Glasgow and Edinburgh 21st Century Banter

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Post by BigGee on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 9:05 am

First topic message reminder :

Something is going on this year

Both Glasgow and Edinburgh are playing quite well!

Is it a dream, am I imagining it, am I going to wake up in a cold sweat and find out that we are really cr*p again?

Someone please reassure me!!

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Post by BigGee on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 1:32 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46179997

Tom English take on the departure of Hoggy.

Should Glasgow splash the cash on another star signing or use it to preserve the depth of their current squad.

We have 27 players out of contract this year, so Hoggy is unlikely to be the only big name to be moving on. I suppose his was the question that needed to be settled first though along with that of Dave Rennie. This decision was probably made a good while ago and hopefully succession planning is already well under way.

I really hope we hear something about that in the not to distant future. If the PR department at Warriors has any common sense about them, then they will have something up their sleeves to sweeten this rather bitter , if not unexpected, pill.

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Post by RDW on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 1:48 pm

Is there a list of the contracts that are up? Or who are the main ones?

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:01 pm

Only skim read the article, but from what I read I can't agree with Tom on this one. Fans tend to love nothing more than a local lad coming through and stepping up. It's part of the appeal of Hoggy/Finn, that are they are both superb players, but they didn't burst onto the scene being world class. They developed over time, and fans watched them come good and then break into the international scene. Young fans especially enjoy seeing their club heros turning out for Scotland. Throwing a wedge of cash at a NSQ player, might be necessary if there is a total skills gap, but Glasgow (and Edinburgh) should look closer to home first.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:02 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Is there a list of the contracts that are up? Or who are the main ones?

It would be easier to say who is not!

Dunbar
Hastings
Seymour
All the props
George Horne
Fusaro
Thompson
Peterson
Jones H

and a lot of others as well

They need to sort out the coaching ticket very quickly and then can get on with deceiding who stays and who goes. I think there will be a redrawing of the Glasgow squad a bit for next season. Some of the youngsters will be looking for better deals and a few of the older ones on better money may be calling it a day or moving on.

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Post by 123456789. on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:08 pm

BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Is there a list of the contracts that are up? Or who are the main ones?

It would be easier to say who is not!

Dunbar
Hastings
Seymour
All the props
George Horne
Fusaro
Thompson
Peterson
Jones H

and a lot of others as well

They need to sort out the coaching ticket very quickly and then can get on with deceiding who stays and who goes. I think there will be a redrawing of the Glasgow squad a bit for next season. Some of the youngsters will be looking for better deals and a few of the older ones on better money may be calling it a day or moving on.

Oh dear, is Rennie off too?

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Post by BigGee on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:09 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:Only skim read the article, but from what I read I can't agree with Tom on this one.  Fans tend to love nothing more than a local lad coming through and stepping up.  It's part of the appeal of Hoggy/Finn, that are they are both superb players, but they didn't burst onto the scene being world class.  They developed over time, and fans watched them come good and then break into the international scene.  Young fans especially enjoy seeing their club heros turning out for Scotland.  Throwing a wedge of cash at a NSQ player, might be necessary if there is a total skills gap, but Glasgow (and Edinburgh) should look closer to home first.

There may be a bit of a skills gap at FB for Glasgow next season.

Thompson and Jacko are both out of contract, one has not played much and the other probably past his best. Even if Seymour comes in to cover, he is the wrong side of thirty now.

I don't think a decent replacement from the SH would cost us 400,000 pa though so it may require a bit of a stop gap solution. Maybe there is a SQ out there that we are not aware of yet.

In truth I am a bit wary of marquee signings, some of the ones we have tried, think Big T, have not really worked out so well. Sean Maitland and Big Josh were better, but some others have not worked either. Mostly we have done well with the hidden gems, like our Fijians.

We have to let this play out of course, but we really need to sort out the coaching ticket first. We have a much better chance of attracting decent players with a coach of DR stature on board.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:13 pm

123456789. wrote:
BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Is there a list of the contracts that are up? Or who are the main ones?

It would be easier to say who is not!

Dunbar
Hastings
Seymour
All the props
George Horne
Fusaro
Thompson
Peterson
Jones H

and a lot of others as well

They need to sort out the coaching ticket very quickly and then can get on with deceiding who stays and who goes. I think there will be a redrawing of the Glasgow squad a bit for next season. Some of the youngsters will be looking for better deals and a few of the older ones on better money may be calling it a day or moving on.

Oh dear, is Rennie off too?

He signed a two year deal with the option of a third, so it is likely to be being negotiated now. He was after the Wales job, but now that is gone, he may be more likely to stay, particularly as he seems to be building a half decent team now. Still post WC there will undoubtedly be other opportunities. I suppose it depends on whether he wants to be in the market for them. I can't imagine Glasgow will be happy to wait that long. They need to get this wrapped up very soon.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:18 pm

For FB, could Rory Hughes be the answer?

I've not seen huge amounts but he seems capable, and whilst injuries have held him back a bit, he seems to have enough about him to suggest he might be an option longer term.

I think maybe your point about not getting a marquee player is key. You're right that the hidden gems have been better, and cheaper. Throwing significant amounts of cash at a name isn't really sensible. Which is primarily the suggestion i was disagreeing with.

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Post by RDW on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:27 pm

On the basis that any player that does re-sign is likely to do so on better terms, I suspect the Glasgow fans may have to limit their ambitions on the Hoggy money going on a high profile player.

It's not good planning to have over half the squad's contracts up at the same time!

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Post by 123456789. on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:29 pm

I've read the English article, sounds like Glasgow could be on the precipice of something nasty. They need to get some good players in and fast. Not only for crowds but because of the fact we have a lot of our best young players there. Firstly, because they need to have experienced players around them to help them grow. Secondly, because they need good players to win matches, losing matches will stunt their development. Thirdly, because if results go downhill, then players will leave at the first opportunity.

That being said Hogg leaving in itself isn't a disaster in rugby terms, he's away 11 weeks a year with Scotland as it is. Chuck in two-three weeks of injuries and he's missing most games. Glasgow did reach the final with Peter Murchie at full-back. But if they plan to reach the heights of European rugby then they need to have game breakers not players who failed to break into the Harlequins first team.

But George Horne is developing into something special, as is Hastings, Dunbar is finally getting a run of games injury free, Peter Horne has always been a classy operator for Glasgow, Huw Jones is up there with the best in the world at his best, Tommy Seymour is a British and Irish Lion. But a headline player, or an exciting option is important to keep Glasgow ticking over in the right direction after Hogg.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:39 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:On the basis that any player that does re-sign is likely to do so on better terms, I suspect the Glasgow fans may have to limit their ambitions on the Hoggy money going on a high profile player.

It's not good planning to have over half the squad's contracts up at the same time!

I believe this is an SRU thing. Last season most of Edinburgh's squad was out of contract (hence why so many moved on) and this season it's Glasgow's turn. From what I can remember they do it this way to reduce the workload on the contract folk. As contracts tend to be for 2 years and finish at the end of a season, so every year Edinburgh or Glasgow will have contracts to negotiate. It does make some sense.

Still a pain though

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Post by BigGee on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:48 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:On the basis that any player that does re-sign is likely to do so on better terms, I suspect the Glasgow fans may have to limit their ambitions on the Hoggy money going on a high profile player.

It's not good planning to have over half the squad's contracts up at the same time!

There may be some strategy in that. Some of which may already have been negotiated and we just don't know about yet. George Horne for instance, who only got a one year deal last year, may well go onto a three year deal with a good pay rise this time around.

Trouble is though, when two years is your standard contract in professional rugby, you are always going to be negotiating contracts, however you try and plan it.

Not everyone gets a rise though RDW, some are just happy to get a contract. Some may get less as they are no longer a guaranteed first team player.

Contracts in professional sport is a very murky and poorly understood area and almost no two will ever be alike, even for what you might imagine are very similar players sometimes. I bet that George Horne ends up on a lot more money than Ali Price down the line for example.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 12 Nov 2018, 2:51 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:For FB, could Rory Hughes be the answer?

I've not seen huge amounts but he seems capable, and whilst injuries have held him back a bit, he seems to have enough about him to suggest he might be an option longer term.

I think maybe your point about not getting a marquee player is key.  You're right that the hidden gems have been better, and cheaper.  Throwing significant amounts of cash at a name isn't really sensible.  Which is primarily the suggestion i was disagreeing with.

When he is not injured, which is often, Hughes is a solid player.

He is not x factor though and at this stage in his career is never likely to become so. Probably never really going to be more than a squad player. He does not seem to be to high on DR pecking order.

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Post by RDW on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 11:43 am

https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/news/chiefs-sign-hogg

Confirmed.

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Post by RDW on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 11:56 am

In terms of the kind of club we'd want our players moving to, the Chiefs are probably right up there:

- Top class team capable of winning trophies
- Winning environment
- Hard working, honest culture that should create an environment for him to improve as a player
- Should keep him grounded
- Doesn't have to learn French

Compare that to some other teams he could have gone to (not going to name names!) and it is one of the best we probably could have hoped for.

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Post by EST on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 12:07 pm

I'd agree RDW, slightly surprised he chose the Chiefs, but it appears to be a good fit.

This and the recent Russell move does present a wider problem for Scottish rugby though, are we to accept that we are a ultimately a selling club and that the best we can hope for is to maintain our current position? There is no way the SRU can expect to progress if we can't keep hold of our best talent.

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Post by BigGee on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 12:42 pm

To be fair, we may not be doing so badly on that front. It is not all doom and gloom.

Hoggy was a superstar 2 years ago and he re-signed then. At z significant cost to Scottish rugby.

Same with Johnny Gray, who had clubs queuing up for him, he put pen to paper as well. Nell did the same at Edinburgh when he was in serious demand.

We have had Hoggy for 9 years and we should be thankful for that. Players sometimes need to move not just for money.

With only two clubs some of our players will always need to move on, we just have to accept that and carry on developing new ones. There are a lot of promising youngsters in the system now, surely one of them could become a decent FB

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 12:45 pm

EST wrote:I'd agree RDW, slightly surprised he chose the Chiefs, but it appears to be a good fit.

This and the recent Russell move does present a wider problem for Scottish rugby though, are we to accept that we are a ultimately a selling club and that the best we can hope for is to maintain our current position?  There is no way the SRU can expect to progress if we can't keep hold of our best talent.

I'd just split that out into Edinburgh and Glasgow will struggle to progress if we can't keep hold of our best talent, from a Scotland point of view it can be viewed in a much more positive light - more gametime for young players coming through and top players challenging themselves in new environments. But definitely agree that it is a danger to the progression of the clubs, even if we have to be realistic about the nature of the budgets we're working within.

From a Chiefs point of view I found Rob Baxter's comments when Skinner was called up to be pretty refreshing, saying that he wants his players to get the most out of their international careers and to use it as an opportunity grow as a player (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45891435). That attitude towards international rugby is another tick in the Chiefs box for me.

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Post by EST on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 4:01 pm

BigGee wrote:To be fair, we may not be doing so badly on that front. It is not all doom and gloom.

Hoggy was a superstar 2 years ago and he re-signed then. At z significant cost to Scottish rugby.

Same with Johnny Gray, who had clubs queuing up for him, he put pen to paper as well. Nell did the same at Edinburgh when he was in serious demand.

We have had Hoggy for 9 years and we should be thankful for that. Players sometimes need to move not just for money.

With only two clubs some of our players will always need to move on, we just have to accept that and carry on developing new ones. There are a lot of promising youngsters in the system now, surely one of them could become a decent FB

I'd agree with a lot of that BigGee, I also understand the benefits to Scottish Rugby, with our limit of two teams, of having space free up for young talent. All that being said, if we want to continue to grow the game, I think one of our pro teams needs to take the next step in Europe. The Irish provinces have made been able build a supporter base and conveyor belt of talent, partially because they have consolidated their best players at the clubs. They obviously have the favourable tax arrangement for sports stars and don't have a large football league, but it's hard to see how Glasgow/Edinburgh could ever get to the level of Leinster or Munster in the current climate.

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Post by BigGee on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 4:13 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46182640

An interesting development, finally a Scottish rugby players association or union, is being set up by Tim Swinson.

Examples given by him for the need for one are the handling of a supposedly promised bonus to Glasgow players for qualifying for Europe and the John Hardie disciplinary case.

Swinson, who is a bright lad with a masters in political science to his name I believe, is very diplomatic about how he addresses these issues, merely saying that the presence of a union would have been reassuring and added transparency. It does seem the bonus was paid in the end, nut it was a situation that dragged on for a long time before being sorted.

It is surprising that there was not one already I guess, most other areas already have one. The SRU, unsurprisingly, never have been keen on it, but it is hard to see how they can resist it, especially if it is all done above board, in their new spirit of transparency.

Apparently it has 100% buy in from the players.

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Post by RDW on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 4:20 pm

Big move for Swinson given he's still an employee of the SRU - huge credit for him doing this.

Also paints further worrying pictures of the SRU - the Glasgow bonus thing is a right mess, and the Hardie incident certainly gave the impression of massively sweeping things under the carpet.

Surely the SRU can't block a Union forming? I'm assuming that would be against employment law?

As long as they aren't like the feckin RMT who strike all the bloody time!!

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Post by BigGee on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 4:41 pm

I am sure they can't block it, apart from how it would look, as you say probably illegal.

They have just never actively encouraged it before, probably actively discouraged it in fact.

The numbers of professional rugby players in Scotland will make it's financial viability marginal though I would say. How much are players willing to put into the pot to allow it to function. Swinson may be happy to do the leg work at the moment, probably a nice project for him whilst he is rehabbing, but longer term someone is going to have to get paid to do it.

A responsible employer would likely encourage this and even make a financial contribution to its running in the interest of harmony with its employees, who are also its assets.

Then again, this is the SRU we are talking about, who despite their progress in many areas still seem a step or two behind the times.

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Post by BigGee on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 5:09 pm

EST wrote:
BigGee wrote:To be fair, we may not be doing so badly on that front. It is not all doom and gloom.

Hoggy was a superstar 2 years ago and he re-signed then. At z significant cost to Scottish rugby.

Same with Johnny Gray, who had clubs queuing up for him, he put pen to paper as well. Nell did the same at Edinburgh when he was in serious demand.

We have had Hoggy for 9 years and we should be thankful for that. Players sometimes need to move not just for money.

With only two clubs some of our players will always need to move on, we just have to accept that and carry on developing new ones. There are a lot of promising youngsters in the system now, surely one of them could become a decent FB

I'd agree with a lot of that BigGee, I also understand the benefits to Scottish Rugby, with our limit of two teams, of having space free up for young talent.  All that being said, if we want to continue to grow the game, I think one of our pro teams needs to take the next step in Europe.  The Irish provinces have made been able build a supporter base and conveyor belt of talent, partially because they have consolidated their best players at the clubs.  They obviously have the favourable tax arrangement for sports stars and don't have a large football league, but it's hard to see how Glasgow/Edinburgh could ever get to the level of Leinster or Munster in the current climate.

It is a different situation in Ireland, England and Wales, who all decree that players can only play for their national teams if based in the country. That is a massive disincentive for players to move on, but would never work for us with our much more limited pool of players.

The Irish have also worked a tax break system for their sports people which again makes it beneficial for them to remain in Ireland. We don't do that and if I am honest, I am not sure we should. The hard up general public subsidising already well paid sports stars may not sit well politically or morally. As you point out as well, rugby is not the main sport in Scotland and if we start subsidising rugby players, why should we not do it for footballers as well.

I would rather Hoggy had stayed, he is our poster boy and one of the reasons both Scotland and Glasgow are doing well. The game has flourished while he has been playing and he has played a big part in that. I imagine we probably could have found an extra 100,000 to keep him if money was the issue, though I don't think it was the main driver, That would however have caused a spiral in wage demands as it would have set a new yardstick and could easily have gotten us into financial difficulty down the line. He was probably already earning more than the top earners at Exeter, Slade and Nowell, so it does not sound as if our players are so badly paid but could we really justify spending a tenth of our wage bill on one player (assuming £5 million budget, which is probably not accurate) and how would that go down with the rest of the squad? He has gone to Exeter as a Marque signing and therefore does not appear on the bottom line of their salary cap. At the end of the day the English clubs have more money than us, we can't get away from that.

As I said before though, I am not sure that money was the main driver. Rugby in Scotland, like it or not, is a bit of a bubble and sometimes players want to find out what life is like outside and good luck to him if that is his main reason for seeking a change.

Glasgow won't fall to bits without him, we have actually been playing pretty well while he has been off injured and the money that he frees up will allow us to retain some of our other good players, bring in someone else, or maybe a bit of both.

Like it or not, we unfortunately have to accept that we won't always be able to keep some of our players, even our best ones. Just think though, a few years ago he was on the point of disappearing off to Ulster in the huff. He has given us a lot of good times since then.

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Post by RDW on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 5:18 pm

I think we have to be realistic here - unless something significantly changes financially we're at best going to remain competitive. I can't see Edinburgh and Glasgow being able to make the step up to regularly winning in Europe. To do so we would need all of our Scotland stars staying in Scotland and that just won't happen financially.

It is going to be bloody hard to remain competitive never mind push for more. I think if Glasgow and Edinburgh can remain in play-off contention each season and compete in Europe with the odd QF spot that's about the best we can hope for, which to be fair is miles ahead of where we were at 10 years ago.

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Post by BigGee on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 8:52 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/why-stuart-hogg-had-to-leave-scotland-and-the-reasons-exeter-chiefs-are-the-perfect-match

A decent article by Jamie Lyall about why Hoggy had to go and why he choose Exeter along with what we might do to replace him.

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 10:07 pm

It is a good move for Hogg and a great club to go to. Skinner has a younger brother who may be good and having three Scots internationals (if Low stays) around may help with scouting.

If it is the choice of Hogg or expanding Scotstoun to 10k, it is more important in the long run to get the stadium up slightly. Exeter have the money because they sell 5k more tickets a game and develop their young players fantastically well. We have got the developing of players down and now it is time for the stadium. If we are going to spend some of the Hoggy money on a player, I don't want a Masaga or Flynn. I am tempted to put DTH there and look to put the money into a good 6/8 type.

As for Swinson, this may put the nail in the coffin for his international ambitions. Skinner, Gray, Toolis and Gilchrist are going to be tough to get back into. R Gray may get healthy at some point. He may have hacked off the SRU with this move behind the scenes. It is good for him to do and with the super six coming in, there should be scope for the support to reach a wider level. For all my criticism of him as only a club player, he seems like a good bloke to keep around in Scottish rugby as head of a players union or reffing.

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Post by EST on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 10:20 am

BigGee wrote:
EST wrote:
BigGee wrote:To be fair, we may not be doing so badly on that front. It is not all doom and gloom.

Hoggy was a superstar 2 years ago and he re-signed then. At z significant cost to Scottish rugby.

Same with Johnny Gray, who had clubs queuing up for him, he put pen to paper as well. Nell did the same at Edinburgh when he was in serious demand.

We have had Hoggy for 9 years and we should be thankful for that. Players sometimes need to move not just for money.

With only two clubs some of our players will always need to move on, we just have to accept that and carry on developing new ones. There are a lot of promising youngsters in the system now, surely one of them could become a decent FB

I'd agree with a lot of that BigGee, I also understand the benefits to Scottish Rugby, with our limit of two teams, of having space free up for young talent.  All that being said, if we want to continue to grow the game, I think one of our pro teams needs to take the next step in Europe.  The Irish provinces have made been able build a supporter base and conveyor belt of talent, partially because they have consolidated their best players at the clubs.  They obviously have the favourable tax arrangement for sports stars and don't have a large football league, but it's hard to see how Glasgow/Edinburgh could ever get to the level of Leinster or Munster in the current climate.

It is a different situation in Ireland, England and Wales, who all decree that players can only play for their national teams if based in the country. That is a massive disincentive for players to move on, but would never work for us with our much more limited pool of players.

The Irish have also worked a tax break system for their sports people which again makes it beneficial for them to remain in Ireland. We don't do that and if I am honest, I am not sure we should. The hard up general public subsidising already well paid sports stars may not sit well politically or morally. As you point out as well, rugby is not the main sport in Scotland and if we start subsidising rugby players, why should we not do it for footballers as well.

I would rather Hoggy had stayed, he is our poster boy and one of the reasons both Scotland and Glasgow are doing well. The game has flourished while he has been playing and he has played a big part in that. I imagine we probably could have found an extra 100,000 to keep him if money was the issue, though I don't think it was the main driver, That would however have caused a spiral in wage demands as it would have set a new yardstick and could easily have gotten us into financial difficulty down the line. He was probably already earning more than the top earners at Exeter, Slade and Nowell, so it does not sound as if our players are so badly paid but could we really justify spending a tenth of our wage bill on one player (assuming £5 million budget, which is probably not accurate) and how would that go down with the rest of the squad? He has gone to Exeter as a Marque signing and therefore does not appear on the bottom line of their salary cap. At the end of the day the English clubs have more money than us, we can't get away from that.

As I said before though, I am not sure that money was the main driver. Rugby in Scotland, like it or not, is a bit of a bubble and sometimes players want to find out what life is like outside and good luck to him if that is his main reason for seeking a change.

Glasgow won't fall to bits without him, we have actually been playing pretty well while he has been off injured and the money that he frees up will allow us to retain some of our other good players, bring in someone else, or maybe a bit of both.

Like it or not, we unfortunately have to accept that we won't always be able to keep some of our players, even our best ones. Just think though, a few years ago he was on the point of disappearing off to Ulster in the huff. He has given us a lot of good times since then.

As ever BigGee, you speak a lot of sense, and I agree with much of it. My main issue is that the national team has progressed as a result of systemic change at almost every 'professional' level - from the implementation of the academies to the pro teams being appropriately backed financially. My main question is that I wonder if our national team can continue to improve if our pro teams tread water? It's a virtuous circle of success at pro level, leading to Scottish players playing at a higher level, which feeds into the national team and so on - if we break that link can we ever take the step up as a national team?

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Post by BigGee on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:23 am

Are our pro teams treading water though. Over the past few years we have had one high flying team Glasgow, who have actually slumped a bit the past two years and one basket case, Edinburgh.

Both teams are actually doing a lot better this year and look to be on an upward curve. Sustaining that curve, I suspect is what you are worrying about and that is a fair question. I think it is unlikely that we will ever be able to buy players in to achieve that, we are going to be dependant on growing our own, which to be fair, we seem to be doing a lot better at as well. Our age grade teams are now performing well and have taken some noticeable scalps. The U18 team were the pick of the home countries last year and those players will start to filter through over the next few years.

Internationally what realistically is our level given our resources?

There is a good argument to say that we are already over achieving given what we are working with.

Teams from small countries with limited resources have done well before though, in rugby and in other sports. Think Croatia in the football WC.

I think a lot of it is in the mindset as much as the resources. What this group of professional players in Scotland have now got is the belief that they can win games against historically more powerful teams, many times in the past we had lost games before we even kicked off.

If it was just about resources, then England and France would have won every tournament they ever played in.

We are never going to be able to match that and probably just have to continue to be clever in the way that we manage what we have got. We have definitely got better at doing that over the past few years.

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Post by bsando on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 11:31 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:It is a good move for Hogg and a great club to go to. Skinner has a younger brother who may be good and having three Scots internationals (if Low stays) around may help with scouting.

If it is the choice of Hogg or expanding Scotstoun to 10k, it is more important in the long run to get the stadium up slightly. Exeter have the money because they sell 5k more tickets a game and develop their young players fantastically well. We have got the developing of players down and now it is time for the stadium. If we are going to spend some of the Hoggy money on a player, I don't want a Masaga or Flynn. I am tempted to put DTH there and look to put the money into a good 6/8 type.

As for Swinson, this may put the nail in the coffin for his international ambitions. Skinner, Gray, Toolis and Gilchrist are going to be tough to get back into. R Gray may get healthy at some point. He may have hacked off the SRU with this move behind the scenes. It is good for him to do and with the super six coming in, there should be scope for the support to reach a wider level. For all my criticism of him as only a club player, he seems like a good bloke to keep around in Scottish rugby as head of a players union or reffing.

I'm gonna go in the completely opposite direction and say Glasgow should try and sign Damian McKenzie from the Chiefs! I have zero idea how realistic that is but he'd be a straight swap for Hogg (albeit 1" shorter). McKenzie is a bright prospect for the All Blacks but perhaps his size has come under scrutiny a little bit this Autumn. 2-3 years at Glasgow, post RWC 2019, with is old coach DR may be a nice way to build on his career looking ahead. Then he could return to NZ with a nice notch on his CV and hopefully make the next one.

I agree another journeyman SH player is not a good trade for Hogg. I think bringing through a young fullback would be better or pulling Kinghorn from Edinburgh.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 12:22 pm

bsando wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:It is a good move for Hogg and a great club to go to. Skinner has a younger brother who may be good and having three Scots internationals (if Low stays) around may help with scouting.

If it is the choice of Hogg or expanding Scotstoun to 10k, it is more important in the long run to get the stadium up slightly. Exeter have the money because they sell 5k more tickets a game and develop their young players fantastically well. We have got the developing of players down and now it is time for the stadium. If we are going to spend some of the Hoggy money on a player, I don't want a Masaga or Flynn. I am tempted to put DTH there and look to put the money into a good 6/8 type.

As for Swinson, this may put the nail in the coffin for his international ambitions. Skinner, Gray, Toolis and Gilchrist are going to be tough to get back into. R Gray may get healthy at some point. He may have hacked off the SRU with this move behind the scenes. It is good for him to do and with the super six coming in, there should be scope for the support to reach a wider level. For all my criticism of him as only a club player, he seems like a good bloke to keep around in Scottish rugby as head of a players union or reffing.

I'm gonna go in the completely opposite direction and say Glasgow should try and sign Damian McKenzie from the Chiefs! I have zero idea how realistic that is but he'd be a straight swap for Hogg (albeit 1" shorter). McKenzie is a bright prospect for the All Blacks but perhaps his size has come under scrutiny a little bit this Autumn. 2-3 years at Glasgow, post RWC 2019, with is old coach DR may be a nice way to build on his career looking ahead. Then he could return to NZ with a nice notch on his CV and hopefully make the next one.

I agree another journeyman SH player is not a good trade for Hogg. I think bringing through a young fullback would be better or pulling Kinghorn from Edinburgh.

Assuming this is all very tongue in cheek?

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Post by Eejit on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 2:56 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
bsando wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:It is a good move for Hogg and a great club to go to. Skinner has a younger brother who may be good and having three Scots internationals (if Low stays) around may help with scouting.

If it is the choice of Hogg or expanding Scotstoun to 10k, it is more important in the long run to get the stadium up slightly. Exeter have the money because they sell 5k more tickets a game and develop their young players fantastically well. We have got the developing of players down and now it is time for the stadium. If we are going to spend some of the Hoggy money on a player, I don't want a Masaga or Flynn. I am tempted to put DTH there and look to put the money into a good 6/8 type.

As for Swinson, this may put the nail in the coffin for his international ambitions. Skinner, Gray, Toolis and Gilchrist are going to be tough to get back into. R Gray may get healthy at some point. He may have hacked off the SRU with this move behind the scenes. It is good for him to do and with the super six coming in, there should be scope for the support to reach a wider level. For all my criticism of him as only a club player, he seems like a good bloke to keep around in Scottish rugby as head of a players union or reffing.

I'm gonna go in the completely opposite direction and say Glasgow should try and sign Damian McKenzie from the Chiefs! I have zero idea how realistic that is but he'd be a straight swap for Hogg (albeit 1" shorter). McKenzie is a bright prospect for the All Blacks but perhaps his size has come under scrutiny a little bit this Autumn. 2-3 years at Glasgow, post RWC 2019, with is old coach DR may be a nice way to build on his career looking ahead. Then he could return to NZ with a nice notch on his CV and hopefully make the next one.

I agree another journeyman SH player is not a good trade for Hogg. I think bringing through a young fullback would be better or pulling Kinghorn from Edinburgh.

Assuming this is all very tongue in cheek?

Perhaps that is wishful thinking, but there's nothing wrong with that!. If we're playing fantasy fullback draft I think I'd go with Matteo Minozzi from Zebre.

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Post by RDW on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 2:59 pm

You can bugger off if you think you can get Kingorn. I'd like to be in the room when someone suggests that to Cockers!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 3:00 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:You can bugger off if you think you can get Kingorn. I'd like to be in the room when someone suggests that to Cockers!

I wouldn't, there would be chairs flying everywhere!

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Post by Eejit on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 3:10 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:You can bugger off if you think you can get Kingorn. I'd like to be in the room when someone suggests that to Cockers!

I'd rather have Darcy Graham that King Blairhorn if that's ok with you. Hug

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Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 3:20 pm

Eejit wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:You can bugger off if you think you can get Kingorn. I'd like to be in the room when someone suggests that to Cockers!

I'd rather have Darcy Graham that King Blairhorn if that's ok with you. Hug

I've heard Fowles can play full back, he loves salt & vinegar on his chips and is secretly from Ayr.

Come on Rennie you know it makes sense, make the call.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 10:45 am

Could be rubbish, but rumours are that Huw Jones is off to Tigers.

He's one of the many many players out of contract at Glasgow and is probably fairly highly sought after.
Not sure it would be a great move for him, but they are probably offering a fair wedge for his services.

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Post by RDW on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 10:54 am

With so many players out of contract I suspect there will be a few big names leaving.

I fear Glasgow and Edinburgh may be plundered of some big names next season.

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Post by Welly on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 10:55 am

If he can bring Mata with him on the way down that would be nice.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 11:17 am

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/huw-jones-is-in-advanced-talks-with-premiership-heavyweight

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Post by RDW on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 11:21 am

Wouldn't be surprised if he leaves - it's not like he's really taken to playing for Glasgow and having only signed to be able to Scotland he probably doesn't have any sentimental ties. I'm sure he'll be offered big money too.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 11:29 am

It will be a big blow to lose both him and Hoggy in one season.

We have not seen the best of him really in a Glasgow shirt, but the season is shaping up nicely and much better things are potentially just around the corner.

He would be the next most expensive player on the team after Hoggy in my book, we should try and keep him, but it may be beyond us.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 11:35 am

I guess with Jones, it's more the idea of him rather than the reality. He's been injured or out for form for Glasgow for quite a while, it's really only been this season (so far) that he's shown anything like the form he's capable of, for Glasgow. I know there are mitigating factors in this, so not having a go at him, but would he really be that big a loss?

I guess the short answer is yes, because he is a quality player, but they did well enough without him for a lot of last season, so should be ok going forward to.

Still not ideal to lose 3 of a team's best players in the space of a year.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 12:22 pm

I am hoping (not necessarily very optimistically) that the there were two key moves in the transfer market that needed to be sorted first for Glasgow. Once they are in place then the rest will be a lot easier to work out

The first one was Hoggy, who was always going to be the highest player on the payroll. It would be really hard to know how much was in play prior to him making his call.

The other is of course DR, as players are going to be less likely to commit without knowing what the coaching situation is.

I am kind of hoping that both of these situations were actually sorted out a while back, particularly with DR, who really needs to commit or not. He is an honourable guy and knows that himself, his decisions will no doubt impact on others. The team is a work in progress, but seems to be progressing nicely, it would be an awful shame to walk away now. Alternatively though, he may feel that Glasgow just can't live up to his ambition and plenty of other clubs may be able to do that!

Glasgow have always been good in the PR department of sugaring the pill. Bad news tens to be accompanied by something a bit brighter a few days later to keep the fans on board.

We are all hoping and waiting for the announcement!

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Post by Eejit on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 12:26 pm

According to the Glasgow forum there are 26 players out of contract at the end of this season including ) Zander, Kebble, Scott Cummings Wee George, Adam Hastings, Niko, Sam Johnson and Tommy Seymour. As good as it would be to have a player like Jones involved those guys are very much the building blocks of the team and would be re-signed as a priority you would think. The article seems to be indicating that he'll be going down for a few bags and its probably not a good idea to be comparing wallet sizes with a team like the Tigers.

Historically whenever Glasgow have struggled for players the SRU have just let them raid Edinburgh like they're a shop window on Princes Street. So who are you giving us Luvvies? Return ticket for Bennett? Chris Dean's dream move across the M8? RDW stalking victim Matt Scott??

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Post by RDW on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 12:42 pm

You can get tae when it comes to any of those 3!

Bennett back to Glasgow isn't the most ridiculous idea though if Jones is leaving.

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Post by bsando on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 1:20 pm

Really gonna need that Damian McKenzie signing now... shame to lose Jones, especially as his form is turning on. I just wonder how Glasgow are gonna fair next season? Rennie’s contract up this season too is it
Not? Will he want to continue if Glasgow fail in Europe and bomb out of Pro 14 playoffs? I’m sure there’ll be interest for him from other clubs with bigger purses. Hope SRU can manage this well and ensure both Edinburgh and Glasgow start next season looking strong.

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Post by RDW on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 1:55 pm

I wonder if we'll see the new Scotland squad additions tempted up to Glasgow. Imagine Skinner, Thomson and Graham added to the Glasgow pack?? Wouldn't be soft touches anymore!

I actually hope Skinner stays at Exeter - he's going to learn a hell of a lot more there than he would do at Glasgow. There's no real 'reason' for Thomson to stay at Scarlets when he gets capped by Scotland, but they brought him over to the UK so he may feel some responsibility to repay them for that. Graham is an interesting one - Newcastle have massively stuttered this season after a great run last year so you never know he may look north.

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Post by bsando on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 2:11 pm

Perhaps Harris would be tempted to move north too? Didn’t think of him earlier but could be a straight swap for Jones actually.

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Post by Eejit on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 2:40 pm

bsando wrote:Perhaps Harris would be tempted to move north too? Didn’t think of him earlier but could be a straight swap for Jones actually.

Suppose so but can't imagine Falcons being too pleased to let him go. His club form is excellent I understand even if he hasn't shown up well internationally.

Minus Huw Jones in the centre Glasgow have: Pete Horne, Alex Dunbar, Sam Johnson, Nick Grigg and Paddy Kelly so we aren't in dire need assuming all stay on and Kelly gets some gametime. Assuming Jones is on a fair wedge there's probably areas of the team that need strengthening as a priority before a 13.

EDIT: Forgot Stafford McDowall


Last edited by Eejit on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by RDW on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 2:45 pm

Of those though Grigg is the only natural 13

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