Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

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Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Biltong on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 8:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continue here about the greatness of NH rugby players, the money the clubs have, the greatness of the SH rugby players and the leak to the north.

Other topic is full

Etc.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I honestly can’t believe that you would post all these posts, have all this strong opinion, and then come out with this absolute howler right at the end! So now, according to you, someone from New Zealand who has never stepped foot in Wales, didn’t go to school in Wales, played all his rugby in NZ.... it’s ok with you now that this guy can turn out for Wales because his mum or dad is welsh?! Anscombe for example. You’ve been arguing against that all along! This is exactly the sort of thing these scouts are out there looking for - people with parentage from one of the ‘home nations’. You’ve said you’re against it but now that’s what you would cut it back to??? This is nuts even for you!


I am trying to stay off this topic before it gets too much.

But please show me where I have said what you are claiming ?

Again, and again you accuse me of all sorts on here, but you can never back it up. I preferred it when you had me on ignore.


I highlighted your comment in my post. You said:

“I would cut it back to parents, and that's it”. So you’re ok now with people playing for a country based on parents being from that country. Yet right before it you said that the thing you cannot get past (i.e. what you don’t agree with) is people having never been to a country and then playing for them. But that’s exactly what you get sometimes when you allow the parent rule. We had it with Anscombe. So are you against it or not? Is Anscombe not ok with you as he’d never been here before? Or is he ok with you because of the parent thing?
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:48 pm

eirebilly wrote: If you think that is me being unethical in acceptance of Dutch citizenship then fair enough, not much I can do about that.

The Dutch can try you for treason for a start! And they should!

"Why won't you play for us?"
"Because you.........................."
"Because we're not good enough, is that it?!"
"No, because you..................."
"Coz we're alright to earn money out of but nothing else! That's why! Say it!"
"Will you give me a bloody chance to........"
"To throw some more insults our way after all that we've done for you!"
"I won't play for you coz you never...................."
"Apologised for auld Willie the Orange!!!! Christ you Iri.................. I mean you Dutch have long memories! Get over it. You lost at the Boyne and that's it!"
".... you never asked me, asswholes!!"
"Only if you March down the Garvaghy road with a bowler"

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 5:55 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I honestly can’t believe that you would post all these posts, have all this strong opinion, and then come out with this absolute howler right at the end! So now, according to you, someone from New Zealand who has never stepped foot in Wales, didn’t go to school in Wales, played all his rugby in NZ.... it’s ok with you now that this guy can turn out for Wales because his mum or dad is welsh?! Anscombe for example. You’ve been arguing against that all along! This is exactly the sort of thing these scouts are out there looking for - people with parentage from one of the ‘home nations’. You’ve said you’re against it but now that’s what you would cut it back to??? This is nuts even for you!


I am trying to stay off this topic before it gets too much.

But please show me where I have said what you are claiming ?

Again, and again you accuse me of all sorts on here, but you can never back it up. I preferred it when you had me on ignore.


I highlighted your comment in my post.  You said:

“I would cut it back to parents, and that's it”. So you’re ok now with people playing for a country based on parents being from that country.  Yet right before it you said that the thing you cannot get past (i.e. what you don’t agree with) is people having never been to a country and then playing for them. But that’s exactly what you get sometimes when you allow the parent rule. We had it with Anscombe. So are you against it or not? Is Anscombe not ok with you as he’d never been here before? Or is he ok with you because of the parent thing?

I think its pretty obvious hes implying that if the rule has to be there at least cut it back to parents born, probably as a start to removing it altogether, so that theres not the absurd incidence of some distant link to anyone living there eighty years ago or similar. This rules clearly favours the six nations countries who left for the SH in far bigger numbers for a better life over that period.

You wont find many kiwis qualifying for NZ for players brought up in Europe where the grandparents arrived in Europe 80 years ago. The thought of that is a joke. Yet the reverse has occurred many times, Shields I believe something similar.

Pretty obvious who wants the rule retained. Money, residence, projects, the lot, all favour the NH in attracting overseas players massively over the reverse, the cumulative effect the reason for the demise of oz and SA rankings, and to an increasing extent, NZs dominance.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Should they not be picked?

Why shouldn't they be ? Their Irish aren't they ?

This is what I have an issue with:-

David Nucifora and the IRFU have set up a dedicated ‘IQ Rugby’ programme for overseas players. The programme launched this year aims to combat the recent rule changes and scout out potential future Irish stars playing their rugby overseas.


Why would they need to combat any rule change ?

What do they mean by potential future Irish stars ?

You do realise these are the words of an amateur journalist? It’s their angle or slant on the story.
As for potential future Irish stars, I just gave you 8 examples from IQ Rugby including Addison and Arnold.

This will give you an idea of how it works - http://www.irishrugby.ie/provincial/exiles/screening.php
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:03 pm

eirebilly wrote:Wow, I really have no words left...



I suspect that is because deep down you know Im right. Would you or have you played rugby for a Dutch club or would that compromise your sense of identity re Munster?

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:09 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Should they not be picked?

Why shouldn't they be ? Their Irish aren't they ?

This is what I have an issue with:-

David Nucifora and the IRFU have set up a dedicated ‘IQ Rugby’ programme for overseas players. The programme launched this year aims to combat the recent rule changes and scout out potential future Irish stars playing their rugby overseas.


Why would they need to combat any rule change ?

What do they mean by potential future Irish stars ?

You do realise these are the words of an amateur journalist?    It’s their angle or slant on the story.  
As for potential future Irish stars, I just gave you 8 examples from IQ Rugby including Addison and Arnold.  

This will give you an idea of how it works - http://www.irishrugby.ie/provincial/exiles/screening.php

Hmm, interesting Pot, we have nothing like that here. A formal programme designed to hunt out overseas born players to Ireland. Wonder how the ratio compares to Irish born players, or more importantly, how it will compare as the program strengthens.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:11 pm

Let's call billy's idea Diversity of the Mind?

That's the 'Diversity' bit that keeps getting missed out on when people champion the idea that nobody is from anywhere really and that we all belong everywhere if we want to.

Some people's minds think differently and don't agree with that concept so much.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by eirebilly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:11 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Wow, I really have no words left...



I suspect that is because deep down you know Im right. Would you or have you played rugby for a Dutch club or would that compromise your sense of identity re Munster?

No, you are not right. I would and have played club rugby in Holland, that is a completely different kettle of fish and i have clearly stated that in this thread.

I am sorry you cannot understand the concept of my personal views on the matter.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:12 pm

Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I honestly can’t believe that you would post all these posts, have all this strong opinion, and then come out with this absolute howler right at the end! So now, according to you, someone from New Zealand who has never stepped foot in Wales, didn’t go to school in Wales, played all his rugby in NZ.... it’s ok with you now that this guy can turn out for Wales because his mum or dad is welsh?! Anscombe for example. You’ve been arguing against that all along! This is exactly the sort of thing these scouts are out there looking for - people with parentage from one of the ‘home nations’. You’ve said you’re against it but now that’s what you would cut it back to??? This is nuts even for you!


I am trying to stay off this topic before it gets too much.

But please show me where I have said what you are claiming ?

Again, and again you accuse me of all sorts on here, but you can never back it up. I preferred it when you had me on ignore.


I highlighted your comment in my post.  You said:

“I would cut it back to parents, and that's it”. So you’re ok now with people playing for a country based on parents being from that country.  Yet right before it you said that the thing you cannot get past (i.e. what you don’t agree with) is people having never been to a country and then playing for them. But that’s exactly what you get sometimes when you allow the parent rule. We had it with Anscombe. So are you against it or not? Is Anscombe not ok with you as he’d never been here before? Or is he ok with you because of the parent thing?

I think its pretty obvious hes implying that if the rule has to be there at least cut it back to parents born, probably as a start to removing it altogether, so that theres not the absurd incidence of some distant link to anyone living there eighty years ago or similar. This rules clearly favours the six nations countries who left for the SH in far bigger numbers for a better life over that period.

You wont find many kiwis qualifying for NZ for players brought up in Europe where the grandparents arrived in Europe 80 years ago. The thought of that is a joke. Yet the reverse has occurred many times, Shields I believe something similar.

Pretty obvious who wants the rule retained. Money, residence, projects, the lot, all favour the NH in attracting overseas players massively over the reverse, the cumulative effect the reason for the demise of oz and SA rankings, and to an increasing extent, NZs dominance.

Thank you Taylorman, thanks for explaining it for me, I now do not have to type it out for him.

I cannot get passed it, but I can respect the rules, but for me, as myself, in the singular, I cannot get passed it, so if I was the best rugby player in the world, but I lived in New Zealand for 5 years, I would not want to play for New Zealand, because I am Welsh.

That does not mean I am saying everybody should be the same as me.

The thing is, he comes on here with the creepy desire to debunk me, or make me look stupid, or what ever. He accuses me of all sorts but never backs it up.

Yet he has the bare faced cheek to use "the oracle" as his username. Whistle

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:14 pm

Taylorman wrote:

Hmm, interesting Pot, we have nothing like that here. A formal programme designed to hunt out overseas born players to Ireland. Wonder how the ratio compares to Irish born players, or more importantly, how it will compare as the program strengthens.

Wait a century or so and you might see it happen.

In one century most people go one way, in another century...well, there's few places left to go, so they go back the other way. When you run out of players and have many decades of Kiwi Irish or Kiwi European settlement..........then come back to us on that score Taylor. But don't ring me...I don't think I'll be around to pick up the phone Wink

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:20 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Should they not be picked?

Why shouldn't they be ? Their Irish aren't they ?

This is what I have an issue with:-

David Nucifora and the IRFU have set up a dedicated ‘IQ Rugby’ programme for overseas players. The programme launched this year aims to combat the recent rule changes and scout out potential future Irish stars playing their rugby overseas.


Why would they need to combat any rule change ?

What do they mean by potential future Irish stars ?

You do realise these are the words of an amateur journalist?    It’s their angle or slant on the story.  
As for potential future Irish stars, I just gave you 8 examples from IQ Rugby including Addison and Arnold.  

This will give you an idea of how it works - http://www.irishrugby.ie/provincial/exiles/screening.php

Hmm, interesting Pot, we have nothing like that here. A formal programme designed to hunt out overseas born players to Ireland. Wonder how the ratio compares to Irish born players, or more importantly, how it will compare as the program strengthens.


What about lads in Samoa being offered a scholarship for NZ schools? Is this true? Sure I read something about it. I’m not criticising it or questioning it. Just asking if it’s something that happens? If so, how are they spotted? Do they put together a film of themselves and send it around schools in NZ hoping to get picked up?
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:22 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Wow, I really have no words left...



I suspect that is because deep down you know Im right. Would you or have you played rugby for a Dutch club or would that compromise your sense of identity re Munster?

No, you are not right. I would and have played club rugby in Holland, that is a completely different kettle of fish and i have clearly stated that in this thread.

I am sorry you cannot understand the concept of my personal views on the matter.


Seems kind of inconsistent.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Brendan on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 6:40 pm

Biltong wrote:
Brendan wrote:If SA players didn't have the exception for European Competitions would they be so sought after. If you could only play 3 players from AUS, NZ & SA i think SA players value would go down

If the value of SA according to you is less valued, then why are there so many playing in Europe?

And don't tell me they are cheaper labour, that is just cowpat.

So right now in the European Cups you could put out a 23 of just South Africans and that's ok. But if you had a 23 of 19 SA and 4 NZ/AUS that would not be ok. Because you can only have 3 in your match day. Last year James Lowe sat out many games because of it.

If the rule also applied to SA the number getting picked would drop. 40 teams each have 4 players 1 NZ, 1 AUS & 2SA. Because you can have unlimited numbers of SA and islands they all get hired. If more thought went in only the best players would go only

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Biltong on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:04 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Wow, I really have no words left...



I suspect that is because deep down you know Im right. Would you or have you played rugby for a Dutch club or would that compromise your sense of identity re Munster?

No, you are not right. I would and have played club rugby in Holland, that is a completely different kettle of fish and i have clearly stated that in this thread.

I am sorry you cannot understand the concept of my personal views on the matter.


You are wasting your time, the concept of tradition and pride in ones country of birth is foreign to the yonger generations, and it seems it has infected most these days.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:09 pm

Id imagine we are about the same age Billtong. Tradition and pride are fine but rugby is a sport and I dont think its meant to be taken as seriously as you seem to think. If you are too rigid with identities you run the risk of become a fanitic.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Brendan on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:22 pm

The Irish overseas program is based on the concept that there are 70m Irish in the world. As only 6m live on the island we need people to bring them back. Many an Irish person was just unlucky to be born in stables and not on the promised land.

It would be unfair of us to not to go get them. David N is like Moses going all over the world telling the Unions to let our people go or damnation and financial ruin will be sent by Joe.

LET OUR PEOPLE GO

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:25 pm

Ha!

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:26 pm

Well said

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:33 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Should they not be picked?

Why shouldn't they be ? Their Irish aren't they ?

This is what I have an issue with:-

David Nucifora and the IRFU have set up a dedicated ‘IQ Rugby’ programme for overseas players. The programme launched this year aims to combat the recent rule changes and scout out potential future Irish stars playing their rugby overseas.


Why would they need to combat any rule change ?

What do they mean by potential future Irish stars ?

You do realise these are the words of an amateur journalist?    It’s their angle or slant on the story.  
As for potential future Irish stars, I just gave you 8 examples from IQ Rugby including Addison and Arnold.  

This will give you an idea of how it works - http://www.irishrugby.ie/provincial/exiles/screening.php

Hmm, interesting Pot, we have nothing like that here. A formal programme designed to hunt out overseas born players to Ireland. Wonder how the ratio compares to Irish born players, or more importantly, how it will compare as the program strengthens.

IRFU has five branches, Tman.   Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and Irish Exiles.   Given the historical emigration to Great Britain, the links have been there a long time with teams like London Irish tied into it for many years.    IQ Rugby is just an added resource onto that.   There are 50-60 Irish born players playing in England and some in France that they continue to track and coaches too.   In addition, there are plenty of players with Irish-born parents playing who are looking for opportunities.  

Not sure what your query means - the ratio of English-born players who are IQ compared to the total of Irish-born players playing in Ireland?  

Out of  251 players in total across provincial squads and academies - (not sub-academies or age-grade)
12 English-born
12 South African born
11 NZ-born
5 Australian -born
Then a mix of 1-2 players from USA, Canada, France, Spain, Georgia, Fiji, etc.  
200 - Irish-born

The above numbers include players like Joey Carbery, Vakh Abdaladze, Finlay Bealham, Luke McGrath, Jordi Murphy, Ultan Dillane who all moved to Ireland sub-18 years old.

Numbers of SH-born players have been falling over the last 3-4 seasons in the PRO14.   In fact, another announced his retirement today now that I think about it - a former Bok with 4 caps at Ulster.   So make that 11 SA-born.  
I think now, there are only 6 NIE foreign players left.   So the remainder are already IQ or could - IN THEORY - become IQ if they stay or have contracts renewed.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:51 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Should they not be picked?

Why shouldn't they be ? Their Irish aren't they ?

This is what I have an issue with:-

David Nucifora and the IRFU have set up a dedicated ‘IQ Rugby’ programme for overseas players. The programme launched this year aims to combat the recent rule changes and scout out potential future Irish stars playing their rugby overseas.


Why would they need to combat any rule change ?

What do they mean by potential future Irish stars ?

You do realise these are the words of an amateur journalist?    It’s their angle or slant on the story.  
As for potential future Irish stars, I just gave you 8 examples from IQ Rugby including Addison and Arnold.  

This will give you an idea of how it works - http://www.irishrugby.ie/provincial/exiles/screening.php

Hmm, interesting Pot, we have nothing like that here. A formal programme designed to hunt out overseas born players to Ireland. Wonder how the ratio compares to Irish born players, or more importantly, how it will compare as the program strengthens.


What about lads in Samoa being offered a scholarship for NZ schools? Is this true? Sure I read something about it. I’m not criticising it or questioning it. Just asking if it’s something that happens? If so, how are they spotted?  Do they put together a film of themselves and send it around schools in NZ hoping to get picked up?

Yes no ones denying it goes on, its the level of inequity that exists. We might ‘shoulder tap’ kids who have potential. Far cry from importing seasoned professionals on a grand scale.

We need to replace the hordes leaving somehow, and having the Pacific Isalnds so close to where there are larger numbers in NZ its easier for them to inegintegrate into nz culture while retaining their own.

And these are not big numbers. Nearly all ABs, bar a tiny % are born in NZ. Again, none of the SH countries pump huge numbers of professionals into their local rugby. Only Japan and the 6N do.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I honestly can’t believe that you would post all these posts, have all this strong opinion, and then come out with this absolute howler right at the end! So now, according to you, someone from New Zealand who has never stepped foot in Wales, didn’t go to school in Wales, played all his rugby in NZ.... it’s ok with you now that this guy can turn out for Wales because his mum or dad is welsh?! Anscombe for example. You’ve been arguing against that all along! This is exactly the sort of thing these scouts are out there looking for - people with parentage from one of the ‘home nations’. You’ve said you’re against it but now that’s what you would cut it back to??? This is nuts even for you!


I am trying to stay off this topic before it gets too much.

But please show me where I have said what you are claiming ?

Again, and again you accuse me of all sorts on here, but you can never back it up. I preferred it when you had me on ignore.


I highlighted your comment in my post.  You said:

“I would cut it back to parents, and that's it”. So you’re ok now with people playing for a country based on parents being from that country.  Yet right before it you said that the thing you cannot get past (i.e. what you don’t agree with) is people having never been to a country and then playing for them. But that’s exactly what you get sometimes when you allow the parent rule. We had it with Anscombe. So are you against it or not? Is Anscombe not ok with you as he’d never been here before? Or is he ok with you because of the parent thing?

I think its pretty obvious hes implying that if the rule has to be there at least cut it back to parents born, probably as a start to removing it altogether, so that theres not the absurd incidence of some distant link to anyone living there eighty years ago or similar. This rules clearly favours the six nations countries who left for the SH in far bigger numbers for a better life over that period.

You wont find many kiwis qualifying for NZ for players brought up in Europe where the grandparents arrived in Europe 80 years ago. The thought of that is a joke. Yet the reverse has occurred many times, Shields I believe something similar.

Pretty obvious who wants the rule retained. Money, residence, projects, the lot, all favour the NH in attracting overseas players massively over the reverse, the cumulative effect the reason for the demise of oz and SA rankings, and to an increasing extent, NZs dominance.

Thank you Taylorman, thanks for explaining it for me, I now do not have to type it out for him.

I cannot get passed it, but I can respect the rules, but for me, as myself, in the singular, I cannot get passed it, so if I was the best rugby player in the world, but I lived in New Zealand for 5 years, I would not want to play for New Zealand, because I am Welsh.

That does not mean I am saying everybody should be the same as me.

The thing is, he comes on here with the creepy desire to debunk me, or make me look stupid, or what ever. He accuses me of all sorts but never backs it up.

Yet he has the bare faced cheek to use "the oracle"  as his username. Whistle

What has the word ‘oracle’ got to do with debunking or backing anything up?

I get that you’ve got your personal belief on this. I just don’t get why, if you have this personal belief on the topic, why you don’t just post it once and be done. With 20 or 30 odd posts on here it sounds like you’re arguing with other people’s beliefs on the matter. Why not just accept people have different opinions on it?

And on the subject of names, could there be a more sanctimonious moniker than ‘Lord’?!
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Biltong on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:56 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Id imagine we are about the same age Billtong. Tradition and pride are fine but rugby is a sport and I dont think its meant to be taken as seriously as you seem to think. If you are too rigid with identities you run the risk of become a fanitic.

You can call me a fanatic, I have no issue with that, rugby for me is akin to friendly war, only there are points scored instead of casualties of life.

Us against them. I like to be able to identify with my team, knowing they are South African, others it seems don't care.

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Post by Brendan on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 7:56 pm

It's kind of related due to finances but if RA had been putting thought into the finances side of the game this Summer they could of invited Ireland to do an old style tour. Would have been great for Ireland and the extra cost of they would have given the IRFU would have been made back plenty. There are tons of Irish in Oz and all the games were massive. If the Irish had played the 4 Super Rugby teams aswell I have no doubt they would have sold out. The Irish in Oz would have eaten that up and I think the S15 teams would have aswell.

Big lost opportunity for RA. At least they had those "massive" crowds for the rugby championship to fall back on. Proper tours would do more for international rugby then the nations league. Do we honestly think the Clubs of England and France would rather play each other than get a crack at one of the big nations.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 8:03 pm

Brendan wrote:It's kind of related due to finances but if RA had been putting thought into the finances side of the game this Summer they could of invited Ireland to do an old style tour. Would have been great for Ireland and the extra cost of they would have given the IRFU would have been made back plenty.  There are tons of Irish in Oz and all the games were massive.  If the Irish had played the 4 Super Rugby teams aswell I have no doubt they would have sold out. The Irish in Oz would have eaten that up and I think the S15 teams would have aswell.

Big lost opportunity for RA.  At least they had those "massive" crowds for the rugby championship to fall back on.  Proper tours would do more for international rugby then the nations league.  Do we honestly think the Clubs of England and France would rather play each other than get a crack at one of the big nations.

Given that RA invited the Ireland Women’s team to tour at the same time, and the IRFU turned them down, I’m not sure that an extended tour would have been a runner.   I think one test sold out for the tour in relatively small venues i.e 40k
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 8:11 pm

Biltong wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Id imagine we are about the same age Billtong. Tradition and pride are fine but rugby is a sport and I dont think its meant to be taken as seriously as you seem to think. If you are too rigid with identities you run the risk of become a fanitic.

You can call me a fanatic, I have no issue with that, rugby for me is akin to friendly war, only there are points scored instead of casualties of life.

Us against them. I like to be able to identify with my team, knowing they are South African, others it seems don't care.


What does South African mean to you though Biltong? Just being born there? Being brought up there? Having family roots there? What makes someone South African to you? Is it the passport? The roots? Genetics?

One of my mates was born while his parents were on a trip to Barnet, England! How we laugh! Is he now English from that few hours he spent there when he popped out? What if he’d been born while on a trip to South Africa? Would you want him in your national team and would you see him as someone you could identify with knowing he was South African?
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 8:27 pm

Surely Steven Kitshoff is Irish. Do you think he should be allowed be a Bok Billtong?

The IQ programme let that one slip through the net.


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 8:30 pm

Biltong wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Id imagine we are about the same age Billtong. Tradition and pride are fine but rugby is a sport and I dont think its meant to be taken as seriously as you seem to think. If you are too rigid with identities you run the risk of become a fanitic.

You can call me a fanatic, I have no issue with that, rugby for me is akin to friendly war, only there are points scored instead of casualties of life.

Us against them. I like to be able to identify with my team, knowing they are South African, others it seems don't care.


True, makes for a lot of traitors then. An understandable and not uncommon, where guns has no problem with that (but will still argue Schmidt thinks he's Irish to 'feel better' about it)

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 8:32 pm

You are so noble Taylorman. If only we could all be like you. Joe Schmidt is Irish. You cant argue with facts unless you are out of touch with reality.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:04 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:You are so noble Taylorman. If only we could all be like you. Joe Schmidt is Irish. You cant argue with facts unless you are out of touch with reality.

I don't care what he is. He could be from Timbuktu for all I care but he learned his rugby and coaching in NZ:

From Wiki:

"Schmidt was born in Kawakawa, Northland, New Zealand, and brought up in Woodville - population 1470 - near Palmerston North.[2] He went to Tararua College in Pahiatua. After training as a school teacher, Schmidt played rugby in New Zealand, including 29 games in the provincial championship for Manawatu. He also played amateur rugby in the Irish lower leagues for a short time during the 1990s.[3]

He then returned to New Zealand to take up a teaching position He taught English and/or coached at Palmerston North Boys High, Napier Boys High School and Tauranga College where he was deputy principal.

Schmidt took up the option to coach New Zealand Schools, before leaving teaching to coach Bay of Plenty from 2003–2004. While at the Steamers he won the Ranfurly Shield defeating Auckland on 15 August 2004. The Steamers had one successful defence of the title before losing to Canterbury. Schmidt joined the Blues as assistant coach from 2004–2007 where, in his final year, they were knocked out in the semi-final.

Schmidt moved to Europe and joined Clermont Auvergne in 2007 as backs coach under Vern Cotter who he had previously worked with in Auckland. The side finished Top 14 runners-up twice in 2008 & 2009. In 2010 the side finally won the competition, after 11 appearances in the final. In Europe, Clermont made a less impact in the competition than in the Top 14. Between 2007 and 2009, Clermont failed to progress past the group stages, but during the 2009–10 Heineken Cup, Schmidt's last season with Clermont, Clermont advanced to the Quarter-finals. They lost to Leinster 29–28, with Leinster ironically Schmidt's next coaching role.

Schmidt took over as Leinster Rugby head coach from Michael Cheika for the 2010–11 season. "

blah blah blah.

Like I said, he learned his rugby and coaching as a professional in NZ before trying Europe. He would not have achieved that had he been born in Ireland. No chance. That is our issue here.

Not where he 'feels' he is. Its about who trained him up to win major rugby titles, and he'd done that before leaving.

If that's your definition of Irish pal then you go for it.


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Brendan on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:05 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Brendan wrote:It's kind of related due to finances but if RA had been putting thought into the finances side of the game this Summer they could of invited Ireland to do an old style tour. Would have been great for Ireland and the extra cost of they would have given the IRFU would have been made back plenty.  There are tons of Irish in Oz and all the games were massive.  If the Irish had played the 4 Super Rugby teams aswell I have no doubt they would have sold out. The Irish in Oz would have eaten that up and I think the S15 teams would have aswell.

Big lost opportunity for RA.  At least they had those "massive" crowds for the rugby championship to fall back on.  Proper tours would do more for international rugby then the nations league.  Do we honestly think the Clubs of England and France would rather play each other than get a crack at one of the big nations.

Given that RA invited the Ireland Women’s team to tour at the same time, and the IRFU turned them down, I’m not sure that an extended tour would have been a runner.   I think one test sold out for the tour in relatively small venues i.e 40k

While it might not be PC to say it the woman's game cost money with little return. Oz v Ire in women might get the same attendance over the tour as probably ireland v Force or the sydney team. It might just be Cork put half the people in Oz from Cork seem to have gone to peth. An extend Irish mens squad would have been ideal for Joe to give people a chance to push for squad inclusion and maybe even team.

No I could be wrong and the Oz loves these women's games but not so much here in Ireland.

The Irish test were more or less callouts except for the first one which was still a lot of Irish support. I think one of the matches clashed with a different code but could have been wrong.
Only NZ got the higher attendance and Ireland's small one may have been limited by the ground
Test 1 46273/52500
Test 2 29018/29500
Test 3 44085/44k-45500 (depends if all seated)

NZ 66318/75000
SA 27849/52500
ARG 16019/27400

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by BamBam on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:08 pm

As I posted on the other thread - Dowlais is only blustering away because he's jealous of the calibre of players England / Ireland can attract

If Wales could get someone of the calibre of James Lowe, you can bet your life that old Lordy would have nothing but support for the laws.

He's just a hypocrite, as shown by the comments highlighted by Oracle

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:11 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:You are so noble Taylorman. If only we could all be like you. Joe Schmidt is Irish. You cant argue with facts unless you are out of touch with reality.

I don't care what he is. He could be from Timbuktu for all I care but he learned his rugby and coaching in NZ:

From Wiki:

"Schmidt was born in Kawakawa, Northland, New Zealand, and brought up in Woodville - population 1470 - near Palmerston North.[2] He went to Tararua College in Pahiatua. After training as a school teacher, Schmidt played rugby in New Zealand, including 29 games in the provincial championship for Manawatu. He also played amateur rugby in the Irish lower leagues for a short time during the 1990s.[3]

He then returned to New Zealand to take up a teaching position He taught English and/or coached at Palmerston North Boys High, Napier Boys High School and Tauranga College where he was deputy principal.

Schmidt took up the option to coach New Zealand Schools, before leaving teaching to coach Bay of Plenty from 2003–2004. While at the Steamers he won the Ranfurly Shield defeating Auckland on 15 August 2004. The Steamers had one successful defence of the title before losing to Canterbury. Schmidt joined the Blues as assistant coach from 2004–2007 where, in his final year, they were knocked out in the semi-final.

Schmidt moved to Europe and joined Clermont Auvergne in 2007 as backs coach under Vern Cotter who he had previously worked with in Auckland. The side finished Top 14 runners-up twice in 2008 & 2009. In 2010 the side finally won the competition, after 11 appearances in the final. In Europe, Clermont made a less impact in the competition than in the Top 14. Between 2007 and 2009, Clermont failed to progress past the group stages, but during the 2009–10 Heineken Cup, Schmidt's last season with Clermont, Clermont advanced to the Quarter-finals. They lost to Leinster 29–28, with Leinster ironically Schmidt's next coaching role.

Schmidt took over as Leinster Rugby head coach from Michael Cheika for the 2010–11 season. "

blah blah blah.

Like I said, he learned his rugby and coaching as a professional in NZ before trying Europe. He would not have achieved that had he been born in Ireland. No chance. That is our issue here.

Not where he 'feels' he is. Its about who trained him up to win major rugby titles, and he'd done that before leaving.

If that's your definition of Irish pal then you go for it.


You seem confused. Rugby doesnt have much to do with citizenship.

However making statements like he would not have achieved what he did if he was born in Ireland just makes you look silly because it is total conjecture. The fact (something you tend to avoid) is the coaching experience that Schmidt has in Ireland from schools to club to province to country is all part of his experience and part of what makes his the coach he is now. He coached at club and school level in the early 90s in ireland before coaching with bay of plenty. The bitterness you bear over that wont change that fact nor will it remove his citizenship of Ireland. Suck it up loser.


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:You are so noble Taylorman. If only we could all be like you. Joe Schmidt is Irish. You cant argue with facts unless you are out of touch with reality.

I don't care what he is. He could be from Timbuktu for all I care but he learned his rugby and coaching in NZ:

From Wiki:

"Schmidt was born in Kawakawa, Northland, New Zealand, and brought up in Woodville - population 1470 - near Palmerston North.[2] He went to Tararua College in Pahiatua. After training as a school teacher, Schmidt played rugby in New Zealand, including 29 games in the provincial championship for Manawatu. He also played amateur rugby in the Irish lower leagues for a short time during the 1990s.[3]

He then returned to New Zealand to take up a teaching position He taught English and/or coached at Palmerston North Boys High, Napier Boys High School and Tauranga College where he was deputy principal.

Schmidt took up the option to coach New Zealand Schools, before leaving teaching to coach Bay of Plenty from 2003–2004. While at the Steamers he won the Ranfurly Shield defeating Auckland on 15 August 2004. The Steamers had one successful defence of the title before losing to Canterbury. Schmidt joined the Blues as assistant coach from 2004–2007 where, in his final year, they were knocked out in the semi-final.

Schmidt moved to Europe and joined Clermont Auvergne in 2007 as backs coach under Vern Cotter who he had previously worked with in Auckland. The side finished Top 14 runners-up twice in 2008 & 2009. In 2010 the side finally won the competition, after 11 appearances in the final. In Europe, Clermont made a less impact in the competition than in the Top 14. Between 2007 and 2009, Clermont failed to progress past the group stages, but during the 2009–10 Heineken Cup, Schmidt's last season with Clermont, Clermont advanced to the Quarter-finals. They lost to Leinster 29–28, with Leinster ironically Schmidt's next coaching role.

Schmidt took over as Leinster Rugby head coach from Michael Cheika for the 2010–11 season. "

blah blah blah.

Like I said, he learned his rugby and coaching as a professional in NZ before trying Europe. He would not have achieved that had he been born in Ireland. No chance. That is our issue here.

Not where he 'feels' he is. Its about who trained him up to win major rugby titles, and he'd done that before leaving.

If that's your definition of Irish pal then you go for it.


However making statements like he would not have achieved what he did if he was born in Ireland just makes you look silly because it is total conjecture.

So of the plethora of people that were born in Ireland in the last sixty years why is not a single one of them the current coach ...pal.

Might be conjecture but also a very good one.

Like I said, if you think hes Irish, fill yer boots. We've plenty more where he came from. Hug

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:20 pm

Because he was the best guy for the job at the time and had a long history of participation with Irish rugby at all levels so was exceptionally qualified. Whats the problem? You seem so bitter and jealous.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:28 pm

The definition of Joe being Irish is that his name is Joe - a very popular name in Ireland. So it's obvious he qualifies. Now really.... enough of this nonsense.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:The definition of Joe being Irish is that his name is Joe - a very popular name in Ireland.  So it's obvious he qualifies.  Now really.... enough of this nonsense.

Agreed.  Schmidt is a Kiwi - born and bred.   He took out Irish citizenship in 2015.   This makes him an Irish citizen - from New Zealand.    And when he returns to New Zealand, he’ll still be a Kiwi, with Irish citizenship if he wants to keep it. And, he’s learned and developed his coaching skills in a variety of countries - NZ, France and Ireland. And that will benefit him if and when he returns to NZ.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Doctor7 on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:48 pm

BamBam wrote:As I posted on the other thread - Dowlais is only blustering away because he's jealous of the calibre of players England / Ireland can attract

If Wales could get someone of the calibre of James Lowe, you can bet your life that old Lordy would have nothing but support for the laws.

He's just a hypocrite, as shown by the comments highlighted by Oracle

OMG

How childish is this member ?

what are you 10 years old ???


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 9:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:The definition of Joe being Irish is that his name is Joe - a very popular name in Ireland.  So it's obvious he qualifies.  Now really.... enough of this nonsense.

Yep, better than any other argument Ive heard thumbsup

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 1:22 am

Doctor7 wrote:
BamBam wrote:As I posted on the other thread - Dowlais is only blustering away because he's jealous of the calibre of players England / Ireland can attract

If Wales could get someone of the calibre of James Lowe, you can bet your life that old Lordy would have nothing but support for the laws.

He's just a hypocrite, as shown by the comments highlighted by Oracle

OMG

How childish is this member ?

what are you 10 years old ???

Did you really just write - OMG?





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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Cyril on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 1:33 am

Schmidt is a New Zealander with Irish citizenship. I imagine he goes to London for the culture and the South of Europe for the weather on his holidays. It’s a business deal where he gets paid much better than in his homeland. He might have to brave the crappy Irish weather and not much to do outside of rugby for a while, but he can always fly to England and the rest of Europe while he’s here until he retires with a nice nest egg in the SH.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 2:49 am

Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The definition of Joe being Irish is that his name is Joe - a very popular name in Ireland.  So it's obvious he qualifies.  Now really.... enough of this nonsense.

Agreed.  Schmidt is a Kiwi - born and bred.   He took out Irish citizenship in 2015.   This makes him an Irish citizen - from New Zealand.    And when he returns to New Zealand, he’ll still be a Kiwi, with Irish citizenship if he wants to keep it.  And, he’s learned and developed his coaching skills in a variety of countries - NZ, France and Ireland.    And that will benefit him if and when he returns to NZ.

Yep, got it in one. thumbsup No doubting all this benefits these guys but it does separate them from the fans who don't do any of that. They like to see some sort of allegiance to their home sides, which is all Guns is doing as well, albeit probably at 'a stretch' in this case.

We are thinking of making O'Gara a real kiwi by the way. Kaumatua Ronan...has a ring thumbsup

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by profitius on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 5:19 am

Schmidt came to Ireland in the 90s, to Mullingar, a small town in the center of Ireland. Schmidt was a teacher by day but by night in the local rugby club, the Mullingar gurus were passing on the ancient arts of Irish rugby to the keen but unenlightened kiwi.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 6:13 am

I would never attempt to speak for someone else, especially someone I do not know personally so I do not know how Schmidt feels. He could feel Irish or he could feel Kiwi, that's his personal feelings.

All I can do is use my own personal experience and feelings at immigrating to another country. I did not go to Holland with the intention to represent Holland at anything internationally, I went for personal and family reasons. As such, I am still Irish with dual nationality. I have strong bonds with Holland and support them as my second team (being my second country) but Ireland is still my homeland and the country I associate myself with.

I see nothing wrong with that approach and as I have said, it is my personal opinion and feelings.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by ebop on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 6:28 am

Brendan wrote:The Irish overseas program is based on the concept that there are 70m Irish in the world.  As only 6m live on the island we need people to bring them back.  Many an Irish person was just unlucky to be born in stables and not on the promised land.

It would be unfair of us to not to go get them. David N is like Moses going all over the world telling the Unions to let our people go or damnation and financial ruin will be sent by Joe.

LET OUR PEOPLE GO
David Nucifora, another foreigner dragging Ireland rugby up by leading the ‘poacher squad’. That’s next level. The poached doing the poaching.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Taylorman on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 7:55 am

ebop wrote:
Brendan wrote:The Irish overseas program is based on the concept that there are 70m Irish in the world.  As only 6m live on the island we need people to bring them back.  Many an Irish person was just unlucky to be born in stables and not on the promised land.

It would be unfair of us to not to go get them. David N is like Moses going all over the world telling the Unions to let our people go or damnation and financial ruin will be sent by Joe.

LET OUR PEOPLE GO
David Nucifora, another foreigner dragging Ireland rugby up by leading the ‘poacher squad’. That’s next level. The poached doing the poaching.

Well its the same as failed player and coach Pat Lam getting dumped from the Blues then ending up in Bristol hiring Blues players like theyre going out of fashion.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by ebop on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 8:00 am

Taylorman wrote:
ebop wrote:
Brendan wrote:The Irish overseas program is based on the concept that there are 70m Irish in the world.  As only 6m live on the island we need people to bring them back.  Many an Irish person was just unlucky to be born in stables and not on the promised land.

It would be unfair of us to not to go get them. David N is like Moses going all over the world telling the Unions to let our people go or damnation and financial ruin will be sent by Joe.

LET OUR PEOPLE GO
David Nucifora, another foreigner dragging Ireland rugby up by leading the ‘poacher squad’. That’s next level. The poached doing the poaching.

Well its the same as failed player and coach Pat Lam getting dumped from the Blues then ending up in Bristol hiring Blues players like theyre going out of fashion.
It’s pretty sad isn’t it. Ex-players and coaches going out of their way to ‘give back’ to the unions that made them by targeting and poaching players from that union. Sad. No respect for these people.
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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 8:50 am

Taylorman wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The definition of Joe being Irish is that his name is Joe - a very popular name in Ireland.  So it's obvious he qualifies.  Now really.... enough of this nonsense.

Agreed.  Schmidt is a Kiwi - born and bred.   He took out Irish citizenship in 2015.   This makes him an Irish citizen - from New Zealand.    And when he returns to New Zealand, he’ll still be a Kiwi, with Irish citizenship if he wants to keep it.  And, he’s learned and developed his coaching skills in a variety of countries - NZ, France and Ireland.    And that will benefit him if and when he returns to NZ.

Yep, got it in one. thumbsup  No doubting all this benefits these guys but it does separate them from the fans who don't do any of that. They like to see some sort of allegiance to their home sides, which is all Guns is doing as well, albeit probably at 'a stretch' in this case.

We are thinking of making O'Gara a real kiwi by the way. Kaumatua Ronan...has a ring thumbsup

Its hardly a stretch. It was his own choice to become Irish and something he said he feels all by himself. He has also coached at all levels in Ireland. These are facts which you ignore at your convenience.

OGara has never expressed a wish to be a Kiwi, if he does then thats his business. I certainly wont become a big whinge about it like you. Id imagine its more likely that someone like Oliver Jaeger will become a New Zealander and who knows maybe someday become capped by the ABs, given that lots of props come of age later on in their careers.


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Engine#4 on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 9:08 am

What I've gathered from this thread is that-

Player moves from Pacific Island or African nation to SANZAR country for economic/educational reasons and winds up representing said benevolent country = all good, nothing to see here.

Player moves fron SANZAR country to NH country for economic/educational reasons and winds up representing said country = poachers, traitors etc.

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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 9:12 am

eirebilly wrote:I would never attempt to speak for someone else, especially someone I do not know personally so I do not know how Schmidt feels. He could feel Irish or he could feel Kiwi, that's his personal feelings.

All I can do is use my own personal experience and feelings at immigrating to another country. I did not go to Holland with the intention to represent Holland at anything internationally, I went for personal and family reasons. As such, I am still Irish with dual nationality. I have strong bonds with Holland and support them as my second team (being my second country) but Ireland is still my homeland and the country I associate myself with.

I see nothing wrong with that approach and as I have said, it is my personal opinion and feelings.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i-wanted-to-be-irish-without-being-plastic-joe-schmidt-on-his-irish-citizenship-31500571.html

Its kind of sad that a worthy citizen can become Irish by desire, by affiliation and by choice and yet his fellow Irishmen refuse to acknowledge him as Irish. There is something fundamentally wrong about that.

"I wanted to be Irish without being plastic" – Joe Schmidt on his Irish citizenship

I used to work with a guy originally from Ghana who became an Irish citizen about 10 years ago. On his first day people were asked in a meeting to introduce themselves and state where they were from. This dude went first and said his name was ____ from Ireland. A girl beside me laughed and said there is no way you are from Ireland. This is the same sort of sad backward thinking. This dude a fairly decent sort who works and has totally embraced his citizenship basically isn't going to be recognised as Irish by work colleagues as he looks a bit different. How sad is that? Same story for Schmidt it seems.


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Oct 2018, 9:15 am

Engine#4 wrote:What I've gathered from this thread is that-

Player moves from Pacific Island or African nation to SANZAR country for economic/educational reasons and winds up representing said benevolent country = all good, nothing to see here.

Player moves fron SANZAR country to NH country for economic/educational reasons and winds up representing said country = poachers, traitors etc.

Haha exactly. The spin in the SH is oh look how great we are giving poor unfortunate souls from Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Zimbabwe, Papua New Guinea a chance at a better life. Look how evil and greedy NH nations are at taking all the SH players in that want to make a better life for themselves in the North. Hypocrisy.


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Re: Poaching, project players, residency qualifications etc.

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