November tests general

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November tests general

Post by profitius on Mon 22 Oct 2018, 3:52 pm

First topic message reminder :


The list is below. Any predictions as to what might happen?
https://www.autumn-internationals.co.uk/2018/


WEEK 1
Saturday 3rd November 2018

-Japan v New Zealand
Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo
Kick off: 5:45am

-Wales v Scotland
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:45pm

-England v South Africa
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Ireland v Italy
Soldier Field, Chicago
Kick off: 8:00pm



WEEK 2
Saturday 10th November 2018

-Italy v Georgia
Stadio Artemio Franchi, Florence
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Fiji
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v New Zealand
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v Australia
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v Argentina
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v South Africa
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 3
Saturday 17th November 2018

-Italy v Australia
Stadio Euganeo, Padua
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Wales v Tonga
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Japan
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Scotland v South Africa
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v New Zealand
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 7:00pm

-France v Argentina
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 4
Saturday 24th November 2018

-Italy v New Zealand
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Argentina
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Australia
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v South Africa
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v USA
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v Fiji
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 5
Saturday 1st December 2018

-Barbarians v Argentina
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 2:30pm
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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 5:01 pm

How many of these Welsh players enticed to England for schooling end up playing for England? What’s the figure? Name some names for me someone. I can’t think of any.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 5:36 pm

tigertattie wrote:
BamBam wrote:I haven't poured any scorn on anyone, I avoided the whole debate as I can't say I have the knowledge.

If the young lads want to play for Welsh regions and Wales, they are completely free to do so. The best example I can think of is Adam Hastings - obviously a very famous surname in Scottish rugby, he went to Millfield school, and was part of the Bath rugby academy, I'm pretty sure he appeared for their first team a few times too.

When he was offered an opportunity by Glasgow, he left and is now their starting fly half and starting for Scotland.

The fact he went to an English school and was part of an English club's academy did not prevent this

As for Roko, the only statement publicly made about how he began playing rugby is that Gary Gold called him up (Roko didn't believe him and hung up!) then a trial came about and he ended up in Bath colours

Hardly apt to use Hastings as an example here as he was born and brought up in Edinburgh (wining two school cups with Watsons - An Edinburgh private School) before moving to Millfield School for a spell. With his Dad being who he is, I'm pretty sure if you asked Adam at any point who he'd want to play for, he'd always say Scotland. Now, if England came knocking a few years ago and offered him a place in their set up, would he have taken it, probably as its a professional sport now, but to say he is purely a product of the English Academy system who has turned his back on them to come to scotland is a bt far fetched!

I was holding Hastings up as an example of someone who still ended up playing for Scotland (or Wales) regardless of going through the English schooling and academy system, definitely wasn't trying to imply that he's turned his back on England. I was trying to show LD that not every kid who comes to English schools is then lost to his "home" country forever!

Then I gave Cam Redpath as an example of someone who you might have expected to want to play for Scotland, but clearly his preference is not to

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Re: November tests general

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 5:39 pm

Again ld you seem to want to have a discussion but not exactly sure as to your overall point or why you keep mentioning me. I've corrected your point that the rfu don't dictate anything to the clubs. If your wider point is that clubs employ players.....well yeah dur.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:00 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

That's very dramatic. I have only really suggested its no different as to what goes on in the NH in terms of capping players based on residency.

Exactly, so theres an even playing field on that, though its looking like its far more prevalent in the north, but you ar3 also bringing in hundreds of hired pros to the uk. We...are not.

It makes no difference to me if the residency based players are hired pros or amateur schoolboys. Same outcome. Most of the extra players in the NH are accounted for by players who basically are of for example Irish heritage who were born elsewhere such as Jordi Murphy born in Spain etc. which is not unexpected when there has in the past been a lot of emigration from Ireland and there is also free movement around the EU. Ireland and NZ have roughly the same amount of residency qualified players in their squads.

Wrong. We trained them and turned them into pros. Our OWN players Im talking about. Not overseas players. Our own born bred and trained professional Super rugby and All Blacks. Far bigger numbers of those, hundreds in the last decade. We import nothing like that. This argument is done. You clearly have a problem admitting it.

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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:01 pm

The Welsh school boy thing is the whole reason the ‘Welsh Exiles’ programme was set up. It wasn’t to scour the world for welsh qualified players. It was to maintain links and contact with players who might have left. To let them know they weren’t forgotten about. Which is why, if memory serves, it was based in England somewhere (or at least Paul Turner was when he headed it up).
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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:29 pm

Just to add, I’ve got nothing against the players leaving OR the schools in England offering the Welsh players scholarships. It’s more an indictment of the poorer standard of schools in Wales. It’s not like it’s English clubs enticing them over. To go for educational reasons is absolutely the right thing to do. And I really do not think the schools entice Welsh lads with a view to them playing for England one day. The schools want good sports teams as that increases their Kudos and selling point and the fees they can charge, so they will offer good sports people (all sports, not just rugby) from around the country an excellent educational opportunity to study with them and play sport for them and to make the school great. For Wales, the challenge is to a) make our education system better (not easy and not the job of the WRU), b) maintain contact with these players (hence Welsh Exiles), and c) make sure there’s opportunity and aspiration to come back to Wales it they go on to become pro rugby players by having strong regions fighting for silverware and offering good salaries and conditions in comparison to what is available in England. But you can’t stop or discourage people from moving for educational reasons. And you can’t blame English clubs for doing it as they’re not the ones making the approach (in this example).
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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:32 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

That's very dramatic. I have only really suggested its no different as to what goes on in the NH in terms of capping players based on residency.

Exactly, so theres an even playing field on that, though its looking like its far more prevalent in the north, but you ar3 also bringing in hundreds of hired pros to the uk. We...are not.

It makes no difference to me if the residency based players are hired pros or amateur schoolboys. Same outcome. Most of the extra players in the NH are accounted for by players who basically are of for example Irish heritage who were born elsewhere such as Jordi Murphy born in Spain etc. which is not unexpected when there has in the past been a lot of emigration from Ireland and there is also free movement around the EU. Ireland and NZ have roughly the same amount of residency qualified players in their squads.

Wrong. We trained them and turned them into pros. Our OWN players Im talking about. Not overseas players. Our own born bred and trained professional Super rugby and All Blacks. Far bigger numbers of those, hundreds in the last decade. We import nothing like that. This argument is done. You clearly have a problem admitting it.

That's because none of the usual places that NZ get their players from have established pros nor professional leagues so NZ takes them when they are still schoolboys. I see very little difference in this practice. Its still residency based qualification for economic reasons. Frizzell was already in a Tongan representative side he just was yet a pro because there are no opportunities in Tonga to be a pro.

There are very few places around the world that a. play rugby b. have a lower GDP per capita than NZ and c. have strong professional leagues. If there was I'm sure NZ would be an attractive place for them to go to.

No different to an established pro moving for economic reasons.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:35 pm

Good post Oracle

Put it another way - if I'm a scout for Bath, and I go to watch a game where two schools in the Bath catchment area are playing, I see 2 players for the first time that seem real talents and are potentially good enough to come along to Bath training.

I go to speak to the rugby coach, and he tells me that one of the kids is called John Smith and the other is called Simon Williams - at that point, am I supposed to think "hey, wait a minute, this kid might be Welsh, I shouldn't offer him a trial for the Bath academy"?


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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:44 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Hardly surprising when its just down the road and you all hold the same passport. Freedom to live work and study wherever you want in the UK. Whats the issue?

No issue, have I suggested I have an issue ?

It is you who has the issue with this, because you rip the New Zealand members on here apart for doing it with the Samoans/Tongans/Fijians.

That's very dramatic. I have only really suggested its no different as to what goes on in the NH in terms of capping players based on residency.

Exactly, so theres an even playing field on that, though its looking like its far more prevalent in the north, but you ar3 also bringing in hundreds of hired pros to the uk. We...are not.

It makes no difference to me if the residency based players are hired pros or amateur schoolboys. Same outcome. Most of the extra players in the NH are accounted for by players who basically are of for example Irish heritage who were born elsewhere such as Jordi Murphy born in Spain etc. which is not unexpected when there has in the past been a lot of emigration from Ireland and there is also free movement around the EU. Ireland and NZ have roughly the same amount of residency qualified players in their squads.

Wrong. We trained them and turned them into pros. Our OWN players Im talking about. Not overseas players. Our own born bred and trained professional Super rugby and All Blacks. Far bigger numbers of those, hundreds in the last decade. We import nothing like that. This argument is done. You clearly have a problem admitting it.

That's because none of the usual places that NZ get their players from have established pros nor professional leagues so NZ takes them when they are still schoolboys. I see very little difference in this practice. Its still residency based qualification for economic reasons. Frizzell was already in a Tongan representative side he just was yet a pro because there are no opportunities in Tonga to be a pro.

There are very few places around the world that a. play rugby b. have a lower GDP per capita than NZ and c. have strong professional leagues. If there was I'm sure NZ would be an attractive place for them to go to.

No different to an established pro moving for economic reasons.

Ok, whatever dumb thinking makes you happy. Tumbleweed

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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 6:56 pm

BamBam wrote:Good post Oracle

Put it another way - if I'm a scout for Bath, and I go to watch a game where two schools in the Bath catchment area are playing, I see 2 players for the first time that seem real talents and are potentially good enough to come along to Bath training.

I go to speak to the rugby coach, and he tells me that one of the kids is called John Smith and the other is called Simon Williams - at that point, am I supposed to think "hey, wait a minute, this kid might be Welsh, I shouldn't offer him a trial for the Bath academy"?


Exactly. The clubs scouting other clubs for established adult players is far different from clubs scouting schools in their own area, or schools scouting players at others schools. When clubs in England start scouting welsh schools and start paying players’ school fees in order to get them over the bridge and into the England team long term, THEN it will be an issue! But it’s just not happening currently.
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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 7:03 pm

The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:Good post Oracle

Put it another way - if I'm a scout for Bath, and I go to watch a game where two schools in the Bath catchment area are playing, I see 2 players for the first time that seem real talents and are potentially good enough to come along to Bath training.

I go to speak to the rugby coach, and he tells me that one of the kids is called John Smith and the other is called Simon Williams - at that point, am I supposed to think "hey, wait a minute, this kid might be Welsh, I shouldn't offer him a trial for the Bath academy"?


Exactly. The clubs scouting other clubs for established adult players is far different from clubs scouting schools in their own area, or schools scouting players at others schools. When clubs in England start scouting welsh schools and start paying players’ school fees in order to get them over the bridge and into the England team long term, THEN it will be an issue! But it’s just not happening currently.

Ive no issue with that. Its this scenario im concerned about.

Im a scout for Bath, I turn on Sky or whatever floats over there and see a young Hurricanes winger score three times against the Crusaders. I do some googling and note hes not yet selected for the All Blacks. I do a little more checkingvand gind his grandmother was born in England.

I shouldnt offer him a millions pounds to play for Bath and at the same time get in Eddie Jones good books for ‘discovering’ this new English talent and become a hero at the same time?

No?

Because thats exactly whats been happening. And multiply that by 10 when its only for club and not country.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 7:06 pm

Change the rules then. Just because the top pros don't want to go to New Zealand and earn peanuts you cant blame the Kiwis for wanting a pop at the title up north.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 7:21 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Change the rules then. Just because the top pros don't want to go to New Zealand and earn peanuts you cant blame the Kiwis for wanting a pop at the title up north.

Yes thats an option. My issue was those in denial that it happens. Our players can do what they want.
Its the ease at which you accept your clubs need to shop wholesale in the south that I find shallow.

We might pick up the odd schoolboy on scholarship but we would never spend serious money on already established pros in the manner the north do. It reflects the fallacy that northern rugby is stronger than it really is.

And if its about the number of teams you clearly have too many if that number of players need to be bought in.

More ABs are currently playing in the north than we have in our 51 man squad.

Thats insane in terms of developing your own players.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 7:22 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Change the rules then. Just because the top pros don't want to go to New Zealand and earn peanuts you cant blame the Kiwis for wanting a pop at the title up north.

Yes thats an option. My issue was those in denial that it happens. Our players can do what they want.
Its the ease at which you accept your clubs need to shop wholesale in the south that I find shallow.

We might pick up the odd schoolboy on scholarship but we would never spend serious money on already established pros in the manner the north do. It reflects the fallacy that northern rugby is stronger than it really is.

And if its about the number of teams you clearly have too many if that number of players need to be bought in.

More ABs are currently playing in the north than we have in our 51 man squad.

Thats insane in terms of developing your own players.

Well NZ rugby finds it pretty easy to pluck up and coming Tongan schoolboys fresh off the boat so I have fairly limited sympathy for you.

England has the same numbers of players representing other countries as NZ so it probably has a lot to do with player numbers, supply and demand etc. You should probably be grateful that NZ rugby creates such large volumes of players.

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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 7:26 pm

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:Good post Oracle

Put it another way - if I'm a scout for Bath, and I go to watch a game where two schools in the Bath catchment area are playing, I see 2 players for the first time that seem real talents and are potentially good enough to come along to Bath training.

I go to speak to the rugby coach, and he tells me that one of the kids is called John Smith and the other is called Simon Williams - at that point, am I supposed to think "hey, wait a minute, this kid might be Welsh, I shouldn't offer him a trial for the Bath academy"?


Exactly. The clubs scouting other clubs for established adult players is far different from clubs scouting schools in their own area, or schools scouting players at others schools. When clubs in England start scouting welsh schools and start paying players’ school fees in order to get them over the bridge and into the England team long term, THEN it will be an issue! But it’s just not happening currently.

Ive no issue with that. Its this scenario im concerned about.

Im a scout for Bath, I turn on Sky or whatever floats over there and see a young Hurricanes winger score three times against the Crusaders. I do some googling and note hes not yet selected for the All Blacks. I do a little more checkingvand gind his grandmother was born in England.

I shouldnt offer him a millions pounds to play for Bath and at the same time get in Eddie Jones good books for ‘discovering’ this new English talent and become a hero at the same time?

No?

Because thats exactly whats been happening. And multiply that by 10 when its only for club and not country.

Yeah, but that’s what you get with professionalism. It’s sh*t but it’s work. As soon as the game went pro people need to stop looking at it as sport and look at it as employment. If you’re a company in Bath and the best account manager was at a firm in Otago you’re not gong to ignore him if your job is to recruit the best workforce. I think that’s the defining thing - established professional people. I see no difference between lawyers, surveyors, doctors or rugby players in that respect. The real sh*t thing that differentiates rugby to other professions is that they’re then lost from the original national team (in some instances) which isn’t a feature of other professions, and is the thing that really gets your goat I think. And that’s understandable. Not sure what the answer is though - longer residency period? Make U20s caps tie them down? Only allow players to play for their country of birth? No parent/grandparent rule allowed? Stop countries from excluding overseas players (like NZ do)? All might work. But ‘work’/employment is the driver here.

The scenario you point out is pretty rare in my opinion (I.e. players scouted directly for an international team). In England, France and Wales the clubs largely do what they like. They are not looking to the international team. In fact, in those counties the clubs are often at war with their unions over one thing or another. It might seem foreign to you but clubs are not an extension of the union in those countries. So more often than not a player is signed from abroad because a club coach likes them and thinks they’ll do a job that’s needed, and then international selection is a happy knock on effect or bonus for the country if they end up being any good. But the vast majority of the time they are not signed because they might be able to play for the national team. Sometimes, yes. But much more rarely.
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Re: November tests general

Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 8:15 pm

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:Good post Oracle

Put it another way - if I'm a scout for Bath, and I go to watch a game where two schools in the Bath catchment area are playing, I see 2 players for the first time that seem real talents and are potentially good enough to come along to Bath training.

I go to speak to the rugby coach, and he tells me that one of the kids is called John Smith and the other is called Simon Williams - at that point, am I supposed to think "hey, wait a minute, this kid might be Welsh, I shouldn't offer him a trial for the Bath academy"?


Exactly. The clubs scouting other clubs for established adult players is far different from clubs scouting schools in their own area, or schools scouting players at others schools. When clubs in England start scouting welsh schools and start paying players’ school fees in order to get them over the bridge and into the England team long term, THEN it will be an issue! But it’s just not happening currently.

Ive no issue with that. Its this scenario im concerned about.

Im a scout for Bath, I turn on Sky or whatever floats over there and see a young Hurricanes winger score three times against the Crusaders. I do some googling and note hes not yet selected for the All Blacks. I do a little more checkingvand gind his grandmother was born in England.

I shouldnt offer him a millions pounds to play for Bath and at the same time get in Eddie Jones good books for ‘discovering’ this new English talent and become a hero at the same time?

No?

Because thats exactly whats been happening. And multiply that by 10 when its only for club and not country.
You clearly know nothing about the English set up if you think a club would spend a single penny to "get in Eddie Jones' good books."

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Re: November tests general

Post by tigertattie on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 8:15 pm

BamBam wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
BamBam wrote:I haven't poured any scorn on anyone, I avoided the whole debate as I can't say I have the knowledge.

If the young lads want to play for Welsh regions and Wales, they are completely free to do so. The best example I can think of is Adam Hastings - obviously a very famous surname in Scottish rugby, he went to Millfield school, and was part of the Bath rugby academy, I'm pretty sure he appeared for their first team a few times too.

When he was offered an opportunity by Glasgow, he left and is now their starting fly half and starting for Scotland.

The fact he went to an English school and was part of an English club's academy did not prevent this

As for Roko, the only statement publicly made about how he began playing rugby is that Gary Gold called him up (Roko didn't believe him and hung up!) then a trial came about and he ended up in Bath colours

Hardly apt to use Hastings as an example here as he was born and brought up in Edinburgh (wining two school cups with Watsons - An Edinburgh private School) before moving to Millfield School for a spell. With his Dad being who he is, I'm pretty sure if you asked Adam at any point who he'd want to play for, he'd always say Scotland. Now, if England came knocking a few years ago and offered him a place in their set up, would he have taken it, probably as its a professional sport now, but to say he is purely a product of the English Academy system who has turned his back on them to come to scotland is a bt far fetched!

I was holding Hastings up as an example of someone who still ended up playing for Scotland (or Wales) regardless of going through the English schooling and academy system, definitely wasn't trying to imply that he's turned his back on England. I was trying to show LD that not every kid who comes to English schools is then lost to his "home" country forever!

Then I gave Cam Redpath as an example of someone who you might have expected to want to play for Scotland, but clearly his preference is not to

Fair play sir. Fair play

It’s a difficult one as it’s an issue that cuts to identity and therefore national bias.

There’s not a single union out there that isn’t trying to maximise their player pool by taking advantage of the current rules. Italy have “stolen” plenty Ozziea. NZ have “Poached” plenty Pacific Islanders.

I’m not sure of the history of blade Thomson but I believe he was given a scarlets contract with a view to getting residency for Wales but now he’s rocked up for Scotland due to grandparentage. If that’s true, the WRU must be spitting feathers. I could very well be wrong though.

I’m pretty sure there will be plenty more moans about this as time goes on
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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 8:26 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:Good post Oracle

Put it another way - if I'm a scout for Bath, and I go to watch a game where two schools in the Bath catchment area are playing, I see 2 players for the first time that seem real talents and are potentially good enough to come along to Bath training.

I go to speak to the rugby coach, and he tells me that one of the kids is called John Smith and the other is called Simon Williams - at that point, am I supposed to think "hey, wait a minute, this kid might be Welsh, I shouldn't offer him a trial for the Bath academy"?


Exactly. The clubs scouting other clubs for established adult players is far different from clubs scouting schools in their own area, or schools scouting players at others schools. When clubs in England start scouting welsh schools and start paying players’ school fees in order to get them over the bridge and into the England team long term, THEN it will be an issue! But it’s just not happening currently.

Ive no issue with that. Its this scenario im concerned about.

Im a scout for Bath, I turn on Sky or whatever floats over there and see a young Hurricanes winger score three times against the Crusaders. I do some googling and note hes not yet selected for the All Blacks. I do a little more checkingvand gind his grandmother was born in England.

I shouldnt offer him a millions pounds to play for Bath and at the same time get in Eddie Jones good books for ‘discovering’ this new English talent and become a hero at the same time?

No?

Because thats exactly whats been happening. And multiply that by 10 when its only for club and not country.
You clearly know nothing about the English set up if you think a club would spend a single penny to "get in Eddie Jones' good books."

You know I'm sensing a common 'miss the bigger picture to focus on an infantile minor throwaway anomaly' in some of these discussions...oops another one.

Anyway, its been thrashed, you dont get it so I wont bother, there are games to be played, hopefully thrashings to be given Hug

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Re: November tests general

Post by Poorfour on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 10:03 pm

Taylorman, the point people are trying to make about your scenario is that a scout for Bath's incentives are, as my daughter would put it "exactly the different" from what you have posted.

In recruiting a foreign-based player, it's actually more in a club's interest to recruit players who aren't EQP, because it means they won't be missing for long periods of the year.

Of course, it's very possible that the player might be interested in playing for England and that that is an incentive for them to move.

But the club's would often rather they didn't. They don't really gain anything by providing England players - although having a reputation for being good at furthering players' international ambitions is helpful in recruiting other players.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 10:36 pm

Poorfour wrote:Taylorman, the point people are trying to make about your scenario is that a scout for Bath's incentives are, as my daughter would put it "exactly the different" from what you have posted.

In recruiting a foreign-based player, it's actually more in a club's interest to recruit players who aren't EQP, because it means they won't be missing for long periods of the year.

Of course, it's very possible that the player might be interested in playing for England  and that that is an incentive for them to move.

But the club's would often rather they didn't. They don't really gain anything by providing England players - although having a reputation for being good at furthering players' international ambitions is helpful in recruiting other players.

Understandable, my point is simply the fact that the 'leave' for both reasons. To us as fans it makes no difference whether theyre test ready elsewhere or not, so the distinction our end is redundant. Theyre gone, they're gone, where or why is irrelevant to us as fans.

If Sexton, Murray, Farrell etc all left to play for the Queensland Reds- oz or not qualified, their fans wouldn't care why, they're gone, and need to be replaced, internally from our perspective. We can't pick up the phone and dial an overseas number to replace them either.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Cyril on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 11:09 pm

Taylorman, you need to write to World Rugby if it’s Unions that are the problem. Otherwise it’s professionalism and then you’re dealing with business and finances. World Rugby could have some sway if they changed residency or parentage rules. Unions like NZ could also relax their standing on non-NZ based players too. Ultimately players, unions and clubs want to maximise their earnings. Shame there’s no fans from tier 2 Nations on here as they’re the ones that are really hit.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Taylorman on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 11:30 pm

Cyril wrote:Taylorman, you need to write to World Rugby if it’s Unions that are the problem. Otherwise it’s professionalism and then you’re dealing with business and finances. World Rugby could have some sway if they changed residency or parentage rules. Unions like NZ could also relax their standing on non-NZ based players too. Ultimately players, unions and clubs want to maximise their earnings. Shame there’s no fans from tier 2 Nations on here as they’re the ones that are really hit.

Don't think we are far from applying the Giteau 60 test type rule and some tier two sides also do very well.

Many of the Island teams are NZ born, bred and trained pros so that is the number one reason sides like Samoa and Tonga especially are competitive. not ideal for them but they certainly punch above their weight internationally.
I think the gravy train will cease as soon as theres an economic fallout, until then the north seem to be milking it for all its worth, obviously to varying degrees across them all.

If it provides higher average incomes for kiwis who are we to complain and I get its professionalism, and some of us oldies are idealists and are I guess glad to have seen the days when playing for club and country were everything. Our super rugby sides are still largely home grown so thats still very strong and hopefully I dont see the day when the Blues are scattered with Argies, SA's Ozzies and Northerners where we have no idea what the baseline for our own game is any more.

Anyway, its a complex issue, and I know now a boring one, so we move on to the weekend... thumbsup

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Re: November tests general

Post by Cyril on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 12:08 am

Indeed! Bring on the Tests this weekend. I’m travelling to see my parents, but have engineered time to catch a certain game at 3pm Smile

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 8:00 am

Just to make things clear, I also do not have a problem with what the English Schools and colleges are doing, despite what others on here would try and make you believe.

I am just pointing out, that it is not just the NZRU who are doing it.

Also, most of the Welsh players in England would more than likely want to play for Wales anyway, but they are lost to the Welsh regions, and in some cases, they are lost to the Welsh international age grade setup, these kids have had a lot of money, time and resources spent on them as young kids, the clubs, academies, and regions do not get anything back for that.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 8:02 am

The Oracle wrote: When clubs in England start scouting welsh schools and start paying players’ school fees in order to get them over the bridge and into the England team long term, THEN it will be an issue! But it’s just not happening currently.

Are you for real ?

They may not end up playing for England, but they are being encouraged not to play for the Wales age grade, especially the U20's as they would get tied to Wales.

Read the article I put up, it is in there.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 8:23 am

Poorfour wrote:In recruiting a foreign-based player, it's actually more in a club's interest to recruit players who aren't EQP, because it means they won't be missing for long periods of the year.

What about players who are encouraged not to tie themselves to a union because the clubs could get more money of the RFU ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 8:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote: When clubs in England start scouting welsh schools and start paying players’ school fees in order to get them over the bridge and into the England team long term, THEN it will be an issue! But it’s just not happening currently.

Are you for real ?

They may not end up playing for England, but they are being encouraged not to play for the Wales age grade, especially the U20's as they would get tied to Wales.

Read the article I put up, it is in there.


List all of the Welsh players who have gone on to play for England then. And then try arguing that it’s anything like what happens in New Zealand.
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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 8:56 am

Cyril wrote:Indeed! Bring on the Tests this weekend. I’m travelling to see my parents, but have engineered time to catch a certain game at 3pm Smile

Will you be on the sauce again Cyril?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:04 am

The Oracle wrote:List all of the Welsh players who have gone on to play for England then. And then try arguing that it’s anything like what happens in New Zealand.

The only difference in most cases is that the player usually ends up representing the All Blacks down there if they are good enough.

What about the ones, that New Zealand have spend a lot of resources on, who go on to represent Tonga/Samoa/Fiji ?

In my opinion, those Island nations would be a lot worse off if it were not for New Zealand.

In our case, the players who go to England at a young age, more often than not, do not end up representing the U20's at World cups and 6N's. Whilst I have no issues with this, it does hamper the Welsh setup.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:08 am

You have totally bought into the AB pr machine anyway Lord.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:10 am

Collapse2005 wrote:You have totally bought into the AB pr machine anyway Lord.

No I haven't.

It's just that I am not a hypocrite. The home nations do far more damage to other countries resources by taking players from other countries, than any other nation.

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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:17 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:List all of the Welsh players who have gone on to play for England then. And then try arguing that it’s anything like what happens in New Zealand.

The only difference in most cases is that the player usually ends up representing the All Blacks down there if they are good enough.

What about the ones, that New Zealand have spend a lot of resources on, who go on to represent Tonga/Samoa/Fiji ?

In my opinion, those Island nations would be a lot worse off if it were not for New Zealand.

In our case, the players who go to England at a young age, more often than not, do not end up representing the U20's at World cups and 6N's. Whilst I have no issues with this, it does hamper the Welsh setup.

I disagree.  They do not get capped by England so are available to the Wales national team.  The only thing that then hampers the Welsh set up is any new rules that the WRU bring in such as Gatland's law or the 60 cap rule, but they are fairly recent things.
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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:You have totally bought into the AB pr machine anyway Lord.

No I haven't.

It's just that I am not a hypocrite. The home nations do far more damage to other countries resources by taking players from other countries, than any other nation.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Re: November tests general

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:27 am

I think it's more to do with having personal gripes or his hypocrisy accusation would be directed towards biltong rather than myself.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:32 am

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:List all of the Welsh players who have gone on to play for England then. And then try arguing that it’s anything like what happens in New Zealand.

The only difference in most cases is that the player usually ends up representing the All Blacks down there if they are good enough.

What about the ones, that New Zealand have spend a lot of resources on, who go on to represent Tonga/Samoa/Fiji ?

In my opinion, those Island nations would be a lot worse off if it were not for New Zealand.

In our case, the players who go to England at a young age, more often than not, do not end up representing the U20's at World cups and 6N's. Whilst I have no issues with this, it does hamper the Welsh setup.

I disagree.  They do not get capped by England so are available to the Wales national team.  The only thing that then hampers the Welsh set up is any new rules that the WRU bring in such as Gatland's law or the 60 cap rule, but they are fairly recent things.

How can it not hamper the Welsh set-up when they are not available for the U20's ?

Are the U20's now not a part of the Welsh set-up ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it's more to do with having personal gripes or his hypocrisy accusation would be directed towards biltong rather than myself.

You now you cannot debate when you accuse people of being personal. Rolling Eyes

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:33 am

Lord conveniently ignores the fact that NZ have the same amount of residency qualified players than Ireland and Australia have more foreign born players than most of the six nations sides including Ireland. Basically has totally fallen for the Kiwi PR machine.

Argentina and SA cant attract overseas born players because they either don't have a domestic league or their economy is shot or both not in my view because they wouldn't do it.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:36 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Lord conveniently ignores the fact that NZ have the same amount of residency qualified players than Ireland and Australia have more foreign born players than most of the six nations sides including Ireland. Basically has totally fallen for the Kiwi PR machine.

Nope, it's you, who seems to have a very unnatural hatred for anything to do with New Zealand rugby. You cannot even start to be impartial over anything to do with the NZRU.

You can tell by the way you argue with the New Zealand members on here all the time.

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:39 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Argentina and SA cant attract overseas born players because they either don't have a domestic league or their economy is shot or both not in my view because they wouldn't do it.

What do you mean by overseas ?

Because Argentina have plenty of Uruguayans in there leagues and South Africa have lots of Namibians and Zimbabweans in their league, you just do not need to go over seas for them.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Argentina and SA cant attract overseas born players because they either don't have a domestic league or their economy is shot or both not in my view because they wouldn't do it.

What do you mean by overseas ?

Because Argentina have plenty of Uruguayans in there leagues and South Africa have lots of Namibians and Zimbabweans in their league, you just do not need to go over seas for them.

The first ever Uruguayan player signed for the Jaguares recently. The Jaguares are their only fully professional side. The other leagues aren't financially strong enough to attract high calibre players. Uruguay's economy is also much stronger than Argentina's so its actually more attractive for Argentinians to go to Uruguay for work than the other way round. A lot of Argentinian's have bank accounts in Montevideo for example as it is only a short ferry ride from Buenos Aires and Uruguayan banks are much more reliable and the Uruguayan currency consistently more stable.

In SA they have been Zimbabweans playing for the Boks over the years.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: November tests general

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 11:23 am

Nicely side stepped ld.

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Re: November tests general

Post by SecretFly on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 11:31 am

I like how you all did this...sidestepped the closing down of the other thread and whipped over to here to continue it.

Gold stars for the lot of you. OK

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 11:52 am

Collapse2005 wrote:The first ever Uruguayan player signed for the Jaguares recently. The Jaguares are their only fully professional side. The other leagues aren't financially strong enough to attract high calibre players. Uruguay's economy is also much stronger than Argentina's so its actually more attractive for Argentinians to go to Uruguay for work than the other way round. A lot of Argentinian's have bank accounts in Montevideo for example as it is only a short ferry ride from Buenos Aires and Uruguayan banks are much more reliable and the Uruguayan currency consistently more stable.

In SA they have been Zimbabweans playing for the Boks over the years.


well you have now just contradicted yourself, are you for real on here ?

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 11:56 am

How?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 12:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:How?

because you said this:-

Collapse2005 wrote:Argentina and SA cant attract overseas born players because they either don't have a domestic league or their economy is shot or both not in my view because they wouldn't do it.

Then said this:-

Collapse2005 wrote:The first ever Uruguayan player signed for the Jaguares recently. The Jaguares are their only fully professional side. The other leagues aren't financially strong enough to attract high calibre players. Uruguay's economy is also much stronger than Argentina's so its actually more attractive for Argentinians to go to Uruguay for work than the other way round. A lot of Argentinian's have bank accounts in Montevideo for example as it is only a short ferry ride from Buenos Aires and Uruguayan banks are much more reliable and the Uruguayan currency consistently more stable.

In SA they have been Zimbabweans playing for the Boks over the years.

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Re: November tests general

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 12:20 pm

Haha because I said the Jaguares attracted their first ever Uruguayan? 1 only ever?

Is that the contradiction?

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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 12:22 pm

Because you said that BOTH Argentina and SA CANT attract overseas players, when clearly they can.

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Re: November tests general

Post by BamBam on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 12:23 pm

That well known hotbed of top flight, world renowned club rugby that is Uruguay lost a player to the Jaguares? Well knock me down with a feather

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Re: November tests general

Post by The Oracle on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 12:49 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Haha because I said the Jaguares attracted their first ever Uruguayan? 1 only ever?

Is that the contradiction?

I got what you meant. They've only managed to attract ONE in history, which suggests they do not attract many to the league.
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Re: November tests general

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 1:07 pm

Oracle, your such a hypocrite on here.

Now if it were the other way around, you would be pointing out to me that I am wrong because it does happen, and you would be letting me know I am contradicting myself.

So please, give over. OK

I noticed you have ignored the questions I put to you on this thread as well. Rolling Eyes

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Re: November tests general

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