England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Nov 2018, 8:54 am

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 4:29 pm

Just my way of highlighting he won player of the series by in part playing 7. Badly. Kinda makes me question why and who was voting! I also obviously find it hard to believe he'll jump above the guy who was playing 6 and was picked ahead of robshaw. And indeed robshaw. And lawes.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 5:05 pm

He didn't have a great first half against Japan like most of the side. Although he did have a superb 3.5 games, that's why he won. As much as you dislike him...the Wilson train is gathering speed choo cho!!!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 5:09 pm

Lol. It's like he's a Saracen and you're....

I don't dislike him at all. Just Jones w9nt pick him ahead of the 3 I mentioned above.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 6:35 pm

One thing running in Wilson's favour is a good injury record, something that few England back row options share currently.

Your chances of being selected increase massively if you're available to play rugby.

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Post by Pie on Sat 08 Dec 2018, 7:13 am

king_carlos wrote:One thing running in Wilson's favour is a good injury record, something that few England back row options share currently.

Your chances of being selected increase massively if you're available to play rugby.


I think this is one of the most under rated comments in the history of rugby commentary. Congratulations sir. clap

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 3:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just my way of highlighting he won player of the series by in part playing 7. Badly. Kinda makes me question why and who was voting! I also obviously find it hard to believe he'll jump above the guy who was playing 6 and was picked ahead of robshaw. And indeed robshaw. And lawes.

7&1/2, possibly picked because Robshaw was and still is injured and so was Lawes for the fist two games, so not hard to jump ahead.

8 & 7 are very interchangeable these days and most good 6's can play 8 to a high standard if they are of the Wilson physique type and not the more open play types.

".........6 and was picked ahead of robshaw. And indeed robshaw. And lawes..

I don't dislike him at all. Just Jones w9nt pick him ahead of the 3 I mentioned above."


You can't have two Robshaws and Lawes will be at lock not 6 unless we get a lot of injuries.

You are looking with your black and gold glasses on, you should try adding a bit of green, then you would have some great colours.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 4:50 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Miaow

You've just said there what I alluded to above. So many fans seem to be looking for the NEXT star incumbent of a position before the previous one just ahead of him has even played 10 games or so...let alone become a big experienced international player.

Wilson and Shields have covered the 6 position this summer with Wilson ALSO covering 8 due to a lack of other options.
They have played very well and its only right if they are continuing to perform for club (as Mark Wilson will be) that they are given another shot for England.

However already, we're talking about Willis (who is a cracking prospect), Ted Hill who's played 2/3 games for Worcester and is 19yo or something, and Dombrandt who ive never heard of.

Mercer was Captain of the England under 20's, is a cracking prospect and even he hasn't even made the England starters yet.

We always seem to be looking over the horizon for the next.

We know Underhill is the "potentially" long term future at 7 (though he will have one or two challenging him), whilst I don't forsee Wilson OR Shields being long term options. However they are type that will give Underhill good balance to continue to establish his game on the international stage.

Once he is established, after the world cup, we can look to bring in one of the young powerhouse 6's in a settled back row.
Hopefully Mercer will have made that 8 spot his own, or Billy V will not be on the physio table anymore.
Or Callum Chick has finally shown how good he is...  Wink  Very Happy

Talk about players like Dombrandt is nonsense. Last year they were talking up Marcus Smith who is now playing second string to a ten who would themselves be third in line at a top club.


By the way I thing young Smith might be international class but we will only know in two or three years time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 5:18 pm

Im not sure whose colours balck and gold are supposed to be? Wasps who i don't support? Me bigging up lawes who I don't rate at 6 though he did play well there this autumn? But like i said I'll happily be proved correct come Ireland.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 5:43 pm

Love the humility 7.5.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 6:52 pm

No point in me lying lt. Think it's pretty clear that's Jones' preferred options. I'd be mightily surprised should he suddenly start to pick Wilson over those guys. Wilson may have pushed himself up a bit at 8 but the way Jones brought Hughes straight into the squad I doubt that too. Hey you lot may have the chance to rub this in.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 7:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Im not sure whose colours balck and gold are supposed to be? Wasps who i don't support? Me bigging up lawes who I don't rate at 6 though he did play well there this autumn? But like i said I'll happily be proved correct come Ireland.

I seem to remember (can't be bothered to trawl back) that you once pinned your colours to the mast saying you were pushing Shields due to club loyalty. I suspect that you are not a Hurricanes fan, so who does that leave?

With regard to club colours, you do not KNOW who plays in black and gold? How much Prem rugby do you actually watch?


Just to enlighten you, it is Wasps that play in Black with some gold depending on the kit of the season.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 7:20 pm

Nope wasn't me. Nearest club I support is Donny knights but that's only cos it's at the end of the village I live in. From Middlesbrough hence it feels too weird to support anyone from a different town. I always considered wasps to be yellow!
I do think shields is the best choice at 6 though. And I think he will continue to be picked there.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 7:35 pm

So you know who plays in black, green and gold then?

A Smoggie then?

My family all come from between you and the Mackems in Co. Durham

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 7:42 pm

I do not know. Smoggy indeed. If you ever see me bigging up Geoff parling it's partially because he went to school in the village across the river. And cos he was a lion.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 7:43 pm

The one and only Northampton Saints

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 7:51 pm

Ah. Of course.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 8:35 pm

As if Wilson and Robshaw don't create enough 'marmite' opinions, now Geoff Parling has been shoehorned into the mix like a debate hand grenade!

Some say he was the last bastion of a dying breed of technically astute second rows who make up for lack of brute force with set-piece nous. Some believe he was a Prem standard second row who gained an international career by virtue of Tom Youngs being able to throw a line-out to him. Either way that tap tackle was wondrous.

Just to keep the handbags going:

Is Brian Ashton right about Iain Balshaw being a stronger full back than winger?

Should Jon Golding be starting ahead of Tim Payne?

Could Ayoola Erinle's inability to catch complement Mike Tindall's fear of passing?

Could rumours of Phil Vickery retiring damage England's RWC preparation?

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Post by Mr Bounce on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 9:21 pm

Vickery's thinking of retiring??!!! Erm

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 8:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:No point in me lying lt. Think it's pretty clear that's Jones' preferred options. I'd be mightily surprised should he suddenly start to pick Wilson over those guys. Wilson may have pushed himself up a bit at 8 but the way Jones brought Hughes straight into the squad I doubt that too. Hey you lot may have the chance to rub this in.

I agree that Eddie has a fixation about Shields, despite him not yet having a good game for England or Wasps. Now we all know just how much store Eddie puts in club performances, so the likes of Shields and Youngs could well be excused lousy club form. Wilson could not have done much more to push his case, and on performance alone should be in the 6Ns squad.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 8:33 am

Thanks KC. Just triggered my Tim Payne PTSD

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 10:10 am

Just can't see him ousting Hughes.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 3:38 pm

Wilson has looked better at 8 for England than Hughes ever has to be fair, although Wilson is more likely to start 6.

If we get Billy back for the 6N, we wont neccessarily need Hughes benching either with Wilson covering 8.

Good options to have.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 4:31 pm

Depends on who is back and available come the 6 nations. If we're bare bones Wilson from the bench is a good option. Simmonds is out for the season probably. Hughes. Robshaw should be back then. Curry is an option. Possibly one or 2 of the young bolters or of course lawes as I expect all the locks should be back.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 6:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends on who is back and available come the 6 nations. If we're bare bones Wilson from the bench is a good option. Simmonds is out for the season probably. Hughes. Robshaw should be back then. Curry is an option. Possibly one or 2 of the young bolters or of course lawes as I expect all the locks should be back.

I suspect that Lawes is the first lock on the team sheet these days. Launchbury, slightly bigger but not close to being as good in the lineout or at making the yards both hard and open. Itoje, now a penalty magnet, Kruise, yet to show the form he once had.

Itoje and Lawes are I think his favourite pairing, both offer a lot more than just a lock, the other slack the all round ability of that pairing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:09 pm

Much prefer Launchbury to lawes. Better in every way bar the lineout but them 2 and itoje would be my 3 locks. Not sure if one is a penalty machine some are dumb but he plays close to the line. Was the 2nd highest for England this autumn though.


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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:59 pm

No way is Launchbury better at everything other than lineout. Launchbury is a close quarters lock, Lawes  rangy open field lock.

Launchbury carries better in confined spaces, Lawes better in open field. Launchbury strong defensively on the fringes, Lawes better elsewhere. 

They complement each other well.



As to back row, to consign Wilson to maybe providing bench cover if everyone else is injured is extremely condescending. 

There are probably 6 spots available in the squad with Curry, Hughes, Mercer, Robshaw, Shields, Underhill, Vunipola & Wilson in contention.

Right now Vunipola (assuming fitness), Underhill, Wilson and Shields are in the box seat. 

Eddie has flirted with Mercer, but does not seem to trust him. Curry has slipped behind Underhill and is currently injured. Robshaw has a fight on his hands to get back into the Quins team. Hughes will be included for part of the 6Ns but will miss some due to another injury or suspension.

Wilson's form and versatility makes him a contender for the bench at least, irrespective of how many others are fit.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 8:39 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Thanks KC. Just triggered my Tim Payne PTSD

England vs Argentina, 2009:

1.Tim Payne
3.Duncan Bell

17.Paul Doran-Jones

Hug


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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 9:11 pm

king_carlos wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Thanks KC. Just triggered my Tim Payne PTSD

England vs Argentina, 2009:

1.Tim Payne
3.Duncan Bell

17.Paul Doran-Jones

Hug


To be fair, I don't remember them letting us down, but the shape of them reminded me of ten pin bowling pins.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 10:22 pm

I think Lawes was one of our best performing players over the AI full stop.

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Post by Cumbrian on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 10:26 pm

Reading back through the thread and I picked up on people talking about the almost instantaneous hype around Alex Dombrandt. Now bear with me. I started a new job earlier this year and I haven’t been able to follow the young stars the way I used to, but I didn’t have a clue who he was! After some research, I find Barnes calling for him to be in the England squad and his coaches taking the mickey out of his ‘rig’. I only watched highlights of Quins/Exeter game (he didn’t feature on them) and a video of him bullying school boys at Uni. What is the deal, is he actually any good? WalesOnline seems to be very wistful about his none Welshness.
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Post by king_carlos on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 11:21 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Reading back through the thread and I picked up on people talking about the almost instantaneous hype around Alex Dombrandt. Now bear with me. I started a new job earlier this year and I haven’t been able to follow the young stars the way I used to, but I didn’t have a clue who he was! After some research, I find Barnes calling for him to be in the England squad and his coaches taking the mickey out of his ‘rig’. I only watched highlights of Quins/Exeter game (he didn’t feature on them) and a video of him bullying school boys at Uni. What is the deal, is he actually any good? WalesOnline seems to be very wistful about his none Welshness.

To be quite frank I think a significant part of the hype is coming from him actually playing like a 'traditional blindside'. I.e. he carries and tackles hard. The same way most pundits wet their pants the second a 20 year old looks like a 'true openside'. I.e. if pundits didn't do that then blokes like Barnes would need to start making observations relevant to 2018 rugby rather than 1980's rugby to earn a living.

I hope Quins keep playing him at 6 and resist the opportunity to shoehorn him into 8 or lock for a lot of his matches. That happens all too often with big 6s.

That said he seems a talent and I really like how he plays. I'd take him at Tigers in a heartbeat that's for sure!

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 12 Dec 2018, 8:25 am

The Quins back row have been very good recently, with the abilities offered by Chisholm, Clifford and Dombrandt dovetailing nicely. Pundits love to push players early, and love even more to say "I told you so" when they are right ignoring the many times players do not kick on (Barnes was shouting about Lawes after two appearances, but was also a very early advocate of Erinle).

Dombrandt has had a good start to his first team career but it is early and despite my tongue in cheek comment earlier he could well be out of the side once Robshaw is fit.

Realistically one to watch and maybe a contender after RWC. However we know Eddie likes a wild card.

On that note, I see that Cokanasiga is now out for 6-8 weeks.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 2:17 pm

Im seriously not sure Robshaw should be automatically back in. He must be performing very well to oust Mark Wilson (from the Squad).


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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 2:30 pm

Robshaw isn't an 8 GF Whistle Whistle Whistle

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 2:46 pm

Exactly...Wilson is an 8, a 6 and a emergency 7 WPI Wink Very Happy Yahoo

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 2:50 pm

But he never started at 6 GF, surely it means he can't be considered there?!?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 2:55 pm

Your right Sarge.....in that case, sling him on the scrap heap. He's no good!!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 3:26 pm

A few of you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding points. Jones has consistently picked others over Wilson. It's unlikely to change. Wilson's best position is 6. He's not England's preferred choice there.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 9:19 pm

England do not have a preferred choice at 6 since Robshaw was dropped.

By getting a run of games, Wilson has been able to demonstrate that he can play international rugby to a good enough standard to be a genuine contender. His versatility means that his chances of making squads is even higher.

None of us know what Eddie will do for the 6Ns, but right now and even ignoring the injuries Wilson is more likely to be in the squad than not in it.

There will probably be 6 spots, and if all fit I see the chances of making it being:

Vunipola 100%
Shields, Underhill, Wilson 90%
Hughes 70%
Curry 60%
Mercer, Robshaw 50%

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 11:11 pm

LondonTiger wrote:England do not have a preferred choice at 6 since Robshaw was dropped.
I agree with you that selection is open for that position but would like to be a pedant on another matter. Robshaw was unavailable, not dropped. When he was last available, Jones picked him.

If Robshaw does now find himself surplus to requirements, then it won't be the first time a player has lost his place in the pecking order after injury gave others an opportunity. Steve Borthwick can tell him all about it, since that's what happened to him in 2010.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 6:38 am

Robshaw was dropped after T1 in SA, recalled for T3 when Shields was injured I thought?

That we do not have a settled back row has largely been down to injuries. It would be good to have a run where there are less injury issues.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 6:49 am

Robshaw is behind Wilson, Underhill and Shields for the flank positions. He was really poor in the Summer, he's not going to walk back in to a winning squad.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:55 am

Last time Eddie selected the same back row for 2 matches in a row was the Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes combo that face France and Scotland in the 6Ns.

He picked the same back row for the 3rd consecutive match against Australia in 2017 - Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes


Robshaw (in two positions) and Hughes are the common factor but probably will only be used going forward if there are injuries.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 12:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:England do not have a preferred choice at 6 since Robshaw was dropped.

By getting a run of games, Wilson has been able to demonstrate that he can play international rugby to a good enough standard to be a genuine contender. His versatility means that his chances of making squads is even higher.

None of us know what Eddie will do for the 6Ns, but right now and even ignoring the injuries Wilson is more likely to be in the squad than not in it.

There will probably be 6 spots, and if all fit I see the chances of making it being:

Vunipola 100%
Shields, Underhill, Wilson 90%
Hughes 70%
Curry 60%
Mercer, Robshaw 50%

The odds anyone would give on all of Billy V, Hughes and Underhill being fit for selection at the same time will sadly have just as big an influence.

I hope Underhill and Curry are both fit for the warm-ups so they can push for selection. The difference they make to the pack by leading the defence is huge. Two players who dominate tackles rather than complete them.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 12:31 pm

Mercer I think is the only player not have missed games recently due to injury (though Wilson was just a 1 game niggle rest)

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 1:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Mercer I think is the only player not have missed games recently due to injury (though Wilson was just a 1 game niggle rest)

Wilson was ruled out with an ear infection rather than rugby related injury wasn't he?

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Post by Pie on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 4:49 pm

Will old guard like Robshaw, Cole Haskell, Launchbury etc have a look in for RWC?

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 5:13 pm

Pie wrote:Will old guard like Robshaw, Cole Haskell, Launchbury etc have a look in for RWC?

Launchbury if he's fit will definitely go. Cole and Haskell almost certainly won't. Robshaw is anyone's guess, but lets just say he got injured at just the wrong time.


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 6:45 pm

At 28 Launchbury is hardy old guard. As said by LIW he will go if fit.

Cole will not go imo. He could be playing better than ever and still would not go as his game does not have what EJ is looking for.

Haskell no way. Robshaw 50/50 for me with those odds dropping all the time he is injured

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 3:26 am

Agree with that summary LT. Ironically, Cole is looking better than he has for years for me.

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