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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 07 Nov 2018, 5:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:He doesn't have to 'prove his innocence', that's not how the justice system in this country works.

But it's how the world intends it to work.................... it's probably called neo-socialism - ooh, sex-Y!.  
Anti establishment thought crimes to be punishable by no trial and a bullet down some cavernous prison complex dedicated to 're-education' of political dissidents. OK

Sex crimes as well? I don't see many people one here leaping to Weinstein's defence.
Yep. I would, until and unless he's convicted. Otherwise it's just hearsay and rumour.

So would Arron Banks
Meaning?
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 10:44 pm

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Samo wrote:The only way No Deal happens now is if it goes to a second referendum.

Completely untrue.

You havent read anything thats already been said have you?  Just bring your head out the sand now and then to say your piece then away back down again.

I don't think you understand the difference between a motion (not binding) and an Act of Parliament (binding). Grieve's amendment does nothing to alter the no-deal situation that the UK is currently heading for. I'm sorry you struggle to understand this, but it really isn't that complex. Here's the politically neutral 'Full Fact' website:

Does this mean “no deal” is dead?

No (despite what some newspaper headlines say). The basics have not changed: the UK will leave the EU without a deal on March 29 by default, unless a deal of some kind has been voted through by parliament (or the EU have approved an extension of the Article 50 period, or potentially if Article 50 has been revoked.)


https://fullfact.org/europe/what-do-governments-brexit-vote-defeats-mean/

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 05 Dec 2018, 11:14 pm

I truly don’t believe any of them really think a no-deal is better for England*. But their careers? Or them and their mates?

*i really doubt most of them care about Scotland, Wales and Norn Ireland

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:09 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Have the vote, lose, and then walk away saying I did my best, now one of you lot can have a go. Then relax and watch as they make an even bigger balls up of it.
Indeed. If nothing else, actually make those nay-sayers put their metaphorical money where their mouths are.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 12:37 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I truly don’t believe any of them really think a no-deal is better for England*. But their careers? Or them and their mates?

*i really doubt most of them care about Scotland, Wales and Norn Ireland

Nobody ever does. It's the greatest recycled joke circling the planet that the world cares about Wales, Scotland and Norn Iron. They're going to be the first landmasses to be obliterated by the UNs new experimental climate-saving population-control mini Nukes of Worldly Love.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 4:48 pm

This vote won't happen Tuesday...Looking at the figures she is gone on Wednesday if it does...

More can kicking..

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 5:07 pm

That's about the only thing she's good at.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 9:22 pm

Well you have to cut her some slack...it was a poison can she was given.

What's that line Batman used in the old 60s movie?: "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb"

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 9:40 pm

Not cutting her any slack...Took GE17 for granted and has repented at leisure.

Her bed...

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 10:23 am

This can of poison - it doesn't have her name on it. She can put it down and leave the stage. Let a Brexiter pick it up, if they have the balls.

She could have made it plain to the public and well as MPs months ago that any deal would leave both sides dissatisfied. She knew the day would come when it would be known, but she was content just to delay it. And it's rich in the extreme for her now to appeal to the country to come together when she's spent two years telling us all that 'Brexit means Brexit' and that the 48% need to suck it up.

She could have been honest from the start. She could have been conciliatory from the start. She chose not to be either, and so I have no sympathy for her. Her tone even now most of the time is haughty and teacher-knows-best. Well f*ck that, and f*ck her.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 10:52 am

Look the NI Backstop was always going to be the EUs trump card. They want to extend the Leaving period indefinitely until that magic happens when the UK electorate decide they just don't want to leave anymore.

That age dynamic gets mentioned often between leavers and stayers. So waiting it out until the age demographic changes was always the plan.

And perhaps May was in on the plan. That's the more worrying aspect if you're a UK voter - that the PM would claim that her mind was set on one outcome - giving the Majority what they voted for - but planning the legal route to eventually deny them that result. There is no way she didn't understand the advice she was given about the meaning of 'indefinite'.

That's deception politics hard at work as regularly alluded to by Mr EU himself, Juncker.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 1:08 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:This can of poison - it doesn't have her name on it. She can put it down and leave the stage. Let a Brexiter pick it up, if they have the balls.

She could have made it plain to the public and well as MPs months ago that any deal would leave both sides dissatisfied. She knew the day would come when it would be known, but she was content just to delay it. And it's rich in the extreme for her now to appeal to the country to come together when she's spent two years telling us all that 'Brexit means Brexit' and that the 48% need to suck it up.

She could have been honest from the start. She could have been conciliatory from the start. She chose not to be either, and so I have no sympathy for her. Her tone even now most of the time is haughty and teacher-knows-best. Well f*ck that, and f*ck her.

Illegal campaigning by leave.eu, Cambridge Analytica et al. She's had an easy get out - to at least go to a point where things can be more sensibly reassessed. The fact that she has not is telling. The fact that neither she nor magic grandad ever mention it is worrying.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 2:23 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:She could have made it plain to the public and well as MPs months ago that any deal would leave both sides dissatisfied.

Surely that was obvious from the start.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 2:42 pm

Well yes. She'll have known for months that the day would come when she'd have to upset one wing of her party. Instead of doing it early, getting it over with, and trying to build support for the a compromise, she was happy to put it off for as long as she could. She didn't have to do that.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 3:26 pm

See your point, but she probably would have been accused of moving too quickly Smile

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 4:30 pm

May's ability to kick cans down the road exceeds even JC's ability to fence sit.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 4:35 pm

Well she's got the shoes for it.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 5:10 pm

It is clear to me that the Tories have not fully grasped what Brexit and the vote for it means. They have made massive concessions all to stop a hard border going up in Northern Ireland. Ermm sorry but yes it is not what people want but it is what happens if you leave the EU. The hard border should have been accepted straight away between Northern Ireland and the Republic and something tells me talks would have been a heck of a lot less complicated and the final deal would have resembled a true Brexit rather than we have now - a fudged effort more like Brexit-lite.
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 5:52 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is clear to me that the Tories have not fully grasped what Brexit and the vote for it means. They have made massive concessions all to stop a hard border going up in Northern Ireland. Ermm sorry but yes it is not what people want but it is what happens if you leave the EU. The hard border should have been accepted straight away between Northern Ireland and the Republic and something tells me talks would have been a heck of a lot less complicated and the final deal would have resembled a true Brexit rather than we have now - a fudged effort more like Brexit-lite.

The common travel area has existed long before the EU was formed.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 6:28 pm

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It is clear to me that the Tories have not fully grasped what Brexit and the vote for it means. They have made massive concessions all to stop a hard border going up in Northern Ireland. Ermm sorry but yes it is not what people want but it is what happens if you leave the EU. The hard border should have been accepted straight away between Northern Ireland and the Republic and something tells me talks would have been a heck of a lot less complicated and the final deal would have resembled a true Brexit rather than we have now - a fudged effort more like Brexit-lite.

The common travel area has existed long before the EU was formed.

So? What we will have is two countries bordering each other, one in the EU, one not. It's almost as if the Leave voters didn't really think about all the consequences.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 6:34 pm

The longer May takes to drop the MV...The more desperate it will look when she does..

Staggered if it goes ahead.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 6:34 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It is clear to me that the Tories have not fully grasped what Brexit and the vote for it means. They have made massive concessions all to stop a hard border going up in Northern Ireland. Ermm sorry but yes it is not what people want but it is what happens if you leave the EU. The hard border should have been accepted straight away between Northern Ireland and the Republic and something tells me talks would have been a heck of a lot less complicated and the final deal would have resembled a true Brexit rather than we have now - a fudged effort more like Brexit-lite.

The common travel area has existed long before the EU was formed.

So? What we will have is two countries bordering each other, one in the EU, one not. It's almost as if the Leave voters didn't really think about all the consequences.

Explained time and time again. Take your head out of the sandpit.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 6:47 pm

Well I think now it is clear the May deal will not get passed by Westminster.

One thing I am sure of is that the EU do not want a No Deal either so they will be open to more talks to thrash out a new deal.
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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 7:14 pm

Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It is clear to me that the Tories have not fully grasped what Brexit and the vote for it means. They have made massive concessions all to stop a hard border going up in Northern Ireland. Ermm sorry but yes it is not what people want but it is what happens if you leave the EU. The hard border should have been accepted straight away between Northern Ireland and the Republic and something tells me talks would have been a heck of a lot less complicated and the final deal would have resembled a true Brexit rather than we have now - a fudged effort more like Brexit-lite.

The common travel area has existed long before the EU was formed.

So? What we will have is two countries bordering each other, one in the EU, one not. It's almost as if the Leave voters didn't really think about all the consequences.

Explained time and time again. Take your head out of the sandpit.

Says the person who would welcome a no deal Brexit picard

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 8:08 pm

And it is also quite apparent that this deal reeks of those that negotiated/had a say in it. No hard border (a desire of the DUP) and a modicum of connection still with the EU (May was a remainer and still is). I think the Tories reaped what they sowed here. There should have been a larger degree of cross-party discussions for such a critical deal. Last week Plaid Cymru's leader was contacted when the deal was announced and he said it was the first time Westminster contacted him about Brexit - shocking. The SNP have not been listened to either who are the biggest party and governing a pro-remain Scotland.

It bugs me a heck of a lot too hearing Tories bleat on about how hard May has worked on this deal. Whoopee doo. We all work hard for a pittance and in any case hard work does not excuse an incompetent deal.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 9:00 am

But we have just had 2 weeks of May telling us this is the only and best deal she could get..

Now we just let her call off a vote she can't win and say "Okey dokey I will go back and try to get a better deal"..

REALLY ????..Give me strength..

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 10:55 am

Seems to me that lots of frustrated people want some kind of weird scenario where one boxer wins a fight but because the other boxer is distraught, the adjudicators are asked to go into a backroom and come up with a plan where they declare both boxers the winner.

That's why there is this long drawn out nothingness - you can't say to the winning boxer that he didn't win.  So instead you want him to accept a degree of loss to help the opponent out of his suicidal depression.

It's called a fix.

At this stage, the only sane route is Leave without a Deal - then negotiate a fair trading deal with EU post-exit.  Germans are still gonna want to sell their Mercs.  Have no fear.  The UK is some 60 million people compacted close together like sardines, a lovely juicy market collective of low transportation miles + profit potential.
Trade is trade...is trade is trade.

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Post by Hero on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 11:48 am

Trade is trade, but the EU is the EU. To allow the UK to come out of Brexit favourably and prosperous shows other dissenters there's an alternative. And whilst there will still be trade it'll always be on their terms being the bigger fish. Headquarters will move, instead of gaining strength in a global market we'll be increasingly further down the pecking order.
To leave without a deal is the most insane route.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 12:01 pm

Dissenters already know there is an alternative.  The cat is out of the bag.  The present construct isn't working and will only see tensions increase over the coming years, not decrease.
The world is moving again and nobody really knows where it'll settle.  Safest place to be in my opinion is isolated and insulated and preparing for what the world might be in 10 or 15 years time.
European Army...European army.... European army.................................. it's all the rage lately - including directly from the mouth of Angela Merkel's successor.  Some folks seems desperate to protect their investments in the EU.... perhaps even by EU wide military suppression?

The world keeps repeating itself.............. warning.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 12:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:Dissenters already know there is an alternative.  The cat is out of the bag.  The present construct isn't working and will only see tensions increase over the coming years, not decrease.
The world is moving again and nobody really knows where it'll settle.  Safest place to be in my opinion is isolated and insulated and preparing for what the world might be in 10 or 15 years time.
European Army...European army.... European army.................................. it's all the rage lately - including directly from the mouth of Angela Merkel's successor.  Some folks seems desperate to protect their investments in the EU.... perhaps even by EU wide military suppression?

The world keeps repeating itself.............. warning.
Good Lord! Put the tinfoil away. If there's to be an EU army, it's because Trump's an A-hole and Russia is ruled by a mafia.
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Post by JuliusHMarx on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 12:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:Dissenters already know there is an alternative.  The cat is out of the bag.  The present construct isn't working and will only see tensions increase over the coming years, not decrease.
The world is moving again and nobody really knows where it'll settle.  Safest place to be in my opinion is isolated and insulated and preparing for what the world might be in 10 or 15 years time.
European Army...European army.... European army.................................. it's all the rage lately - including directly from the mouth of Angela Merkel's successor.  Some folks seems desperate to protect their investments in the EU.... perhaps even by EU wide military suppression?

The world keeps repeating itself.............. warning.

You've built your bunker already?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 10:26 pm

Looks like she is pulling the Vote...She dithers more than Gordon Brown.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 6:46 pm

The UK could have had a Brexit deal sown up perhaps weeks after Brexit was voted for but it didn't. Why? The hard border that is why. The UK couldn't/wouldn't give up the border set-up in Northern Ireland at present hence why Brexit quickly became Brexit-lite. Was a true Brexit ever a real possibility? I'd say definitely not which kind of makes the whole issue a sham and a complete waste of time, money and effort.
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Post by Hero on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 8:30 pm

But Duty said it was a breeze and he could sort it?

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 8:51 pm

Hero wrote:But Duty said it was a breeze and he could sort it?

No, he didn't. thumbsup

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Post by Samo on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 12:06 pm

ECJ confirms ruling that UK can revoke A50 without getting permission from the other EU27 first. Incase there was still any doubt that we werent a sovereign nation all along.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 12:21 pm

It's been a long gust of hot air trying to eject a sovereign nation out of a club it's people said it didn't want to be a member of.  That's some expression of sovereignty.  

"First you must say this...then you must do that....on or before this date.... then you must obey Europe in not creating a hard border between yourselves and an EU member.  You must allow unfettered access across said border for goods and people or................. we will stall and stall and stall and stall ("INDEFINITELY") until we get you to change your mind.

In short.............. you can agree to remain without any interference from any external EU nations (even though you caused many of them many millions in pre-planning for your leaving).... but you can't choose to leave on your terms."

Yep.  A brave new world and a lovely definition of sovereignty.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 12:26 pm

Of course we can leave on our own terms - with a no deal Brexit. But we don't want to do that because it would f* k us up badly.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 12:55 pm

Looks like the meaningful vote is off.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 1:16 pm

Hero wrote:But Duty said it was a breeze and he could sort it?

Duty said he'd read the entire 500+ page withdrawal agreement the day after it came out, too. He says a lot of things.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 1:58 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Hero wrote:But Duty said it was a breeze and he could sort it?

Duty said he'd read the entire 500+ page withdrawal agreement the day after it came out, too. He says a lot of things.

That you think such a thing is difficult says more about you, to be fair.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 1:59 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Looks like the meaningful vote is off.

Pantomime season.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 2:52 pm

I wonder what David Cameron's up to today.

The f*cker.

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 3:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Hero wrote:But Duty said it was a breeze and he could sort it?

Duty said he'd read the entire 500+ page withdrawal agreement the day after it came out, too. He says a lot of things.

That you think such a thing is difficult says more about you, to be fair.

I suppose living in the basement of your mum's house and being otherwise without gainful employment would offer you the time to read it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 10:19 am

She knew all last week she was going to lose this vote by a wide margin.....Beggars belief you would pull it 24 hours before...

Bless her but she really does need to go.....Beyond farce..

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 11:46 am

And what's worse, she clearly didn't think to check with anyone in Brussels that they were open to renegotiation before she cancelled the vote.

The damage being done to the reputation of the UK really is incalculable.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 3:07 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wonder what David Cameron's up to today.

The f*cker.
Sipping some Pimms? Punting on the Cam? Something equally useless, no doubt.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 3:12 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:She knew all last week she was going to lose this vote by a wide margin.....Beggars belief you would pull it 24 hours before...

Bless her but she really does need to go.....Beyond farce..
Not sure why she didn't face them all down and force them to vote it down. If I were her, I'd drop it all and ask one of those Brexiteer cretins to deal with it. It was quite funny really - the last week or so people have been saying "Postpone it; you can't win"; now she postpones it and all she gets is "You useless coward. Call that leading?". Seriously, she should walk away and let Fox, Ress-Moog, Johnson and Davies sort it out - if you thought May was laughable, wait until we get a load of those shysters.

We get the politicians and politics we deserve. We're screwed, and we merit every minute of it.
navyblueshorts
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Brexit - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 4:52 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Hero wrote:But Duty said it was a breeze and he could sort it?

Duty said he'd read the entire 500+ page withdrawal agreement the day after it came out, too. He says a lot of things.

That you think such a thing is difficult says more about you, to be fair.

I suppose living in the basement of your mum's house and being otherwise without gainful employment would offer you the time to read it.

Perhaps, but as neither of those conditions apply to me, it's decidedly irrelevant.

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Brexit - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 5:58 pm

Duty281 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Hero wrote:But Duty said it was a breeze and he could sort it?

Duty said he'd read the entire 500+ page withdrawal agreement the day after it came out, too. He says a lot of things.

That you think such a thing is difficult says more about you, to be fair.

I suppose living in the basement of your mum's house and being otherwise without gainful employment would offer you the time to read it.

Perhaps, but as neither of those conditions apply to me, it's decidedly irrelevant.

Sounds just like what someone without gainful employment living in the basement of their Mum’s house would say.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 6:07 pm

Don't think my mother's house even has a basement, in truth.

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Brexit - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit

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