Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

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Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Biltong on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 8:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continue here about the greatness of NH rugby players, the money the clubs have, the greatness of the SH rugby players and the leak to the north.

Other topic is full

Etc.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop with the silly insults lord.

What silly insults ?


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:37 pm

The Oracle wrote:So what I’ve gleaned from this thread is that we have to respect individuals feelings on the subject, i.e. peoples right to either support and like the rules or not. So why the f**k are you still arguing about it? Respect each other’s right to feel how they like on the topic and move on.

Yet you felt the need to post this. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:37 pm

It’s quite possible for an uncapped player to switch for the simple reason of playing rugby and getting paid to do it, if there are limited opportunities to do so where they live.  

LD provided a sort of definition of a project player in an earlier post.  Not sure I’d agree with it entirely.   It has tended to be a label slapped on any uncapped player who moves to another country irrespective of the reasons they may have done so.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster have quotas on NIE foreign players and nominating special project players who could qualify for Ireland.  Connacht don’t have project players per se, they just recruit within their budgetary limits.  

If you look at some Irish examples of capped foreign players, I’d query whether test rugby opportunity was being “dangled” since it’s an option open to any uncapped player playing in another country.  And the player was being sought by the province to fill a gap for them.  

Following the IRFU Player Succession Strategy in 2012, hiring became a bit more focused and selective on who was allowed come in based on playing position.

That strategy has now largely been abandoned with the shift to developing domestic pathways and identifying/developing already Irish-qualified talent.   The first question every time from Nucifora is do you really need him, why can’t you get an IQ player in?

There’s still a few “3-year” uncapped players in the pipeline, such as
Tom McCartney hooker at Connacht, residency qualified last year but at 33/34 is too old.
(Hie former team-mate, Jake Heenan, qualified two years ago, and left for Bristol this season.)
Louis Ludik, is seeing out his days at Ulster, and although RQ won’t feature.
Ditto Wiehahn Herbst as an Ulster prop.
Tyler Bleyendaal, outhalf at Munster is already RQ but has had an unfortunate string of injuries and is unlikely to displace any of the current 10s and upcoming ones.  
Gibson-Park, 9 at Leinster is a test possibility after June 2019 when his current contract ends.
Ditto Jean Kleyn, Munster lock.
Rhys Marshall, Munster hooker is another, who qualifies in 2020.
James Lowe, at Leinster, interestingly, is English qualified through his father/gf and wouldn’t RQ for Ireland until end Nov 2020.   His current contract runs until June 2020.  

As for some of the previous “project players” as dubbed by media and commentators/fans:

Rodney Ah You arrived in Connacht as a short-term injury cover.  That’s why he initially shifted.  Nothing more, that was it.
Quinn Roux got a one year development contract with Leinster that didn’t work out.  He decided to try Connacht.
Nathan White openly laughs when asked if he was a project player.  As he said himself, he tried out at Leinster and it didn’t work out.  He and his family decided to see if they’d move to Galway just to get a contract.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:38 pm

I relation to what I believe happens in England lord is that the rfu do not have anything to do with clubs recruiting players. You can't dispute that. As you seem slow to pick up as long as rules are o eyed I don't mind anyway.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:39 pm

'He's very sapping. .' No need for snide remarks.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:39 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:So what I’ve gleaned from this thread is that we have to respect individuals feelings on the subject, i.e. peoples right to either support and like the rules or not. So why the f**k are you still arguing about it? Respect each other’s right to feel how they like on the topic and move on.

Yet you felt the need to post this. Rolling Eyes


Yes, of course. If you’re demanding that people respect how you feel then it has to work the other way. So if other people are fine with it then respect that too. Don’t tell people they’re wrong if you don’t like people telling you you’re wrong. Because there is no right answer here. Only opinion.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:'He's very sapping. .' No need for snide remarks.

That's not a snide remark, I find you very sapping, that's all. You are hard work. I do try with you on here, but it's not easy.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:41 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I am born and raised in Ireland but now live in Holland, fluent in Dutch and am a Dutch citizen (Dutch passport). In no way would I wish to represent Holland in anything, I am Irish.

I have a pride in where I am from regardless of where I live or ply my trade. That to me is ethical pride.

You switched countries. I think its more unethical of you to have accepted Dutch citizenship without accepting what it means to be Dutch. You are willing to accept the benefits of being a Dutch citizen without ever intending on putting yourself forward as Dutch. That to me is unethical, not what Stander has done.

No, I fully accept the change I made. I married a Dutch lady and have integrated into the Dutch society and am happy with it. I do, however, remain Irish and could not see me either supporting or representing any other country. That may be too difficult concept for you to understand though so I do apologise for that.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:41 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:If you don't want to be Dutch then don't accept citizenship of Holland because it is unethical to do so. It is not unethical to accept citizenship of another country if you are willing to accept what that means. Come on Lord its not difficult.

But CJ Stander is about as Irish as I am. FFS. He did not grow up hoping to don the jersey of the emerald isle did he ? NO, he wanted to wear a different shade of green. You know it, I know it, and so does everybody else.

He is not Irish, yet he is willing to turn his back on what he is and become something else. Which is something I could not do.

So what? Exactly what is the definition of Irish? To some it should be based on bloodline/DNA which in my view is really daft unless you want a totally homogenous inbred society. Maybe you do?

I honestly couldn't care less if he wanted to play for SA when he was a kid, the point is he wants to play for Ireland now, he wants to be an Irish citizen and he wants to make a contribution to his country. What more can you ask from a citizen? Should we just lock down the border and refuse entry to anyone who doesn't have red hair and freckles?




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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:42 pm

Well for 2 threads you have tried to place me at a side of a discussion I'm not on while siding with biltong despite he's the one that is being inconsistent on this issue with who is ok and who isn't depending on the team they are representing.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:43 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:You switched countries. I think its more unethical of you to have accepted Dutch citizenship without accepting what it means to be Dutch.

Change Eiribilly to CJ Stander, and change Dutch to Irish and you can have the same question, which you reckon is OK. Rolling Eyes

I think you have unsurprisingly missed the point. Stander is willing to accept everything that is involved in being Irish, Eirebilly is not willing to accept being Dutch yet is willing to accept the benefits of being a Dutch citizen. BIG difference!!!

How do you know this? You have no idea who I am.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:43 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I am born and raised in Ireland but now live in Holland, fluent in Dutch and am a Dutch citizen (Dutch passport). In no way would I wish to represent Holland in anything, I am Irish.

I have a pride in where I am from regardless of where I live or ply my trade. That to me is ethical pride.

You switched countries. I think its more unethical of you to have accepted Dutch citizenship without accepting what it means to be Dutch. You are willing to accept the benefits of being a Dutch citizen without ever intending on putting yourself forward as Dutch. That to me is unethical, not what Stander has done.

No, I fully accept the change I made. I married a Dutch lady and have integrated into the Dutch society and am happy with it. I do, however, remain Irish and could not see me either supporting or representing any other country. That may be too difficult concept for you to understand though so I do apologise for that.

Sounds like you are an ala carte Dutch citizen which I'm not sure is exactly what's expected. You are Irish and Dutch, you agreed to it when you accepted Dutch citizenship. Same way I am an Irish Australian.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:'He's very sapping. .' No need for snide remarks.

That's not a snide remark, I find you very sapping, that's all. You are hard work. I do try with you on here, but it's not easy.

Your lack of self-awareness is a marvel to behold.

Truly it is.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:45 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:So what I’ve gleaned from this thread is that we have to respect individuals feelings on the subject, i.e. peoples right to either support and like the rules or not. So why the f**k are you still arguing about it? Respect each other’s right to feel how they like on the topic and move on.

Yet you felt the need to post this. Rolling Eyes


Yes, of course. If you’re demanding that people respect how you feel then it has to work the other way. So if other people are fine with it then respect that too. Don’t tell people they’re wrong if you don’t like people telling you you’re wrong. Because there is no right answer here. Only opinion.

Here you go again, although I thought you had me on ignore. Rolling Eyes

I have not demanded anybody has to respect me, I have also said that no rules are being broken, and no nation is doing anything wrong, I just want people to admit that the home nations are the worst of all the tier one nations for exploiting these rules. I have not once told anybody they are wrong either.

But of course as always, I will not hold my breath for an apology off you. You just like to go against the grain with anything I say on here, because its me typing it.

ce la vie. OK

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:46 pm

Pot Hale wrote:It’s quite possible for an uncapped player to switch for the simple reason of playing rugby and getting paid to do it, if there are limited opportunities to do so where they live.  

LD provided a sort of definition of a project player in an earlier post.  Not sure I’d agree with it entirely.   It has tended to be a label slapped on any uncapped player who moves to another country irrespective of the reasons they may have done so.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster have quotas on NIE foreign players and nominating special project players who could qualify for Ireland.  Connacht don’t have project players per se, they just recruit within their budgetary limits.  

If you look at some Irish examples of capped foreign players, I’d query whether test rugby opportunity was being “dangled” since it’s an option open to any uncapped player playing in another country.  And the player was being sought by the province to fill a gap for them.  

Following the IRFU Player Succession Strategy in 2012, hiring became a bit more focused and selective on who was allowed come in based on playing position.

That strategy has now largely been abandoned with the shift to developing domestic pathways and identifying/developing already Irish-qualified talent.   The first question every time from Nucifora is do you really need him, why can’t you get an IQ player in?

There’s still a few “3-year” uncapped players in the pipeline, such as
Tom McCartney hooker at Connacht, residency qualified last year but at 33/34 is too old.
(Hie former team-mate, Jake Heenan, qualified two years ago, and left for Bristol this season.)
Louis Ludik, is seeing out his days at Ulster, and although RQ won’t feature.
Ditto Wiehahn Herbst as an Ulster prop.
Tyler Bleyendaal, outhalf at Munster is already RQ but has had an unfortunate string of injuries and is unlikely to displace any of the current 10s and upcoming ones.  
Gibson-Park, 9 at Leinster is a test possibility after June 2019 when his current contract ends.
Ditto Jean Kleyn, Munster lock.
Rhys Marshall, Munster hooker is another, who qualifies in 2020.
James Lowe, at Leinster, interestingly, is English qualified through his father/gf and wouldn’t RQ for Ireland until end Nov 2020.   His current contract runs until June 2020.  

As for some of the previous “project players” as dubbed by media and commentators/fans:

Rodney Ah You arrived in Connacht as a short-term injury cover.  That’s why he initially shifted.  Nothing more, that was it.
Quinn Roux got a one year development contract with Leinster that didn’t work out.  He decided to try Connacht.
Nathan White openly laughs when asked if he was a project player.  As he said himself, he tried out at Leinster and it didn’t work out.  He and his family decided to see if they’d move to Galway just to get a contract.

That's all well and good Pot, and I respect some of what you have said here. But I then have a problem with this:-

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/watch-irish-rugby-looking-import-foreign-players/


Why do the IRFU have a strategy for this type of thing ?

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Biltong on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I obviously do struggle to follow you biltong but no need to swear. You pointed to the beast who I assume is mtawarira as acceptable and not a poach?

My final word on this as you are tiring, Beast was actually not scouted by SA, he came over with his brother, not sure whether his whole family came at the time, he then signed a contract with Sharks.

However, my view on him playing for SA is exactly the same as with any other, you should play for your country.

He has made a great success in SA, he loves this country, I question his childhood dreams as well, who did he want to play for when he grew up?

I don't know, but suspect it would have been Zim.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:48 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sounds like you are an ala carte Dutch citizen which I'm not sure is exactly what's expected. You are Irish and Dutch, you agreed to it when you accepted Dutch citizenship. Same way I am an Irish Australian.

Right.

I met and fell in love and subsequently got married to a Dutch Lady. I moved to Holland and took up residency and became a Dutch citizen. I am fully integrated into the society. That said, I remain Irish even if I do share a dual nationality. I simply would not support or represent another country as I am Irish born and bred.

I am not sure how you can get these things confused...

Just continue your personal attacks though chum. thumbsup


Last edited by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:48 pm

Ah you've changed it to tier 1 nations now rather than everyone. Think ireland if we are counting rhem as a home nation would be pretty ok on that in general. If we're talking lineage and residency you'd see a few in the other teams. Not sure what aus are like on that or new zealand to be fair. What are the numbers lord?

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:49 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:You switched countries. I think its more unethical of you to have accepted Dutch citizenship without accepting what it means to be Dutch.

Change Eiribilly to CJ Stander, and change Dutch to Irish and you can have the same question, which you reckon is OK. Rolling Eyes

I think you have unsurprisingly missed the point. Stander is willing to accept everything that is involved in being Irish, Eirebilly is not willing to accept being Dutch yet is willing to accept the benefits of being a Dutch citizen. BIG difference!!!

How do you know this? You have no idea who I am.

I'm basing that on your own admissions.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Biltong on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Biltong wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Unless it benefits you like mtawarira?  Then apparently acceptable.

For the last time, WTF does Mtwarira have to do with how I feel?

Do you struggle to comprehend?

He is very sapping isn't he ?

Yes, deliberately tiring and sapping, debating with him is draining.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:50 pm

Thanks for that biltong. Exactly the same as any south African joining an English club.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:50 pm

That's snide however biltong. Surely you're better than that?

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Biltong on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:52 pm

I am not sure I am better than that, I can run out of patience, and have with you.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:53 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:

I'm basing that on your own admissions.

Aha, so without asking for information (of which I have actually provided but you chose to ignore) you make an assumption of who and what I am.

That's a very clever and mature way to approach things.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:55 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:

Sounds like you are an ala carte Dutch citizen which I'm not sure is exactly what's expected. You are Irish and Dutch, you agreed to it when you accepted Dutch citizenship. Same way I am an Irish Australian.

Right.

I met and fell in love and subsequently got married to a Dutch Lady. I moved to Holland and took up residency and became a Dutch citizen. I am fully integrated into the society. That said, I remain Irish even if I do share a dual nationality. I simply would not support or represent another country as I am Irish born and bred.

I am not sure how you can get these things confused...

Just continue your personal attacks though chum. thumbsup

I totally understand but I think Stander unconditionally accepting his new nationality is much more ethical than what you have done. It sounds that you are only willing to accept being Dutch when it suits you and I don't think that's in the spirit of the naturalisation process. Like I said in modern life we are faced with moral dilemmas all the time so I wouldn't think less of you but if you think Stander is unethical I suggest you first hold a mirror to yourself first.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:58 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:So what I’ve gleaned from this thread is that we have to respect individuals feelings on the subject, i.e. peoples right to either support and like the rules or not. So why the f**k are you still arguing about it? Respect each other’s right to feel how they like on the topic and move on.

Yet you felt the need to post this. Rolling Eyes


Yes, of course. If you’re demanding that people respect how you feel then it has to work the other way. So if other people are fine with it then respect that too. Don’t tell people they’re wrong if you don’t like people telling you you’re wrong. Because there is no right answer here. Only opinion.

Here you go again, although I thought you had me on ignore. Rolling Eyes

I have not demanded anybody has to respect me, I have also said that no rules are being broken, and no nation is doing anything wrong, I just want people to admit that the home nations are the worst of all the tier one nations for exploiting these rules. I have not once told anybody they are wrong either.

But of course as always, I will not hold my breath for an apology off you. You just like to go against the grain with anything I say on here, because its me typing it.

ce la vie. OK

LD, firstly yes you are on ignore. But it still tells me when you post so I just have to press a button to see it, which I have done on this thread.

And, apologise? I wasn’t quoting you originally. My first message was to everyone. It was Biltong that talked about how he ‘feels’ actually and how others shouldn’t tell him how to feel. My point about respecting the opinions of others was aimed at all the posters, including you. Questioning people’s morals and ethics then demanding people shouldn’t tell them how to feel or behave is a double standards.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah you've changed it to tier 1 nations now rather than everyone. Think ireland if we are counting rhem as a home nation would be pretty ok on that in general. If we're talking lineage and residency you'd see a few in the other teams. Not sure what aus are like on that or new zealand to be fair. What are the numbers lord?

New Zealand is a very grey area for this sort of thing, because there is more born and bred New Zealanders, with Samoan, Tongan, Fijian heritage/lineage than there are living in said countries.

They can chose to represent whoever they like, it's quite similar to the UK, there are thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people living in England, Scotland, Ireland who have Welsh heritage/lineage, and vice versa, this is where it becomes messy.

I also know that it's the same for South Africa and the countries that share it's borders.

The thing that I cannot get passed, is when a person has never lived in the country, yet because his grandparents moved there 80 years ago, he is fair game. Or the residency rule, I would be quite happy if that was scrapped, altogether. I would cut it back to parents, and that's it.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:58 pm

Take Ruan Pienaar for an example. Played in Ulster, loved the place and by all accounts was happy to settle down there and raise his family there. He also remained fiercely patriotic to SA and continued to represent them.

You see, you can live in another country, integrate and function as a valued member of that society but still remain proud of where you are from.

Its not a difficult concept.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 4:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:It’s quite possible for an uncapped player to switch for the simple reason of playing rugby and getting paid to do it, if there are limited opportunities to do so where they live.  

LD provided a sort of definition of a project player in an earlier post.  Not sure I’d agree with it entirely.   It has tended to be a label slapped on any uncapped player who moves to another country irrespective of the reasons they may have done so.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster have quotas on NIE foreign players and nominating special project players who could qualify for Ireland.  Connacht don’t have project players per se, they just recruit within their budgetary limits.  

If you look at some Irish examples of capped foreign players, I’d query whether test rugby opportunity was being “dangled” since it’s an option open to any uncapped player playing in another country.  And the player was being sought by the province to fill a gap for them.  

Following the IRFU Player Succession Strategy in 2012, hiring became a bit more focused and selective on who was allowed come in based on playing position.

That strategy has now largely been abandoned with the shift to developing domestic pathways and identifying/developing already Irish-qualified talent.   The first question every time from Nucifora is do you really need him, why can’t you get an IQ player in?

There’s still a few “3-year” uncapped players in the pipeline, such as
Tom McCartney hooker at Connacht, residency qualified last year but at 33/34 is too old.
(Hie former team-mate, Jake Heenan, qualified two years ago, and left for Bristol this season.)
Louis Ludik, is seeing out his days at Ulster, and although RQ won’t feature.
Ditto Wiehahn Herbst as an Ulster prop.
Tyler Bleyendaal, outhalf at Munster is already RQ but has had an unfortunate string of injuries and is unlikely to displace any of the current 10s and upcoming ones.  
Gibson-Park, 9 at Leinster is a test possibility after June 2019 when his current contract ends.
Ditto Jean Kleyn, Munster lock.
Rhys Marshall, Munster hooker is another, who qualifies in 2020.
James Lowe, at Leinster, interestingly, is English qualified through his father/gf and wouldn’t RQ for Ireland until end Nov 2020.   His current contract runs until June 2020.  

As for some of the previous “project players” as dubbed by media and commentators/fans:

Rodney Ah You arrived in Connacht as a short-term injury cover.  That’s why he initially shifted.  Nothing more, that was it.
Quinn Roux got a one year development contract with Leinster that didn’t work out.  He decided to try Connacht.
Nathan White openly laughs when asked if he was a project player.  As he said himself, he tried out at Leinster and it didn’t work out.  He and his family decided to see if they’d move to Galway just to get a contract.

That's all well and good Pot, and I respect some of what you have said here. But I then have a problem with this:-

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/watch-irish-rugby-looking-import-foreign-players/


Why do the IRFU have a strategy for this type of thing ?

What do you mean by “respect some of what I have said”. Which bits do you respect and which bits do you not respect?

The Rugby Pass article you posted was written over a year ago, and is out of date - written by some amateur like most of its articles. It says nothing beyond mentioning the IQ Rugby programme. I referred to that IQ Rugby Programme when I wrote: “That strategy has now largely been abandoned with the shift to developing domestic pathways and identifying/developing already Irish-qualified talent.   The first question every time from Nucifora is do you really need him, why can’t you get an IQ player in?”

So are you saying you have a problem with Irish Rugby seeking out and helping to develop already Irish-qualified players?
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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:00 pm

eirebilly wrote:Take Ruan Pienaar for an example. Played in Ulster, loved the place and by all accounts was happy to settle down there and raise his family there. He also remained fiercely patriotic to SA and continued to represent them.

You see, you can live in another country, integrate and function as a valued member of that society but still remain proud of where you are from.

Its not a difficult concept.

He was already capped by SA before he arrived in Ulster. Maybe he would represent Ireland if SA was off the table. He isn't an Irish citizen anyway as far as I know so its not a great example.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:01 pm

The Oracle wrote:Questioning people’s morals and ethics then demanding people shouldn’t tell them how to feel or behave is a double standards.

But I have not done this though, so why are you accusing me of this ? Can you please explain yourself ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:02 pm

It can be annoying when I pick up your points that poaching is poaching except when the players make their own decisions I'll acknowledge thy biltong.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:02 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:It’s quite possible for an uncapped player to switch for the simple reason of playing rugby and getting paid to do it, if there are limited opportunities to do so where they live.  

LD provided a sort of definition of a project player in an earlier post.  Not sure I’d agree with it entirely.   It has tended to be a label slapped on any uncapped player who moves to another country irrespective of the reasons they may have done so.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster have quotas on NIE foreign players and nominating special project players who could qualify for Ireland.  Connacht don’t have project players per se, they just recruit within their budgetary limits.  

If you look at some Irish examples of capped foreign players, I’d query whether test rugby opportunity was being “dangled” since it’s an option open to any uncapped player playing in another country.  And the player was being sought by the province to fill a gap for them.  

Following the IRFU Player Succession Strategy in 2012, hiring became a bit more focused and selective on who was allowed come in based on playing position.

That strategy has now largely been abandoned with the shift to developing domestic pathways and identifying/developing already Irish-qualified talent.   The first question every time from Nucifora is do you really need him, why can’t you get an IQ player in?

There’s still a few “3-year” uncapped players in the pipeline, such as
Tom McCartney hooker at Connacht, residency qualified last year but at 33/34 is too old.
(Hie former team-mate, Jake Heenan, qualified two years ago, and left for Bristol this season.)
Louis Ludik, is seeing out his days at Ulster, and although RQ won’t feature.
Ditto Wiehahn Herbst as an Ulster prop.
Tyler Bleyendaal, outhalf at Munster is already RQ but has had an unfortunate string of injuries and is unlikely to displace any of the current 10s and upcoming ones.  
Gibson-Park, 9 at Leinster is a test possibility after June 2019 when his current contract ends.
Ditto Jean Kleyn, Munster lock.
Rhys Marshall, Munster hooker is another, who qualifies in 2020.
James Lowe, at Leinster, interestingly, is English qualified through his father/gf and wouldn’t RQ for Ireland until end Nov 2020.   His current contract runs until June 2020.  

As for some of the previous “project players” as dubbed by media and commentators/fans:

Rodney Ah You arrived in Connacht as a short-term injury cover.  That’s why he initially shifted.  Nothing more, that was it.
Quinn Roux got a one year development contract with Leinster that didn’t work out.  He decided to try Connacht.
Nathan White openly laughs when asked if he was a project player.  As he said himself, he tried out at Leinster and it didn’t work out.  He and his family decided to see if they’d move to Galway just to get a contract.

That's all well and good Pot, and I respect some of what you have said here. But I then have a problem with this:-

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/watch-irish-rugby-looking-import-foreign-players/


Why do the IRFU have a strategy for this type of thing ?

What do you mean by “respect some of what I have said”. Which bits do you respect and which bits do you not respect?

The Rugby Pass article you posted was written over a year ago, and is out of date - written by some amateur like most of its articles.   It says nothing beyond mentioning the IQ Rugby programme.  I referred to that IQ Rugby Programme when I wrote: “That strategy has now largely been abandoned with the shift to developing domestic pathways and identifying/developing already Irish-qualified talent.   The first question every time from Nucifora is do you really need him, why can’t you get an IQ player in?”

So are you saying you have a problem with Irish Rugby seeking out and helping to develop already Irish-qualified players?

I think LD realises that the article he posted was a very poor choice of article to base is flaky opinions around. It is a really dumb article by someone not unlike LD who literally hasn't a sausage what he is talking about.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:04 pm

Pot Hale wrote:So are you saying you have a problem with Irish Rugby seeking out and helping to develop already Irish-qualified players?

What do you mean by already Irish qualified ? Players that are from Ireland ?

Its not just Ireland, its all the home nations. They have scouts everywhere looking for this type of thing, lets not pretend they don't.

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Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:05 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Take Ruan Pienaar for an example. Played in Ulster, loved the place and by all accounts was happy to settle down there and raise his family there. He also remained fiercely patriotic to SA and continued to represent them.

You see, you can live in another country, integrate and function as a valued member of that society but still remain proud of where you are from.

Its not a difficult concept.

He was already capped by SA before he arrived in Ulster. Maybe he would represent Ireland if SA was off the table. He isn't an Irish citizen anyway as far as I know so its not a great example.

Its the concept, the concept...

You can live in another country, integrate and be happy to spend the rest of your life there raising your family but yet still remain patriotic to your country of birth.

If you have kids there, then they will probably have more affinity with the country they were born and raised in as opposed to the country you were born and raised in.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:06 pm

So from that point lord you acknowledge there's shades of grey within lineage etc. Surely there is some as you partially suggest with geography in that someone born in aus to an English parent probably won't have the chance to visit england as easily as someone based in Wales but should that really alter the view of how they qualify? That 4or me is a grey area but merely due to the nature of the world and that historical geography.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:06 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I think LD realises that the article he posted was a very poor choice of article to base is flaky opinions around. It is a really dumb article by someone not unlike LD who literally hasn't a sausage what he is talking about.

Yes because the home nations sides do not have any people from other countries playing for them. Rolling Eyes

Never mind, this debate is getting too personal now. I'm out.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Questioning people’s morals and ethics then demanding people shouldn’t tell them how to feel or behave is a double standards.

But I have not done this though, so why are you accusing me of this ? Can you please explain yourself ?

I’m not accusing you. Stop selectively quoting me. Read the sentence before the one you quoted. That sets the context for the sentence you then quoted.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:11 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Take Ruan Pienaar for an example. Played in Ulster, loved the place and by all accounts was happy to settle down there and raise his family there. He also remained fiercely patriotic to SA and continued to represent them.

You see, you can live in another country, integrate and function as a valued member of that society but still remain proud of where you are from.

Its not a difficult concept.

He was already capped by SA before he arrived in Ulster. Maybe he would represent Ireland if SA was off the table. He isn't an Irish citizen anyway as far as I know so its not a great example.

Its the concept, the concept...

You can live in another country, integrate and be happy to spend the rest of your life there raising your family but yet still remain patriotic to your country of birth.

If you have kids there, then they will probably have more affinity with the country they were born and raised in as opposed to the country you were born and raised in.


Most nationalities that become naturalised Dutch citizens have to give up their nationality, they are pretty serious about it over there. That said I don't see why you cant see yourself as Irish as well as Dutch and if by chance you were a gifted rugby player and received offers from the IRFU and the DRU (I made that up) then of course its fine to go with the IRFU's offer.

However, if you only received an offer from the DRU and you turned it down on the basis that you see yourself as Irish and therefore by the process of elimination not Dutch then I do believe it is unethical for you to accept Dutch citizenship. I believe that's something you should consider before calling Stander unethical.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:13 pm

Lord starts to insult people then ducks out as it's too personal.hey ho.

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Post by Biltong on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:16 pm

eirebilly wrote:Take Ruan Pienaar for an example. Played in Ulster, loved the place and by all accounts was happy to settle down there and raise his family there. He also remained fiercely patriotic to SA and continued to represent them.

You see, you can live in another country, integrate and function as a valued member of that society but still remain proud of where you are from.

Its not a difficult concept.

Exactly
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Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah you've changed it to tier 1 nations now rather than everyone. Think ireland if we are counting rhem as a home nation would be pretty ok on that in general. If we're talking lineage and residency you'd see a few in the other teams. Not sure what aus are like on that or new zealand to be fair. What are the numbers lord?

New Zealand is a very grey area for this sort of thing, because there is more born and bred New Zealanders, with Samoan, Tongan, Fijian heritage/lineage than there are living in said countries.

They can chose to represent whoever they like, it's quite similar to the UK, there are thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people living in England, Scotland, Ireland who have Welsh heritage/lineage, and vice versa, this is where it becomes messy.

I also know that it's the same for South Africa and the countries that share it's borders.

The thing that I cannot get passed, is when a person has never lived in the country, yet because his grandparents moved there 80 years ago, he is fair game. Or the residency rule, I would be quite happy if that was scrapped, altogether. I would cut it back to parents, and that's it.

I honestly can’t believe that you would post all these posts, have all this strong opinion, and then come out with this absolute howler right at the end! So now, according to you, someone from New Zealand who has never stepped foot in Wales, didn’t go to school in Wales, played all his rugby in NZ.... it’s ok with you now that this guy can turn out for Wales because his mum or dad is welsh?! Anscombe for example. You’ve been arguing against that all along! This is exactly the sort of thing these scouts are out there looking for - people with parentage from one of the ‘home nations’. You’ve said you’re against it but now that’s what you would cut it back to??? This is nuts even for you!
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Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:So are you saying you have a problem with Irish Rugby seeking out and helping to develop already Irish-qualified players?

What do you mean by already Irish qualified ? Players that are from Ireland ?

Its not just Ireland, its all the home nations. They have scouts everywhere looking for this type of thing, lets not pretend they don't.

The IQ Rugby programme In liaison with the Irish Exiles Branch in GB is designed to identify Irish-qualified players playing outside Ireland and help develop them where possible and open up opportunities to play in Ireland, where possible.

Kieran Marmion, Kieran Treadwell, Alex Wootton, Sam Arnold, Mike Haley and Will Addison are all relatively recent examples.  All were born in England with Irish parents or grandparents.  

Addison, whose mother is from Enniskillen, had a clause in his Sale contract that if an Irish opportunity arose, he’d be able to move.  Arnold, whose mother is from Wexford and grandparents from Cork, wanted to play for Ireland and after school moved to Ulster academy at 17. He now plays for Munster.

Both have been named in Joe Schmidt’s Autumn squad announced today.

Should they not be picked?


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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:19 pm

Biltong wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Take Ruan Pienaar for an example. Played in Ulster, loved the place and by all accounts was happy to settle down there and raise his family there. He also remained fiercely patriotic to SA and continued to represent them.

You see, you can live in another country, integrate and function as a valued member of that society but still remain proud of where you are from.

Its not a difficult concept.

Exactly

Eh no. Piennar may well have played for Ireland if he wasnt already capped. We will never know.

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Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:22 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:


Most nationalities that become naturalised Dutch citizens have to give up their nationality, they are pretty serious about it over there. That said I don't see why you cant see yourself as Irish as well as Dutch and if by chance you were a gifted rugby player and received offers from the IRFU and the DRU (I made that up) then of course its fine to go with the IRFU's offer.

However, if you only received an offer from the DRU and you turned it down on the basis that you see yourself as Irish and therefore by the process of elimination not Dutch then I do believe it is unethical for you to accept Dutch citizenship.

Well I have lived in Holland for 20+ years and retain my dual nationality. I have never claimed to deny my Dutch citizenship, that is what you created based on nothing but an assumption.

I grew up in Ireland, learnt to play Rugby in Ireland and if I was good enough and the NRB offered me to represent them then I would not do it as my dream has always been to represent Ireland. If you think that is me being unethical in acceptance of Dutch citizenship then fair enough, not much I can do about that.


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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:26 pm

The Oracle wrote:I honestly can’t believe that you would post all these posts, have all this strong opinion, and then come out with this absolute howler right at the end! So now, according to you, someone from New Zealand who has never stepped foot in Wales, didn’t go to school in Wales, played all his rugby in NZ.... it’s ok with you now that this guy can turn out for Wales because his mum or dad is welsh?! Anscombe for example. You’ve been arguing against that all along! This is exactly the sort of thing these scouts are out there looking for - people with parentage from one of the ‘home nations’. You’ve said you’re against it but now that’s what you would cut it back to??? This is nuts even for you!


I am trying to stay off this topic before it gets too much.

But please show me where I have said what you are claiming ?

Again, and again you accuse me of all sorts on here, but you can never back it up. I preferred it when you had me on ignore.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:32 pm

4 58 in a reply to me lord.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:33 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Should they not be picked?

Why shouldn't they be ? Their Irish aren't they ?

This is what I have an issue with:-

David Nucifora and the IRFU have set up a dedicated ‘IQ Rugby’ programme for overseas players. The programme launched this year aims to combat the recent rule changes and scout out potential future Irish stars playing their rugby overseas.


Why would they need to combat any rule change ?

What do they mean by potential future Irish stars ?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:41 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:


Most nationalities that become naturalised Dutch citizens have to give up their nationality, they are pretty serious about it over there. That said I don't see why you cant see yourself as Irish as well as Dutch and if by chance you were a gifted rugby player and received offers from the IRFU and the DRU (I made that up) then of course its fine to go with the IRFU's offer.

However, if you only received an offer from the DRU and you turned it down on the basis that you see yourself as Irish and therefore by the process of elimination not Dutch then I do believe it is unethical for you to accept Dutch citizenship.

Well I have lived in Holland for 20+ years and retain my dual nationality. I have never claimed to deny my Dutch citizenship, that is what you created based on nothing but an assumption.

I grew up in Ireland, learnt to play Rugby in Ireland and if I was good enough and the NRB offered me to represent them then I would not do it as my dream has always been to represent Ireland. If you think that is me being unethical in acceptance of Dutch citizenship then fair enough, not much I can do about that.

Yep I think thats more unethical than Stander playing for Ireland. Dont accept citizenship if you are going to deny it when it suits you.

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Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:43 pm

Wow, I really have no words left...

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