November tests general

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November tests general

Post by profitius on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 3:52 pm

First topic message reminder :


The list is below. Any predictions as to what might happen?
https://www.autumn-internationals.co.uk/2018/


WEEK 1
Saturday 3rd November 2018

-Japan v New Zealand
Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo
Kick off: 5:45am

-Wales v Scotland
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:45pm

-England v South Africa
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Ireland v Italy
Soldier Field, Chicago
Kick off: 8:00pm



WEEK 2
Saturday 10th November 2018

-Italy v Georgia
Stadio Artemio Franchi, Florence
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Fiji
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v New Zealand
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v Australia
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v Argentina
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v South Africa
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 3
Saturday 17th November 2018

-Italy v Australia
Stadio Euganeo, Padua
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Wales v Tonga
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Japan
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Scotland v South Africa
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v New Zealand
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 7:00pm

-France v Argentina
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 4
Saturday 24th November 2018

-Italy v New Zealand
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Argentina
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Australia
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v South Africa
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v USA
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v Fiji
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 5
Saturday 1st December 2018

-Barbarians v Argentina
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 2:30pm
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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also Rokodungi (spelling).

Right, so a soldier who was serving in the Armed Forces was only doing so because the RFU picked him out as being good at rugby

OK

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Re: November tests general

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:08 pm

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also Rokodungi (spelling).

Right, so a soldier who was serving in the Armed Forces was only doing so because the RFU picked him out as being good at rugby

OK

A soldier who interestingly had not played rugby other than on the beach until he joined the army.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:08 pm

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also Rokodungi (spelling).

Right, so a soldier who was serving in the Armed Forces was only doing so because the RFU picked him out as being good at rugby

OK

Hes not English though. Rolling Eyes

Also, England do exactly the same thing with young Welsh players as what you accuse New Zealand with when taking young players from Samoa and Tonga.

Why can't people admit this ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:09 pm

Should the fact that he's a soldier make a difference ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:13 pm

The fact that he's served a tour of Afghanistan makes him more than "worthy" of being counted as a British citizen in my book. That he then chose to play for England is completely up to him.

I'd rather have 1 of him than 100 of the wasters around who you would be happy to count as British just because they were born here

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:17 pm

BamBam wrote:The fact that he's served a tour of Afghanistan makes him more than "worthy" of being counted as a British citizen in my book. That he then chose to play for England is completely up to him.

I'd rather have 1 of him than 100 of the wasters around who you would be happy to count as British just because they were born here


That's not what has been spoken about though is it ?

No 7 & 1/2 has come out and said that the RFU do not identify players to play in England, this is a fact that they do.

I am not questioning whether he should or shouldn't play for England.

Of course he is worthy of being a British citizen, but he is as English as I am.

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Re: November tests general

Post by profitius on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also Rokodungi (spelling).

Right, so a soldier who was serving in the Armed Forces was only doing so because the RFU picked him out as being good at rugby

OK

Hes not English though. Rolling Eyes

Also, England do exactly the same thing with young Welsh players as what you accuse New Zealand with when taking young players from Samoa and Tonga.

Why can't people admit this ?

LD, Wales benefits from England a lot more than England benefits from Wales.
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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:23 pm

profitius wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also Rokodungi (spelling).

Right, so a soldier who was serving in the Armed Forces was only doing so because the RFU picked him out as being good at rugby

OK

Hes not English though. Rolling Eyes

Also, England do exactly the same thing with young Welsh players as what you accuse New Zealand with when taking young players from Samoa and Tonga.

Why can't people admit this ?

LD, Wales benefits from England a lot more than England benefits from Wales.

Nope, you are wrong. You need to educate yourself with this, you seriously do. OK

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Re: November tests general

Post by munkian on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:24 pm

profitius wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also Rokodungi (spelling).

Right, so a soldier who was serving in the Armed Forces was only doing so because the RFU picked him out as being good at rugby

OK

Hes not English though. Rolling Eyes

Also, England do exactly the same thing with young Welsh players as what you accuse New Zealand with when taking young players from Samoa and Tonga.

Why can't people admit this ?

LD, Wales benefits from England a lot more than England benefits from Wales.

Only because you've already nicked all of our natural resources Run
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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:25 pm

I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

What's the big deal? More English born players play for Wales than any other country too. I thought you didn't have an issue with NZ offering contracts to island schoolboys. Why does this bother you especially when its just down the road. Down the road vs thousands of miles away. Hmmm.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: November tests general

Post by SecretFly on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:29 pm

Is Prof English?

Boy, I was side footed by that one

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Re: November tests general

Post by SecretFly on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

have they been taken...ie in prison vans with blacked out windows and bars to prevent escape....
...or, did they know where they were going, did their parents know what they were doing, was it an exercise in furthering their own ambitions, wherever those ambitions lay?

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:33 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:The fact that he's served a tour of Afghanistan makes him more than "worthy" of being counted as a British citizen in my book. That he then chose to play for England is completely up to him.

I'd rather have 1 of him than 100 of the wasters around who you would be happy to count as British just because they were born here


That's not what has been spoken about though is it ?

No 7 & 1/2 has come out and said that the RFU do not identify players to play in England, this is a fact that they do.

I am not questioning whether he should or shouldn't play for England.

Of course he is worthy of being a British citizen, but he is as English as I am.

So you're saying that the RFU identified Rokoduguni to play for England. This must have meant their dastardly plan was

1. Convince Semesa's father to join the Armed Forces 30 years ago
2. Convince Semesa to follow in his father's footsteps at the age of 19 and join the Armed Forces
3. Undertake a tour of Afghanistan, and while out on patrol watch his friend's legs be blown off after stepping on a mine
4. Begin playing for his regiment's 7s team, then the Army's 7s team.
5. Work his way into the Army's XV team and score a hatrick against Navy in the annual game at Twickenham, impressing Gary Gold enough to offer him a trial with Bath
6. Finally, after seeing all of the hard work of the past 30 years pay off, Rokoduguni lined up for England for the first time in 2014

This is what you describe as the RFU identifying Roko?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:33 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

What's the big deal? More English born players play for Wales than any other country too. I thought you didn't have an issue with NZ offering contracts to island schoolboys. Why does this bother you especially when its just down the road. Down the road vs thousands of miles away. Hmmm.

It's not a case of where they were born though is it ?

God some people are ignorant. So I guess people like Jonathan Davies, George North, who were born in England, then came to Wales before their 1st birthday, came all the way through the Welsh system, are not Welsh now ?

Check the facts about the schools I have given you, take a look how many young Welsh academy players they have between them because they have come over, offered them money and are now lost to Wales and the regions. I reckon Hartpury must have about 20 on their own.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

have they been taken...ie in prison vans with blacked out windows and bars to prevent escape....
...or, did they know where they were going, did their parents know what they were doing, was it an exercise in furthering their own ambitions, wherever those ambitions lay?

Imagine kids wanting to go to top schools, get a top class private education and still get to play rugby, the sheer cheek of not playing at Aberereereefysesaetawtwyth Community College instead!

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

have they been taken...ie in prison vans with blacked out windows and bars to prevent escape....
...or, did they know where they were going, did their parents know what they were doing, was it an exercise in furthering their own ambitions, wherever those ambitions lay?

It is more of a case that they get offered about 30K and get schooling. When you are offering young kids this opportunity, and when they usually come from a deprived background like the South Wales valleys then it's a no brainer for them.

I will try and find some info on this and post it on here.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:37 pm

BamBam wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

have they been taken...ie in prison vans with blacked out windows and bars to prevent escape....
...or, did they know where they were going, did their parents know what they were doing, was it an exercise in furthering their own ambitions, wherever those ambitions lay?

Imagine kids wanting to go to top schools, get a top class private education and still get to play rugby, the sheer cheek of not playing at Aberereereefysesaetawtwyth Community College instead!

It's the same thing that you all lambast New Zealand for doing. Double standards. That's what it is.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

have they been taken...ie in prison vans with blacked out windows and bars to prevent escape....
...or, did they know where they were going, did their parents know what they were doing, was it an exercise in furthering their own ambitions, wherever those ambitions lay?

It is more of a case that they get offered about 30K and get schooling. When you are offering young kids this opportunity, and when they usually come from a deprived background like the South Wales valleys then it's a no brainer for them.

I will try and find some info on this and post it on here.

So you would rather that deprived families weren't offered that opportunity and thousands of pounds, just in case the young lad is one of the 1 in 50000 kids who might one day be a professional rugby player?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:38 pm

As I wrote before, the guys who have come to Leicester will still play for Wales, so not sure how that fits with international poaching.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:39 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

have they been taken...ie in prison vans with blacked out windows and bars to prevent escape....
...or, did they know where they were going, did their parents know what they were doing, was it an exercise in furthering their own ambitions, wherever those ambitions lay?

Imagine kids wanting to go to top schools, get a top class private education and still get to play rugby, the sheer cheek of not playing at Aberereereefysesaetawtwyth Community College instead!

It's the same thing that you all lambast New Zealand for doing. Double standards. That's what it is.

You'll have to show me where I lambasted New Zealand, I haven't posted anything about it because I know very little about the subject.

Any thoughts on the RFU masterplan I detailed above re Rokoduguni? Do you think that's what happened?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:45 pm

Here you go SecretFly, I will copy and paste this from WOL as I know people do not like me putting their links on here:-

WRU chiefs hit back strongly at England's complaints over Wales poaching 'their' players
Union bosses point to the large number of talented Welsh youngsters being lured across the border

Welsh rugby chiefs have expressed disappointment at the RFU complaining about attempts by Wales to recruit players from England.

The RFU are to ask World Rugby for help in preventing Wales and other countries from targeting players at English club academies.


But the WRU have today questioned these comments.

They point to the large number of talented young Welsh players that are being lured across the border by free scholarships at English fee-paying schools and colleges - with 19 Welsh qualified players currently at one institution.

And they stress the vast majority of players they are targeting in England were actually born in Wales and, in many cases, developed here.

The contentious remarks from the RFU appeared in an article in the Times newspaper. They refer to other countries actively scouting players at English club academies and say they will be taking up the matter with World Rugby.

“I am just disappointed at the comments,” said WRU Head of Rugby Performance Geraint John.

“It could be seen as a little bit ironic that the RFU should be saying this about us. It works both ways.”

John says scouts from English clubs and colleges are regularly watching Welsh regional age-grade teams looking for gifted players.

“We ran a Super Series event at the Arms Park last season, where we had six regional U18s teams - one each from the Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons, North Wales and Exiles,” he said.

“They were squads of 30, so that’s 180 players.

“You looked up in the stand and there were all these scouts from England there.

“They are watching our regional age-grade teams all the time.

“There are also teachers here that are linked with English clubs.”

“For example, there are 19 players at Hartpury who are eligible for Wales,” said John.

“Cardiff Blues lost seven players to them from their programme this year.

“English fee-paying schools and colleges are offering free scholarships to our players.

“When you are offered a £35,000-a year private education for free, it’s hard for kids and their parents to say no and we totally understand that.

“What happens is once players are in the English system, they get picked up by club academies, who often have links with the colleges.

“The RFU might argue it’s the colleges doing the initial recruitment not them, but they support the club academies which have links with the colleges.

“The big concern we have is some lads are being discouraged from playing age-grade rugby for Wales by their clubs.

“We hear about players being put under pressure to not come and play for us on the basis they might not get contracts in future if they do.

“There are examples of players having missed out on going to a Junior World Cup as a result - two players have missed out on playing in this competition and gaining a fantastic experience in the last two years.”

The RFU point to the investment clubs put into players at Academy level and the suggestion is compensation should be paid if Welsh-qualified youngsters are lured away by the WRU.

“They talk about wanting compensation for looking after players from 17 to 21,” he said.

“But what about what we do with them between 7 and 17? What about all the time and effort we put into them in Welsh rugby?

“They have recognised them at age of 16 or 17, but they have been recognised because they came through our club and schools system.

“Perhaps the compensation system should start at 7 not 17.”

John acknowledges the WRU are looking at players in England with a view to bringing them to the regions, but says it’s important to understand the context.

“Just about all of the ones we are targeting are born in Wales,” he said.

“In a lot of cases, they have been picked up by English rugby in their late teens. We just want them back.

“The RFU talk about the money that has been invested by the English system in developing these players, but many have been in our system originally.”

John points to the recent case of a Wales U16s player.

“He’s a Pencoed Comp boy, he’s come through our system,” he said.

“We did everything we could to keep him here.

“We invited him up to the Centre of Excellence when the Lions were there last summer.

“He did a kicking session with Neil Jenkins and Greig Laidlaw.

“But, at the end of the day, he still decided to leave.

“It’s hard for kids to turn down these scholarships.

“Our job is to make sure if they are away we keep monitoring them, supporting them, watching their games, linking with their teachers.

“We want to make sure they realise they are not forgotten, that we want them back, that they mean something to us and that we care, which is so important.”

Among the Welsh-born and raised youngsters currently on English club books are Bristol backs Matt Protheroe and Callum Sheedy, who attended Hartpury and Millfield respectively.

Swansea-born Protheroe, who has recently moved from Gloucester, has represented England at U18s and U20s level.

There’s also the case of scrum-half Harry Randall, who was born in Slough, but grew up in the Amman Valley and captained Wales U16 before switching allegiance to England, playing for their U20s, progressing through Hartpury and the Gloucester Academy.

In all, there are more than 90 Welsh qualified players in the top two flights of English rugby.

Among those playing in the Aviva Premiership are Bridgend-born Bath centre Max Clarke, Leicester's Pembrokeshire back rower Luke Hamilton, Newcastle lock Max Davies, Sale’s Llandudno-born back five forward George Nott, Worcester second row Huw Taylor, London Irish centre Johnny Williams, Gloucester flanker Lewis Ludlow and Cardiff-born Sale No 8 Sam Moore.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:46 pm

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I suggest people go and find out how many young Welsh academy players have been approached, and taken by schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

have they been taken...ie in prison vans with blacked out windows and bars to prevent escape....
...or, did they know where they were going, did their parents know what they were doing, was it an exercise in furthering their own ambitions, wherever those ambitions lay?

It is more of a case that they get offered about 30K and get schooling. When you are offering young kids this opportunity, and when they usually come from a deprived background like the South Wales valleys then it's a no brainer for them.

I will try and find some info on this and post it on here.

So you would rather that deprived families weren't offered that opportunity and thousands of pounds, just in case the young lad is one of the 1 in 50000 kids who might one day be a professional rugby player?


No, I am not saying that.

Stop trying to fabricate an argument.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:47 pm

LondonTiger wrote:As I wrote before, the guys who have come to Leicester will still play for Wales, so not sure how that fits with international poaching.

They will play for Wales, but not for any of the regions. Where they started off.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:50 pm

So what are you saying? That you want the kids to get offered the scholarships and opportunities, but travel back to Wales to play for the regions academies? Doesn't sound very practical for anyone at a school like Oakham or Millfield, hundreds of miles away

Any comment on the RFU's dastardly plan for Rokoduguni?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:52 pm

BamBam wrote:So what are you saying? That you want the kids to get offered the scholarships and opportunities, but travel back to Wales to play for the regions academies? Doesn't sound very practical for anyone at a school like Oakham or Millfield, hundreds of miles away

NO, I am not even suggesting that, again, you are trying to fabricate an argument.


BamBam wrote:Any comment on the RFU's dastardly plan for Rokoduguni?

So you are saying the RFU had no involvement at all ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 1:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:So what are you saying? That you want the kids to get offered the scholarships and opportunities, but travel back to Wales to play for the regions academies? Doesn't sound very practical for anyone at a school like Oakham or Millfield, hundreds of miles away


NO, I am not even suggesting that, again, you are trying to fabricate an argument.

So what are you saying? What would you like to happen with these young kids?

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:Any comment on the RFU's dastardly plan for Rokoduguni?

So you are saying the RFU had no involvement at all ?

I believe they had no involvement until he was selected for the England team. Which bit of the series of events that led to Rokoduguni making his way from Fiji to the England team do you think the RFU had an involvement with?


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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Here you go SecretFly, I will copy and paste this from WOL as I know people do not like me putting their links on here:-

WRU chiefs hit back strongly at England's complaints over Wales poaching 'their' players
Union bosses point to the large number of talented Welsh youngsters being lured across the border

Welsh rugby chiefs have expressed disappointment at the RFU complaining about attempts by Wales to recruit players from England.

The RFU are to ask World Rugby for help in preventing Wales and other countries from targeting players at English club academies.


But the WRU have today questioned these comments.

They point to the large number of talented young Welsh players that are being lured across the border by free scholarships at English fee-paying schools and colleges - with 19 Welsh qualified players currently at one institution.

And they stress the vast majority of players they are targeting in England were actually born in Wales and, in many cases, developed here.

The contentious remarks from the RFU appeared in an article in the Times newspaper. They refer to other countries actively scouting players at English club academies and say they will be taking up the matter with World Rugby.

“I am just disappointed at the comments,” said WRU Head of Rugby Performance Geraint John.

“It could be seen as a little bit ironic that the RFU should be saying this about us. It works both ways.”

John says scouts from English clubs and colleges are regularly watching Welsh regional age-grade teams looking for gifted players.

“We ran a Super Series event at the Arms Park last season, where we had six regional U18s teams - one each from the Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Dragons, North Wales and Exiles,” he said.

“They were squads of 30, so that’s 180 players.

“You looked up in the stand and there were all these scouts from England there.

“They are watching our regional age-grade teams all the time.

“There are also teachers here that are linked with English clubs.”

“For example, there are 19 players at Hartpury who are eligible for Wales,” said John.

“Cardiff Blues lost seven players to them from their programme this year.

“English fee-paying schools and colleges are offering free scholarships to our players.

“When you are offered a £35,000-a year private education for free, it’s hard for kids and their parents to say no and we totally understand that.

“What happens is once players are in the English system, they get picked up by club academies, who often have links with the colleges.

“The RFU might argue it’s the colleges doing the initial recruitment not them, but they support the club academies which have links with the colleges.

“The big concern we have is some lads are being discouraged from playing age-grade rugby for Wales by their clubs.

“We hear about players being put under pressure to not come and play for us on the basis they might not get contracts in future if they do.

“There are examples of players having missed out on going to a Junior World Cup as a result - two players have missed out on playing in this competition and gaining a fantastic experience in the last two years.”

The RFU point to the investment clubs put into players at Academy level and the suggestion is compensation should be paid if Welsh-qualified youngsters are lured away by the WRU.

“They talk about wanting compensation for looking after players from 17 to 21,” he said.

“But what about what we do with them between 7 and 17? What about all the time and effort we put into them in Welsh rugby?

“They have recognised them at age of 16 or 17, but they have been recognised because they came through our club and schools system.

“Perhaps the compensation system should start at 7 not 17.”

John acknowledges the WRU are looking at players in England with a view to bringing them to the regions, but says it’s important to understand the context.

“Just about all of the ones we are targeting are born in Wales,” he said.

“In a lot of cases, they have been picked up by English rugby in their late teens. We just want them back.

“The RFU talk about the money that has been invested by the English system in developing these players, but many have been in our system originally.”

John points to the recent case of a Wales U16s player.

“He’s a Pencoed Comp boy, he’s come through our system,” he said.

“We did everything we could to keep him here.

“We invited him up to the Centre of Excellence when the Lions were there last summer.

“He did a kicking session with Neil Jenkins and Greig Laidlaw.

“But, at the end of the day, he still decided to leave.

“It’s hard for kids to turn down these scholarships.

“Our job is to make sure if they are away we keep monitoring them, supporting them, watching their games, linking with their teachers.

“We want to make sure they realise they are not forgotten, that we want them back, that they mean something to us and that we care, which is so important.”

Among the Welsh-born and raised youngsters currently on English club books are Bristol backs Matt Protheroe and Callum Sheedy, who attended Hartpury and Millfield respectively.

Swansea-born Protheroe, who has recently moved from Gloucester, has represented England at U18s and U20s level.

There’s also the case of scrum-half Harry Randall, who was born in Slough, but grew up in the Amman Valley and captained Wales U16 before switching allegiance to England, playing for their U20s, progressing through Hartpury and the Gloucester Academy.

In all, there are more than 90 Welsh qualified players in the top two flights of English rugby.

Among those playing in the Aviva Premiership are Bridgend-born Bath centre Max Clarke, Leicester's Pembrokeshire back rower Luke Hamilton, Newcastle lock Max Davies, Sale’s Llandudno-born back five forward George Nott, Worcester second row Huw Taylor, London Irish centre Johnny Williams, Gloucester flanker Lewis Ludlow and Cardiff-born Sale No 8 Sam Moore.

I think the English are just trying to get their own back for all the English men playing for Wales.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:04 pm

BamBam wrote:So what are you saying? What would you like to happen with these young kids?

I am not saying anything about what should happen to these kids, I just want people to realise, that when they are pouring scorn all over the NZRU for what they do with the youngsters from the Islands to look at their own house first.

There are more than 90 Welsh players playing in England that have come through the college/school system.

Unlike what profitus has quoted we do not have it the same the other way around.


BamBam wrote:I believe they had no involvement until he was selected for the England team. Which bit of the series of events that led to Rokoduguni making his way from Fiji to the England team do you think the RFU had an involvement with?

I am sure they worked with Bath to get him playing in the English league, if I am wrong about that I will concede.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:06 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I think the English are just trying to get their own back for all the English men playing for Wales.

Who are these "all" as you have quoted ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:So what are you saying? What would you like to happen with these young kids?

I am not saying anything about what should happen to these kids, I just want people to realise, that when they are pouring scorn all over the NZRU for what they do with the youngsters from the Islands to look at their own house first.

There are more than 90 Welsh players playing in England that have come through the college/school system.

Unlike what profitus has quoted we do not have it the same the other way around.


BamBam wrote:I believe they had no involvement until he was selected for the England team. Which bit of the series of events that led to Rokoduguni making his way from Fiji to the England team do you think the RFU had an involvement with?

I am sure they worked with Bath to get him playing in the English league, if I am wrong about that I will concede.

Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:09 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I think the English are just trying to get their own back for all the English men playing for Wales.

Who are these "all" as you have quoted ?

Anyone not called Jones, Williams or Evans presumably. 25% of the Wales squad according to two cent rugby.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

That's very dramatic. I have only really suggested its no different as to what goes on in the NH in terms of capping players based on residency.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:12 pm

I haven't poured any scorn on anyone, I avoided the whole debate as I can't say I have the knowledge.

If the young lads want to play for Welsh regions and Wales, they are completely free to do so. The best example I can think of is Adam Hastings - obviously a very famous surname in Scottish rugby, he went to Millfield school, and was part of the Bath rugby academy, I'm pretty sure he appeared for their first team a few times too.

When he was offered an opportunity by Glasgow, he left and is now their starting fly half and starting for Scotland.

The fact he went to an English school and was part of an English club's academy did not prevent this

As for Roko, the only statement publicly made about how he began playing rugby is that Gary Gold called him up (Roko didn't believe him and hung up!) then a trial came about and he ended up in Bath colours

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Re: November tests general

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:As I wrote before, the guys who have come to Leicester will still play for Wales, so not sure how that fits with international poaching.

They will play for Wales, but not for any of the regions. Where they started off.


They will if/once they start playing for Wales (assuming current rules apply). Not really as if huge amounts have been invested in guys who leave at 15/16 and it frees up a junior academy place for another player. 

Looking at Hartpury - the vast majority of those guys moving are unlikely to make much of a career in rugby, but will have had a decent education to set them up for the rest of their life.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:15 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I think the English are just trying to get their own back for all the English men playing for Wales.

Who are these "all" as you have quoted ?

Anyone not called Jones, Williams or Evans presumably. 25% of the Wales squad according to two cent rugby.

care to name them ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

That's very dramatic. I have only really suggested its no different as to what goes on in the NH in terms of capping players based on residency.

Nope, on another thread, that got locked because of you, you were very vociferous about this.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:16 pm

Its also completely up to the individual player. Cam Redpath, son of Bryan - another very famous Scottish rugby name. He was schooled in England at Sedbergh, has come through the Sale academy, England age group sides and before his bad injury was likely to make his full England debut

Nothing stopping any Welsh lad taking the approach of either Hastings or Redpath

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:19 pm

How is it in this day and age New Zealand are able to get away with having an ethnic side. Is it not a bit dodgy having a NZ Maori side where you have to be a specific ethnicity to play?

I think there might be a bit of a stink kicked up if the IRFU revealed plans to set up an Irish travellers side.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:They will if/once they start playing for Wales (assuming current rules apply). Not really as if huge amounts have been invested in guys who leave at 15/16 and it frees up a junior academy place for another player.

Ah, cheers for that, thanks for making opportunities for others. Rolling Eyes

LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Hartpury - the vast majority of those guys moving are unlikely to make much of a career in rugby, but will have had a decent education to set them up for the rest of their life.

They are still lost to the academies, and clubs that have put a lot of resources into them.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:21 pm

BamBam wrote:Its also completely up to the individual player. Cam Redpath, son of Bryan - another very famous Scottish rugby name. He was schooled in England at Sedbergh, has come through the Sale academy, England age group sides and before his bad injury was likely to make his full England debut

Nothing stopping any Welsh lad taking the approach of either Hastings or Redpath

I agree.

But lets not pretend it does not happen when we moan about New Zealand capping a Samoan who has gone through the exact same system. OK

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Re: November tests general

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:21 pm

No ld. You're wrong that the rfu recruit or identify players to recruit for clubs. They're completely separate and the main complaint is that they fail to work together!

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:Its also completely up to the individual player. Cam Redpath, son of Bryan - another very famous Scottish rugby name. He was schooled in England at Sedbergh, has come through the Sale academy, England age group sides and before his bad injury was likely to make his full England debut

Nothing stopping any Welsh lad taking the approach of either Hastings or Redpath

I agree.

But lets not pretend it does not happen when we moan about New Zealand capping a Samoan who has gone through the exact same system. OK

Once again - show me where I have moaned about anyone that New Zealand has capped

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 2:29 pm

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:Its also completely up to the individual player. Cam Redpath, son of Bryan - another very famous Scottish rugby name. He was schooled in England at Sedbergh, has come through the Sale academy, England age group sides and before his bad injury was likely to make his full England debut

Nothing stopping any Welsh lad taking the approach of either Hastings or Redpath

I agree.

But lets not pretend it does not happen when we moan about New Zealand capping a Samoan who has gone through the exact same system. OK

Once again - show me where I have moaned about anyone that New Zealand has capped

Not you in particular, that is why I have said WE. As in the royal we.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 4:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

That's very dramatic. I have only really suggested its no different as to what goes on in the NH in terms of capping players based on residency.

Exactly, so theres an even playing field on that, though its looking like its far more prevalent in the north, but you ar3 also bringing in hundreds of hired pros to the uk. We...are not.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 4:43 pm

Taylorman wrote:Exactly, so theres an even playing field on that, though its looking like its far more prevalent in the north, but you ar3 also bringing in hundreds of hired pros to the uk. We...are not.

I think you'll now find that members like collapse and 7 & 1/2, and others of their ilk, will strangely now lose their wi-fi signal when it comes to this subject, now that I have provided sufficient evidence that their nations are not squeaky clean when it comes to poaching.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 4:46 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

That's very dramatic. I have only really suggested its no different as to what goes on in the NH in terms of capping players based on residency.

Exactly, so theres an even playing field on that, though its looking like its far more prevalent in the north, but you ar3 also bringing in hundreds of hired pros to the uk. We...are not.

It makes no difference to me if the residency based players are hired pros or amateur schoolboys. Same outcome. Most of the extra players in the NH are accounted for by players who basically are of for example Irish heritage who were born elsewhere such as Jordi Murphy born in Spain etc. which is not unexpected when there has in the past been a lot of emigration from Ireland and there is also free movement around the EU. Ireland and NZ have roughly the same amount of residency qualified players in their squads.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 4:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Exactly, so theres an even playing field on that, though its looking like its far more prevalent in the north, but you ar3 also bringing in hundreds of hired pros to the uk. We...are not.

I think you'll now find that members like collapse and 7 & 1/2, and others of their ilk, will strangely now lose their wi-fi signal when it comes to this subject, now that I have provided sufficient evidence that their nations are not squeaky clean when it comes to poaching.

Haha you sound like you are about to cry or something.

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Re: November tests general

Post by tigertattie on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 4:53 pm

BamBam wrote:I haven't poured any scorn on anyone, I avoided the whole debate as I can't say I have the knowledge.

If the young lads want to play for Welsh regions and Wales, they are completely free to do so. The best example I can think of is Adam Hastings - obviously a very famous surname in Scottish rugby, he went to Millfield school, and was part of the Bath rugby academy, I'm pretty sure he appeared for their first team a few times too.

When he was offered an opportunity by Glasgow, he left and is now their starting fly half and starting for Scotland.

The fact he went to an English school and was part of an English club's academy did not prevent this

As for Roko, the only statement publicly made about how he began playing rugby is that Gary Gold called him up (Roko didn't believe him and hung up!) then a trial came about and he ended up in Bath colours

Hardly apt to use Hastings as an example here as he was born and brought up in Edinburgh (wining two school cups with Watsons - An Edinburgh private School) before moving to Millfield School for a spell. With his Dad being who he is, I'm pretty sure if you asked Adam at any point who he'd want to play for, he'd always say Scotland. Now, if England came knocking a few years ago and offered him a place in their set up, would he have taken it, probably as its a professional sport now, but to say he is purely a product of the English Academy system who has turned his back on them to come to scotland is a bt far fetched!
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