6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

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6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by TightHEAD on Mon 26 Nov 2018, 11:15 am

First topic message reminder :

6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

England starting XV (485 caps)

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

Finishers (206 caps)

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).


Last edited by TightHEAD on Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 7:46 pm

Ireland lost in two close games and NZ nearly lost. That sort of logic is comfort dribble. Two L’s and a W is all I see.

If nearly lost meant something most world cup finals would change hands. Not a big deal losing to Wales and Scotland. Geez, weve never lost to Scotland and have 30 straight wins on Wales. Both in two weeks would be a massive deal to us. Illustrates the difference between us then. No big deal... geez.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 7:49 pm

TightHEAD wrote:6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

Except the number one side isnt in it.
So logically incorrect.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 10:47 pm

Taylorman wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

Except the number one side isnt in it.
So logically incorrect.

T-man - the No 1 side doesnt have to be in it for it to be the best comp. It’s a value judgement based on a number of factors - New Zealand is not one of them. Live with it. You’ll sleep easier at night.
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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 11:48 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:6 Nations

IRELAND v ENGLAND

Saturday 02 February 2019 16:45 GMT

Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Maybe a little early but I for one can not wait for this fixture. 2nd vs 4th.

The 6 Nations is officially the BEST rugby competition........................In the World.

Except the number one side isnt in it.
So logically incorrect.

T-man - the No 1 side doesnt have to be in it for it to be the best comp.   It’s a value judgement based on a number of factors - New Zealand is not one of them.  Live with it.  You’ll sleep easier at night.

True, its just an illogical value judgement. Such a pity the best players arent at the best tournament doncha think? Kinda spoils it for me. Bit like the pacific nations cup, always feels like... somethings missing Laugh

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 12:08 am

Ireland are undoubtedly the number 1 side of 2018 which makes them the best side right now. Rankings show who the best side over the last few years has been but that doesnt make them the best side now. Its also pretty obvious the rugby championship isnt at the same level as the six nations and hasnt been for a while now. The penny just hasnt dropped for Tman yet which isnt exactly unexpected.

Funny how its generally accepted that NZs best player this year was Retallick even though he missed half their games this year and looked like a schoolboy v Ireland playing against a guy who actually was a schoolboy a few years ago. Yep the best players are in the six nations.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 1:25 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland are undoubtedly the number 1 side of 2018 which makes them the best side right now. .

Aha, you said yesterday

‘I think that Ireland on merit deserve to be called the best side in 2018 but by the tiniest margin’

Does undoubtedly mean tiniest margin these days? Hmmm...Confidence grew overnight huh laughing

And no, it doesnt make them the best side, because thats an opinion. The only official capacity a side can be considered best is either the no 1 ranking or, are world cup champs. Ireland are neither, and never have been. NZ have both. 2018 or whatever measure you want. So I get you have an opinion but your nearlys and almosts are exactly that. Ryans a good player but hes no Retallick yet. One offs are a bit like nearlys and almosts. Close, but no cigar. Whistle

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Pie on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 3:17 am

I'm not sure if you are arrogant and or plain stupid if you just got beaten by a team and think you're still better than them. Either way, your deluded.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 3:25 am

Pie wrote:I'm not sure if you are arrogant and or plain stupid if you just got beaten by a team and think you're still better than them. Either way, your deluded.

Aha, so you think the best side ALWAYS wins matches. Okay then, Ill take arrogant and stupid. thumbsup

Id fully expect a slam on that basis then. I mean, why bother playing it?

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 7:59 am

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland are undoubtedly the number 1 side of 2018 which makes them the best side right now. .

Aha, you said yesterday

‘I think that Ireland on merit deserve to be called the best side in 2018 but by the tiniest margin’

Does undoubtedly mean tiniest margin these days? Hmmm...Confidence grew overnight huh laughing

And no, it doesnt make them the best side, because thats an opinion. The only official capacity a side can be considered best is either the no 1 ranking or, are world cup champs. Ireland are neither, and never have been. NZ have both. 2018 or whatever measure you want. So I get you have an opinion but your nearlys and almosts are exactly that. Ryans a good player but hes no Retallick yet. One offs are a bit like nearlys and almosts. Close, but no cigar. Whistle

Yep but Im still in no doubt we are better than NZ right now and have known the six nations is better than the RC for a while. The penny still hasnt dropped for you.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:29 am

Well in my lifetime the 5 or 6 nations has been one long bore. Particularly in the 80s and 90s, absolute sleep material. Very, very rarely were more tries scored than penalties. Its got a bit better but for me thats partly because of the SH influence, coaching, player quality at club level which never happened in the drone days. France were the shining light though. high levels of backplay throughout the 70s to 90s, win or not. Now theres three out of four SH coaches, with Cotter having a positive impact on the other. Coincidence? Nope.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by rodders on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 11:05 am

Taylorman wrote:Well in my lifetime the 5 or 6 nations has been one long bore. Particularly in the 80s and 90s, absolute sleep material. Very, very rarely were more tries scored than penalties. Its got a bit better but for me thats partly because of the SH influence, coaching, player quality at club level which never happened in the drone days. France were the shining light though. high levels of backplay throughout the 70s to 90s, win or not. Now theres three out of four SH coaches, with Cotter having a positive impact on the other. Coincidence? Nope.

I would presume the game turning pro made a difference, and global warming.
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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 11:10 am

I get it Ireland are good because of New Zealand coaches. Ok.

By that "logic" NZ should be much better than Ireland as they have more NZ coaches and players (and the odd boat load of Tongans).

The reality is that Schmidt is as much a product now of Ireland as he is NZ and Ireland's players are actually just pretty good.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 2:19 pm

Its official Ireland's young guns aren't afraid of playing the ABs at all.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/109525310/ireland-star-jacob-stockdale-says-teams-no-longer-fear-the-all-blacks

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by miaow on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 3:10 pm

"The Ulster wing told The Guardian it had been an "incredible experience" to be part of Ireland's 16-19 win at Aviva Stadium."

Even in defeat, the All Blacks still win...

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by miaow on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 3:14 pm

Incidentally, Jacob Stockdale: incredible player. The player George North could have been. Or, perhaps more accurately, like taking the best parts of North and Cuthbert and putting them in one player. Still not sure that'd be as good as Stockdale. Will be interesting to see if he keeps progressing. Could be the difference between winning the RWC or not (decisive tries already v NZ and England).

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 3:20 pm

miaow wrote:"The Ulster wing told The Guardian it had been an "incredible experience" to be part of Ireland's 16-19 win at Aviva Stadium."

Even in defeat, the All Blacks still win...

Ha yeah I know I saw that.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Pie on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 3:25 pm

miaow wrote:Incidentally, Jacob Stockdale: incredible player. The player George North could have been. Or, perhaps more accurately, like taking the best parts of North and Cuthbert and putting them in one player. Still not sure that'd be as good as Stockdale. Will be interesting to see if he keeps progressing. Could be the difference between winning the RWC or not (decisive tries already v NZ and England).

Flatters to deceive? Be interesting to see if he suffers second season syndrome. For sure he makes his own scores but also finishes gimme tries. He is rather like Cuffbert and North's lovechild and like them I do think he will be found out sooner rather than later.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 3:49 pm

Its well known that he needs to work on his defense. However, his try scoring record speaks for itself. 12 tries in 14 International games is elite level.

That's more tries than Lions Simon Zebo and Luke Fitzgerald got in their whole careers.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by rodders on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 4:36 pm

Pie wrote:
miaow wrote:Incidentally, Jacob Stockdale: incredible player. The player George North could have been. Or, perhaps more accurately, like taking the best parts of North and Cuthbert and putting them in one player. Still not sure that'd be as good as Stockdale. Will be interesting to see if he keeps progressing. Could be the difference between winning the RWC or not (decisive tries already v NZ and England).

Flatters to deceive? Be interesting to see if he suffers second season syndrome. For sure he makes his own scores but also finishes gimme tries. He is rather like Cuffbert and North's lovechild and like them I do think he will be found out sooner rather than later.

I think the opposite is true, he is so much stronger, faster and smarter than he appears. The tries I've seen him score weren't gimme's by any stretch and he's looking better this season than last.

I think he's a phenomenal talent, and I really didn't rate him at all when he first broke in the Ulster side. He still has things to work on absolutely but his ability to finish is second to none right now.
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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by SecretFly on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 5:01 pm

At the moment he's playing some very off-the-cuff stuff!  It might be part of a play book but when he decides to play some of the moves, anything can happen.  Luckily enough for us and him, he's pulled off more than he's fumbled so far.  Hope the good luck continues.  

He has a great attitude and courage (I mean mental courage - trying that overhead kick a second time after it so nearly gave ABs an intercept try. That took a lot of nerve).  I don't think even a hairdrying assault by Joe could take that boyish smile off his face.  He just can't play it any other way but with that cavalier 'sure I'll give it a go' drive.  There have been other players in the set up with the same eagerness to just smile through all rules and regulations set down by Schmidt.  But I think Stockdale is different in that he wants to be obedient.  You sense he really wants to feed off the coaches' knowledge.... he just then becomes himself again when on the field in the heat.

Another good long term hope for Ireland. He'll probably mellow off from a try per game but I think he's intelligent enough to keep himself dangerous.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Pie on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 5:15 pm

rodders wrote:
Pie wrote:
miaow wrote:Incidentally, Jacob Stockdale: incredible player. The player George North could have been. Or, perhaps more accurately, like taking the best parts of North and Cuthbert and putting them in one player. Still not sure that'd be as good as Stockdale. Will be interesting to see if he keeps progressing. Could be the difference between winning the RWC or not (decisive tries already v NZ and England).

Flatters to deceive? Be interesting to see if he suffers second season syndrome. For sure he makes his own scores but also finishes gimme tries. He is rather like Cuffbert and North's lovechild and like them I do think he will be found out sooner rather than later.

I think the opposite is true, he is so much stronger, faster and smarter than he appears. The tries I've seen him score weren't gimme's by any stretch and he's looking better this season than last.

I think he's a phenomenal talent, and I really didn't rate him at all when he first broke in the Ulster side.  He still has things to work on absolutely but his ability to finish is second to none right now.

Fair play, I just dont see it entirely yet. ihtink he is benefitting from Ireland's incredible rise. We'll see this 6 Nations but I imagine he will be targeted.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 5:41 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I get it Ireland are good because of New Zealand coaches. Ok.

By that "logic" NZ should be much better than Ireland as they have more NZ coaches and players (and the odd boat load of Tongans).

The reality is that Schmidt is as much a product now of Ireland as he is NZ and Ireland's players are actually just pretty good.

Well for over a hundred years they have been. Remove Schmidt and you remove all trace of Irelands success. Using your same logic if Schmidt were a product of Irish rugby there’d be, and should have been a lot more like him. There are none remotely nearing the success he has had. Coincidence? I dont think so.

You are witnessing an anomaly so far. Oz, England and South Africa have all been where Ireland is now so weve seen this before. Sometimes sides get the better of us...2002/3 England, oz late 90s, SA 2009. Ireland arent even at those levels yet because they havent beaten us at home, and I doubt they would have this year, a scrape in dublin and average win in oz, where the ABs dominated all three against them, not totally convincing.

Ireland will truly prove themselves on the world cup stage, and, when Schmidt leaves. I think both make Ireland fans very nervous, as they have their confidence, but also their doubts, because as a side and as supporters, thats where theyre at. How long can this gravy train keep going theyll be thinking. How good are they?

Poths recollection of Irelands results in the 90s was pretty alarming and if for ten years that was the sort of players coming through then there must be massive improvements on that. To stay where they are or improve they must keep bringing through players equal to if not better than Sexton, Murray, SOB, POC, Furlong...continuously, forever. They seem to be doing that presently with the loosies, Ryan, Carbery etc and its a matter of keepinq that up, for reasons of both competing with AB like sides and providing not good but excellent injury and player management cover.

Times are good now, but you cant forget what things used to be like as its so easy to return there. Oz and SA have declined massively in the last three years so a resurgence by both is due at some point.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by SecretFly on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 5:57 pm

Taylorman wrote: Oz and SA have declined massively in the last three years so a resurgence by both is due at some point.

Why though?  It might happen but why does it have to be 'due'?  Is it a Natural state of rugby that SA and Australia are natural bedfellows of NZ up in the clouds at 1, 2 and 3?

It's happened that way in the past and there are many reasons.  One of the reasons - and some people seem to always disagree with this coming point - one of those reasons is familiarity with NZ and ABs rugby.  The more you play them, the better you can and have to adapt to them.  It's inevitable that if you play them a lot, they're more familiar, their tactics are easier to decipher, etc etc.  STILL difficult to beat but SA and Australia have definitely benefitted from the challenge of having to try to beat the ABs in the past.  ABs dragged SA and Australia up the ranks and helped them stay there.  You just have to change your systems to compete with them, you have to have much more stamina etc.

But now Number 2 and 3 side in the World are in the NH.  You might argue it's a lesser version of rugby that has them there but they are there.  So, will the same be now true in the NH?  Will other NH sides have to up their systems to beat those sides.  Will the fear of that competition keep upping levels in the NH in England, in Ireland, in France, in Scotland, in Wales?

SA and Australia may be back in the driving seat come the end of next year but I don't see that as something that'll eventually happen as an inevitability.  They'll have to improve to get there. I mean they'll have to improve, not just wait out the weak form and think it natural that they'll 'bounce' back up soon enough.  

NZ will have to pull away quite a distance from NH challengers too to get that more comfortable climate of 1, 2 and 3 back to how it's been for so many years.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 6:09 pm

Bit like climate change fly. 50-100 years is a trend, a couple of frosts is an anomaly. Until thats not the case, I dont see it any differently. Oz and SA will...find a way.

We heard identical things in 03 and even back in the 70s when the Lions ripped through NZ then SA. Both fell off so fast it was eerie.

This round I believe the NH improvement and the SH demise...both going up and down at the same time respectively?...are both the result of SH IP moving north in unprecented numbers in the last decade, so theres a falsehood about what we are now seeing and remove that and youre back to plain jane again. Even now NH sides must have SH coaches. Says a lot for me.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 6:50 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Its official Ireland's young guns aren't afraid of playing the ABs at all.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/109525310/ireland-star-jacob-stockdale-says-teams-no-longer-fear-the-all-blacks

Geez if I had a dollar for every time some clown comes out with this, many banished to obscurity just for saying it. All it says to me over the years is that they normally are scared and now... theyre not (wuestion mark).

I mean what a pointless thing to say. Its as though they need that security blanket to remove the fear.

Reminds of Mekenzie telling the All Blacks publicly to ‘bring their A game to Eden park’ to which his side got thrashed by 40.

Others:

https://rugby365.com/countries/new-zealand/boks-dont-fear-all-blacks

https://www.odt.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/wales-no-longer-fear-all-blacks

This doozy:

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/112200?lang=en

(France lost 62-13)

So its really a pointless comment. 'Oh but this time....' Doh


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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 9:25 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I get it Ireland are good because of New Zealand coaches. Ok.

By that "logic" NZ should be much better than Ireland as they have more NZ coaches and players (and the odd boat load of Tongans).

The reality is that Schmidt is as much a product now of Ireland as he is NZ and Ireland's players are actually just pretty good.

Well for over a hundred years they have been. Remove Schmidt and you remove all trace of Irelands success. Using your same logic if Schmidt were a product of Irish rugby there’d be, and should have been a lot more like him. There are none remotely nearing the success he has had. Coincidence? I dont think so.

You are witnessing an anomaly so far. Oz, England and South Africa have all been where Ireland is now so weve seen this before. Sometimes sides get the better of us...2002/3 England, oz late 90s, SA 2009. Ireland arent even at those levels yet because they havent beaten us at home, and I doubt they would have this year, a scrape in dublin and average win in oz, where the ABs dominated all three against them, not totally convincing.

Ireland will truly prove themselves on the world cup stage, and, when Schmidt leaves. I think both make Ireland fans very nervous, as they have their confidence, but also their doubts, because as a side and as supporters, thats where theyre at. How long can this gravy train keep going theyll be thinking. How good are they?

Poths recollection of Irelands results in the 90s was pretty alarming and if for ten years that was the sort of players coming through then there must be massive improvements on that. To stay where they are or improve they must keep bringing through players equal to if not better than Sexton, Murray, SOB, POC, Furlong...continuously, forever. They seem to be doing that presently with the loosies, Ryan, Carbery etc and its a matter of keepinq that up, for reasons of both competing with AB like sides and providing not good but excellent injury and player management cover.

Times are good now, but you cant forget what things used to be like as its so easy to return there. Oz and SA have declined massively in the last three years so a resurgence by both is due at some point.

Remove Ireland from Schmidt and you remove the majority of his success as a coach. Works both ways. Won nothing with the Blues as assistant, won one trophy with Clermont in 10 finals. All his significant success has been with Leinster and Ireland. Made in Ireland.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:13 pm

NZ are a better side than Ireland. One-off results at home don’t suddenly change it. A rude awakening awaits Ireland. France and England are coming.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I get it Ireland are good because of New Zealand coaches. Ok.

By that "logic" NZ should be much better than Ireland as they have more NZ coaches and players (and the odd boat load of Tongans).

The reality is that Schmidt is as much a product now of Ireland as he is NZ and Ireland's players are actually just pretty good.

Well for over a hundred years they have been. Remove Schmidt and you remove all trace of Irelands success. Using your same logic if Schmidt were a product of Irish rugby there’d be, and should have been a lot more like him. There are none remotely nearing the success he has had. Coincidence? I dont think so.

You are witnessing an anomaly so far. Oz, England and South Africa have all been where Ireland is now so weve seen this before. Sometimes sides get the better of us...2002/3 England, oz late 90s, SA 2009. Ireland arent even at those levels yet because they havent beaten us at home, and I doubt they would have this year, a scrape in dublin and average win in oz, where the ABs dominated all three against them, not totally convincing.

Ireland will truly prove themselves on the world cup stage, and, when Schmidt leaves. I think both make Ireland fans very nervous, as they have their confidence, but also their doubts, because as a side and as supporters, thats where theyre at. How long can this gravy train keep going theyll be thinking. How good are they?

Poths recollection of Irelands results in the 90s was pretty alarming and if for ten years that was the sort of players coming through then there must be massive improvements on that. To stay where they are or improve they must keep bringing through players equal to if not better than Sexton, Murray, SOB, POC, Furlong...continuously, forever. They seem to be doing that presently with the loosies, Ryan, Carbery etc and its a matter of keepinq that up, for reasons of both competing with AB like sides and providing not good but excellent injury and player management cover.

Times are good now, but you cant forget what things used to be like as its so easy to return there. Oz and SA have declined massively in the last three years so a resurgence by both is due at some point.

Remove Ireland from Schmidt and you remove the majority of his success as a coach. Works both ways. Won nothing with the Blues as assistant, won one trophy with Clermont in 10 finals. All his significant success has been with Leinster and Ireland. Made in Ireland.

Yeah you keep saying. Can Leinster and Ireland only only convert kiwi professional coaches to greatness, and not Irishmen? Truly an awful situation then. I feel for you.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:41 pm

Taylor, are you saying that Ireland haven’t had a good Home Nations leader since Cromwell?

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by SecretFly on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:48 pm

Cyril wrote:NZ are a better side than Ireland. One-off results at home don’t suddenly change it. A rude awakening awaits Ireland. France and England are coming.

At least it's moved on from the token/meaningless Chicago game, Cyril. At least you've moved on to a worthless game in Dublin. Next time I hope it's an ineffectual pointless win in a WC final Wink

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:NZ are a better side than Ireland. One-off results at home don’t suddenly change it. A rude awakening awaits Ireland. France and England are coming.

At least it's moved on from the token/meaningless Chicago game, Cyril.  At least you've moved on to a worthless game in Dublin.  Next time I hope it's an ineffectual pointless win in a WC final Wink

A bit like our 2011 and SA's 1995? Shocked

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 11:35 pm

Ireland win a game. They don’t shut up forever. The blow-ins love it. Is it 3 Grand Slams and quarters in the WC? Collapse has been a fan for what? 18 months?

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 1:11 am

Cyril wrote:NZ are a better side than Ireland. One-off results at home don’t suddenly change it. A rude awakening awaits Ireland. France and England are coming.

Umm, you’re not seriously expecting England and France to beat Ireland in Dublin, are you? Whilst England probably have better odds than the French, Les Bleus doesn’t have a hope in hell. It’s more likely that Ireland win all home games and lose an away game, but only to a team ranked almost as high as they are...

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 2:32 am

England did similarly...GS, knocked everyone over, then fell apart at 6N time so there is a very recent precedent, and at 6N time the other sides dont care who you beat before them. I think England will scrape it as they tend to start well (recent years anyway) , and one of (but not both) Wales or Scotland will beat Ireland, such is the lopsidedness of the home matches.

France...who knows...

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 8:56 am

Cyril wrote:Ireland win a game. They don’t shut up forever. The blow-ins love it. Is it 3 Grand Slams and quarters in the WC? Collapse has been a fan for what? 18 months?

Nice try Cyril. Why do you love Ireland threads so much? Did an Irish person do something to you at some point in your life?

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 9:35 am

Its hard to know how good England will be in the six nations. They do have great players now, best players since 2003 by a long way in my view and Eddie Jones has some good ideas as a coach which is why I fancied them to bounce back from a bad six nations and do a SANZAR slam which they almost did. This was also based on England's form in the 6N being skewed by the Lions tour and players being over worked but also a slump in quality in the rugby championship.

However, Jones does seem to be his own worst enemy at times and the turnover of his own staff has been an issue with England so I can see them having ups and downs as they continue along their way. My guess it they will peak with a semi at the RWC and Jones will move on. 1st or 2nd in the six nations in 2019.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 10:15 am

I think turnover of staff can be a good thing as long as the replacements are put in place quickly. Jones was a touch slow in doing that or the rfu was. The other way though can see stagnation.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 10:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think turnover of staff can be a good thing as long as the replacements are put in place quickly. Jones was a touch slow in doing that or the rfu was. The other way though can see stagnation.

There's no doubt you are right 7.5 however, I get the sense the turnover is more to do with coaches falling out with Jones than an effort on the RFUs part to keep things fresh. Would you not agree?

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by BamBam on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 10:26 am

Depends which coaches you're talking about.. I thought Gustard left because it was pretty much the ideal DOR role at Quins with it being a big club and close to home for him

Whether being a DOR or an assistant with the national team is more prestigious is debatable.. He may have thought he wouldn't get the top job after Jones anyway, whereas if he succeeds with Quins who knows

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 10:27 am

You can never say for certain but it doesn't appear that way. A lot of his coaches have been on short term contracts so you're always going to have them leave. Gustard is the obvious one leaving before the world cup but he had the chance at a head coach of a promising club. It'll all surface eventually and not everyone gets on with everyone of course.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Sharkey06 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 5:50 pm

I am English 100%, but I love the bitterness from the New Zeland fans towards Ireland - that sense of entitlement to being the number one team in the world is why we all dislike you and take great joy from France/South Africa kicking your backside in the world cup.

I love England, but hats off to Ireland they are deservedly the no one team in the world. New Zelanad will just have to accept that and come back a bit harder if they want to have a chance at the world cup - rather than moaning and crying into their lager.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Pie on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 5:59 pm

Well said Sharkey. What you'll see is Ireland consolidate their position next year while NZ posters will start banging on about rankings and the fact that they've been No 1 for so long they really must still be No 1 until Ireland have been no 1 for as long as they have.

And while I think England are on of the few teams could sneak a win v Ireland if everything clicked in to place and Billy V were playing, I think first game in Dublin is too soon. If Wales win their opener I think the decider will be last game in Cardiff.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 6:11 pm

Sharkey06 wrote:I am English 100%, but I love the bitterness from the New Zeland fans towards Ireland - that sense of entitlement to being the number one team in the world is why we all dislike you and take great joy from France/South Africa kicking your backside in the world cup.

I love England, but hats off to Ireland they are deservedly the no one team in the world.  New Zelanad will just have to accept that and come back a bit harder if they want to have a chance at the world cup - rather than moaning and crying into their lager.

Dont worry sharkey, we’ll come back harder in the main event, its what we do. thumbsup

Not that weve anything much to come back from. We usually lose one or two a year, though this year the matches vs England and return match in SA...how we won from 30-18 down at 75 minutes ...should have made it four.

Next year Hansen will focus on ‘beating the opposition’ more, rather than testing what his side can do regardless of who theyre playing. Experimenting is over. Pool play is concerning after the Bok match. Three weeks of playing C graders. Not ideal...but someones gotta do it.

With Schmidt, Hansen and Gats all having their swansong, its going to be avery emotive tournament depending on whete each exits, if at all. thumbsup

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 6:19 pm

Pie wrote:Well said Sharkey. What you'll see is Ireland consolidate their position next year while NZ posters will start banging on about rankings and the fact that they've been No 1 for so long they really must still be No 1 until Ireland have been no 1 for as long as they have.

And while I think England are on of the few teams could sneak a win v Ireland if everything clicked in to place and Billy V were playing, I think first game in Dublin is too soon. If Wales win their opener I think the decider will be last game in Cardiff.

Umm no, that would be petty. England usually start strong in the 6N before losing their weary way and with Jones want to hog the limelight again will target Dublin like no other match until Japan. You could be right about it being too early and whether the Wellington boys play, but Ireland will become another victim of the false confidence youve shown here Laugh  seen that many times. ‘But what happened, we beat the All Blacks, I mean, how....gosh....I thought...wow...didnt see that coming...’ Laugh

I think Eddies going to have more of a say next year, his side were impressive.

ABs will just do what theyve done for the last 8 years. Pick the right matches to win for the year, and bar one Lions test, have got it right just about every time.


Last edited by Taylorman on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 6:20 pm

Do you feel that nd fans are being cheated if the coaches and players only choose which matches to turn up to?

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 6:31 pm

Nope, its a necessary reality of professional rugby. Weve known that for years. We need to build much greater depth, partially because of the sheer number of tests, many one offs that have no trophy etc etc, and have players ready to step up when players go north, get injured, or need to be managed.

Fans know the realities of modern day international rugby. But at World cup knockout time, thats when priorities kick in most. Weve been through the pain of losing matches we should win, and have learned ‘just how hard’ that is.

That is still Irelands challenge. South Africa is it quarter final? A side who have won twice, have won knockouts they werent expected to, have been there and done it. Ireland who have not, and even if they win, have to put another big one in, then another. Many, many things need to go right. And SA beating Ireland wont even come close to many of the upsets at this tournament.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 6:55 pm

Before the possible QF with SA, Ireland will probably be poisoned by a waitress called Sushi.
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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 7:24 pm

Do nz announce when they're not trying or does it just come out as a kind of high pitched whinge afterwards?

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 7:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do nz announce when they're not trying or does it just come out as a kind of high pitched whinge afterwards?

No it just comes out as ignorance from dumbies who dont understand the concept.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 7:40 pm

'Dumbies'. Brilliant.

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Re: 6 Nations - IRELAND v ENGLAND 2nd Feb 2019

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