Time to sack coaches who duck games?

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Should coaches who duck games be sacked?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 13 Dec 2018, 6:14 pm

Is it time that teams and fans stood up and said no more? Coaches who are well out of their depth decide to duck games, when it’s a game in Ireland or France, are basically sending their players to the slaughterhouse. Allen Clarke and Bernard Jackman (now sacked) spring to mind. News incoming that Clarke has just decided to duck another game, Stade Francais in Paris. His secret weapon? Play average flankers at 2nd row.

Special mention to John Mulvihill, another coach well out of his depth.

Feel free to give a mention.

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Post by Brendan on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:00 am

People sending lambs to the slaughter is more a reflection of poor squad rotation skills. These things usually result in poor season planning and suddenly finding that all their first lines have to be given a break so having no other choice.

Best teams build the second team with the first team.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:05 am

You'd rather they flog the same 15 week in and week out?

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Post by Brendan on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:13 am

marty2086 wrote:You'd rather they flog the same 15 week in and week out?

People always go on about the bench and building the bench. But if one of those bench players start it's terrible and weakens the team.

I'm with you any coach who can't rotate his top 30 into the match day 23 regularly is on a hiding to nothing

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:16 am

Brendan wrote:People sending lambs to the slaughter is more a reflection of poor squad rotation skills.  These things usually result in poor season planning and suddenly finding that all their first lines have to be given a break so having no other choice.

Best teams build the second team with the first team.

Easy to say that when you have oodles of money to do it. Rolling Eyes

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:People sending lambs to the slaughter is more a reflection of poor squad rotation skills.  These things usually result in poor season planning and suddenly finding that all their first lines have to be given a break so having no other choice.

Best teams build the second team with the first team.

Easy to say that when you have oodles of money to do it. Rolling Eyes

It doesn't take oodles of money, it takes planning and budget management

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:39 am

Brendan wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You'd rather they flog the same 15 week in and week out?

People always go on about the bench and building the bench.  But if one of those bench players start it's terrible and weakens the team.

I'm with you any coach who can't rotate his top 30 into the match day 23 regularly is on a hiding to nothing

Ulster did it this season at Munster and got humiliated, the last time they won in Munster they done the same and won. The attritional nature of the game means you can't play the same players every week, they either burn out, get injured or break down all together. With the run of big games a lot of clubs are facing some tough choices need to be made, do you go all out and take a risk, do you rotate here and there or do you pick your battles. The best barometer is the table at the end of the season

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Post by Brendan on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 6:07 pm

Lord if you have 6 frontrowers they should all start games.  If out of 3 games your front liners start 2 games and back up starts one you should have two frontlines and a back up for league games.  You could even be adventurous and put your 3rd choice on the bench before injuries happen in a few games.  Ask Scotland/Edinburgh how your back up frontrows might be good if they get the proper run of games

Same with locks, you have 3 in your 23 use them not the same 2 each game.

Our league is so diverse that some teams have weak packs so you can match accordingly. If you play the kings you should be playing one way with players for that style game.  When you play Edinburgh it's a different type of game so should not be using the same players.  Coaches that don't know how to rotate is a reflection of other failings.

It's when teams send a complete 2nd team to be smashed it is the coach saying they are better than us I have no clue what to do to win so I will send a team so I won't be questioned for being bad.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 8:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:You'd rather they flog the same 15 week in and week out?

Read what Brendan said, he’s got it spot on. You must have a loser mentality like your fellow man Clarke.

Not always about money either, teams like Leinster and Saracens have mostly academy guys in their squad and each have good depth.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 10:11 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You'd rather they flog the same 15 week in and week out?

Read what Brendan said, he’s got it spot on. You must have a loser mentality like your fellow man Clarke.

Not always about money either, teams like Leinster and Saracens have mostly academy guys in their squad and each have good depth.

Not sure what point you're making here? Headscratch

Ignoring the fact that Saracens only about 10 academy graduates in a squad of nearly 50 meaning they don't mostly have academy guys

That loser mentality of Connachts really hurt them tonight, played a weakened team and won in France. Looks like if you do things right it pays off Whistle

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:20 pm

marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You'd rather they flog the same 15 week in and week out?

Read what Brendan said, he’s got it spot on. You must have a loser mentality like your fellow man Clarke.

Not always about money either, teams like Leinster and Saracens have mostly academy guys in their squad and each have good depth.

Not sure what point you're making here? Headscratch

Ignoring the fact that Saracens only about 10 academy graduates in a squad of nearly 50 meaning they don't mostly have academy guys

That loser mentality of Connachts really hurt them tonight, played a weakened team and won in France. Looks like if you do things right it pays off Whistle

Well your point was that teams should play the same 15 every week, when a match day squad is 23 players so you’re pretty clueless. I think Brendan explained it pretty well but somehow you still don’t understand.

No it’s your loser mentality, not Connachts. Not sure who they played but would assume the French team also did the same. Leinster can make a lot of changes and still win, it’s called depth. If you don’t have depth then don’t send your team to Ireland or France in a competitive fixture. Yes it should be done right. Welsh teams aren’t doing it right, except for Scarlets under Pivac. Two of the others have coaches well out of their depth, and the other doesn’t have a coach.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Dec 2018, 11:30 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:

Well your point was that teams should play the same 15 every week, when a match day squad is 23 players so you’re pretty clueless.

My point when I asked a question you mean? Talk about clueless Rolling Eyes

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 12:50 am

You’re the only one asking, so clearly it wasn’t clear and obvious to you that a match day squad is 23 players. I can’t remember a time that a team started and finished with the same 15.

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Post by TJ on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 6:37 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:People sending lambs to the slaughter is more a reflection of poor squad rotation skills.  These things usually result in poor season planning and suddenly finding that all their first lines have to be given a break so having no other choice.

Best teams build the second team with the first team.

Easy to say that when you have oodles of money to do it. Rolling Eyes

It doesn't take oodles of money, it takes planning and budget management
Glasgow manage it on smaller budgets than most - and similar size budgets to the Welsh.  Its about not spending all your money on a few stars, its about making sure you have 30+ players all who can rotate seamlessly.  Highest paid player in Scotland is rumoured to be Hogg on £300 000 pa.  Who are the highest paid in Wales - I bet a dozen players on twice that.

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 10:43 am

TJ wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:People sending lambs to the slaughter is more a reflection of poor squad rotation skills.  These things usually result in poor season planning and suddenly finding that all their first lines have to be given a break so having no other choice.

Best teams build the second team with the first team.

Easy to say that when you have oodles of money to do it. Rolling Eyes

It doesn't take oodles of money, it takes planning and budget management
Glasgow manage it on smaller budgets than most - and similar size budgets to the Welsh.  Its about not spending all your money on a few stars, its about making sure you have 30+ players all who can rotate seamlessly.  Highest paid player in Scotland is rumoured to be Hogg on £300 000 pa.  Who are the highest paid in Wales - I bet a dozen players on twice that.

No, the dragons broke the bank to get Moriarty - Wales’ highest paid player on £500k I believe. So no one on £600k. And definitely not a dozen of them!
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Post by Brendan on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 1:11 pm

I may have miss understood Marty but I read his as implying that if you want coaches sacked for playing weaken teams the only way a coach can not get sacked is by flogging the first 15

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 1:31 pm

I read Marty as saying that if you don’t rotate (and rotating is what Mikey seemed to have an issue with) then you end up playing the same 15 week in week out, which would mean they get flogged and that wouldn’t be good either as they’d be injured and too knackered before the end of the season.

Do it win?! Very Happy
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Post by The Oracle on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 1:47 pm

I agree with Lord Dowlais (for once!). It’s easy to rotate when you have quality players throughout the squad. Mikey has taken issue with the Ospreys for sending out a weak team to France (which actually didn’t do too badly, ‘only’ losing 12-3). But if they had real depth and quality throughout the squad then there wouldn’t be an issue with rotation as the rotated squad would still look good on paper.

At the Dragons this point is at its most stark. We can’t play the best front rowers every game, obviously, so those games where we send out our 2nd or 3rd choice props we get absolutely munched because they are not that good (hence why they are 2nd or 3rd choice at a team like the Dragons). We then get accusations of throwing the game, but we’re just doing what every other team does. It’s just more noticeable when poor teams do it. Of course the ambition is to have 45-50 quality players but budgets do not always allow it. I agree that a club shouldn’t spunk all their money on a few marquee players. Yet for years the dragons have been criticised on these very boards, and in the press, for lacking the ambition to bring in big players. It’s a chicken and egg thing. Personally I wouldn’t have spalshed £500k (1/10th) of our budget on Moriarty. It’s like splashing most of your budget on Alan Hansen or Tony Adams! He’s a defender at the end of the day! But I can see why they did it in order to try to kick start the region, make other players perhaps take notice and see it as a place to come, etc.

I agree it is about management and, if you’ve got the right squad, then playing ‘horses for courses’ players to suit the opponent as Brendan suggests. But my god it’s difficult when your 2nd or 3rd choice are rubbish! E.g. “We’re playing Kings so let’s rest our not-so-good 1st choice props and put in those regional rejects we have in the squad” (harsh but true), and then Kings get the upper hand in the scrums and beat us anyway! Much easier when you’re minted, but then that’s just pro sport for you anyway.


Last edited by The Oracle on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 15 Dec 2018, 6:25 pm

Brendan wrote:I may have miss understood Marty but I read his as implying that if you want coaches sacked for playing weaken teams the only way a coach can not get sacked is by flogging the first 15

Ducking games is a huge bugbear of mine. Nobody (myself included) suggested playing the same 15 every week. It’s a daft question too. As previously alluded to you make sensible rotations, not change an entire 15 and send them to play Ulster, such was the case with Jackman. There was also that time he was purposely ducking games to pointlessly target a home game against Cardiff, which we also lost Rolling Eyes

Ospreys match against Stade was winnable then, indicated by the score. They did well, but they have a good squad and Clarke isn’t managing them well. I think you’re also forgetting the scores against Munster, Leinster and Glasgow. Just another coach out of his depth but that’s welsh rugby for you.

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Post by marty2086 on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 4:57 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Brendan wrote:I may have miss understood Marty but I read his as implying that if you want coaches sacked for playing weaken teams the only way a coach can not get sacked is by flogging the first 15

Ducking games is a huge bugbear of mine. Nobody (myself included) suggested playing the same 15 every week. It’s a daft question too. As previously alluded to you make sensible rotations, not change an entire 15 and send them to play Ulster, such was the case with Jackman. There was also that time he was purposely ducking games to pointlessly target a home game against Cardiff, which we also lost Rolling Eyes

Ospreys match against Stade was winnable then, indicated by the score. They did well, but they have a good squad and Clarke isn’t managing them well. I think you’re also forgetting the scores against Munster, Leinster and Glasgow. Just another coach out of his depth but that’s welsh rugby for you.

Who is ducking games? Sending front line players to Dublin to play Leinster and lose convincingly isn't doing them any good if the next week those front line players aren't up to beating a Zebre or Kings. Coaches are picking their battles, it's a short term sacrifice in the hope of long term gains being that they acheive their goals for the season and expose other players who can step up later in the season or the next season and give greater strength in depth

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 5:37 pm

Allen Clarke and BJ are ducking games. I’m sure there’s more, hence this thread for the real rugby people to vent their frustration at it. You should go out with the belief you can win every game, not admit that you can’t so you don’t even try - that’s such poor leadership and management, it has no place in the professional arena.

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Post by marty2086 on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 5:42 pm

Ignore reality you mean? Is losing one game and winning another better or worse than losing two games?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 5:46 pm

Marty you don’t seem to understand, or you’re just ignoring what me and others have already said. Maybe try reading it again as you’re becoming a little repetitive.

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Post by marty2086 on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 5:50 pm

No Im pointing out the stupidity in your argument, coaches are dealing in with the reality of the situation they are in, you want them to bury their head in the sand and pretend they are invincible. Leinster routinely change their whole XV for a third sting never mind a second string, yet they win, would you accuse them of ducking games?

Coaches have limited resources, some see it as futile using those resources in a game they don't consider to be as important as another

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 6:00 pm

It’s already been written there for you and you’re still asking the same questions. If you don’t agree just move on instead of getting yourself worked up over and over again...

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Post by miaow on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 6:51 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Allen Clarke and BJ are ducking games.

BJ's going to be ducking lots of games from now on.

Unless you mean a different kind of BJ.

And a different kind of ducking...

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 11:11 pm

Ouch.

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Post by marty2086 on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 11:56 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:It’s already been written there for you and you’re still asking the same questions. If you don’t agree just move on instead of getting yourself worked up over and over again...

Irony right there

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Post by Brendan on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 9:03 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Brendan wrote:I may have miss understood Marty but I read his as implying that if you want coaches sacked for playing weaken teams the only way a coach can not get sacked is by flogging the first 15

Ducking games is a huge bugbear of mine. Nobody (myself included) suggested playing the same 15 every week. It’s a daft question too. As previously alluded to you make sensible rotations, not change an entire 15 and send them to play Ulster, such was the case with Jackman. There was also that time he was purposely ducking games to pointlessly target a home game against Cardiff, which we also lost Rolling Eyes

Ospreys match against Stade was winnable then, indicated by the score. They did well, but they have a good squad and Clarke isn’t managing them well. I think you’re also forgetting the scores against Munster, Leinster and Glasgow. Just another coach out of his depth but that’s welsh rugby for you.

I can't understand the Ospreys call. They were top of the table and should have been winning that game. Dragons I understand but Ospreys threw away that game

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 9:45 am

Blackadder has been ducking games all year, unfortunately so have the players.
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