Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

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Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Pot Hale on 20/10/2018, 03:09

First topic message reminder :

Italy 3 Nov - Chicago - Ireland 54-7
Argentina 10 Nov Dublin - 28-17
New Zealand 17 Nov Dublin 16-9
USA 24 Nov Dublin - 52-14

November Total - 150-47

Frontrowers
Rory Best 112 (c)
Rob Herring 6
Sean Cronin 63
Niall Scannell 10

Tadhg Furlong 26
Andrew Porter 9
John Ryan 15

Finlay Bealham 8
Cian Healy 81
Dave Kilcoyne 23
Jack McGrath 51


Locks
Tadhg Beirne 3
Iain Henderson 40 USA
Quinn Roux 7
James Ryan 11
Devin Toner 61

Backrowers

Dan Leavy 10
Josh van der Flier 11
Jordi Murphy 23
Sean O’Brien 51
Peter O’Mahony 50 (vc)
Rhys Ruddock 20
Jack Conan 10
CJ Stander 26


Scrumhalves
John Cooney 3
Kieran Marmion 22
Luke McGrath 6

10s
Jonathan Sexton 76 (vc)
Ross Byrne 2
Joey Carbery 14

Centres
Garry Ringrose 15
Robbie Henshaw 36
Will Addison 2
Bundee Aki 10
Sam Arnold 1
Stuart McCloskey 3

Back three
Andrew Conway 8
Keith Earls 70
Rob Kearney 86
Jordan Larmour 7
Jacob Stockdale 12
Darren Sweetnam 3



Last edited by Pot Hale on 25/11/2018, 13:08; edited 14 times in total
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by No 7&1/2 on 18/11/2018, 18:57

Oh. You consider that I believe england are better than wales to be trolling. No. Just what I believe.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 18:57

I personally don't have a problem with 7 or BamBam or TightHead...... or PhilBB...or Guns.  It's a free world (hopefully) in the concept of everyone having an opinion, even niggly barbs or winduppers.
Nothing wrong with a dose of Tet-a-tet in sporting rivalry - and if someone needs a more serious slap down for going overboard then so be it.  No bans needed.  The 'banter' in 606 is bloody mild in comparison to a lot of other stuff cruising the social media networks - bloody mild indeed.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 18/11/2018, 19:01

Wales have the longest losing run of any tier one team against another so wishing for yet another AB game is a bit hollow.

I see some kiwis still take these losses pretty hard looking at some of the comments on fb and the local rags.

These days the bigger picture is so much more important. With a summer to dwell on this and Ireland taking the pressure off the AB expectations slightly todays rugby is about what you can take out of a match.

And the ABs and Ireland will both take very good, yet very different things out of it.

Mind you, good to get a few words in before guns guinness wears off, such was the toll and subsequent relief on this poor fulla.

Summers here. Time to get out and enjoy it

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 19:06

Taylorman wrote:

Summers here. Time to get out and enjoy it

Did I read correctly that there is snow in the South island, Taylor? Was just cruising sites...think it was Stuff that I thought I saw that. Bloody unseasonable weather there if true.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by mikey_dragon on 18/11/2018, 19:20

Taylorman wrote:Wales have the longest losing run of any tier one team against another so wishing for yet another AB game is a bit hollow.

I see some kiwis still take these losses pretty hard looking at some of the comments on fb and the local rags.

These days the bigger picture is so much more important. With a summer to dwell on this and Ireland taking the pressure off the AB expectations slightly todays rugby is about what you can take out of a match.

And the ABs and Ireland will both take very good, yet very different things out of it.

Mind you, good to get a few words in before guns guinness wears off, such was the toll and subsequent relief on this poor fulla.

Summers here. Time to get out and enjoy it

Well you have to aspire towards the best right? Nothing hollow about that. I expect we’ll beat Ireland in the 6N who are now officially the best in the world Wink.

You’re right about the kiwis. Never have I seen a Nation on top for so long be so bitter and unsporting - most of it aimed at Australia which I don’t get seeing as most of you want to live there. I have a a lot of kiwi mates here who are a complete contrast to tman, etc.

ABs next coach needs to come from outside NZ, the front-runners being Schmidt and Gatland as currently they’re the only two not to be vastly underwhelming when not coaching natural born world class. Blackadder and Rennie have been pretty poor.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 18/11/2018, 19:21

SecretFly wrote:
Taylorman wrote:

Summers here. Time to get out and enjoy it

Did I read correctly that there is snow in the South island, Taylor?  Was just cruising sites...think it was Stuff that I thought I saw that.  Bloody unseasonable weather there if true.

Yeah we had a frkn tornado in christchurch where I thought tgey were reserved for Republicans and rednex only. Skiing can go into late November here but temps can also be 30 degrees on the ground a few hundred kms away. You can ski,surf and get a tan on the same day around this time. thumbsup Laugh

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by mikey_dragon on 18/11/2018, 19:22

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh. You consider that I believe england are better than wales to be trolling. No. Just what I believe.


Really, you’re STILL chatting about Wales? You believe that you’re better than Ireland and Wales when England are ranked outside the top 3, and finished 5th in the 6N. #delusional

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 19:24

mikey_dragon wrote:

ABs next coach needs to come from outside NZ, the front-runners being Schmidt and Gatland

I hope Joe draws the short straw, mikey Wink

Gatland deserves it much more. I'll vote for him anyway. The AB coach should be voted on by the Worldwide rugby union fan base.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by No 7&1/2 on 18/11/2018, 19:30

You're in a strange mood today mikey. And yup don't think the rankings are that great tbh.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by majesticimperialman on 18/11/2018, 19:35

SecretFly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:

ABs next coach needs to come from outside NZ, the front-runners being Schmidt and Gatland  

I hope Joe draws the short straw, mikey Wink

Gatland deserves it much more.  I'll vote for him anyway.  The AB coach should be voted on by the Worldwide rugby union fan base.

Why does Gatland deserve it more than Joe Schmidt? As Gatland ever beaten the Abs with Wales? I don't think so.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 19:37

majesticimperialman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:

ABs next coach needs to come from outside NZ, the front-runners being Schmidt and Gatland  

I hope Joe draws the short straw, mikey Wink

Gatland deserves it much more.  I'll vote for him anyway.  The AB coach should be voted on by the Worldwide rugby union fan base.

Why does Gatland deserve it more than  Joe Schmidt? As Gatland ever beaten the Abs with Wales? I don't think so.

I'm allowed to dream, majestic. I'll even pay for a handful of fraud votes if it helps.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by majesticimperialman on 18/11/2018, 19:46

Fair enough.

I was just thinking is this not the second time Ireland have beaten the Abs under Schmidt?

One in Chicago and this week end at home.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 19:52

Em..... strange that I have to explain this bit.

I'd kinda like Joe to hang around with Ireland for what I'd consider to be obvious reasons - thus why I'd champion Gatland for the AB job. Call me selfish then, to be more openly direct about it.

Now do you get my meaning, majestic?

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by majesticimperialman on 18/11/2018, 19:55

Yes i get.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by mikey_dragon on 18/11/2018, 20:04

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're in a strange mood today mikey. And yup don't think the rankings are that great tbh.

Like you English have been saying for years, the rankings don’t lie...

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by No 7&1/2 on 18/11/2018, 20:04

Fortunately I've always taken them with a pinch of salt.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 20:07

I prefer mine toasted with a good dollop of real Kerrygold butter.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by mikey_dragon on 18/11/2018, 20:09

SecretFly wrote:Em..... strange that I have to explain this bit.  

I'd kinda like Joe to hang around with Ireland for what I'd consider to be obvious reasons - thus why I'd champion Gatland for the AB job.  Call me selfish then, to be more openly direct about it.  

Now do you get my meaning, majestic?

No need to try and reason with casual fans who tend to hibernate more often than not. I figured that was your reasoning, and Schmidt might stay if he gets ‘snubbed.’ Has he even announced that he’ll be moving on? The only other candidate I can think of is maybe Robertson, which I think is the the 3rd best option.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 18/11/2018, 20:28

Hansen has said he'll decide around Xmas if he's going to continue. Should the ABs win the world cup again its more likely the incumbant will come from within the panel. Plus theres a culture within the ABs that has had the 'luxury' of being built up over time- the handing over of the responsibility of match day to the team.

An incoming coach cant expect to be then giving rark up half time speeches that takes that away. Its a long learned process that has allowed the ABs to remain at the top for a long time. Neither Schmidt nor Gatland have that experience, so a couple of wins versus the ABs is hardly a primary reason to select the new coach. Familiarity with both Super Rugby and the current AB culture is much more important.

Not saying either wouldn't be good coaches, they probably would, but this is not a top dog contest, continuity is important, critical.

Best chance for Schmidt or Gatland to take the top position would be if they were to win the World cup. That would be the only thing I can think of that would allow for wider thinking of the status quo, a real reason to question the status quo. The odd win as happened here isnt enough to suggest the foundation that's been created over 14 years is fragile. AB's are not as good as previously but they're also not the basket case of the two previous number ones when they fell off.

But certainly if we lost the cup I'd be looking at new blood, Robertson of Crusaders is certainly our most promising up and comer, and Schmidt, but I'd prefer to have Foster as caretaker for a season or two to blood them in, and remain if hes successful. Under the current regime...its his 'turn'.

I think Gats has missed the boat for this round.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 20:35

mikey_dragon wrote:Has he even announced that he’ll be moving on?

The announcement on his future is close. We're trying to read his every word and movement right now for hints. If he decides to go home, so be it, we'll have the changing of the guard. But it's been a nice story: Joe + Leinster + Ireland. Kinda want it to linger longer.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 20:40

Taylorman wrote:Hansen has said he'll decide around Xmas if he's going to continue. Should the ABs win the world cup again its more likely the incumbant will come from within the panel. Plus theres a culture within the ABs that has had the 'luxury' of being built up over time- the handing over of the responsibility of match day to the team.

An incoming coach cant expect to be then giving rark up half time speeches that takes that away. Its a long learned process that has allowed the ABs to remain at the top for a long time. Neither Schmidt nor Gatland have that experience, so a couple of wins versus the ABs is hardly a primary reason to select the new coach. Familiarity with both Super Rugby and the current AB culture is much more important.

Not saying either wouldn't be good coaches, they probably would, but this is not a top dog contest, continuity is important, critical.

Best chance for Schmidt or Gatland to take the top position would be if they were to win the World cup. That would be the only thing I can think of that would allow for wider thinking of the status quo, a real reason to question the status quo. The odd win as happened here isnt enough to suggest the foundation that's been created over 14 years is fragile. AB's are not as good as previously but they're also not the basket case of the two previous number ones when they fell off.

But certainly if we lost the cup I'd be looking at new blood, Robertson of Crusaders is certainly our most promising up and comer, and Schmidt, but I'd prefer to have Foster as caretaker for a season or two to blood them in, and remain if hes successful. Under the current regime...its his 'turn'.

I think Gats has missed the boat for this round.

I'd say Schmidt would be familiar with all of those conditions or traditions.  And I've said before that it might (just might) be a reason why he'd elect to stay with us.  Here he's already Number 1, he doesn't have to do a few years back at Club or as International assistant.  He's boss of his own destiny in terms of presenting an International side ready to do battle at the highest levels of the sport.  He isn't getting any younger.  Not so sure he'd be the kind of person to go back to club just yet or back to an assistant role.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by The Oracle on 18/11/2018, 21:11

I’m an outsider to NZ so don’t have much knowledge of the inner workings of the All Blacks, but I always felt that Gatland or Schmidt (or anyone else from NZ coaching overseas for that matter) would need to go back home and coach a Super Rugby franchise (successfully, obviously) before being offered a role in the All Blacks setup, regardless of how much success they had overseas. For the reasons Taylorman says, even with success like Schmidt has had in the NH, I just can’t see him waltzing straight in to the AB job. They seem to promote from within. Not that they can’t or won’t change, but the way they do it currently seems to work just fine so why change?
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 21:34

The Oracle wrote: but I always felt that Gatland or Schmidt (or anyone else from NZ coaching overseas for that matter) would need to go back home and coach a Super Rugby franchise (successfully, obviously) before being offered a role in the All Blacks setup

Hansen himself walked straight out of Wales into an AB assistant role.  So, nope, there is no need to do a Super Rugby stint immediately before an AB role.

Hansen did 3 year stint as assistant at Crusaders...but before going to Wales.
Schmidt did a 3 year stint as assistant at Blues... before going to Europe, Clermont, Leinster and Ireland.

Oh he's qualified alright.  But he's a useless bloody coach so I still say Gats should get the job - or Foster, who knows an Irishman when he sees one Wink

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 18/11/2018, 21:48

SecretFly wrote:
The Oracle wrote: but I always felt that Gatland or Schmidt (or anyone else from NZ coaching overseas for that matter) would need to go back home and coach a Super Rugby franchise (successfully, obviously) before being offered a role in the All Blacks setup

Hansen himself walked straight out of Wales into an AB assistant role.  So, nope, there is no need to do a Super Rugby stint immediately before an AB role.

Hansen did 3 year stint as assistant at Crusaders...but before going to Wales.
Schmidt did a 3 year stint as assistant at Blues... before going to Europe, Clermont, Leinster and Ireland.

Oh he's qualified alright.  But he's a useless bloody coach so I still say Gats should get the job - or Foster, who knows an Irishman when he sees one Wink

Exactly, assistant role. It took him another 8 years to take the top role, and that period was critical.

Fine with Schmidt coming in as assistant, I'd even want him in a Super role as well. Foster could replace Hansen and move out when Schmidts had a couple of years.

The other thing is the ABs also want a certain type of coach. Schmidts style isnt based on a huge amount of innovation. He's a low percentage risk coach, and has heavy emphasis on set piece and defence that served to stop the AB's from doing what they try to do most, attack.

He would need to show he has the level of innovation on attack that he has on operating from a low risk base.

There's no point bringing a focus on set piece and defence as the basis for an AB squad. Abs dont go out to strangle sides as a basis for winning, they go out to attack and score heavily and early to put sides away, battling only when they fail to do that, as is what happened vs Ireland and England, and SA. That model still works 90% of the time in recent years, even though its dipped lately.

NZ's response to this wont be to tighten their game up, it will be to find ways of overcoming the heavy defensive strategy Schmidt and Farrell have evolved.

NZers are accustomed to playing and watching entertaining rugby. Take that away and replace it with low risk rugby and the game will die here.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by mikey_dragon on 18/11/2018, 21:51

But like I said we have seasoned super rugby coaches up here who have been very underwhelming. Gatland didn’t get a super rugby contract and might not want one, however his record at every team is impressive; Connacht, Ireland and Waikato to a lesser extent; Wasps, Wales and Lions to a great extent.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 22:00

Taylorman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
The Oracle wrote: but I always felt that Gatland or Schmidt (or anyone else from NZ coaching overseas for that matter) would need to go back home and coach a Super Rugby franchise (successfully, obviously) before being offered a role in the All Blacks setup

Hansen himself walked straight out of Wales into an AB assistant role.  So, nope, there is no need to do a Super Rugby stint immediately before an AB role.

Hansen did 3 year stint as assistant at Crusaders...but before going to Wales.
Schmidt did a 3 year stint as assistant at Blues... before going to Europe, Clermont, Leinster and Ireland.

Oh he's qualified alright.  But he's a useless bloody coach so I still say Gats should get the job - or Foster, who knows an Irishman when he sees one Wink

Exactly, assistant role. It took him another 8 years to take the top role, and that period was critical.

Fine with Schmidt coming in as assistant, I'd even want him in a Super role as well. Foster could replace Hansen and move out when Schmidts had a couple of years.

The other thing is the ABs also want a certain type of coach. Schmidts style isnt based on a huge amount of innovation. He's a low percentage risk coach, and has heavy emphasis on set piece and defence that served to stop the AB's from doing what they try to do most, attack.

He would need to show he has the level of innovation on attack that he has on operating from a low risk base.

There's no point bringing a focus on set piece and defence as the basis for an AB squad. Abs dont go out to strangle sides as a basis for winning, they go out to attack and score heavily and early to put sides away, battling only when they fail to do that, as is what happened vs Ireland and England, and SA. That model still works 90% of the time in recent years, even though its dipped lately.

NZ's response to this wont be to tighten their game up, it will be to find ways of overcoming the heavy defensive strategy Schmidt and Farrell have evolved.

NZers are accustomed to playing and watching entertaining rugby. Take that away and replace it with low risk rugby and the game will die here.

We seem to agree, Taylor. New Zealand should be straight with Joe, tell him that they respect him but that they want to go another route for AB successor coach. That way Joe can decide to stay here without any worries about 'what if'. Everyone is happy. It's a deal. I'll phone Joe this instant and tell him the good news.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 18/11/2018, 22:16

Its just a minor. We'll have an attacking regime here that he'll be right at home with anyway and many of his wins have been heavy try scoring so no reason that wont happen here.

How about you keep Schmidt and we'll take Farrell then? Whistle

For one, he'll add to our defence, especially with Smith gone, and most of all, he wont be with any northern side so we can keep him on ice during the World cup. Laugh drumroll

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on 18/11/2018, 22:19

Great game. Slightly disappointed with the last 20 mins. We should have been at least two scores up by then. But that is testament to how hard it is to beat the ABs.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 18/11/2018, 22:31

Taylorman wrote:Its just a minor. We'll have an attacking regime here that he'll be right at home with anyway and many of his wins have been heavy try scoring so no reason that wont happen here.

How about you keep Schmidt and we'll take Farrell then? Whistle

For one, he'll add to our defence, especially with Smith gone, and most of all, he wont be with any northern side so we can keep him on ice during the World cup. Laugh drumroll

You can have Farrell if you want him and he wants to go.  

I'd back Joe to find another defensive coach to do a deal for the players there.  

You see it's also the honesty of players to fully service an energy sapping defensive gameplan that makes a defensive gameplan work.  Anything can look good on paper.  Irish players don't mind being called rustic and unspectacular.  They see the bigger picture and they like that view.  Would ABs really value a defensive coach who proposed that they give more of their gametime to stopping an opponent than ...well, attacking an opponent?  

Some think Ireland defend because they can't attack...nope, it's a gameplan....................... and it works. Those outlandish kick-aways are directed (Marmion didn't decide on the tactic himself). But first you need the humility to make it work.  Have the ABs, as a team of ambition, enough of that quality?

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on 18/11/2018, 22:56

I wonder if guns is Neil Francis in disguise. I just read his review of the game and he picked out vdf as the standout player. Now while josh was very good ( and is a very good player) his two colleagues in the back row, as well as Ryan (already better than POC) and furlong were the benchmark in the pack.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 18/11/2018, 23:17

mikey_dragon wrote:But like I said we have seasoned super rugby coaches up here who have been very underwhelming. Gatland didn’t get a super rugby contract and might not want one, however his record at every team is impressive; Connacht, Ireland and Waikato to a lesser extent; Wasps, Wales and Lions to a great extent.

Some of them were underwhelming here as well. And, you dont have the style nor cattle that our sides do so for some, coaching ability needs to be analysed further, or you have to get ‘lucky’.

Same with players. A homesick one will never be any good, where one without the constant pressure from friends family and media to make the ABs might thrive.

Over time professionals will warm to the reality of moving around, but trends, rather than individuals tend to be more reliable.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on 18/11/2018, 23:22

Regarding joe and the ABs job he has definitely piqued their interest. The question is whether they think he is a taskmaster or something else and that is something that are not sure of yet. It’s the Carlos Spencer question. 

As for Gatland. Not a hope in hell.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 18/11/2018, 23:43

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Regarding joe and the ABs job he has definitely piqued their interest. The question is whether they think he is a taskmaster or something else and that is something that are not sure of yet. It’s the Carlos Spencer question. 

As for Gatland. Not a hope in hell.

He has, but he needs to pique the right interest. Fans will jump on it, whether the NZRFU does is another matter. Its not as if they wont have their own think well before this test.

Until then, I think we need to unretire Wayne Smith for a year. Time out must have given him a fresh petspective.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Pie on 19/11/2018, 02:41

ABs v Boks in Japan just became even more interesting as both sides know that to lose will inevitably mean an Irish quarter final neither will want to take on so early

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 19/11/2018, 03:38

Pie wrote:ABs v Boks in Japan just became even more interesting as both sides know that to lose will inevitably mean an Irish quarter final neither will want to take on so early

Yeah you could say that I guess, ABs not one to ever be concerned who they play. Theyve met many number two ranked sides after having lost two them and won.

Youd think Ireland probably doesnt want to lose to Scotland as well huh, not ever having got past the quarters. Swings and roundabouts.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Pie on 19/11/2018, 05:59

Okay you can disregard whats in front of your face if you want, but lets hope your coaches aren't. if NZ learned anything in Dublin it is that they'd probably rather face the Scots in a quarter than Ireland who are very likely to beat them. NZ didn't even look like scoring and crumbled under pressure into a totally ill disciplined side.

And this idea that Ireland never got past a quarter is entirely irrelevant now. Ireland just beat NZ without a quarter of their first choice starters.


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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 19/11/2018, 06:14

Pie wrote:Okay you can disregard whats in front of your face if you want, but lets hope your coaches aren't. if NZ learned anything in Dublin it is that they'd probably rather face the Scots in a quarter than Ireland who are very likely to beat them. NZ didn't even look like scoring and crumbled under pressure into a totally ill disciplined side.

And this idea that Ireland never got past a quarter is entirely irrelevant now. Ireland just beat NZ without a quarter of their first choice starters.


Whos disregarding anything? You dont think Ireland would rather face SA instead of NZ? Thats not disregarding anything? Yeah, Im sure they wont be at all concerned facing the twice defending champs, number one ranked side in a match theyve lost eight straight previously...to NON number ones. All because they won a one off in November at home...please.

Whos doing the disregarding?

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Biltong on 19/11/2018, 06:41

Taylorman wrote:Hansen has said he'll decide around Xmas if he's going to continue. Should the ABs win the world cup again its more likely the incumbant will come from within the panel. Plus theres a culture within the ABs that has had the 'luxury' of being built up over time- the handing over of the responsibility of match day to the team.

An incoming coach cant expect to be then giving rark up half time speeches that takes that away. Its a long learned process that has allowed the ABs to remain at the top for a long time. Neither Schmidt nor Gatland have that experience, so a couple of wins versus the ABs is hardly a primary reason to select the new coach. Familiarity with both Super Rugby and the current AB culture is much more important.

Not saying either wouldn't be good coaches, they probably would, but this is not a top dog contest, continuity is important, critical.

Best chance for Schmidt or Gatland to take the top position would be if they were to win the World cup. That would be the only thing I can think of that would allow for wider thinking of the status quo, a real reason to question the status quo. The odd win as happened here isnt enough to suggest the foundation that's been created over 14 years is fragile. AB's are not as good as previously but they're also not the basket case of the two previous number ones when they fell off.

But certainly if we lost the cup I'd be looking at new blood, Robertson of Crusaders is certainly our most promising up and comer, and Schmidt, but I'd prefer to have Foster as caretaker for a season or two to blood them in, and remain if hes successful. Under the current regime...its his 'turn'.

I think Gats has missed the boat for this round.

The success of All Black rugby has been their continuity of knowledge transfer, and that the assistant being promoted has intimate knowledge of the structures, processes, players and game plan.

I would expect New Zealand rugby to be smart enough to continue that process to appoint from within.
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Taylorman on 19/11/2018, 07:10

Biltong wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Hansen has said he'll decide around Xmas if he's going to continue. Should the ABs win the world cup again its more likely the incumbant will come from within the panel. Plus theres a culture within the ABs that has had the 'luxury' of being built up over time- the handing over of the responsibility of match day to the team.

An incoming coach cant expect to be then giving rark up half time speeches that takes that away. Its a long learned process that has allowed the ABs to remain at the top for a long time. Neither Schmidt nor Gatland have that experience, so a couple of wins versus the ABs is hardly a primary reason to select the new coach. Familiarity with both Super Rugby and the current AB culture is much more important.

Not saying either wouldn't be good coaches, they probably would, but this is not a top dog contest, continuity is important, critical.

Best chance for Schmidt or Gatland to take the top position would be if they were to win the World cup. That would be the only thing I can think of that would allow for wider thinking of the status quo, a real reason to question the status quo. The odd win as happened here isnt enough to suggest the foundation that's been created over 14 years is fragile. AB's are not as good as previously but they're also not the basket case of the two previous number ones when they fell off.

But certainly if we lost the cup I'd be looking at new blood, Robertson of Crusaders is certainly our most promising up and comer, and Schmidt, but I'd prefer to have Foster as caretaker for a season or two to blood them in, and remain if hes successful. Under the current regime...its his 'turn'.

I think Gats has missed the boat for this round.

The success of All Black rugby has been their continuity of knowledge transfer, and that the assistant being promoted has intimate knowledge of the structures, processes, players and game plan.

I would expect New Zealand rugby to be smart enough to continue that process to appoint from within.

Yes so would I, weve had so many kneejerk sack em all when we lose world cups that we’re unlikely to go back to that. Lost 91, sack coach et all, lost 95, sack coach, lost 99, sack coach, lost 2003, sack coach.

Lost 2007...hmmm. Perhaps sacking isnt the answer. Reappoint coach, and appoint from within thereafter to ensure continuity. Won 2011, won 2015. What we have now is the result of a very, very, long learning curve. Theyre not likely to wind back the clock on this one. Bring in the next potentials as assistants for sure, but that will mean former head coaches just might have to take a back seat for a while, as Hansen did. If Gats nor Schmidt cant work on that basis, theyre not right for the job.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by The Great Aukster on 19/11/2018, 09:52

Schmidt wouldn't be a good fit for NZ. They have too many players and he would be constantly having to reset his individual programmes as ones he had invested in, left to make their fortunes in Europe.

Schmidt wouldn't be a good fit for England either as they have so many players, the coach never gets to stick with any individual long enough before they are undermined by the short termist media trumpeting the latest MOTM from the previous weekend.

Joe is about the long haul, developing a team from a very limited group of players, hence his success at Ireland. His challenge and skill is to turn sow's ears into silk purses - a rare aptitude and one that neither NZ nor England need (nor the Lions for that matter). Of course if Joe wanted to take the glory and the money, no one in Ireland would begrudge him in the slightest - he is already a legend.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 19/11/2018, 09:54

You can talk up the specialness of Hansen all you like - but it is true that he's more a figurehead who has a lot of talent to select from both in terms of players, coaching assistants and all the other people who collect around a successful International side (analysts, medics etc).  New Zealand have been at the top of the heap for so long that it's quite obvious they too would have all the best behind the scenes underlings who know the 'science' of the game better than anyone on the planet.

Hansen I'm sure is a good coach, but I'm also sure he's more of a director than a man creating all the detail of all the fantastic stuff the ABs are known for doing on the field.

In short, I honestly don't know what any 'external' coach can give to a side that already has everything working like clockwork with joined up thinking deciding everything that happens on a virtual minute by minute basis.  This is the true power of New Zealand rugby, the background meticulousness of the processes that keep innovation going and that keeps producing the special sides and players.  It's a factory system.  So yeah, ABs don't need a coach like Schmidt or Gatland - promoting from within won't upset the machine at all.

So the big question is the others - the outsiders, the other International sides that are on the heels of NZ.  It's all about them and their processes.  

So NZ aren't so much concerned that a Nation like Ireland has a potent coach or coaches that they want their hands on.  The real issue for NZ is that these coaches are not just aiding their teams directly to play better on the day, they more importantly have the instincts and knowledge to change the very processes of player production to produce a better 'product' on a continuous basis.  
Joe Schmidt has been central in changing the very fabric of rugby production.  His role has established a change of emphasis - no longer does Ireland try to find and produce a handful of 'special' players to carry ordinary companions.  Now Ireland realises that you can't keep waiting on 'Golden Generations' to appear once every 15 or 20 years.  You have to have that joined up thinking all the way from school to International... form and create the players you need.  Don't accept that you might not unearth them.  Make it a factory process.  

Now I'm not claiming Joe did or is doing all that on his own.  The IRFU are a very smart outfit of people and Nucifora is doing his bit behind the scenes too.  But it's obvious that Joe Schmidt's fingerprints are all over the more connected processes that are the true development within the Irish Rugby Union systems.

So NZ, if they want Joe Schmidt back at all, they perhaps want him for probably different, more hidden, reasons.  He's better back home not assisting any other Nations efforts to hone their background development processes/thoughts. All is fair in love an war.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by rodders on 19/11/2018, 10:04

Great performance by Ireland, possibly the best yet under Schmidt. Its not often a test match lives up to the hype but that was epic.

In the all black defense I did feel a lot of things were stacked in Ireland's favor going in and the all blacks have had a very tough season where they have had a lot of close games where they've came from behind.

I think talk of Ireland being favorites or the top team is a bit premature but I do think the ABs are starting to creak a bit and a year out from the RWC its not a crisis but there is a cause for concern.

From an Ireland perspective its hard to single anyone out as it was such a good team performance.

Toner I thought was incredible and my MOTM followed by VDF, although some really big match winning moments came from O'Mahoney I can see why he stood out.

Stockdales try was sensational, if O'Driscoll scored it we'd be saying it was one of his best. Aki had a massive a game, alongside Ringrose and Kearney and Best answered their crtitics by showing they have plenty left in the tank at this level.  

A lot of talk prematch about Schmidt but the difference Farrell has made is so obvious, to stop the ABs scoring a try for 80 min is very significant, that is 4 wins over the ABs now he has been involved and the second clean sheet try wise which if it is a coincidence it is an amazing one.

In terms of Barnes, I'm surprised Kearney didn't see yellow but on the flip side I thought he did enough to score in the first half. So although there were a few debatable ones I don't think the officials had a significant influence on the game which is good given some recent controversies in tight games.

Hopefully a few fringe player put their hands up next week and we can round up another successful autumn series.
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by rodders on 19/11/2018, 10:34

The Great Aukster wrote:Schmidt wouldn't be a good fit for NZ.

I agree actually, I think Joe's next move would be back to club rugby, maybe one of the super Rugby franchises.

I'm hoping that the opportunity to take the Lions down to SA might be enough to convince him to stay for another couple of years but the signs are that he is off. Interesting he spoke about working with Farrell in the past tense.

I'm leaning back to Farrell as his successor.
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Biltong on 19/11/2018, 10:37

SecretFly wrote:You can talk up the specialness of Hansen all you like - but it is true that he's more a figurehead who has a lot of talent to select from both in terms of players, coaching assistants and all the other people who collect around a successful International side (analysts, medics etc).  New Zealand have been at the top of the heap for so long that it's quite obvious they too would have all the best behind the scenes underlings who know the 'science' of the game better than anyone on the planet.

Hansen I'm sure is a good coach, but I'm also sure he's more of a director than a man creating all the detail of all the fantastic stuff the ABs are known for doing on the field.

In short, I honestly don't know what any 'external' coach can give to a side that already has everything working like clockwork with joined up thinking deciding everything that happens on a virtual minute by minute basis.  This is the true power of New Zealand rugby, the background meticulousness of the processes that keep innovation going and that keeps producing the special sides and players.  It's a factory system.  So yeah, ABs don't need a coach like Schmidt or Gatland - promoting from within won't upset the machine at all.

So the big question is the others - the outsiders, the other International sides that are on the heels of NZ.  It's all about them and their processes.  

So NZ aren't so much concerned that a Nation like Ireland has a potent coach or coaches that they want their hands on.  The real issue for NZ is that these coaches are not just aiding their teams directly to play better on the day, they more importantly have the instincts and knowledge to change the very processes of player production to produce a better 'product' on a continuous basis.  
Joe Schmidt has been central in changing the very fabric of rugby production.  His role has established a change of emphasis - no longer does Ireland try to find and produce a handful of 'special' players to carry ordinary companions.  Now Ireland realises that you can't keep waiting on 'Golden Generations' to appear once every 15 or 20 years.  You have to have that joined up thinking all the way from school to International... form and create the players you need.  Don't accept that you might not unearth them.  Make it a factory process.  

Now I'm not claiming Joe did or is doing all that on his own.  The IRFU are a very smart outfit of people and Nucifora is doing his bit behind the scenes too.  But it's obvious that Joe Schmidt's fingerprints are all over the more connected processes that are the true development within the Irish Rugby Union systems.

So NZ, if they want Joe Schmidt back at all, they perhaps want him for probably different, more hidden, reasons.  He's better back home not assisting any other Nations efforts to hone their background development processes/thoughts.  All is fair in love an war.  

Yup, that is pretty much it.

Build a system and structure that encompasses it all from talent identification and development at school level, right through to international level. Plus the odd classy foreigner Wink
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Brendan on 19/11/2018, 11:12

I guess we are now onto USA. Needs to rack up a big score v USA. We now have squad strenght and the only way to show it is win. No disrespect but a 20pts win by the B team means they are miles off the pace of those who hold the jersey.

Henderson v Bernie for 2nd row bench. If Bernie doesn't have a stomer he won't be in the 23 for the big games in Feb

Centres - who is 4th choice

Scrumhalfs - hope Cooney starts. I think we know 1 and 2. McGrath is good but his passing seem less stable. Also Marmion has never let us down in the biggest games we had recently. Cooney has to know that we will take 2 10s and 2 9s he can play both so if he is the standard he goes as the 5th player. If he and McGrath swapped packs would McGrath look as good.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Brendan on 19/11/2018, 11:16

Also Lamour now is firmly behind the back 3 and needs some big games to get near the team (which could happen). Stockdale when you consider the teams he has played against he has done well and is firmly ahead with Earls v the chasing pack

Kearney is obviously a changling who was swapped by the fairs in Chicago because he has really stepped it back up over the last 3 years.

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by SecretFly on 19/11/2018, 11:22

Call me selfish but I'd hate (well 'severely dislike' then for the perpetually offended) the idea of Joe Schmidt taking on the Lions to SA.  

I'm not a fan of the Lions anyway.  In my view it seeks to degrade the importance of Nation against Nation.  Those Irish victories over the ABs meant....well, it's hard to explain the depth of emotions on the night.... screaming at the TV...felt I played the whole game.... exhausted.
Didn't care about The Lions exploits in New Zealand.  They are another team - not my team.  That's how I've always looked on it.  Indeed, I kinda always have a regard for the lone Nation playing against them.

So I'd like to think Joe would be a two Nation coach - either us (Ireland) or the land of his birth (New Zealand)

Maybe it's a romantic that I am.... Wink  cue the violins that the BBC use when showing cuddly little baby Penguins lost in blizzards....

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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by rodders on 19/11/2018, 11:22

Brendan wrote:I guess we are now onto USA.  Needs to rack up a big score v USA.  We now have squad strenght and the only way to show it is win.  No disrespect but a 20pts win by the B team means they are miles off the pace of those who hold the jersey.

Henderson v Bernie for 2nd row bench.  If Bernie doesn't have a stomer  he won't be in the 23 for the big games in Feb

Centres - who is 4th choice

Scrumhalfs - hope Cooney starts.  I think we know 1 and 2.  McGrath is good but his passing seem less stable. Also Marmion has never let us down in the biggest games we had recently.  Cooney has to know that we will take 2 10s and 2 9s he can play both so if he is the standard he goes as the 5th player. If he and McGrath swapped packs would McGrath look as good.

I think we need to win and win well but wouldn't be so dismissive of the USA giving us a challenge. Hopefully the side have been preparing for this game over the past few weeks so it should be slicker than the Italy game.

I'd like to see Henderson and Beirne start but don't think there is any doubt who the starting locks are if everyone is fit. In fairness to Beirne he can't do much more than he is doing to keep in the frame.

I'm hoping to see McCloskey start, I think he's a guy with great potential if he can prove to Joe's that he can fit the system, similar with Addison both bring a bit of x-factor in attack.

It's great that given we are likely to see so many players rested we can look forward to still seeing a very strong side this weekend.
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by rodders on 19/11/2018, 11:30

SecretFly wrote:Call me selfish but I'd hate (well 'severely dislike' then for the perpetually offended) the idea of Joe Schmidt taking on the Lions to SA.

No I mean it more from the point of view of what might motivate Joe to stay. I don't think irrespective of how Ireland do in Japan that he will commit to a 4 year cycle but he might just be convinced of a 2 year extension before handing over the reigns to Farrell and/or Easterby if there were still some boxes to tick.
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Re: Ireland Squad Nov 2018 - Who’s going to play errr England?

Post by Collapse2005 on 19/11/2018, 11:50

rodders wrote:Great performance by Ireland, possibly the best yet under Schmidt. Its not often a test match lives up to the hype but that was epic.

In the all black defense I did feel a lot of things were stacked in Ireland's favor going in and the all blacks have had a very tough season where they have had a lot of close games where they've came from behind.

I think talk of Ireland being favorites or the top team is a bit premature but I do think the ABs are starting to creak a bit and a year out from the RWC its not a crisis but there is a cause for concern.

From an Ireland perspective its hard to single anyone out as it was such a good team performance.

Toner I thought was incredible and my MOTM followed by VDF, although some really big match winning moments came from O'Mahoney I can see why he stood out.

Stockdales try was sensational, if O'Driscoll scored it we'd be saying it was one of his best. Aki had a massive a game, alongside Ringrose and Kearney and Best answered their crtitics by showing they have plenty left in the tank at this level.  

A lot of talk prematch about Schmidt but the difference Farrell has made is so obvious, to stop the ABs scoring a try for 80 min is very significant, that is 4 wins over the ABs now he has been involved and the second clean sheet try wise which if it is a coincidence it is an amazing one.

In terms of Barnes, I'm surprised Kearney didn't see yellow but on the flip side I thought he did enough to score in the first half. So although there were a few debatable ones I don't think the officials had a significant influence on the game which is good given some recent controversies in tight games.

Hopefully a few fringe player put their hands up next week and we can round up another successful autumn series.

Agree with all that Rodders. Toner was my MOTM too. Although you could have given it to lots of guys including POM, Stockdale etc.

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