Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

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Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:23 am

First topic message reminder :

Just going to post a few graphics based on some player research I did across teams in Six Nations and Japan.  I haven't included any data on French or Japanese academy players as they're not easily available.

The figures are birth-countries only.  So a player may have moved when they were 4, 14 or 24.  It also includes players whose parents are from another country, has different nationality grandparents, etc.  

It includes players from PRO14, Premiership, Top 14, PROD2, Japan Top League.












Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:22 pm; edited 10 times in total
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:22 am

Brendan wrote:income of Unions who funded teams and what the funding breaks down to per team. Some Unions can't step in to increase funds because they just don't have them.

WRU €109m 4 teams, €27.25m per team
IRFU €86m 4 teams, €21.5m per team
SRU €64.5m 2 teams, €32.25m per team
FIR- couldn't find but was lower than Scotland

SH teams have bigger costs due to more travel expenses at all levels
NZR €156m but was due to the lions
2016 €98m 5 teams, €19.6m per team
RA €96.35m 4 teams, €24m per team (better than Ireland)
SA €75.8m 6 teams, €12.6m per team
UAR can't find but Is alot less than Italy and getting money off WR.

It doesn't work like that in split of income though, Brendan. So not really a great comparison of team expenditure.
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by The Oracle on Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:44 am

Brendan wrote:income of Unions who funded teams and what the funding breaks down to per team. Some Unions can't step in to increase funds because they just don't have them.

WRU €109m 4 teams, €27.25m per team
IRFU €86m 4 teams, €21.5m per team
SRU €64.5m 2 teams, €32.25m per team
FIR- couldn't find but was lower than Scotland

SH teams have bigger costs due to more travel expenses at all levels
NZR €156m but was due to the lions
2016 €98m 5 teams, €19.6m per team
RA €96.35m 4 teams, €24m per team (better than Ireland)
SA €75.8m 6 teams, €12.6m per team
UAR can't find but Is alot less than Italy and getting money off WR.


This is a bit misleading. Income and expenditure on the pro teams are not necessarily linked. The WRU could rake in £500m but it doesn’t mean the funding available to the 4 pro regions would increase. They’re not union owned.
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by The Oracle on Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:47 am

Sorry, just saw Pot’s comment on the next page - I think we’re saying the same thing.
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by the-goon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:29 am

ebop wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
ebop wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
ebop wrote:Guns, here’s one for you, you must be really proud of that GDP per capita. There’s plenty more  thumbsup

‘Ireland’s corporate tax system is helping some of the world’s largest drug companies deprive emerging economies of almost €100 million a year, according to aid agency Oxfam’

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/ireland-s-corporate-tax-rate-hurting-emerging-economies-oxfam-1.3632501?mode=amp

Oxfam a charity with little to no expertise on financial regulations nor economics made the claim. Reliable source?

In any case if Pharma companies aren't recording as big profits in one country as another then there is very little stopping the less competitive country from offering more favourable terms such as lower tax rates.

Its the way of the world I'm afraid.

The irony of the article for me is that a charity is calling on a government for tax transparency when charities traditionally are some of the least transparent entities around.
Guns, here’s another one  Laugh

“Ireland has been branded as one of the worst tax havens in the world, on a par with countries like Bermuda and the Cayman Islands”

So you’re one of the worst tax havens. Or, maybe, one of the best! clap

Kind of like your rugby team. But Ireland can’t quite knock the Cayman Islands and Bermuda off the perch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-branded-one-of-world-s-worst-tax-havens-1.2901822?mode=amp

Again that is the opinion of a British charity. Did you know charities arent known for their transparency nor their expertise on economic nor financial matters. When you read articles dont you ever question what you are reading?

Pot Hale, do you know how many NH coaches ply their trade in the SH? Probably not many, maybe zero. And I’m kinda glad that’s the case. Although Farrell seems like he would have something to offer.

Guns, have you heard of Joseph Stiglitz?

Me neither, but apparently he’s a Nobel Prize-winning economist and he said this

Ireland’s controversial tax deals with companies such as Apple and Google are part of a corrupt global system, which is fuelling inequality and political extremism, including the rise of Donald Trump in the US“

Well that really makes me proud to be Irish, we helped get the D man in the White house! MAGA!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-tax-deals-help-fuel-global-inequality-joseph-stiglitz-1.3311435?mode=amp

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by SecretFly on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:57 am

the-goon wrote:

Pot Hale, do you know how many NH coaches ply their trade in the SH?

Ireland’s controversial tax deals with companies such as Apple and Google are part of a corrupt global system, which is fuelling inequality and political extremism, including the rise of Donald Trump in the US“

Well that really makes me proud to be Irish, we helped get the D man in the White house! MAGA!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-tax-deals-help-fuel-global-inequality-joseph-stiglitz-1.3311435?mode=amp



Rona O'Gara?

Corrupt Global System: Check.
Inequality: Check.
Political Extremism: Check.
Donald Trump: Check.

I'm with you, goon.  I like that Donald shocked the hell out of the first three by getting to be 4th on the list.

Enjoying the show.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Brendan on Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:29 am

The Oracle wrote:
Brendan wrote:income of Unions who funded teams and what the funding breaks down to per team. Some Unions can't step in to increase funds because they just don't have them.

WRU €109m 4 teams, €27.25m per team
IRFU €86m 4 teams, €21.5m per team
SRU €64.5m 2 teams, €32.25m per team
FIR- couldn't find but was lower than Scotland

SH teams have bigger costs due to more travel expenses at all levels
NZR €156m but was due to the lions
2016 €98m 5 teams, €19.6m per team
RA €96.35m 4 teams, €24m per team (better than Ireland)
SA €75.8m 6 teams, €12.6m per team
UAR can't find but Is alot less than Italy and getting money off WR.


This is a bit misleading. Income and expenditure on the pro teams are not necessarily linked. The WRU could rake in £500m but it doesn’t mean the funding available to the 4 pro regions would increase. They’re not union owned.

Sorry the point was if the system goes belly up in Wales and the WRU had to jump in a bail them out in theory they could put in alot of money to keep these teams afloat. It also has a bearing on how much Union funds to Professional rugby. If the WRU hadn't increased the income they could have stepped in for the Dragon. If you look at Oz because they couldn't jump in they had to drop the Force, they now have more money per team if things go wrong.

SA is the big one as the head union has little funds for their teams.
Italy while worse than Argentina at least have the funds to improve compared to Argentina who are using WR funding to run their team.
Scotland probably have the funds to do a 3rd team which is why they have so much cash floating around.

So the point was more that the NH unions have more money to cover increases in wages, drop in income. Also Wales have the potential to really up their setups if they wanted to or run a 5th team.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:32 am

SecretFly wrote:
the-goon wrote:

Pot Hale, do you know how many NH coaches ply their trade in the SH?

Ireland’s controversial tax deals with companies such as Apple and Google are part of a corrupt global system, which is fuelling inequality and political extremism, including the rise of Donald Trump in the US“

Well that really makes me proud to be Irish, we helped get the D man in the White house! MAGA!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-tax-deals-help-fuel-global-inequality-joseph-stiglitz-1.3311435?mode=amp



Rona O'Gara?

Corrupt Global System: Check.
Inequality: Check.
Political Extremism: Check.
Donald Trump: Check.

I'm with you, goon.  I like that Donald shocked the hell out of the first three by getting to be 4th on the list.

Enjoying the show.

Of course when OGara comes back to Ireland the general consensus is that he will be able to apply all of what he learned in NZ in Ireland to our benifit.

However if Gatland and Schmidt ever return to NZ it will just be two Kiwis bringing all their Kiwi knowledge back home. They have learned nothing in their combined 30 plus years in the NH.

Kiwi logic.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:12 pm

Well only OGara has said his rugby experience was ‘life changing’.

No doubt the two will bring back a lot of experience. Whether its wanted, and if so, successful, is another story.

Same with OGara, its all about how he uses that information and uses it in a way that it produces results. Until then, its all pie in the sky stuff.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:16 pm

If its wanted? Id say if you ran a poll in NZ the majority of rugby fans would want Schmidt as the next NZ coach. Wouldn't you agree?

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:06 pm

Taylorman wrote:Well only OGara has said his rugby experience was ‘life changing’.

No doubt the two will bring back a lot of experience. Whether its wanted, and if so, successful, is another story.

Same with OGara, its all about how he uses that information and uses it in a way that it produces results. Until then, its all pie in the sky stuff.

In fairness to ROG, from all accounts he didn't go empty handed down to NZ - otherwise he wouldn't be down there when you take into account all the NZ coaches who would have been interested in the backs coach of the Crusaders.

Dutchy Holland is another coach who spent his whole playing career in Munster and also various coaching jobs (including Munster Backs coach) before heading back to NZ.

Other Kiwis to do well in Ireland are Doug Howlett who is now Commercial & Marketing Manager for Munster (having completed an MBA in UCC).

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:08 pm

Is O'Gara not assistant backs coach rather than backs coach? It reminds me of David Brent to Gareth: "you are not assistant manager you are an assistant to the manager".

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:14 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Is O'Gara not assistant backs coach rather than backs coach? It reminds me of David Brent to Gareth: "you are not assistant manager you are an assistant to the manager".

ROG is Backs Coach. https://crusaders.co.nz/the-team/coaching-staff
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:16 pm

He must have got promoted and maybe he will get a further promotion as I believe that Brad Mooar is leaving to go to the Scarlets? Or did I make that up?

If I was O'Gara Id stay on for another couple of seasons if possible.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:27 pm

Brad Mooar going to the Scarlets only happened in the last day or so. This is what the Kiwi Press say about him.

The media have also begun to note the impact of O’Gara on the Crusaders, one national outlet observing: ‘O’Gara has impressed in his work with the outside backs, looking after the counter-attack and kicking plans and helping head coach Scott Robertson with the defence.’

With attack, defence and kicking games all going well, O’Gara’s influence is significant and appreciated and the last word goes to the highly popular Kiwi TV broadcaster Scotty ‘Sumo’ Stevenson (think Marty Morrissey), who tweeted simply, “This Ronan O’Gara playbook is awesome” while watching Crusaders dismantle the Blues recently.

https://extra.ie/2018/07/17/sport/rugby/ogara-crusaders-success
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:41 pm

Nice one. They are a good side alright. Id like to see them take on Leinster, I reckon that would be a tight game. Leinster possibly having slightly too much for them.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:44 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Nice one. They are a good side alright. Id like to see them take on Leinster, I reckon that would be a tight game. Leinster possibly having slightly too much for them.

There might be a vacancy coming up shortly (Lancaster to Bath!) - it would be a laugh to see O'Gara and the good Doc on the same coaching team!

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:47 pm

Why do you think Lancaster is going to Bath?

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:49 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Why do you think Lancaster is going to Bath?

Article in one of the Sunday papers saying that he wants to get back to UK - father died recently and he is finding the travel back and forth to England a bit much looking after his mother as well.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:51 pm

Makes sense.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:53 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Makes sense.

Brendan Fanning in Indo:

He says his head is melted with the travel!

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/stuart-lancasters-future-adds-extra-layer-of-intrigue-to-leinsters-bath-visit-37585960.html

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Brendan on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:54 pm

Bath is a bad place to go and not a place to rebuild your head coach credentials. If Lancaster failed there would be get another top job

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by SecretFly on Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:13 pm

With friends like Brendan Fanning you don't need enemies I suppose.  The IRFU will thank him kindly for doing Lancaster's propaganda for him.  For yay, do I remember quite well Lancaster himself saying that the commute over an back to Dublin was no big deal and is decidedly shorter and less stressful than some journeys he might have to make within England itself on motorways or trains.

But of course, Lancaster will now try to up his market value both sides of the Irish sea by outlining the 'difficulties' the present job brings with it.  So - the genuine question come the end of the season is does Lancaster want to go back home to cash in on his value as a club coach.... or does he want to go back to International coaching with Farrell?  No matter which he chooses, he'll obviously want a hike in his salary.  So the psychological games begin.  It seems certain Leinster will lose him anyway.  

Well, well, they gotta train in another super-coach-in-the-making I suppose.  Someone's gotta do it. Wink

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:With friends like Brendan Fanning you don't need enemies I suppose.  The IRFU will thank him kindly for doing Lancaster's propaganda for him.  For yay, do I remember quite well Lancaster himself saying that the commute over an back to Dublin was no big deal and is decidedly shorter and less stressful than some journeys he might have to make within England itself on motorways or trains.

But of course, Lancaster will now try to up his market value both sides of the Irish sea by outlining the 'difficulties' the present job brings with it.  So - the genuine question come the end of the season is does Lancaster want to go back home to cash in on his value as a club coach.... or does he want to go back to International coaching with Farrell?  No matter which he chooses, he'll obviously want a hike in his salary.  So the psychological games begin.  It seems certain Leinster will lose him anyway.  

Well, well, they gotta train in another super-coach-in-the-making I suppose.  Someone's gotta do it. Wink

Hang on, are you and Taylorman the same person?

Jeez - ya sneaky hooer!
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by SecretFly on Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:24 pm

Sure isn't that why I get on so well with him Cool He's a nice lad. I talk to him every morning in the mirror.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:With friends like Brendan Fanning you don't need enemies I suppose.  The IRFU will thank him kindly for doing Lancaster's propaganda for him.  For yay, do I remember quite well Lancaster himself saying that the commute over an back to Dublin was no big deal and is decidedly shorter and less stressful than some journeys he might have to make within England itself on motorways or trains.

But of course, Lancaster will now try to up his market value both sides of the Irish sea by outlining the 'difficulties' the present job brings with it.  So - the genuine question come the end of the season is does Lancaster want to go back home to cash in on his value as a club coach.... or does he want to go back to International coaching with Farrell?  No matter which he chooses, he'll obviously want a hike in his salary.  So the psychological games begin.  It seems certain Leinster will lose him anyway.  

Well, well, they gotta train in another super-coach-in-the-making I suppose.  Someone's gotta do it. Wink

Circumstances have changed. His father died in September and he now has to look after his mother.

You Leinster fans should know how this works (Declan Kidney Wink Wink Wink Wink )
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by miaow on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:14 pm

ebop wrote:England were the last bastion of self-belief in Britain/Ireland but even they crumbled and took on an Aussie. Personally, I think a kiwi would suit the English character more than the American style brash Australian swagger.

From a purely anecdotal, subjective, prejudicial perspective, the Australians are most definitely the English of the South. The Kiwis are more like the Welsh. Or maybe the Scots. Or perhaps some parts of the North of England, too. But not the 'real' English. You know the ones...

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:51 pm

The Lancaster rumour has been around a while, I'll believe it when he signs up. Leeds is three hours from Bath in the car, which is a lot quicker than waiting around in Leeds/Dublin airport.

Blackadder has been a disappointment although also unlucky with the number of injuries during his tenure. The heir apparent in Hooper is seen as the club man but tactically will need a Lancaster type appointment, in the same way Cullen has. How Dempsey will view that remains to be seen but also his impact, thus far has been minimal, although everyone recognises it takes time and perhaps a season.

Lancaster will also know several of the Bath academy players coming through, which will be an attraction and with Louw, Priestland and Faletau (who has been a waste of money) coming to the end of their contracts in the next 18 months, the opportunity to start anew will be there too with a mainly english contingent.

Saying that, the Tigers top job might be coming up soon too, so you never know and are probably the only big clubs to considered /available, apart from Leeds.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:15 pm


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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:00 am

Pot Hale wrote:

Gosh, nearly half.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:49 am

Taylorman wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Gosh, nearly half.

Nearly yes, including the two SA-based teams, or just over a third if not included. I think it’s 4 out of 14 in the French Top 14.
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:57 am

Add 9 NZ coaches out 18 SR coaches this side.
International coaches must be up there as well.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:29 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Some Premiership teams have a Director of Rugby and a Head Coach. For a survey like this, you probably have to choose one of the roles, or decide for each club which individual is doing the role you are trying to count. Or even choose more than one person at a club: you can make a case for both Cullen and Lancaster at Leinster.

Todd Blackadder is DoR at Bath, while Rassie Erasmus is head coach at Gloucester under DoR David Humphries. Richard Cockerill was DoR at Leicester, but everyone appointed to be in charge of Leicester after him has been Head Coach. Ged Glynn is "Head of Rugby Operations" at Leicester which sounds a lot like a DoR role.

Chris Boyd at Saints is a DoR but doesn't have anyone named as a Head Coach under him By all accounts he does a lot of coaching himself. Dean Richards is DoR at Newcastle but spends no time coaching, that's handled by a team with Dave Walder as Head Coach. The media often calls Pat Lam a DoR but his official title is Head Coach, and Mark Tainton, a former Head Coach, is Chief Operating Officer. That's the same dual-role structure which Bristol Sport uses at their football team, Bristol City.

All Premiership teams seem set up slightly differently, which is one reason why anyone recruiting them to another team, or the national set-up, needs to understand what they actually do, and what people they need around them to succeed.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Brendan on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:13 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Some Premiership teams have a Director of Rugby and a Head Coach. For a survey like this, you probably have to choose one of the roles, or decide for each club which individual is doing the role you are trying to count. Or even choose more than one person at a club: you can make a case for both Cullen and Lancaster at Leinster.

Todd Blackadder is DoR at Bath, while Rassie Erasmus is head coach at Gloucester under DoR David Humphries. Richard Cockerill was DoR at Leicester, but everyone appointed to be in charge of Leicester after him has been Head Coach. Ged Glynn is "Head of Rugby Operations" at Leicester which sounds a lot like a DoR role.

Chris Boyd at Saints is a DoR but doesn't have anyone named as a Head Coach under him By all accounts he does a lot of coaching himself. Dean Richards is DoR at Newcastle but spends no time coaching, that's handled by a team with Dave Walder as Head Coach. The media often calls Pat Lam a DoR but his official title is Head Coach, and Mark Tainton, a former Head Coach, is Chief Operating Officer. That's the same dual-role structure which Bristol Sport uses at their football team, Bristol City.

All Premiership teams seem set up slightly differently, which is one reason why anyone recruiting them to another team, or the national set-up, needs to understand what they actually do, and what people they need around them to succeed.

That's a good point. It is so hard some times to work out who does what. I would count the top man who sits with the coaching team in the coaching box for matches as the top guy in terms of coaching the team. Interesting that Scotland and Italy have none

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:54 am

There's a discussion about foreign coaches on this week's Ruck podcast. You don't have to be a Times subscriber to listen to it.

https://www.acast.com/theruck

The guests are Ben Ryan and Nick Easter. After Quins, Nick Easter went down to South Africa to coach, and helped the Sharks win their first Currie Cup title since 2013. He has been invited back to the Super Rugby set-up for next season.

Easter says he has been supported by the RFU, and thinks the union wants to get broader experience for English coaches. Ryan believes the RFU has done a poor job on that front, and thinks there was better planning before. It may be that both are right, and Easter is seeing the benefit of a shift in policy.

Worth listening to the conversation. They touch on ring-fencing the Premiership, the realtive attractions of coaching a club team as opposed to the national side, and the wisdom of coaching overseas.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:01 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Some Premiership teams have a Director of Rugby and a Head Coach. For a survey like this, you probably have to choose one of the roles, or decide for each club which individual is doing the role you are trying to count. Or even choose more than one person at a club: you can make a case for both Cullen and Lancaster at Leinster.

Todd Blackadder is DoR at Bath, while Rassie Erasmus is head coach at Gloucester under DoR David Humphries. Richard Cockerill was DoR at Leicester, but everyone appointed to be in charge of Leicester after him has been Head Coach. Ged Glynn is "Head of Rugby Operations" at Leicester which sounds a lot like a DoR role.

Chris Boyd at Saints is a DoR but doesn't have anyone named as a Head Coach under him By all accounts he does a lot of coaching himself. Dean Richards is DoR at Newcastle but spends no time coaching, that's handled by a team with Dave Walder as Head Coach. The media often calls Pat Lam a DoR but his official title is Head Coach, and Mark Tainton, a former Head Coach, is Chief Operating Officer. That's the same dual-role structure which Bristol Sport uses at their football team, Bristol City.

All Premiership teams seem set up slightly differently, which is one reason why anyone recruiting them to another team, or the national set-up, needs to understand what they actually do, and what people they need around them to succeed.

RF - I was aware of this issue - hence the dual title of DOR/HC.   It wasn’t a survey as I just used the listing for the Premiership on Wiki has and which name they had used with a club as DOR/HC.  

I’ve also looked at the coaching groups in clubs - which have 6-7 key members in most cases.  I analysed the Irish ones in more detail.   What’s interesting about those ones is the number of foreign-born who have played with an Irish club and/or province and then have stayed in the Irish system to start or have a coaching career. I'm interested to see if that is the case also with other clubs.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by miaow on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:09 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:...and Faletau (who has been a waste of money)...

Interesting. Why do you say that? Is that purely due to match time due to injuries and call ups, or something else?

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:06 pm

Good to see Dave Rennie getting results with Glasgow. Classy coach and should be in the mix for one of the Home unions sides with seemingly all three of the SH coaches finishing up.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 pm

Taylorman wrote:Good to see Dave Rennie getting results with Glasgow. Classy coach and should be in the mix for one of the Home unions sides with seemingly all three of the SH coaches finishing up.

Seemingly all three of the SH coaches finishing up?

You’re a bit late with the news there, fulla.

Do you mean Seosamh O’Schmidt, erstwhile Irish citizen, who’s finishing coaching after RWC, and is being replaced by Aindí O’Fearghaill?

Or Warryn Gitlan, longtime home union citizen, Conqueror of SH, being replaced by Wayne Pivac Jones, Head Butti at Llanelli?

Or yer man Edward Jones, the Tasmanian Japanese American Australian devil who’s staying on for another two years to show the newbie the ropes?
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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Cyril on Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:43 pm

Ha, quite so. Maybe he wants Rennie for Scotland. Might be in idea to wait until he’s won something at Glasgow (or at least progressed in the Champions Cup somewhat).

Not sure Taylorman is up to speed on NH affairs. Even when it concerns his own nation’s coaches (or those from his hemisphere).

Cue a rant about stealing SH IP and forcing his countrymen to make better lives for their families through nefarious means. Hell in a handcart. Think about the Haka etc.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:01 pm

Doesnt take much to get you fullas chirping does it. Not really top of my agenda who replaces the NH coaches, was just lookingvat how Rennie was doing so please forgive an obviously gross sin on my behalf. Doh

And Wayne Pivac? Hmm, very limited success here mostly limited to sub Super rugby. Although a fellow Aucklander not high on the books here. But who knows. Maybe he’ll improve. Were Rennie or Cotter approached for any of these positions, if available of course. Lending on your wealth of NH rugby of course, you know, the knowledge that knows where all our players and coaches are going, cos I lose track of it all, theyre everywhere it seems.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Cyril on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:09 pm

Right on cue. Cheers Smile

You had no idea about the situation about any of the coaches. Come on, fellah.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:34 pm

Cyril wrote:Right on cue. Cheers Smile

You had no idea about the situation about any of the coaches. Come on, fellah.

Nope just said that. Why would knowing who fills the coaching spots of overseas teams after a workd cup yet to happen be worth knowing now? Its only of interest to those supporting them surely.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Cyril on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:08 am

Two of the posts you mentioned are already decided and the third is a way out yet. It’s ok to backtrack and admit you’re wrong. However, i’m not Guns so won’t be flirting with you Smile

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:57 am

Wales considered Rennie by all accounts. It probably didn't help his cause much when Pivac's Scarlets handily beat Rennie's Glasgow in last season's Pro14 semi-final.

One of the main advantage's Pivac has is he worked with a lot of the Welsh squad anyway. The disadvantage is that he will almost certainly take Stephen Jones with him, which means the strongest Welsh team has to undergo a management reboot (Jones wasn't named as the new Scarlets coach, so it is assumed he'll go into the national set-up).

Rennie may well get a shot at a national team in the future but you'd imagine he'll need to show a bit more form to convince some unions. Todd Blackadder was well-regarded when he came over but his stint at Bath has not been impressive.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Cyril on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:13 am

I’d like to see the proof that Wales considered Rennie ‘by all accounts’.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:30 am

Cyril wrote:Two of the posts you mentioned are already decided and the third is a way out yet. It’s ok to backtrack and admit you’re wrong. However, i’m not Guns so won’t be flirting with you Smile

Ive now said i didnt know twice. Do u need it in another language perhaps chief?

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:33 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Wales considered Rennie by all accounts. It probably didn't help his cause much when Pivac's Scarlets handily beat Rennie's Glasgow in last season's Pro14 semi-final.

One of the main advantage's Pivac has is he worked with a lot of the Welsh squad anyway. The disadvantage is that he will almost certainly take Stephen Jones with him, which means the strongest Welsh team has to undergo a  management reboot (Jones wasn't named as the new Scarlets coach, so it is assumed he'll go into the national set-up).

Rennie may well get a shot at a national team in the future but you'd imagine he'll need to show a bit more form to convince some unions. Todd Blackadder was well-regarded when he came over but his stint at Bath has not been impressive.

Didnt an understrength glasgow just beat scarlets?  And arent glasgow top of the table os is that justva mirage?

My point being that Rennie has a far better pedigree than Pivac and his Super form is essential when considering a coachibg position. Pivac wouldnt winna post over Rennie here so for part of that equation we have already done some of the spade work for you. Most of it actually.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:59 am

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Wales considered Rennie by all accounts. It probably didn't help his cause much when Pivac's Scarlets handily beat Rennie's Glasgow in last season's Pro14 semi-final.

One of the main advantage's Pivac has is he worked with a lot of the Welsh squad anyway. The disadvantage is that he will almost certainly take Stephen Jones with him, which means the strongest Welsh team has to undergo a  management reboot (Jones wasn't named as the new Scarlets coach, so it is assumed he'll go into the national set-up).

Rennie may well get a shot at a national team in the future but you'd imagine he'll need to show a bit more form to convince some unions. Todd Blackadder was well-regarded when he came over but his stint at Bath has not been impressive.

Didnt an understrength glasgow just beat scarlets?  And arent glasgow top of the table os is that justva mirage?
You know Pivac was named back in July, right? Before this season started?

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Taylorman on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:34 am

Yea deleted my last. Wasnt aimed at you. If thats the case then that will be interesting. Rennies a better coach regardless of his northern effort. Pivac has never been considered a potential AB coach, nowhere near it...even if he is from akld.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 am

Cyril wrote:Two of the posts you mentioned are already decided and the third is a way out yet. It’s ok to backtrack and admit you’re wrong. However, i’m not Guns so won’t be flirting with you Smile

Youre both obsessed with me. Wierdos.

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Re: Some Domestic- and Foreign-born Player & Coach Stats - Nov/Dec 2018

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