 years ago makes a difference. We're too full of conceit for our cleverness, we think we can solve any problems that will come along. Everything is about the moment, we never, ever look back collectively and take stock from our mistakes.  
I really don't see an issue with words like extinction, but because it might not happen in the next 30 years people don't see it as a problem. 200 years is nothing in the grand scheme of mankind, zilch in terms of the life of the planet. I'd be utterly staggered if it didn't pan out that we manage to totally eff up the planet (just as we are right now), it's hard to make a case that we actually deserve to survive as a species. Very clever and very flawed and very tribal, not a great mix really.

I can agree with most of that. Re. the last bit, that seems be in vogue at the moment. Perhaps those who trot that out can help out a little bit by removing themselves from both the planet and its human gene pool? Nothing personal Digs!

We're a product of, and vessel for our genes; we're doing what we're meant to do and to be fair, we're the first species that has developed the ability to trash its own planet, have the self-awareness to identify issues like this all the while still encompassing masses of individual humans who're basically selfish. Most other species can do the selfish, tribal bit, but don't possess the means to destroy their own habitat. We're clever enough to see the problem, but as a species are we clever enough to sort it out? Time will tell.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Diggers on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 5:10 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.

Or alternatively, they find out what mass immigration really means.
Indeed. Kind of a lose-lose situation whatever way you cut it.

For me, the real problem is just how short term our view of the world. We seem to think nothing that happened more than 50 years (even 10 years ago makes a difference. We're too full of conceit for our cleverness, we think we can solve any problems that will come along. Everything is about the moment, we never, ever look back collectively and take stock from our mistakes.  
I really don't see an issue with words like extinction, but because it might not happen in the next 30 years people don't see it as a problem. 200 years is nothing in the grand scheme of mankind, zilch in terms of the life of the planet. I'd be utterly staggered if it didn't pan out that we manage to totally eff up the planet (just as we are right now), it's hard to make a case that we actually deserve to survive as a species. Very clever and very flawed and very tribal, not a great mix really.

I can agree with most of that. Re. the last bit, that seems be in vogue at the moment. Perhaps those who trot that out can help out a little bit by removing themselves from both the planet and its human gene pool? Nothing personal Digs!

We're a product of, and vessel for our genes; we're doing what we're meant to do and to be fair, we're the first species that has developed the ability to trash its own planet, have the self-awareness to identify issues like this all the while still encompassing masses of individual humans who're basically selfish. Most other species can do the selfish, tribal bit, but don't possess the means to destroy their own habitat. We're clever enough to see the problem, but as a species are we clever enough to sort it out? Time will tell.

Offing myself is one thing Navy, I've already expanded my gene pool though and don't feel I can take my failings out on my kids, tempting as it is.
Lot's of interesting (scary) times ahead no doubt. Pertinent again, how long will we see democracy play a large part in how we exist, is it a failing concept, do most people even want control over their own destinies, just look at how many people go through life never voting (though of course, still moaning).


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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 7:25 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.
Not sure what you wrote makes any sense. Australia is enjoying its increasing drought conditions is it? North America having fun with its autumnal hurricane systems is it?
It was Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Canada, Alaska, Finland I was referring to.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 7:26 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.
Isolated the menioned countries will benefit from global warming.

Or alternatively, they find out what mass immigration really means.
Indeed. Kind of a lose-lose situation whatever way you cut it.
And what’s wrong with immigrants? Which by the way wouldn’t be an issue unless there’s over-population mac?

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 7:31 pm

Is super in reality the reincarnation of Einstein?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46438116

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Roller_Coaster on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 7:49 am

pedro wrote:Is super in reality the reincarnation of Einstein?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46438116

No. Einstein liked Tiger Woods.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:15 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Hard to think what I'm more bored of, Brexit or the constant "impending doom" from Climate Change.
I'm sick of hearing about both.
We keep hearing threats of human extinction, yet I don't see how that is remotely possible when humans have lived through far worse environments and climates in the last 200k years all without the benefit of technology.

We should stop worrying about the state of the climate and trying to reverse it (who decides on a base level anyway, as it's a bit like trying to hold back the tide) and put our efforts into using technology to deal with the impact of climate change.
 As Europeans, there is pretty much nothing we can do to stop it given the pollution from America, China and India and in most parts of the developed world outweigh by many times what we as a fairly efficient continent,  the effects of climate change are pretty manageable for all of us in Europe anyway. The over-reaction is getting far too hysterical.

How is climate change going to kill off Europe? It won't. What's the worst that can happen in Europe or Britain? A wee bit of flooding? Big deal.
Strangely, some of us might feel that, say, Bangladesh or the Maldives being submerged is kind of a big deal. The World's a little bigger than your pre-WWI imperial/monarchist view would suggest. The idea that we have 'technology' (whatever the **** that means) to fix it, and that's a panacea, is daft. It'll also come way too late.

Christ, Talk about missing the point. I didn't claim we had technology to FIX climate change, I said we can develop methods using technology which will help to mitigate the effects of it, for example coastal defences, flood measures, better drainage, more green spaces, flood storage etc. That's what we should be concentrating on. The gases changing climate change are already out there. If we reduced our output by 50% today, it would still take decades for anything to change in the climate, hence we have to use what methods we have, and will develop to fight the effects of climate change, not look for a way to reverse it. We should be looking at BOTH, reducing greenhouse gases AND developing methods to fight the effects.
I don't think I did miss your point, which was Europe's OK, Jack; the rest can go drown/desiccate/freeze/be blown to oblivion. Just so you know, it's not all about rising flood waters - have a look at the UK's latitude sometime and refresh your memory as to what drives the Gulf Stream and how that'll be affected if the Greenland ice sheet disappears. Thought you might have appreciated that; but maybe not.

You're correct re. the role that technology can play as part of any fix, but the rest of your attitude appears misinformed and a little narrow-minded.

That wasn't my point, my point was that if something is claimed as being an extinction event, then how can that possibly be when Australia, South America, North America, Russia, most of Africa and Europe would be affected to a fairly minimal level.

I've yet to hear from these doom mongers by what means we are all likely to perish, have you?

Yes, I'm aware of what will happen if the gulf stream changes, we get more Nordic/Arctic weather, but that doesn't mean we'll all suddenly die off. It's not affected Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Russia, Canada, Alaska, Finland in a human extinction way has it? We simply learn to adapt and develop our infrastructure and lives to cope. It's what we've done for hundreds of thousands of years, and at no time in human history have we been better prepared to adapt to change.

Yes, Climate change is real, and we as a population have contributed over the last 500 years to some sort of level to this, but people are getting rather hysterical about something which isn't really all that catastrophic, and certainly not a mass extinction event.
There. If only you'd phrased things like that in the first place. You're right of course in that a bit of arctic weather isn't going to do for all of us, but I'm not sure that's a reason to ignore the climate scientists re. CO2 etc. I'm not sure the countries you mention won't be affected by global warming though - flooded? Nope. Other affects? Almost certainly.

Anyway, it's not just us is it? Other species are not going to have time to adapt - some species might make it, but many won't. Yes, I know about the dinosaurs etc, but again, I'm not sure that saying some people/species will be OK is reason to sit on our arses and ignore the climate science and the warnings from those scientists etc.

I'm not saying to ignore their claims on CO2, I'm saying that interspersing the science with their specific and ridiculous claims that it's an " human extinction event" is not helpful to the debate. It's scaremongering, sensationalism and simply not true.

Human's didn't die out in the last ice age in Europe which was only 10,000 years ago, we haven't died out through all the terrible diseases we've seen throughout the millennia like the bubonic plague , we haven't all died from cancer or from wars or natural disasters. We adapt to change, and we'll adapt to climate change too, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something about it, but saying we're all going to die makes a mockery of the actual science.

An extinction event would be something like the meteor 66million years ago, not a bit of a change to weather patterns, which might manifest in some countries and some people suffering, but it's not an event which will do much more than inconvenience a lot of people, now I'm not saying sit on your hands and get on with it, or that it's ok that people will suffer as long as it isn't me, Europe, etc but calling that a mass extinction event of the human race is as crazy as denying climate change is happening in the first place.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:21 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:...The most annoying thing is that the absurd claim is we are facing a "human extinction" event due to climate change. Utter claptrap.
What's more annoying is that, given we don't actually know but the consequences could be a 'human extinction', we're doing stuff all about minimising the sorts of pollution that may well precipitate just that. It should be standard practice to stop polluting the planet with schidt, but we're so dumb that's what we do.

You're probably correct in suggesting humanity may well survive whatever might be on the way, but you can bet it'll be a tiny proportion of the global population and doing so will be a jolly time for all. Glad you're happy with the probable deaths of billions in order to argue that humanity won't actually become extinct.

Your arguments re. UK pollution in the Victorian age vs. that of India/China now are pretty specious given we're talking about maybe 20-30 million (or less?) in the UK then vs. >1 billion in India and even more than that in China now. Happy to bet that per capita, we were just as bad then as they are now.

There's no evidence that "billions" will die though Navy, that's the entire point and is making the entire climate change argument rather misleading. Yes, climate change is real, but spreading scare stories about "Billions of people dying" based on no evidence is taking credibility away from the argument, just like your claim that only a "tiny proportion" will survive. Humanity has dealt with a great deal worse than the sort of climate change they are talking about throughout history and survived.

How are billions of people going to die exactly? I've yet to hear any reasons why or how this could happen.

The term "extinction event" makes people believe it's both rapid and imminent. It's sensationalist journalism at its worst.

As for your claim that we shouldn't be polluting, yes that's true, but in reality there is pretty much no alternative if we want to continue living the way we want to live. In effect it's nimbyism. We want to stop polluting, or rather we want others to stop polluting, but we don't want to be inconvenienced by it. We can't have it both ways. Think of everything in your life that you enjoy or even that you deem necessary and which has a polluting effect which is pretty much everything you use, buy, consume, take part in. How many would be willing to give them up? Plenty will claim they would, in reality they won't. Champagne Environmentalism, typical of your Mac type person.
All good points. As I said before, we don't know what the end point of this is in respect of climate. We also don't know what the knock-on effects (i.e. wars) will be. One would hope billions aren't going to end up dead as a result, but they could. I'm not suggesting it's next week, and it's not my fault if Joe Public hears 'extinction event' and are daft enough to think it's imminent.
Your last paragraph is spot on, but it's clear we (i.e. the so-called 'first world') are the one's who have to lead on this. We're causing the damage.

India and China aren't really first world countries. 2 Countries that are responsible for over 1/3rd of the worlds pollution and at best they're developing countries, while a lot of slash and burn is done in the developing, third world. Yes, the "first world countries" have a part to play, but every country does, and we shouldn't just blame the wealthy countries and self flagellate. Third world countries aren't just still living in mud huts off the land, they're also guilty.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:52 am

Diggers wrote:

Pertinent again, how long will we see democracy play a large part in how we exist, is it a failing concept, do most people even want control over their own destinies, just look at how many people go through life never voting (though of course, still moaning).


Not sure it's a failing concept but it's certainly going through some "challenges". If we give up on democracy then we give up on any hope. We could though and just let the Bilderberg group and the Illuminati get on with it. Anyone care to speculate how that would work out for the masses??

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Diggers on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 9:32 am

JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:

    Pertinent again, how long will we see democracy play a large part in how we exist, is it a failing concept, do most people even want control over their own destinies, just look at how many people go through life never voting (though of course, still moaning).


Not sure it's a failing concept but it's certainly going through some "challenges". If we give up on democracy then we give up on any hope. We could though and just let the Bilderberg group and the Illuminati get on with it. Anyone care to speculate how that would work out for the masses??

I'm not that sure it would really make that much difference. They would probably deliver more or less what this Tory Govt delivers anyway. Why would the people making the decisions have to be self serving, I know they probably would be, but it is possible that we have fair minded, highly intelligent decision makers acting for the greater good, not dictators but as a council.
Broadly speaking, we've existed as a species without democracy for most of our time on this planet, it may be a an old idea but it has never been applied in a full sense until relatively recently.
I guess that's a big part of the Brexit debate, an unelected body controlling us. Personally, through my time on this planet I've never felt the decisions made in Brussels were detrimental to me or the UK. They never thought up closing down heavy industry as an ideology, they never came up with the poll tax, they never decided to invade Iraq. That was all down to our elected representatives.
I'm not for one second saying that the failure of democracy is something I'd relish, just that in many ways it's already happening, we aren't nearly as democratic as we'd like to think, and that's just the UK. Does anyone believe Russia is a democracy?


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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 9:47 am

Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:

    Pertinent again, how long will we see democracy play a large part in how we exist, is it a failing concept, do most people even want control over their own destinies, just look at how many people go through life never voting (though of course, still moaning).


Not sure it's a failing concept but it's certainly going through some "challenges". If we give up on democracy then we give up on any hope. We could though and just let the Bilderberg group and the Illuminati get on with it. Anyone care to speculate how that would work out for the masses??

I'm not that sure it would really make that much difference. They would probably deliver more or less what this Tory Govt delivers anyway. Why would the people making the decisions have to be self serving, I know they probably would be, but it is possible that we have fair minded, highly intelligent decision makers acting for the greater good, not dictators but as a council.
Broadly speaking, we've existed as a species without democracy for most of our time on this planet, it may be a an old idea but it has never been applied in a full sense until relatively recently.
I guess that's a big part of the Brexit debate, an unelected body controlling us. Personally, through my time on this planet I've never felt the decisions made in Brussels were detrimental to me or the UK. They never thought up closing down heavy industry as an ideology, they never came up with the poll tax, they never decided to invade Iraq. That was all down to our elected representatives.
I'm not for one second saying that the failure of democracy is something I'd relish, just that in many ways it's already happening, we aren't nearly as democratic as we'd like to think, and that's just the UK. Does anyone believe Russia is a democracy?


I love that it's inferred it's only Tory governments who don't deliver. I can't remember our last decent government.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 11:16 am

super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:

    Pertinent again, how long will we see democracy play a large part in how we exist, is it a failing concept, do most people even want control over their own destinies, just look at how many people go through life never voting (though of course, still moaning).


Not sure it's a failing concept but it's certainly going through some "challenges". If we give up on democracy then we give up on any hope. We could though and just let the Bilderberg group and the Illuminati get on with it. Anyone care to speculate how that would work out for the masses??

I'm not that sure it would really make that much difference. They would probably deliver more or less what this Tory Govt delivers anyway. Why would the people making the decisions have to be self serving, I know they probably would be, but it is possible that we have fair minded, highly intelligent decision makers acting for the greater good, not dictators but as a council.
Broadly speaking, we've existed as a species without democracy for most of our time on this planet, it may be a an old idea but it has never been applied in a full sense until relatively recently.
I guess that's a big part of the Brexit debate, an unelected body controlling us. Personally, through my time on this planet I've never felt the decisions made in Brussels were detrimental to me or the UK. They never thought up closing down heavy industry as an ideology, they never came up with the poll tax, they never decided to invade Iraq. That was all down to our elected representatives.
I'm not for one second saying that the failure of democracy is something I'd relish, just that in many ways it's already happening, we aren't nearly as democratic as we'd like to think, and that's just the UK. Does anyone believe Russia is a democracy?


I love that it's inferred it's only Tory governments who don't deliver. I can't remember our last decent government.

That's probably because there hasn't been one that's been universally appreciated. The best chance we had of a decent govt in our lifetime was the Blair Govt but for all the promise they were a massive disappointment. Yes they did some good in places and delivered quite a few things but more than cancelled out by a) the Iraq war and b) Either failing to notice or failing to put the necessary steps in place to prevent a massive banking crisis blowing up in their face. I could feel inclined to defend it by saying the original problem was not of their making (it wasn't) and way too big for any National Govt to contain on its own but in the late 90's early 00's (10 years before it went splat!!) Blair had such a strong mandate he could have taken on the banks regarding credit controls, they MUST have known credit was running out of control, yet they did nothing. I do sometimes wonder if that was the source of ongoing friction between Blair and Brown. Anyway, I digress, I would also say that Tory governments DO deliver, they deliver for the top 1%, top 5% maybe if they're really "good". Of course that means that at least 95% of of us have every right to say they don't deliver and those that work in any public service should be able to quite vividly colour in that assertion.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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