England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

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England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 01 Nov 2018, 9:49 am

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 3rd November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Angus Gardiner (Aus)
Assistant 1: Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 2: Ben Whitehouse (Wales)
TMO:            Olly Hodges (Ireland)




Teams


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 21 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 13 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 61 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps), 1 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 93 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 13 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 22 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 25 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 2 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 4 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps).
 
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 28 caps), 17 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 6 caps) , 20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby, uncapped), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 81 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps), 23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).




South Africa


15 Damian Willemse, 14 S’bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Ivan van Zyl, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Duane Vermeulen, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Thomas du Toit, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Lood de Jager, 21 Embrose Papier, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 André Esterhuizen.


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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by englishborn on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:23 pm

Daly really needs to work on his high ball if he is to be the Full Back, far too vulnerable at the moment. He also needs to learn to trust the wingers and pass the ball wide, 1 try went begging and another was possibly on the cards before he stepped into the SA defence.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by BamBam on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:23 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:This view doesn't look like a tackle

https://twitter.com/SUNSHINENICK/status/1058765350031015937

Think we are lucky that view didn't come up on the screen.

Watching that, Farrell is a very lucky man

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:24 pm

Cyril wrote:Decent win for England considering the first half. We can build on that

SANZAR SLAM. Believe

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:25 pm

Im sorry to be so negative guys I really am....but England are going to get torn a new one by the AB's.

That was utterly awful!

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:26 pm

Looks that way but you never know.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Biltong on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:26 pm

protea438 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Yes South Africa Frak that up, same as their match at Loftus vs the AB's

They are still a long way off putting teams away

Come on mate relax, I hope you not one of those South Africans who enjoys bitching about South African teams every chance they get

Protea, this Bok team has been incredibly inconsistent in performances.

Execution cost them a number of matches this year, as well as mentality.

I call it as I see.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:26 pm

I hope Jones, Mitchell and co-captain Hartley make it clear to Farrell that another referee might easily have penalised him, so he has to get that tackling technique out of his game.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Taylorman on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:28 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Certainly improving though Billtong, you'll be a force by the WC.

Im not convinced. Losses to Wales, England, Argentina and Australia etc. Away from home SA dont really scare anyone (except the ABs Shocked )

Put Ireland in that category, bar the All blacks bit.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by theslosty on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:29 pm

I get that it's always easy to focus on the decision made at the end of the game, and that England could well still have won...


but honestly, I have seen red cards given in European games lately that were not as dangerous as that Farrell hit. Baffling call
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by quinsforever on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:29 pm

England are underweight vs SA pack.

Still, they hung in there and defended with real heart.

And every time we got into their 22 we came away with points. The only other team that does that is NZ.

So there is some hope at least.

But ABs next week is hard to imagine us winning.

On a side note, with a very exacting referee (blew every marginal offside and contact in lineout and maul-swim), that was probably the fewest penalties i have ever seen in an international match. good on both teams for that

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by theslosty on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:30 pm

I get that it's always easy to focus on the decision made at the end of the game, and that England could well still have won...


but honestly, I have seen red cards given in European games lately that were not as dangerous as that Farrell hit. Baffling call
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by englishborn on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:31 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sorry to be so negative guys I really am....but England are going to get torn a new one by the AB's.

That was utterly awful!

Fair to say ABs will very likely win, but SA are a different beast to the ABs. Lots less power but massive hike in ball skills, really doubt we will be giving away so many penalties as we did today. I suspect we will have a lot more ball and more chances, but so will the ABs, I really dont see it being as 1 sided for an entire half.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Taylorman on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:31 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I hope Jones, Mitchell and co-captain Hartley make it clear to Farrell that another referee might easily have penalised him, so he has to get that tackling technique out of his game.

I think he knew that looking at his celebration of relief at the decision. Hes lucky his lower arm was floating around the body somewhere otherwise it was a no arms tackle. It was anyway, but he got away with it.

Pollards miss decided the result ultimately.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by quinsforever on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:31 pm

red card for that? bahahaha. was clearly below the shoulder. whether it was no arms or not is irrelevant in any red card discussion.

sour grapes?

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by demosthenes on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:32 pm

Well, as I understand it, an England side able to pick from all available players was only just able to beat a South Africa side unable to select European based players. So not sure why the optimism from England fans?

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Biltong on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:32 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Certainly improving though Billtong, you'll be a force by the WC.

Im not convinced. Losses to Wales, England, Argentina and Australia etc. Away from home SA dont really scare anyone (except the ABs Shocked )

Yeah, you know that is just a BS clickbait comment.

The Springboks are coming, they have improved immensely since Allister Coetzee, still inconsistent, but soon they will scare the shyte out of many teams.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:34 pm

stub wrote:Sinckler was very impressive...
Really?

Thought he was awful in the first half, but good in second as we picked up the pace. Still feels to me that he is better used from the bench.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Heaf on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:35 pm

theslosty wrote:I get that it's always easy to focus on the decision made at the end of the game, and that England could well still have won...


but honestly, I have seen red cards given in European games lately that were not as dangerous as that Farrell hit. Baffling call

The reds would probably have contained contact to the head - Farrell's didn't so whilst I'm not saying it was legal it was never a red either.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by englishborn on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:35 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I hope Jones, Mitchell and co-captain Hartley make it clear to Farrell that another referee might easily have penalised him, so he has to get that tackling technique out of his game.

I think he knew that looking at his celebration of relief at the decision. Hes lucky his lower arm was floating around the body somewhere otherwise it was a no arms tackle. It was anyway, but he got away with it.

Pollards miss decided the result ultimately.

Well Farrell missed one too, I would say SA's lineouts and knockons decided it really, when they had momentum they wasted it and England came into the game and got on top.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:39 pm

Even if everyone is fit, I can't imagine Jones will feel comfortable selecting the same starting XV against NZ.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Taylorman on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:40 pm

Pollard missed two but he had the chance at 76 or so to take the match. An easy kick for him too. A little surprised his left to right action on the ball didnt add a small curve to the flight, it stayed straight. Thats why I think he was surprised, as he hit the right line on the kick, the right post for a Right foot kicker.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:42 pm

Biltong wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Certainly improving though Billtong, you'll be a force by the WC.

Im not convinced. Losses to Wales, England, Argentina and Australia etc. Away from home SA dont really scare anyone (except the ABs Shocked )

Yeah, you know that is just a BS clickbait comment.

The Springboks are coming, they have improved immensely since Allister Coetzee, still inconsistent, but soon they will scare the shyte out of many teams.


How many away games have they won this year? How can that possibly be a clickbait comment when SA have literally lost all away games? except for the great win v NZ


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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:43 pm

Im sorry to be so negative guys I really am....but England are going to get torn a new one by the AB's.

That was utterly awful!

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:47 pm

Massivly effective defensive shift by the forwards, missing just 3 of 121 attempted tackles.

The overall tackle rate of 91% highest I have seen from us in a long time. Only really spoiled by Slade missing 6 tackles. 

Guess this also shows that SA made it a bit too easy for us constantly trucking the ball into contact.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by englishborn on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:51 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sorry to be so negative guys I really am....but England are going to get torn a new one by the AB's.

That was utterly awful!

So convinced you told us twice? Very Happy

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:52 pm

I agree England did defend well

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Hoonercat on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:52 pm

Considering the inexperience in the England pack and the drubbing they took in the first half, they showed real heart to come out in the second half and take the game.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Taylorman on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 5:52 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sorry to be so negative guys I really am....but England are going to get torn a new one by the AB's.

That was utterly awful!

Curry went off injured but was out of his depth in this anyway. I wouldnt start him next week. Didnt expect much from Shields and didnt get it. Have never thought he was test quality.

ABs have specifically prepared for this and Ireland and havent played anywhere near as badly as either of those sides tonight for years so its certainly theres to lose. Unfortunately for England they get the returning props, hookers and Retallick for this match, injuries well in hand to this point.

Awful game though. All I can see England doing next week is trying to skirt around the outsides with May and co and hope Farrell gets a few kicks awarded.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:01 pm

Against the AB's I'd be going...

1. Moon
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Shields
7. Wilson
8. Mercer

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Te'o
13. Slade
14. Ashton
15. Daly

16. George 17. Sinkler 18. Hepburn 19. Lawes (is he back?) 20. ? 21. Care 22. Loz 23. Nowell

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by lostinwales on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:02 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:This view doesn't look like a tackle

https://twitter.com/SUNSHINENICK/status/1058765350031015937

Think we are lucky that view didn't come up on the screen.

No way is that a red though- and the arms are moving up so its ambiguous - 'clumsy' rather than deliberate.

I am not saying that is what happened, Farrell is quite capable of making cheap shots, but it is a way that incident could be read.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by mid_gen on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:10 pm

Genuinely baffled by anyone that objects to Farrell's tackle on replay.

At full speed I thought it was high, but on replay, no problem. Perfectly legit tackle. Arms wrapped, fine.

You penalise that tackle you might as well just be play touch.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Cumbrian on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:11 pm

I put it on the main England thread but Daly just didn't look good at full back. I have been shouted down in the past, but Daly got beat to pretty much every high ball in attack, he showed poor positional play, no instinct for attack and just looked uncomfortable throughout.

I don't get what Te'o brings, he seems like a lump that kills our attack dead. Slade didn't look amazing either, but in retrospect he didn't have much to work with.

I nearly swore the house down at the end because I was convinced that Farrell had screwed us at the end. What a stupid thing to do, lucky boy.

I can't help but think we were a bit lucky (despite the admirable grit shown) and I think the All Blacks could tear us a new one.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by englishborn on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:20 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I put it on the main England thread but Daly just didn't look good at full back.  I have been shouted down in the past, but Daly got beat to pretty much every high ball in attack, he showed poor positional play, no instinct for attack and just looked uncomfortable throughout.

I don't get what Te'o brings, he seems like a lump that kills our attack dead.  Slade didn't look amazing either, but in retrospect he didn't have much to work with.

I nearly swore the house down at the end because I was convinced that Farrell had screwed us at the end.  What a stupid thing to do, lucky boy.

I can't help but think we were a bit lucky (despite the admirable grit shown) and I think the All Blacks could tear us a new one.

I agree Daly is not shining in FB right now and needs a club run there to make a claim to be first choice, but right now who else would you put there? Ashton has played a lot there but would you trust his kicking? though attacking would likely be more lively.

When it opened up Te'o started to show some signs but not one currently to make an attacking difference when the team is going in reverse up front.

Apart from the almost penalty Farrell had a very good game.

Honestly I dont think the ABs will destroy us, they will win but I will be surprised by anything over 15 points winning margin.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Cumbrian on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:36 pm

I hope you are right, perhaps we will be okay, SA seem to be our arch nemesis from a forward power point of view. NZ will be more dynamic but not as powerful, so we may absorb their game better.

I don't know about Farrell, he was stood so far behind the gainline that everything was easily telegraphed. I would rather Ford at 10, he challenges the gainline at keeps defences guessing.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by englishborn on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:39 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I hope you are right, perhaps we will be okay, SA seem to be our arch nemesis from a forward power point of view.  NZ will be more dynamic but not as powerful, so we may absorb their game better.

I don't know about Farrell, he was stood so far behind the gainline that everything was easily telegraphed.  I would rather Ford at 10, he challenges the gainline at keeps defences guessing.

For a team as dominate up front as the Boks Farrell was better choice than Ford as he defends his channel much better and his game management is more confident. Against the ABs I think we can afford Ford to start as we will not (hopefully) be on the back foot so much and thus less penalties given away.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 6:48 pm

I'm never good at team ratings, but thought May, Kruis and Wilson had good notably games. Given that there were concerns about the form of Ben Youngs, he handled himself well enough. I was a bit concerned when Jones took Nowell off for Ashton, as Nowell had looked busy, and I fancied his workrate. I think Jones felt we were beginning to make more line breaks, and thought Ashton might just have the right instincts to get on the end of one of them.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Poorfour on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:00 pm

theslosty wrote:I get that it's always easy to focus on the decision made at the end of the game, and that England could well still have won...


but honestly, I have seen red cards given in European games lately that were not as dangerous as that Farrell hit. Baffling call

This was a ref who earlier in the game had waved on a clear shoulder to the head as “just a collision”. It would have been inconsistent to penalise a far more marginal tackle.

I like refs to be hard on player safety issues. But if they can’t referee them properly, they can at least be consistent in being lenient.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by lostinwales on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:02 pm

englishborn wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:I put it on the main England thread but Daly just didn't look good at full back.  I have been shouted down in the past, but Daly got beat to pretty much every high ball in attack, he showed poor positional play, no instinct for attack and just looked uncomfortable throughout.

I don't get what Te'o brings, he seems like a lump that kills our attack dead.  Slade didn't look amazing either, but in retrospect he didn't have much to work with.

I nearly swore the house down at the end because I was convinced that Farrell had screwed us at the end.  What a stupid thing to do, lucky boy.

I can't help but think we were a bit lucky (despite the admirable grit shown) and I think the All Blacks could tear us a new one.

I agree Daly is not shining in FB right now and needs a club run there to make a claim to be first choice, but right now who else would you put there? Ashton has played a lot there but would you trust his kicking? though attacking would likely be more lively.

When it opened up Te'o started to show some signs but not one currently to make an attacking difference when the team is going in reverse up front.

Apart from the almost penalty Farrell had a very good game.

Honestly I dont think the ABs will destroy us, they will win but I will be surprised by anything over 15 points winning margin.

according to the stats Teo had 8 runs for 7 m.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Mr Bounce on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:24 pm

I think that we're forgetting a couple of things here: This is an England team that has been decimated by injuries to key players and they've just come off a dreadful run of results. They've faced up against a South Africa team who have just beaten the All Blacks. In New Zealand. That's no easy task. We have had to rely on young and inexperienced International Players.

Granted, it wasn't pretty, but the team did not crack and toughed it out against a constant barrage of South African muscle. Don't criticise England because of what could have happened if not for the SA mistakes. That's down to SA. I am pleased that they had enough nous to cross the finish line just in front. Well played Mark Wilson, Jonny May, Jack Nowell and a special mention to Ben Moon, who was clearly enjoying himself out there. Enjoy the win.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Biltong on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:26 pm

mid_gen wrote:Genuinely baffled by anyone that objects to Farrell's tackle on replay.

At full speed I thought it was high, but on replay, no problem. Perfectly legit tackle. Arms wrapped, fine.

You penalise that tackle you might as well just be play touch.

Mate, if that was a wrapped arms tackle then your interpretation of wrap is deeply skewed
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Biltong on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:29 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I think that we're forgetting a couple of things here: This is an England team that has been decimated by injuries to key players and they've just come off a dreadful run of results. They've faced up against a South Africa team who have just beaten the All Blacks. In New Zealand. That's no easy task. We have had to rely on young and inexperienced International Players.

Granted, it wasn't pretty, but the team did not crack and toughed it out against a constant barrage of South African muscle. Don't criticise England because of what could have happened if not for the SA mistakes. That's down to SA. I am pleased that they had enough nous to cross the finish line just in front. Well played Mark Wilson, Jonny May, Jack Nowell and a special mention to Ben Moon, who was clearly enjoying himself out there. Enjoy the win.

There was no nous, Farrel made his kicks while SA threw away their opportunities.

Thank your lucky stars for the win and move on.

In the greater scheme of things this was a horrible match ,taking anything positive out of that match for either English or SA fans is just fooling yourself.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by ebop on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:40 pm

Watching England play rugby is truly painful. What else can be said about that game. Well done England kicking 4 penalties.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:49 pm

ebop wrote:Watching England play rugby is truly painful. What else can be said about that game. Well done England kicking 4 penalties.

Any more painful than SA?

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by stub on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:52 pm

LondonTiger, regarding Sinckler (can’t get the iPad to quote you) - yes agree that he was better in the 2nd half and was referring to his 2 or 3 bursts in attack which I enjoyed.

Perhaps though, on reflection, me saying impressive was over-egging things a bit.

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Cyril on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:53 pm

It’s good to see Biltong going back on his earlier optimism. That’s 2 on 2 now. Sit down

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by ebop on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:54 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
ebop wrote:Watching England play rugby is truly painful. What else can be said about that game. Well done England kicking 4 penalties.

Any more painful than SA?
Yes, England are a very painful watch, toothpick in the eyeball painful. SA at least scored a try and have players that do things that make you go to the edge of your seat. England, well, it’s kick and clap stuff.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by kingelderfield on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:56 pm

Lots flair from Farrell.........

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by Heaf on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:57 pm

toothpick in the eye yet you keep doing it - hmmmm ....

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by stub on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:58 pm

I thought May and Nowell showed some flair...

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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

Post by ebop on Sat 03 Nov 2018, 7:59 pm

Can’t comment if I don’t watch the game Heaf. Well done England though. Good D and showed some grit. Scrum ain’t much chop. The ABs will have some fun there next week.
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Re: England vs South Africa - 1st Quilter International

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