PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

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PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 31 Oct 2018, 6:31 pm

1).Back to the USA as the Tour bids farewell to Asia and howdy to the friendly confines of the (snappily named) "Shriners Hospitals for Children Open" in Las Vegas.
Didn't see anything of the Asian events but enjoyed the final round of the Sanderson Farms action from Mississippi and the statement made by winner Cameron Champ, coincidentally or not, in the same week as he's the cover boy on Golf Digest. A Star is Born perhaps?  

2).Regardless, the Tour season is already 10% done and the Pros have slowly figured out that good results (viz FedEx Points) and tournaments played can help take pressures off later - obviously more the Rafa policy than the Shane Lowry approach of previous years.

3).A few US Ryder Cuppers are coming out to play this week, BDeC (imagine he'll be happy not to be partnering anyone, he never did look comfortable en France), Finau, Fowler, Simpson (previous winner here) and Spieth. And Fowler and Spieth will tee it up at Mayakoba next week also.
GB&I interest is limited to Laird (previous winner, plus a hard luck play-off runner up when Byrd aced the play-off hole), McDowell (on a sponsor invitation) and Seamus Power. Laird has become especially adept at clocking up decent finishes before the heart of the Tour season is upon us.

4).As GPB has been reminding us, Stadler and Freddie Jac are playing again, on Major Medical Extension, and so is John Senden (more compassionate in his case). Sometimes surprising to look at the long list of one-time Tour regulars who get injured and creep back via the "Medical". Bill Haas started his season with two Top 15's but that falls narrowly adrift of fulfilling the demands of his extension so, for most stronger-field tournaments he'll be missing out. Whereas Lucas Glover qualified and will once again be a Tour regular this season (so long as the missus doesn't deck him, or otherwise put him out of commission). Others in that twilight zone include:
DeLaet
Donald
Hoffmann (wonder what his medical condition is like? We could have seen the last of him, which is pretty sad.)
Tim Clark
Camilo
Smylie Kaufman
Greg Owen (defining "Beyond the Fringe" as he continues to define "rank and file").

5).And Stage 2 of web.com Q-School is underway with one-time Tour winners such as Merrick, Hensby and Brendon Todd, plus old lags Brian Davis, Luke Guthrie, Martin Flores, Spencer Levin and Kyle Reifers - none of them household names, but none of them strangers either.

6).Next week the Tour goes to Mayakoba and the Champions action climaxes in Phoenix. Then RSM/McGladrey and, finally, a few weeks off until Kapalua where they are the champions. Some surprising names will already have secured their season by then. They are the Cameron champs of this world plus a few high finishers, while others will already be under pressure, increasingly difficult to get their season back on track.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Wed 31 Oct 2018, 9:59 pm

I think Boo Weekley has some sort of Major Medical status too. He has showed up in preliminary fields, only to be an 11th hour WD.

In case you forgot, Hensby was suspended a year ago for failing to provide a sample for drug test.

https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/mark-hensby-pga-tour-after-his-drug-ban-they-just-dont-care

I agree on Hoffmann, we have probably seen the last of him. A young guy who seemingly did everything right health wise, to be struck with MD, diagnosed two years ago. Looked on his instagram and twitter accounts, it looks like he has been doing some fundraising for MD, but no mention of a comeback that I could find.

If there is a long term disability coverage for PGATour pros, I suspect Tim Clark is exploiting it. Highly convenient that he goes on Medical, two tournaments after the anchor ban. Close to three years that he has been gone.

Cameron Champ playing Kapalua is going to be interesting

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 31 Oct 2018, 10:17 pm

Yeah, I wondered about Boo, but he's not on the Past Champion List or the Veteran List as well as the Medical - perhaps he's retired to go fishin' and huntin' and killin' and skinnin' animals?

Yup, reckon Hensby is right and that's a bogus, but self-inflicted penalty. Other Antipodean old lags at Q-School include Alker, Timmy Wilkinson, Allan, Flanagan etc.

I'm more interested in Monday Qualifying veterans Oda & Vogel.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 10:53 am

Tim Clark "exploiting" the Medical process?
He finished 13th in his first event after anchoring went aweigh, missed the cut the following week and hasn't been seen since. Haven't seen anything to suggest he's "exploiting" anything.


Peter Uihlein leading in Las Vegas - does he still hold ET Membership?
A tale of two nines for Martin Laird, but a nice comeback for a 67. Lousy Round 1 from Seamus Power though.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 12:03 pm

Are we really going to rake over the ridiculous claim that Clarke can grip and swing at 100mph+ but can't putt without anchoring because of his poorly arm? Utter rubbish.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 2:44 pm

McLaren wrote:Are we really going to rake over the ridiculous claim that Clarke can grip and swing at 100mph+ but can't putt without anchoring because of his poorly arm?  Utter rubbish.



No.
But he's always been among the shortest hitters on Tour and has long nursed a debilitating neck problem. Fwiw, I followed him five years ago and he laid up FOUR times from the fairway on Par-4's. Ask him if it's "rubbish" or not.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 3:44 pm

IIRC, one of the undercover pros said that long term disability pays 10K per month. And I think he said tax free.

If Tim Clark is pulling in 120k a year, with no travel expenses, seems like a pretty good reason to stay on disabled list, especially if his game is no bueno.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 6:39 pm

Plenty of others on that gravy train over the years GPB . . . . . .

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 6:56 pm

McLaren wrote:Are we really going to rake over the ridiculous claim that Clarke can grip and swing at 100mph+ but can't putt without anchoring because of his poorly arm?  Utter rubbish.


Mac, do you seriously think that you can be competitive on tour if you only swing at 100mph? Courses are routinely over 7000 yards, par 4's stretch to over 500. 100mph is not sufficient to be competitive around these courses, I would think a swing of 110mph would still see you as a relative shortknocker.

If I was a fat aging shortarse like Clark who had a lucrative injury policy, I'd be an idiot to try and compete against people who are something like 50-80 yards ahead from the tee.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 02 Nov 2018, 7:29 pm

Mary's son, Steve Surry, leading the Vodacom Origins of Golf event in South Africa:

https://www.golfchannel.com/tours/sunshine-tour/2018/vodacom-origins-golf-final/

Good luck to him, and her Fingers Crossed

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 3:01 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Mary's son, Steve Surry, leading the Vodacom Origins of Golf event in South Africa:

https://www.golfchannel.com/tours/sunshine-tour/2018/vodacom-origins-golf-final/

Good luck to him, and her Fingers Crossed

And Surry wins!
Not quite sure how the Sunshine Tour season works, but that win should surely gain Steve Surry entry into the ET tournaments over the coming months. Great stuff.


Back in Las Vegas, Round 2 was suspended last night due to darkness and will resume about now.

Seamus has suffered a Power failure and will be in the casinos, but McDool and Laird are playing well, big weekend for both, especially McDowell who has won't be getting into the quality of tournaments that he's taken for granted since his Pebble Beach win.
And the Mad Scientist has confirmed he'll be leaving the pin in on some of his putts this season following the (daft) rule change. (He's in good position this week mind.)

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by I'm never wrong on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:02 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:And the Mad Scientist has confirmed he'll be leaving the pin in on some of his putts this season following the (daft) rule change. (He's in good position this week mind.)
Why is this a daft rule Kwini? For the group I play in this will speed up our round a bit.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:28 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:And the Mad Scientist has confirmed he'll be leaving the pin in on some of his putts this season following the (daft) rule change. (He's in good position this week mind.)
Why is this a daft rule Kwini? For the group I play in this will speed up our round a bit.  


Not for me, and I think it will cause more problems than the negligible number it strives to solve. Never even saw it as an issue and hadn't realised the rule had changed!
But c'est la vie I suppose.

Off and running in Round 3.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 8:11 pm

Si Woo Kim started his Round 3 birdie, birdie, birdie, birdie, birdie, quintuple bogey.

McDool going well, Laird swimming against the tide, Lucas Glover en fuego.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Sun 04 Nov 2018, 8:03 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Lucas Glover en fuego.
Maybe it’s that time of the month for hos wife so he better play well.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Sun 04 Nov 2018, 9:40 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:And the Mad Scientist has confirmed he'll be leaving the pin in on some of his putts this season following the (daft) rule change. (He's in good position this week mind.)
Why is this a daft rule Kwini? For the group I play in this will speed up our round a bit.  


Not for me, and I think it will cause more problems than the negligible number it strives to solve. Never even saw it as an issue and hadn't realised the rule had changed!
But c'est la vie I suppose.

Off and running in Round 3.

Unless playing in a competition who ever bothers to take the pin out anyway?
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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 04 Nov 2018, 10:24 pm

Everyone I've ever played with . . . . . . . . Obviously haven't played with your crowd, Mac.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by NedB-H on Sun 04 Nov 2018, 10:29 pm

McLaren wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:And the Mad Scientist has confirmed he'll be leaving the pin in on some of his putts this season following the (daft) rule change. (He's in good position this week mind.)
Why is this a daft rule Kwini? For the group I play in this will speed up our round a bit.  


Not for me, and I think it will cause more problems than the negligible number it strives to solve. Never even saw it as an issue and hadn't realised the rule had changed!
But c'est la vie I suppose.

Off and running in Round 3.

Unless playing in a competition who ever bothers to take the pin out anyway?
Are you on the windup here?

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Sun 04 Nov 2018, 11:12 pm

No. The main group I play with don't usually bother.
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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 1:04 am

McLaren wrote:No. The main group I play with don't usually bother.


Bunch of amateurs, never heard of such a thing.


BDeC now has more wins than Rickie Fouler, but quite like that to change at Mayakoba - if not Rickie, hows about Ancer?

Notes next week will be a bit late . . . . . . . . .

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Roller_Coaster on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 8:16 am

I leave the pin alone if I go out for a knock.

Rule change will end up being daft but only because some will have it in and some out and the administration of that will be painful to watch in the pro game. In principle it make perfect sense, especially for pace of play in the real world of casual play.


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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 9:26 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Everyone I've ever played with . . . . . . . . Obviously haven't played with your crowd, Mac.

Never heard of a solitary person being referred to as a crowd.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 9:26 am

pedro wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Lucas Glover en fuego.
Maybe it’s that time of the month for hos wife so he better play well.

OK haha

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 9:27 am

McLaren wrote:No. The main group I play with don't usually bother.

Is this on your x-box?

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 1:00 pm

Ray, no I'm a playstation player. And I just hope I don't ever get caught behind a group of 606ers fannying about with the pin on every hole.



So Rose to number 1 and next week it seems Koepka will regain it regardless but what about BDC? How long before he gets to number 1 if his current play continues? He is quickly becoming a lot more than a novelty figure.
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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 1:04 pm

Mac, it takes NO TIME to take a pin out, as it's usually done by the player nearest the pin, so literally no time is wasted.

For those who don't know. Mac plays at a tinpot municipal where things like divots are rarely replaced, bunkers are rarely raked (and don't even have rakes often either) and where general etiquette is simply not required, so it's no surprise that he wouldn't take a pin out, also, the greens are so bad that generally it is barely even worth putting on them in the first place.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 3:25 pm

BDC is still a long ways from the OWGR Top spot, about 150 net points, so it is probably at least 5 tournaments away, unless he wins his next three tournaments.

He has a lot of early 2017 baggage to shed where he his play was not very good. 10 of the next 13 tournaments going off his OWGR resume are MC/WDs.

Guessing that he plays the HWC, and will play a heavy Winter schedule like he did this past season. He played 6 of the first 7 weeks last January and February.

At this point he is trending to be the next #1 player who hasn't been #1 before.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 4:24 pm

GPB wrote:IIRC, one of the undercover pros said that long term disability pays 10K per month.  And I think he said tax free.

If Tim Clark is pulling in 120k a year, with no travel expenses, seems like a pretty good reason to stay on disabled list, especially if his game is no bueno.
PGAT changed their rules on the medical and disability things some years ago. There are time limits now so It's no longer a blanket "long term" check.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 7:10 pm

So Nedbank does in fact drop to 34 field strength.. Look at the last 4 weeks of ET schedule. China, Turkey, South Africa, Dubai. WTF?

How many top players are going to make any more than 2 of those? Not many, cuz last year more of them did and they found out how brutal it is, so something had to give. This year its Nedbank going from 44 to 34. (Turkey was down too).

Bottom line: the ET needs its top name Dual-tour players participating to get any decent field strength over 40. And needs just about all of them to get to 50. Since those guys are playing for $7 million or more every week anyway, it's going to take a lot more than a $7 million dollar purse to do that kind of brutal schedule.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 7:17 pm

All the hand-wringing over the new "pin in" rule is kind of baffling to me. Yeah it's different but so what? Players might make a few additional putts due to the assistance of the pin according to some. Others think just the opposite. So what? Let each player make his own choice.

My guess, there will be enough testing in the next year to tell us the truth which way it is anyway. And the Players will follow the science/data.

Either way, my prediction is a year from now the consensus opinion or be: "Well that was sure as heck Much Ado About Nothing".

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Davie on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 8:22 pm

I really don't see many of the pros leaving the pin in. Surely it's just designed for casual club play to speed things up a bit. The high handicappers first on the green from 50 feet away while their playing partners still faffing around greenside just knocking the ball up somewhere close without having to wait for someone to tend the pin

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue 06 Nov 2018, 9:42 pm

Davie wrote:I really don't see many of the pros leaving the pin in.
Why not? I think it's all going to come down to the data and testing. The Dave Pelz study from a few years back suggested it's actually better to leave the pin in. If additional tests prove the same thing, IMO it would be entirely daft for a professional not to leave the pin in. If the advantage were to prove to be only 1 additional putt made per 100... What Pro wouldn't take advantage of subtracting 1+ stroke per tournament?  Take any pro and go thru the year and do that, and see how much extra money he makes or loses by doing/not doing it. Might even be the difference in a Win.

And by the way, I'm one of those who instinctively has always believed the pin in hurts more than it helps. But the more I see and hear of actual studies on this, the more I'm beginning to believe I've been wrong about that all along.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 12:48 am

I can see the Flagstick as an advantage if there is a reasonable chance that a player hits the putt too hard. From long distance and downhill putts.

Not sure is there is a "standard" to flag stick diameter. The larger diameter, (guessing), the less it helps.

And what happens if flagstick manufacturers start tapering the flagstick right at green height. If it is tapered down, big advantage. tapered up, disadvantage.

I can BDC taking a micronometer to measure flagstick diameters and any possible tapering.

And I have seen flagsticks made of difference materials, fiberglass, aluminum, steel.


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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 3:00 pm

GPB wrote:I can see the Flagstick as an advantage if there is a reasonable chance that a player hits the putt too hard.  From long distance and downhill putts.

Not sure is there is a "standard" to flag stick diameter.  The larger diameter, (guessing), the less it helps.

And what happens if flagstick manufacturers start tapering the flagstick right at green height. If it is tapered down, big advantage.  tapered up, disadvantage.

I can BDC taking a micronometer to measure flagstick diameters and any possible tapering.

And I have seen flagsticks made of difference materials, fiberglass, aluminum, steel.


I don't think it's going to be near so complicated. I think smart people are going to run tests using various types of flagsticks doing uphill, sidehill, downhill, and various distance conditions and issue reports of their findings.

Assuming the reports show it's an advantage to leave the flag in (and I still don't know for sure multiple studies will confirm that), From there caddies and players will take a tournament or two to figure it out, and apply it, and instinctively go on from there like it ain't no big thing. If B.A.D wants to run his own tests/measurements/calculations on that week's flag stick during practice rounds, so what? It's not like he's going to have to do it every hole.

I really think after a week or two of curiosity, this is going to be Much Ado About Nothing, regardless of which way players decide to deal with it.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Davie on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 4:35 pm

I didn't hear about these studies that say it's beneficial to leave the pin in - but if that's the case why do so many pros - and even good ams - elect to have the pin out when chipping or putting from off the green?

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 4:54 pm

From 10+ years ago ... that geeky (but likeable) golf guy Dave Pelz: https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 8:13 pm

Thks sr, I remember the test. It could be interesting to see the data or how significant the results were.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 8:53 pm

Saw a tweet that the Arnold Palmer Invitational has been designated as one of the Open qualifier tournaments for the Open Championship. As the API is an invitational tournament, this is a bad precedent.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 11:19 pm

Yet another player at the pinaccle of his career decides to change equipment... picard
Think we all know how that’ll turn out. picard rose

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 8:02 am

GPB wrote:Saw a tweet that the Arnold Palmer Invitational has been designated as one of the Open qualifier tournaments for the Open Championship.  As the API is an invitational tournament, this is a bad precedent.

Not really. The Masters is an invitational, and it's not like The Open is all that Open these days anyway, certainly nothing like it used to be.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by beninho on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 8:46 am

Guessing rose will get a nice wedge to move clubs. Still makes me laugh when people talk about rory and his club changing, like the £30m a year wasn't worth it.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:18 am

beninho wrote:Guessing rose will get a nice wedge to move clubs. Still makes me laugh when people talk about rory and his club changing, like the £30m a year wasn't worth it.
£30m or not, there's a risk Rory will sit around in 30 years time regret he made that decision. He basically threw away a year of his career, while at his best, trying to adapt. Hard not to speculate if it cost a major or two.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 1:49 pm

GPB wrote:BDC is still a long ways from the OWGR Top spot, about 150 net points, so it is probably at least 5 tournaments away, unless he wins his next three tournaments.

He has a lot of early 2017 baggage to shed where he his play was not very good.  10 of the next 13 tournaments going off his OWGR resume are MC/WDs.

Guessing that he plays the HWC, and will play a heavy Winter schedule like he did this past season.  He played 6 of the first 7 weeks last January and February.

At this point he is trending to be the next #1 player who hasn't been #1 before.

I was just sort of philosophising out loud but thanks for the detailed response. I think your last point is a nice way to think about BDC, and next season expect him to be put under the he should win a major spotlight.
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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 2:10 pm

Davie wrote:I didn't hear about these studies that say it's beneficial to leave the pin in - but if that's the case why do so many pros - and even good ams - elect to have the pin out when chipping or putting from off the green?

I read an article explaining somebody had run tests and found that overall it made no difference. I believe this was a key factor which facilitated the introduction of this rule change: it doesn't make the game easier or harder - just a bit quicker.

Sorry don't have a source to quote, but maybe R&A / USGA referenced it.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 5:45 pm

Honma seems a strange company to move to, ambitious from them, but a strange one for Rose.
I suppose his transition will be dependent mostly on what ball he moves to.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Thu 08 Nov 2018, 9:00 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
Davie wrote:I didn't hear about these studies that say it's beneficial to leave the pin in - but if that's the case why do so many pros - and even good ams - elect to have the pin out when chipping or putting from off the green?

I read an article explaining somebody had run tests and found that overall it made no difference. I believe this was a key factor which facilitated the introduction of this rule change: it doesn't make the game easier or harder - just a bit quicker.

Sorry don't have a source to quote, but maybe R&A / USGA referenced it.
From my reading of it... and the entire objective of this massive rule rewrite... The "pin in" rule was intended as a simplification or just one less ticky-tack thing a guy can get penalized for. And "maybe" it can speed up play a bit too.  If I had a guess, the USGA or R&A probably couldn't care less if it's a plus, minus or neutral to probability of making putts. So what if it is?  Who cares as long as it's a level playing field.

And by the way... here's a link to the recap of the 2007 Dave Pelz study suggesting it's slightly advantageous to leave the pin in... https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out  No data included, just the base conclusions.  My bet is several "someones" are already doing some serious testing on this and we'll be hearing more on that in the not too distant future.  If it's an advantage or not, it's just too important to Tour pros to know the answer either way.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Fri 09 Nov 2018, 7:55 am

It's all very well saying that 1000 putts might produce a result where you can tell a slight difference, but how many times would an individual hit a pin in say 50 rounds leaving the pin in putting? After all, you'd only leave the pin in for long putts.

I don't think anyone has tested anything randomly as the putts would be in normal play.

This whole thing strikes me as being similar to the anchoring issue. No one presented any data to show that was an advantageous technique either.

I'd probably leave the pin in for snaking downhill putts, probably take it out for anything inside 25-30 feet, which doesn't leave many putts per round to build any data on.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Fri 09 Nov 2018, 12:02 pm

super_realist wrote:It's all very well saying that 1000 putts might produce a result where you can tell a slight difference, but how many times would an individual hit a pin in say 50 rounds leaving the pin in putting? After all, you'd only leave the pin in for long putts.

I don't think anyone has tested anything randomly as the putts would be in normal play.

This whole thing strikes me as being similar to the anchoring issue. No one presented any data to show that was an advantageous technique either.  

I'd probably leave the pin in for snaking downhill putts, probably take it out for anything inside 25-30 feet, which doesn't leave many putts per round to build any data on.

Why take the pin out at all, if statistically it is proven to increase the chance of holing out?

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Fri 09 Nov 2018, 1:17 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
Why take the pin out at all, if statistically it is proven to increase the chance of holing out?
I'm with you on that. I don't know what further testing and more complete data is going to show. And I doubt many (if any) of us have played with the pin in enough to be able to reach an accurate conclusion on our own. I'd go with whatever the studies and data says without batting an eyelash.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Fri 09 Nov 2018, 1:27 pm

super_realist wrote:
This whole thing strikes me as being similar to the anchoring issue. No one presented any data to show that was an advantageous technique either.  
It doesn't strike me that way, because I don't think the USGA or R&A cares one bit if leaving the pin in is advantageous or not. A lot of these new rules give the player new advantages that he didn't have before... like.... Embedded ball rule extented to most everywhere, loose impediments removable anywhere, fixing spike marks in the line of your putt...

To me taking advantage of this new pin in option (if it really is an advantage), it's no different than taking advantage of the option to fix a spike mark or remove a loose impediment in a penalty area... Etc.

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Re: PGA Tour: Viva Las Vegas: Notes from the Ballwasher

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