Is New Zealand’s back row their Achilles heal.

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Post by stevetynant on Tue 20 Nov 2018, 8:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

I’m starting to think this is the poorest All Blak backrow I can ever remember.Kieran Reid is one of the greats as far as I’m concerned but he looks like he’s running on empty at the moment. Savea is an impact player to me and I can’t even remember who was playing 6 as they were pretty much anonymous. All Blak backrows in times gone by were the most frightening part of their team but now very average,I’m not sure in a world team now who would make it even onto the subs bench. I know Cane will hopefully be back for the World Cup but genuine question to our New Zealand friends who’s waiting in the wings? Where’s the next McCaw, Michael Jones or Kronfield coming from?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:07 pm

Well there we go then. Nz are back to not caring just like Chicago.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:09 pm

alanmackie6 wrote:People are reading different things into different scenario`s player of the year,team of the year,coach of the year every things turning up green Hug BUT look at the matches played

Ireland- Italy.Argentina,USA,and NZ,4wins out of 4
NZ -Australia,Japan,England,Ireland and Italy,apparently they scraped past Italy
no tv coverage available to me.
NZ v Ireland the AB`s made one forced change for Ireland,they weren't on the same team sheet.Ireland planned to win for bragging rights and won well,BUT NZ made
no attempt.To select a team to win the match,it would have been far different side
don`t say it would win bu t it would have been a different match.

As to Irelands victories Nz Maori would have seen them off bar Ireland and with

no restrictions of style of play may well have won that to.

I don`t see AB`s winning a third on the trot RWC but can`t see Ireland winning it either.

Did you not know rugby is played in June and the 6 Nations played in March. I guess they were just warm up games for the AIs. Add in that the game Ireland lost the player of the year didn't start. Both BB and Sexton faced games they were losing with the game over. One pulled out the win, the other kicked dropped goals 2 months later.

6N/RC
IRE 5w
NZ 5w 1l

Summer
IRE 2w 1l
NZ 3w.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:18 pm

Tman so what I got from your post was when you play a physical game against the ABs you are more likely to win which is why SA is your biggest rival.  If holding the ball with one off runners wasn't successful the Boks would have stopped being your rival years ago.

After SA were so successful at beating NZ (3 in a row) by being aggressive with the NZ wingers the rules were changed so that the NZ wingers could score tries.  Now that People like Farrell have discovered that rush defence might we see the offside line moved back like in League to allow the wingers to score tries.

SA of 2007-2009 were like England of 2003. Brilliant team but all reached their peak at the same time and retired.  It might surprise you how many of Ireland's 23 were 26 or younger.  Probably 2/3s of the 23 will be there in 2023.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:22 pm

Emack knows as much about NZ rugby as I do about the Mongolian tiddlywinks national side

I hear they are the best in the world at tiddlywinks, so am claiming to support them over on the tiddlywinks forum. Of course I have as much connection to Mongolia as Alan does to NZ so it must be fine.

When Mongolia loses to Ireland at tiddlywinks, you better bet your bottom dollar that I'll be there to point out that we left our best flickers at home and the Mongolian Mongos (the B team) would definitely have beaten Ireland if "we" had tried

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:27 pm

Ha.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:41 pm

Brendan wrote:Tman so what I got from your post was when you play a physical game against the ABs you are more likely to win which is why SA is your biggest rival.  If holding the ball with one off runners wasn't successful the Boks would have stopped being your rival years ago.

After SA were so successful at beating NZ (3 in a row) by being aggressive with the NZ wingers the rules were changed so that the NZ wingers could score tries.  Now that People like Farrell have discovered that rush defence might we see the offside line moved back like in League to allow the wingers to score tries.

SA of 2007-2009 were like England of 2003. Brilliant team but all reached their peak at the same time and retired.  It might surprise you how many of Ireland's 23 were 26 or younger.  Probably 2/3s of the 23 will be there in 2023.

Players retire every year and in 2010 boks still had their main side, du preez probably the only i recall. They still had burger, matfield, bakkies, jdv etc.

But you make a very good point, the best Ive seen for a while.

If the rush defence continues to be what ties matches up, stops the ball being moved in space and everyone goes that route the rules just might have to change, simply because rugby can never become one big bash for 80 minutes out in the middle ehich, and I agree withbAlans point, if the ABs chose to target Ireland in that way, they could have done. Picked the biggest hairiest brutes and smash Ireland up the middle. Win? Maybe, maybe not. But at least we know we have more than one way of skinning a cat. Ireland dont. And historu has shown that predictability is the ABs best ways of beating sides. Dont know how many times Ive heard... well we didnt expect that, ABs were on a different level today.

They chose not to do another dublin, mainly because Hansen wants to see what the ABs, not the Irish, have at the moment in terms of their own gameplan. Winning as first prio is more important next year.

Next year you bet Hansen will adopt the Dublin of two years approach if he needs to, even during the match if need be. Hes given Ireland their turn, and if they want to go that predictable route next year, then theyre going to be facing the next nine months of ABs analysis and testing, and are likely to meet a very different team.

But back to your point. World rugby changed the rules because they favoured the side without the ball too much. If Ireland cement a gameplan of one, completely denying the opposition of any chance of annattack and two, hog the ball and dont use it scorewise for long periods the governing body is more likely to step in.

Key to the heart of rugby is players running and passing the ball in space. Ireland have simply adopted a method that directly controls and denies both, where the ABs always tru to open it up, have fun and enjoy entertaining.

In any set of rules you can go the negative path or the positive one. Ireland have chosen the former and good on them for gaining success from it, but they also need to be aware that theyre on a wobbly path if they keep tgat level of negativity up.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:46 pm

Maybe we need to have a rule like after 6 tackles the other team get a chance to play with the ball?

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well there we go then. Nz are back to not caring just like Chicago.

Before the AIs it was made clear that one win in this series could be a good thing for next year. Two would have been a disaster. Nobody likes losing but the ABs will certainly gain from this loss. This isnt like Chicago, NZ tried winning it using their own gameplan. They now now in its current staye, that its not good enough.

Your continuous snipe and run commentingvwithout offeringvany intelligent form of analysis is childlike. 7.5 is very likely your age, yet Ive met smarter kids younger than that.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe we need to have a rule like after 6 tackles the other team get a chance to play with the ball?

Oh look, a used sour old joke. Dad from wigan under 12s tell you that one?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 7:56 pm

Never been to Wigan. Would solve the problem you have with a team looking after the ball though.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 8:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Never been to Wigan.  Would solve the problem you have with a team looking after the ball though.

Not what Id heard but all good, keep sniping. Leave ya all to yourself Tumbleweed

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Post by Pie on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 4:26 am

I think their expectation of themselves is possibly their Achilles heel. I dont expect Hansen is panicking after this autumn because he will no doubt be trying out options the way the NH sides have but he has to know that while NZ have dipped a little, the NH have all progressed. Ireland are as good if not better than NZ right now. Wales, England even Scotland are making bounds. France continue their merry dance but we all know come RWC they will suddenly stop being merde. Meanwhile the Boss have crept back from the precipice to being almost as good as I remember them and been replaced by Aussie who are now almost as bad as I remember them.

By next autumn NZ will have had time to work on the issues they've found out this year and I have no doubt will be ready to defend their title again.

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Post by eirebilly on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 6:12 am

I cant wait until (well if) Ireland get to the same level as the AB's so that there can be articles written about their suspected Achilles heal.

To me, that is a massive compliment thumbsup
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Post by BamBam on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 10:36 am

Please can someone correct "heal" to "heel". Its driving my OCD insane

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 10:42 am

BamBam wrote:Please can someone correct "heal" to "heel". Its driving my OCD insane

It's said that soothing classical music can ameliorate or even heel OCD symptoms.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 10:44 am

furious furious furious

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Post by Brendan on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 10:55 am

NZ are still well ahead of everyone, while Ireland can match them they are as likely to fall to any of the other 6 best teams where as NZ not so much.

My one thought on NZ is Hansen has had a year to work out the rush defence and hasn't. NZ looked just like they did against the Lions. What do we think will be different in the coming year that will have him cracking t.. I don't know if his master plan is play with 2 playmakers but if they are getting flattened or under pressure when they get the ball it doesn't fix the problem.

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Post by Pie on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 12:02 pm

BamBam wrote:furious furious furious

Getting a dog may help....I suggest a Blue Healer Yahoo

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 12:09 pm

Pie, you Heal! Can't you see the man's in pane? Lay off hymn!

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Post by alanmackie6 on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 3:40 pm

WHAT has Munster beating Nz Maori years ago,WITH the current Maori side.Face it
Nz Maori current generation is an excellent side.
Next year is another year they will have worked out Ireland are now on a bulls eye
would you put your house them winning this week if they played again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 3:43 pm

Well not this week as it'd be outside the international window and a bit of a friendly and it looks like rain.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 9:35 pm

alanmackie6 wrote:WHAT has Munster beating Nz Maori years ago,WITH the current Maori side.Face it
Nz Maori current generation is an excellent side.
Next year is another year they will have worked out Ireland are now on a bulls eye
would you put your house them winning this week if they played again.

I don't know what it has to do with anything but you're overdoing the 'years ago' bit when it was only two years ago - 2016.  Munster 27 - Maoris 14.

Does it have anything to do with Ireland v ABs?  Who knows? 

I said before the Ireland v USA game that people might have been talking up the USA a bit as the NZ Maoris put nearly 60 on them, I think, a few weeks ago.  I was told that game really didn't count as USA were missing their European based players.  Ireland then virtually changed the entire team that beat the ABs a week earlier (Ireland C in terms of some of the players that showed up) and still put almost 60 on the USA with their European based players.  And you think Ireland's strongest side would be beaten by the NZ Maoris?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 9:39 pm

alanmackie6 wrote:WHAT has Munster beating Nz Maori years ago,WITH the current Maori side.Face it
Nz Maori current generation is an excellent side.
Next year is another year they will have worked out Ireland are now on a bulls eye
would you put your house them winning this week if they played again.


I wouldnt bet my house in anything. Would you bet your house on NZ winning? If I had to choose a side to win it would probably be Ireland alright. I mean Ireland have won 2 of their last 3 v NZ.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 9:49 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
alanmackie6 wrote:WHAT has Munster beating Nz Maori years ago,WITH the current Maori side.Face it
Nz Maori current generation is an excellent side.
Next year is another year they will have worked out Ireland are now on a bulls eye
would you put your house them winning this week if they played again.


I wouldnt bet my house in anything. Would you bet your house on NZ winning? If I had to choose a side to win it would probably be Ireland alright. I mean Ireland have won 2 of their last 3 v NZ.

Whistle

Poor Alan DID bet his house on NZ winning.................

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Post by miaow on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 10:23 pm

Taylorman wrote:
If you think that the Irish gameplan is not one that has been designed to beat the best team in rugby then toure deluded. Schmidt and as equally or more so Farrell has certainly built this current plan with the ABs primarily in mind. I dont care how they play against others but the fact is that the ABs can only be beaten by a heavily defensively rush based plan. Said that here when the Lions played and repeat it now.

"You walked in to the party..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZmCJUSC6g

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Post by Cyril on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 10:41 pm

Tone fair, miaow, it’s more the nouveau riche Irish and mikey ‘Top 3 Elite’ et al who deserve that.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 27 Nov 2018, 11:10 pm

Yeah, I deserved that. But I was too young for her back then. My timing was wrong.

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Post by alanmackie6 on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 8:49 pm

There is no way NZ is going to change their policy re players,that would be suicide,NH
and SH .Both play in different styles in their comps,NO Nz player has come back from
NH player better more to the contrary.
People laughed at my comments about NZ A sides[Juniors.Maori,Barbarians etc]BUT
many Tier 1 A sides would be better than the top 20 current sides[Tier 1 aside]7s

used to be a tool to.It isn`t a case of not having them as getting the right combo`s

yet .The loose forwards don`t function if the tight forwards don`t the Tight/loose
back row went out in the 60`s in Nz.
Face it many club sides beat touring teams in both Hemispheres even went test
wins were rare.
Both Crusaders and hurricanes beat England recently but IT doesn't mean they`ll
always be better sides does it.
RWC is only time all players are available for selection and there are a lot of
good SA and Aus,Argentina players available then

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Post by Brendan on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 9:26 pm

The line of only the best players are available for teams for WCs are rubbish.
Maybe Argentina and the PIs but again that's by choice. How will the squad that NZ brought to Europe be any different than the one that would have gone to a WC if it had been on this year.

There are calls in some quarters of NZ for Nonu if he has a good season with the Blues to make the squad. Not sure how serious it is but let's not forget the SA revival has been put down to NH players being picked while last WC Oz star player was from NH.

And how long was SBW back in NZ before he got into the national squad after his Japan stint or when he came back from Toulon in 2010. SH competitions just aren't ahead of everyone else like they use to be.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 9:47 pm

How would it have been different? Cruden, Piutau, Luatua, possibly Nonu, Conrad, Kaino, Franks for injury cover.

For me a big factor this year from the back row perspective us how much we missed Sane Cane. A heavily defensive flanker who tackles hard and all day is essential for Wcup 2019. His effort v Wales two years ago was one of the best tackling efforts Ive seen from a 7. Punishing, driving back players all day.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11948025

‘His appetite for carnage was insatiable and Wales, who had ample time with the ball and enough territory to feel they could have won the game, might just have done that but for the impact of Cane.

He damaged Welsh ball carriers. Knocked them hard on the gainline and hurt them. More than a few times Welshmen were slow to get back up after Cane had driven into their rib cage and then deposited some way further back from whence they had come.’

Yep, we could do with more of that.

Savea tackles higher and is more energetic on attack. If theres one thing the selectors will have got from this tour its that Cane must be front and centre at 7 in the world cup.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:00 pm

Cane wouldnt have a sniff if the Ireland squad. Just not good enough.

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Post by alanmackie6 on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:16 pm

BabBam I have relatives in both NZ and Aus including as well as a famous Wallaby back
[Joe Roff].I have forgotten more about NZ Rugby than you`ll ever know,my memory is
excellent.Ask the SH regulars if I know my Nz rugby,but for injury Adam Thomson
would have started in place of Kaino,Jerry Collins was another who was made a scapegoat.
Liam Messam won a lot of caps but never really rated him.Ionae the wingers brother is
another potential 7,not to mention Luke Whitelock.
Players like Merthens and Cullen faces didn't fit with a certain coach,this year smells

dangerously close to 2006.not getting the combo`s right .your comments about
outer Mongolia maybe right don`t think every one here is ignorant on the subject
they speak of.

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Post by Cyril on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:23 pm

Emack, when did both the Crusaders and Hurricanes ‘recently’ beat England?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:40 pm

Cyril wrote:Emack, when did both the Crusaders and Hurricanes ‘recently’ beat England?

Did he mean the NZ side that beat England was made up of crusaiders and canes players?

Or is it a reference to the Lions tour?

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Post by Cyril on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:52 pm

Who knows? His ramblings are practically unintelligible. If he could do everyone the courtesy of checking his posts before sending them it might not read like a five year old’s ‘what I did on my holidays’ rough draft.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:52 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Cane wouldnt have a sniff if the Ireland squad. Just not good enough.

Yeah naah. Luckily your opinion is worthless then. On that, hows Henshaw? Still crying? Laugh

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 11:19 pm

Cyril wrote:Who knows? His ramblings are practically unintelligible. If he could do everyone the courtesy of checking his posts before sending them it might not read like a five year old’s ‘what I did on my holidays’ rough draft.

Ha I thought you had turned over a new leaf Cyril?

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Post by alanmackie6 on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 11:25 pm

Sorry I thought read online that an England side played warm up games to
Crusaders and Hurricanes earlier this year.If it`s not so then I apologise.

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Post by alanmackie6 on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 11:25 pm

Sorry I thought read online that an England side played warm up games to
Crusaders and Hurricanes earlier this year.If it`s not so then I apologise.

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Post by miaow on Wed 28 Nov 2018, 11:39 pm

Taylorman wrote:For me a big factor this year from the back row perspective us how much we missed Sane Cane.

Would love to see what you're like with Insane Cane on the field.


Laughing uncontrollably during the Haka? Smearing the opposition's prop with suspiciously disgusting 'mud' at scrum time? Refusing to enter a ruck through the gate and being lauded for pushing the bounaries of the law, time, and space itself?





(I have no issue with you Taylorman. No axe to grind at all. Too easy to ignore the opportunity for a childish joke. Sorry.)

miaow

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 12:53 am

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:For me a big factor this year from the back row perspective us how much we missed Sane Cane.

Would love to see what you're like with Insane Cane on the field.


Laughing uncontrollably during the Haka? Smearing the opposition's prop with suspiciously disgusting 'mud' at scrum time? Refusing to enter a ruck through the gate and being lauded for pushing the bounaries of the law, time, and space itself?





(I have no issue with you Taylorman. No axe to grind at all. Too easy to ignore the opportunity for a childish joke. Sorry.)

No worries, just a pity it wasnt a funny one. See fly for the good ones thumbsup

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 9:15 am

I think if Sam Cane is NZs answer at back row then the OP has been answered.

The standard isn't high enough in NZ back row forwards anymore. As Clive Woodward has said NH sides just aren't pushed around anymore by Aus, NZ and SA packs.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 9:20 am

Crusaders and huricanes beat englabd when exactly?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 9:23 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Crusaders and huricanes beat englabd when exactly?

Emack has already admitted that he got that one wrong

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 9:24 am

Yeah just got down to that. Couldn't delete as you've replied. I guess his excellent memory let him down.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 9:28 am

Honest mistake Id say

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 9:32 am

He talks england down too much. Any leeway I had disappeared long ago.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 9:38 am

Fair enough, it is very obvious he gets under England fans skin.

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Post by Brendan on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 11:02 am

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:For me a big factor this year from the back row perspective us how much we missed Sane Cane.

Would love to see what you're like with Insane Cane on the field.


Laughing uncontrollably during the Haka? Smearing the opposition's prop with suspiciously disgusting 'mud' at scrum time? Refusing to enter a ruck through the gate and being lauded for pushing the bounaries of the law, time, and space itself?





(I have no issue with you Taylorman. No axe to grind at all. Too easy to ignore the opportunity for a childish joke. Sorry.)

No worries, just a pity it wasnt a funny one. See fly for the good ones thumbsup

Woud "NZ missed Cane this AIs, the stick they've use to beat the opposition in the past" been better

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 29 Nov 2018, 6:36 pm

Canes driving tackling is the sort of game we need to make inroads into the ball hogging. Cane loves that part of the game. Hes one of those players that has to get told to hold back on that stuff during training as they cant make as mch progress on attack training. Not a good injury to have though.

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