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Post by super_realist on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 8:40 am

First topic message reminder :

Diggers wrote:On another note I’ve been teaching Spanish as part of my job this year, tricky when I don’t speak a word...or didn’t. Been using Duolingo for 3 weeks, still very early but amazing how quickly it helps you pick things up. Also asked the wife for some CD’s for Xmas to listen to on my commute. There is a Spanish guy who works for the premises team so when I feel a bit more confident Ill try some conversational Spanish with him.
Anyway, early but that’s my new year resolution, to follow it through and at least be competent, partly to help with my job and partly because Uve always wanted to learn a language, partly because I really think learning new stuff keeps your brain fresher.
Anyone else have something they really want to learn to do?


I'm not trying to be confrontational here Diggers, but how on earth can a school let someone without the skills in a subject to teach it? I can see how someone could blag teaching something like art, PE, English etc, but not a language. I suppose if it's at Primary Level you could teach counting to ten, asking where the railway station is etc.
I presume it's not secondary school?

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Post by Diggers on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 7:31 am

The fact is it’s the circle of life, the young moan about their lot in life, how the old have ruined it. The old call the young slackers. Happens every generation, also my generation had plenty of expectant tools who wanted it all in a plate.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 7:43 am

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:Buying a home in certain places has always been out of reach for many. In London for example, it's always been expensive.

Foreign travel is cheaper and easier  these days, more choice of degrees and more universities to choose from plus you can get in with Mac level grades, information via internet is easier and cheaper to gain access to than ever before, far more entertainment options, meeting other people is easier than ever, food as a proportion of your salary is much cheaper than 30 years ago, long term low interest rates, relatively stable inflation,  very cheap car ownership options, standard of living is much higher, technology is better and cheaper (e.g computing), homes are better quality, better insulated, better equipped, travelling is easier with things like Air BnB. Even looking at the variety and types of food and drink we have these days is better than a generation ago. Tons of internships available, graduate training schemes, very little disruption due to industrial action.

I don't think the young realise just how bleak things were 30 years ago, it really was grim up north. They don't know what a tough life was.  Go back a bit further and it was even worse, constant strikes, 3 day week, 40 bin bags piled up in your back gardens etc.

The most annoying thing about the young though is many seem to feel entitled to a well paid job without having the slightest bit of experience. They seem to think that just because you have a degree and you'd like to live in London that they should be given 60k. They aren't willing to work their way up the way they used to.

I bought a 2 bed flat in London 20 years ago, needed a 5k deposit. I've bought 5 London properties in my life so feel I know what I'm talking about, I can categorically tell you it's way, way tougher to buy now. You are looking at a 40k minimum deposit for that same flat I bought..in a high risk housing market that has finally bottomed out.
I also grew up in the north east, yep, was tough at times, but actually there far more opportunity to get a trade and what I would call a decent job. I go back to my home town and it far more depressed than when I grew up there, less shops, less opportunities. That's the view of everyone I know there. So I know firsthand what it was like 30 years ago and IMO it's grimmer now.
The other things you mention, well, I don't see internships as a positive, they benefit those who can afford them. If you'd lived down in the south east you'd know about industrial action, the trains were crippled for 3 years and we've had bin bags overflowing in the streets of Brighton on numerous occasions.
Like I said earlier, it's a hard thing to judge, life has changed massively, no doubt about that. From my own experience, I'd take the era I grew up in over this one, wouldn't even blink.




Like I said Diggers, take London out of it, and I don't see life being any harder at all for "young" people.
For instance, It 'm sure people will bring up the Labour party's brilliant tuition fees. We have just hired a graduate, and although she has considerable debt, she has to pay it off at a rate of something like £6 a week according to her. Furthermore, we're actually paying to put her through an MSc part time and paying her a salary well above what she should be getting as someone with limited experience. Couldn't get much more cushy than that.

I don't see much else other than London housing being any more difficult for the young of today.

London is bloody expensive, but I've no idea why anyone would want to live there unless you're on a salary in excess of £120k. There's plenty jobs in every discipline around the country, hardly any young person these days is actually required to live in London.

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Post by dynamark on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 8:06 am

Ah Luncheon vouchers they were. t days.
I can only agree re London why would you want to live there and get involved in all that cost.
Social housing though still in very very short supply but £175 a week gets a nice place in wembley or Greenwich at about 25% of private rents.
Work is plentiful if you get out of bed.In my area Places like Lutterworth and North west Leics(former mining area) have literally no unemployment other than transition due partly to huge distribution hubs.My son 26 has two jobs at present main job want him to do as many as there is and offering an incentive to staff to bring new people in . The deposit thing is a issue and propbably got too big but remember what happened when you could go no deposit

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Post by Diggers on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 8:20 am

super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:Buying a home in certain places has always been out of reach for many. In London for example, it's always been expensive.

Foreign travel is cheaper and easier  these days, more choice of degrees and more universities to choose from plus you can get in with Mac level grades, information via internet is easier and cheaper to gain access to than ever before, far more entertainment options, meeting other people is easier than ever, food as a proportion of your salary is much cheaper than 30 years ago, long term low interest rates, relatively stable inflation,  very cheap car ownership options, standard of living is much higher, technology is better and cheaper (e.g computing), homes are better quality, better insulated, better equipped, travelling is easier with things like Air BnB. Even looking at the variety and types of food and drink we have these days is better than a generation ago. Tons of internships available, graduate training schemes, very little disruption due to industrial action.

I don't think the young realise just how bleak things were 30 years ago, it really was grim up north. They don't know what a tough life was.  Go back a bit further and it was even worse, constant strikes, 3 day week, 40 bin bags piled up in your back gardens etc.

The most annoying thing about the young though is many seem to feel entitled to a well paid job without having the slightest bit of experience. They seem to think that just because you have a degree and you'd like to live in London that they should be given 60k. They aren't willing to work their way up the way they used to.

I bought a 2 bed flat in London 20 years ago, needed a 5k deposit. I've bought 5 London properties in my life so feel I know what I'm talking about, I can categorically tell you it's way, way tougher to buy now. You are looking at a 40k minimum deposit for that same flat I bought..in a high risk housing market that has finally bottomed out.
I also grew up in the north east, yep, was tough at times, but actually there far more opportunity to get a trade and what I would call a decent job. I go back to my home town and it far more depressed than when I grew up there, less shops, less opportunities. That's the view of everyone I know there. So I know firsthand what it was like 30 years ago and IMO it's grimmer now.
The other things you mention, well, I don't see internships as a positive, they benefit those who can afford them. If you'd lived down in the south east you'd know about industrial action, the trains were crippled for 3 years and we've had bin bags overflowing in the streets of Brighton on numerous occasions.
Like I said earlier, it's a hard thing to judge, life has changed massively, no doubt about that. From my own experience, I'd take the era I grew up in over this one, wouldn't even blink.




Like I said Diggers, take London out of it, and I don't see life being any harder at all for "young" people.
For instance, It 'm sure people will bring up the Labour party's brilliant tuition fees. We have just hired a graduate, and although she has considerable debt, she has to pay it off at a rate of something like £6 a week according to her. Furthermore, we're actually paying to put her through an MSc part time and paying her a salary well above what she should be getting as  someone with limited experience. Couldn't get much more cushy than that.

I don't see much else other than London housing being any more difficult for the young of today.

London is bloody expensive, but I've no idea why anyone would want to live there unless you're on a salary in excess of £120k. There's plenty jobs in every discipline around the country, hardly any young person these days is actually required to live in London.

It's not just London, it's the south east, 10 million people. In fact, anywhere you'd actually want to live, has really high house prices. Average house price buyer age is now 30 compared to 23 back in the 60's.
Re your student, again, I and my friends had no debt, we got tuition paid for and also living grants. PGCE courses were free, loads of subsidiused courses. So I fail to see how your example makes life easier for today's kids.
Just listening to the Tory housing minister admitting today that the housing crisis amongst the young is spiraling, massive policy coming out today (about time) to tray and tackle it.
Sure, plenty of good things but equally an awful lot of crap to deal with, plus the potential fall out of the Brexit farce.


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Post by super_realist on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 8:23 am

By the way, what a coward Harold Steptoe Corbyn is, tabling a no confidence motion in May, which is non binding, when he could have tabled a no confidence vote in the government shows he's terrified he can't win a GE or he doesn't want to be PM.
The guy is a joke. All bluster and no actual balls to back it up. Why do Labour backers think he's a good leader? Couldn't they actually put someone in charge who can actually challenge the government? He's no more than a grumpier, older and uglier Milliband.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 8:25 am

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:Buying a home in certain places has always been out of reach for many. In London for example, it's always been expensive.

Foreign travel is cheaper and easier  these days, more choice of degrees and more universities to choose from plus you can get in with Mac level grades, information via internet is easier and cheaper to gain access to than ever before, far more entertainment options, meeting other people is easier than ever, food as a proportion of your salary is much cheaper than 30 years ago, long term low interest rates, relatively stable inflation,  very cheap car ownership options, standard of living is much higher, technology is better and cheaper (e.g computing), homes are better quality, better insulated, better equipped, travelling is easier with things like Air BnB. Even looking at the variety and types of food and drink we have these days is better than a generation ago. Tons of internships available, graduate training schemes, very little disruption due to industrial action.

I don't think the young realise just how bleak things were 30 years ago, it really was grim up north. They don't know what a tough life was.  Go back a bit further and it was even worse, constant strikes, 3 day week, 40 bin bags piled up in your back gardens etc.

The most annoying thing about the young though is many seem to feel entitled to a well paid job without having the slightest bit of experience. They seem to think that just because you have a degree and you'd like to live in London that they should be given 60k. They aren't willing to work their way up the way they used to.

I bought a 2 bed flat in London 20 years ago, needed a 5k deposit. I've bought 5 London properties in my life so feel I know what I'm talking about, I can categorically tell you it's way, way tougher to buy now. You are looking at a 40k minimum deposit for that same flat I bought..in a high risk housing market that has finally bottomed out.
I also grew up in the north east, yep, was tough at times, but actually there far more opportunity to get a trade and what I would call a decent job. I go back to my home town and it far more depressed than when I grew up there, less shops, less opportunities. That's the view of everyone I know there. So I know firsthand what it was like 30 years ago and IMO it's grimmer now.
The other things you mention, well, I don't see internships as a positive, they benefit those who can afford them. If you'd lived down in the south east you'd know about industrial action, the trains were crippled for 3 years and we've had bin bags overflowing in the streets of Brighton on numerous occasions.
Like I said earlier, it's a hard thing to judge, life has changed massively, no doubt about that. From my own experience, I'd take the era I grew up in over this one, wouldn't even blink.




Like I said Diggers, take London out of it, and I don't see life being any harder at all for "young" people.
For instance, It 'm sure people will bring up the Labour party's brilliant tuition fees. We have just hired a graduate, and although she has considerable debt, she has to pay it off at a rate of something like £6 a week according to her. Furthermore, we're actually paying to put her through an MSc part time and paying her a salary well above what she should be getting as  someone with limited experience. Couldn't get much more cushy than that.

I don't see much else other than London housing being any more difficult for the young of today.

London is bloody expensive, but I've no idea why anyone would want to live there unless you're on a salary in excess of £120k. There's plenty jobs in every discipline around the country, hardly any young person these days is actually required to live in London.

It's not just London, it's the south east, 10 million people. In fact, anywhere you'd actually want to live, has really high house prices. Average house price buyer age is now 30 compared to 23 back in the 60's.
Re your student, again, I and my friends had no debt, we got tuition paid for and also living grants. PGCE courses were free, loads of subsidiused courses. So I fail to see how your example makes life easier for today's kids.
Just listening to the Tory housing minister admitting today that the housing crisis amongst the young is spiraling, massive policy coming out today (about time) to tray and tackle it.
Sure, plenty of good things but equally an awful lot of crap to deal with, plus the potential fall out of the Brexit farce.


Life is easier Diggers because paying back the student loan is the equivalent of a pint and a half a week and it is estimated that up to 50% of student debt will not have to be paid back anyway.
I had student debt from my studies, but I wasn't crying that it was unfair or that the older generation had it easy. I wish people would stop moaning about how hard they have it these days. Just put in some effort and stop expecting things to be done for you all the time.

Why are people so obsessed with property ownership anyway? It's not a big thing in other countries and owning a place is not a human right and if I was a 25 year old graduate in London the expectation I should have enough capital to buy a house would be about the same as expecting to drive an Aston Martin.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 8:36 am

How is having to pay back a loan easier than having no loan? That's just an insane comment. And I know lots of people from the 90's who did have loans who moaned about it...it's not a new thing.
I'm assuming you don't won a property then?
It's not just about buying a house, I couldn't go and rent in London anymore, the move I made in my early 20's would be too expensive now. I've worked in London for a long time, the kids getting the great jobs largely lived with their parents in the south east, all had help.
Again, your whole argument seems to be based on lumping a group of people you hate together. They are all slackers, they all moan. Truth is they are no different to any other generation.
Is there any group of people you don't hate?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 8:53 am

Diggers wrote:The fact is it’s the circle of life, the young moan about their lot in life, how the old have ruined it. The old call the young slackers. Happens every generation, also my generation had plenty of expectant tools who wanted it all in a plate.
OK
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Post by JAS on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 9:13 am

super_realist wrote:By the way, what a coward Harold Steptoe Corbyn is, tabling a no confidence motion in May, which is non binding, when he could have tabled a no confidence vote in the government shows he's terrified he can't win a GE or he doesn't want to be PM.
The guy is a joke. All bluster and no actual balls to back it up. Why do Labour backers think he's a good leader? Couldn't they actually put someone in charge who can actually challenge the government? He's no more than a grumpier, older and uglier Milliband.

Or maybe he made the obvious calculation that Tories who don’t like May and her lack of direction may vote the right way on this one but would act like turkeys voting for Xmas in a government NC vote. It’s amusing that you choose to character assassinate Corbyn whilst completely overlooking how he’s exposed to total duplicitous behaviour of the supposed Tory rebels. They’re not rebels at all they are the spineless sheep in all this. If they’re so convinced that Corbyn is a failure and May is a flop why don’t they back a Govt NC motion, get a new leader and romp the GE then??

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 9:16 am

The property bubble is overdue an enormous crash. Property value increases of higher than wage inflation have been going on for decades and it's completely unsustainable. Problem is, too many MPs are landlords, so they'll do chuff all about it.

How anyone can live (rental or own) within the M25 is beyond me. How does London attract teachers, nurses, cleaners etc etc, when it costs as much, if not more, to rent than to buy, and buying's a non-starter? More than time to get rid of so-called 'London-weighting' in pay etc as it's helping to sustain a stupid scenario.

Prices are out of control pretty much everywhere. My mum's house outside Bristol is a 4-bed (extended) semi built in 1912; "worth" nearly £500,000 now. Was in Norfolk (near Hunstanton) for kids' October half-term this year; 2-bed semi we saw while there and looked up on market was available at 'offers' over £380,000.

No-one is actually building 'affordable' housing and even when they do, the first owners sell it on for a stupid profit, taking it out of the 'affordable' market. Councils who sold off council housing after Thatcher's wonderful idea never replaced them. Banks are giving away 'buy-to-let' mortgages for landlords to charge a fortune. Chinese (although take your pick, it's not just them) are buying up (i.e. investing in) new build developments and whole swathes are often then empty. Parts of the country are empty of 'locals' all year round and dead between Monday-Thursday of every week because wealthy people from elsewhere in the country have bought up 'holiday homes', but most of the time they get Council Tax discounts as their little nest eggs are considered empty most of the time. Alternatively, they rent them out at a huge profit as holiday rentals. Children of any 'locals' left in whole tracts of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Norfolk etc etc have no hope whatsoever of buying anything where they've grown up.

This Country is FUBAR. No money for anything - the NHS, education (at all levels), the police, fire services, armed forces, road repairs, disability support, the homeless, Council budgets in general etc. You could go on and on. Politicians of all persuasions not being honest with the Electorate about the state of the Country. Etc etc etc etc.

Merry Christmas...
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Post by JAS on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 9:44 am

navyblueshorts wrote:The property bubble is overdue an enormous crash. Property value increases of higher than wage inflation have been going on for decades and it's completely unsustainable. Problem is, too many MPs are landlords, so they'll do chuff all about it.

How anyone can live (rental or own) within the M25 is beyond me. How does London attract teachers, nurses, cleaners etc etc, when it costs as much, if not more, to rent than to buy, and buying's a non-starter? More than time to get rid of so-called 'London-weighting' in pay etc as it's helping to sustain a stupid scenario.

Prices are out of control pretty much everywhere. My mum's house outside Bristol is a 4-bed (extended) semi built in 1912; "worth" nearly £500,000 now. Was in Norfolk (near Hunstanton) for kids' October half-term this year; 2-bed semi we saw while there and looked up on market was available at 'offers' over £380,000.

No-one is actually building 'affordable' housing and even when they do, the first owners sell it on for a stupid profit, taking it out of the 'affordable' market. Councils who sold off council housing after Thatcher's wonderful idea never replaced them. Banks are giving away 'buy-to-let' mortgages for landlords to charge a fortune. Chinese (although take your pick, it's not just them) are buying up (i.e. investing in) new build developments and whole swathes are often then empty. Parts of the country are empty of 'locals' all year round and dead between Monday-Thursday of every week because wealthy people from elsewhere in the country have bought up 'holiday homes', but most of the time they get Council Tax discounts as their little nest eggs are considered empty most of the time. Alternatively, they rent them out at a huge profit as holiday rentals. Children of any 'locals' left in whole tracts of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Norfolk etc etc have no hope whatsoever of buying anything where they've grown up.

This Country is FUBAR. No money for anything - the NHS, education (at all levels), the police, fire services, armed forces, road repairs, disability support, the homeless, Council budgets in general etc. You could go on and on. Politicians of all persuasions not being honest with the Electorate about the state of the Country. Etc etc etc etc.

Merry Christmas...

Not a bad summary Navy, you’re right regarding property, the current state really is unsustainable, infact it was that way before the 2008 crash and it’s got back to that. A correction (not sure it would be another full on crash) simply has to come.

Having said that, it’s not our obsession with property ownership that’s the issue, it’s our expectation of continually rising prices and therefore the accumulation of “wealth”. Society seems geared toward perpetuating an environment where we all think we’re wealthier than we are. Mortgage debt in this country is at frightening levels but that’s ok as long as the market continues to grow. What is more sinister is credit card debt. That’s also at eye watering levels.
Basically the public have been fed (almost said force fed but it’s not quite everybody has a choice) debt for the last 30 odd years, mainly to disguise the fact that real wages for most (other than for the top 5-10%) have been slipping back.


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Post by Diggers on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 10:03 am

JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:The property bubble is overdue an enormous crash. Property value increases of higher than wage inflation have been going on for decades and it's completely unsustainable. Problem is, too many MPs are landlords, so they'll do chuff all about it.

How anyone can live (rental or own) within the M25 is beyond me. How does London attract teachers, nurses, cleaners etc etc, when it costs as much, if not more, to rent than to buy, and buying's a non-starter? More than time to get rid of so-called 'London-weighting' in pay etc as it's helping to sustain a stupid scenario.

Prices are out of control pretty much everywhere. My mum's house outside Bristol is a 4-bed (extended) semi built in 1912; "worth" nearly £500,000 now. Was in Norfolk (near Hunstanton) for kids' October half-term this year; 2-bed semi we saw while there and looked up on market was available at 'offers' over £380,000.

No-one is actually building 'affordable' housing and even when they do, the first owners sell it on for a stupid profit, taking it out of the 'affordable' market. Councils who sold off council housing after Thatcher's wonderful idea never replaced them. Banks are giving away 'buy-to-let' mortgages for landlords to charge a fortune. Chinese (although take your pick, it's not just them) are buying up (i.e. investing in) new build developments and whole swathes are often then empty. Parts of the country are empty of 'locals' all year round and dead between Monday-Thursday of every week because wealthy people from elsewhere in the country have bought up 'holiday homes', but most of the time they get Council Tax discounts as their little nest eggs are considered empty most of the time. Alternatively, they rent them out at a huge profit as holiday rentals. Children of any 'locals' left in whole tracts of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Norfolk etc etc have no hope whatsoever of buying anything where they've grown up.

This Country is FUBAR. No money for anything - the NHS, education (at all levels), the police, fire services, armed forces, road repairs, disability support, the homeless, Council budgets in general etc. You could go on and on. Politicians of all persuasions not being honest with the Electorate about the state of the Country. Etc etc etc etc.

Merry Christmas...

Not a bad summary Navy, you’re right regarding property, the current state really is unsustainable, infact it was that way before the 2008 crash and it’s got back to that. A correction (not sure it would be another full on crash) simply has to come.

Having said that, it’s not our obsession with property ownership that’s the issue, it’s our expectation of continually rising prices and therefore the accumulation of “wealth”. Society seems geared toward perpetuating an environment where we all think we’re wealthier than we are. Mortgage debt in this country is at frightening levels but that’s ok as long as the market continues to grow. What is more sinister is credit card debt. That’s also at eye watering levels.
Basically the public have been fed (almost said force fed but it’s not quite everybody has a choice) debt for the last 30 odd years, mainly to disguise the fact that real wages for most (other than for the top 5-10%) have been slipping back.


The property market is a weird one. If you go back to 4 or 5% interest rates you were paying more interest but on less money borrowed. Now you pay less interest but on a bigger sum. Clearly the more you borrow the bigger the risk if the market crashes. I'm not sure it will crash but it's certainly very flat in the south east, most people I know who have tried to move have given up.
Not sure you can blame MP's for inflated prices, lots of people bought into the game of pushing up prices, punters, brokers, lenders. I'm a landlord, we've had the same tenant for 10 years. They are a family and we try to keep the rent low and they treat the flat as their home. Buy to let is on the way out, no real perks to it anymore, tax breaks have mainly gone.
Wealth is all about perception, certainly thinking you are wealthy because you have a lot of equity is a dangerous game.



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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 10:20 am

Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:The property bubble is overdue an enormous crash. Property value increases of higher than wage inflation have been going on for decades and it's completely unsustainable. Problem is, too many MPs are landlords, so they'll do chuff all about it.

How anyone can live (rental or own) within the M25 is beyond me. How does London attract teachers, nurses, cleaners etc etc, when it costs as much, if not more, to rent than to buy, and buying's a non-starter? More than time to get rid of so-called 'London-weighting' in pay etc as it's helping to sustain a stupid scenario.

Prices are out of control pretty much everywhere. My mum's house outside Bristol is a 4-bed (extended) semi built in 1912; "worth" nearly £500,000 now. Was in Norfolk (near Hunstanton) for kids' October half-term this year; 2-bed semi we saw while there and looked up on market was available at 'offers' over £380,000.

No-one is actually building 'affordable' housing and even when they do, the first owners sell it on for a stupid profit, taking it out of the 'affordable' market. Councils who sold off council housing after Thatcher's wonderful idea never replaced them. Banks are giving away 'buy-to-let' mortgages for landlords to charge a fortune. Chinese (although take your pick, it's not just them) are buying up (i.e. investing in) new build developments and whole swathes are often then empty. Parts of the country are empty of 'locals' all year round and dead between Monday-Thursday of every week because wealthy people from elsewhere in the country have bought up 'holiday homes', but most of the time they get Council Tax discounts as their little nest eggs are considered empty most of the time. Alternatively, they rent them out at a huge profit as holiday rentals. Children of any 'locals' left in whole tracts of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Norfolk etc etc have no hope whatsoever of buying anything where they've grown up.

This Country is FUBAR. No money for anything - the NHS, education (at all levels), the police, fire services, armed forces, road repairs, disability support, the homeless, Council budgets in general etc. You could go on and on. Politicians of all persuasions not being honest with the Electorate about the state of the Country. Etc etc etc etc.

Merry Christmas...

Not a bad summary Navy, you’re right regarding property, the current state really is unsustainable, infact it was that way before the 2008 crash and it’s got back to that. A correction (not sure it would be another full on crash) simply has to come.

Having said that, it’s not our obsession with property ownership that’s the issue, it’s our expectation of continually rising prices and therefore the accumulation of “wealth”. Society seems geared toward perpetuating an environment where we all think we’re wealthier than we are. Mortgage debt in this country is at frightening levels but that’s ok as long as the market continues to grow. What is more sinister is credit card debt. That’s also at eye watering levels.
Basically the public have been fed (almost said force fed but it’s not quite everybody has a choice) debt for the last 30 odd years, mainly to disguise the fact that real wages for most (other than for the top 5-10%) have been slipping back.


The property market is a weird one. If you go back to 4 or 5% interest rates you were paying more interest but on less money borrowed. Now you pay less interest but on a bigger sum. Clearly the more you borrow the bigger the risk if the market crashes. I'm not sure it will crash but it's certainly very flat in the south east, most people I know who have tried to move have given up.
Not sure you can blame MP's for inflated prices, lots of people bought into the game of pushing up prices, punters, brokers, lenders. I'm a landlord, we've had the same tenant for 10 years. They are a family and we try to keep the rent low and they treat the flat as their home. Buy to let is on the way out, no real perks to it anymore, tax breaks have mainly gone.
Wealth is all about  perception, certainly thinking you are wealthy because you have a lot of equity is a dangerous game.


Yes. I can, and I will. They've allowed this nonsense to go on, unchecked, for decades. All persuasions. **** the lot of them. Property is referred to as a 'market' all the time. No, it chuffing well isn't; it's something people need to, you know, live in. It should never been allowed to become an investment, or an alternative retirement plan. As Dads' Army's Frasier said on many an occasion - we're doomed!
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Post by Diggers on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 10:31 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:The property bubble is overdue an enormous crash. Property value increases of higher than wage inflation have been going on for decades and it's completely unsustainable. Problem is, too many MPs are landlords, so they'll do chuff all about it.

How anyone can live (rental or own) within the M25 is beyond me. How does London attract teachers, nurses, cleaners etc etc, when it costs as much, if not more, to rent than to buy, and buying's a non-starter? More than time to get rid of so-called 'London-weighting' in pay etc as it's helping to sustain a stupid scenario.

Prices are out of control pretty much everywhere. My mum's house outside Bristol is a 4-bed (extended) semi built in 1912; "worth" nearly £500,000 now. Was in Norfolk (near Hunstanton) for kids' October half-term this year; 2-bed semi we saw while there and looked up on market was available at 'offers' over £380,000.

No-one is actually building 'affordable' housing and even when they do, the first owners sell it on for a stupid profit, taking it out of the 'affordable' market. Councils who sold off council housing after Thatcher's wonderful idea never replaced them. Banks are giving away 'buy-to-let' mortgages for landlords to charge a fortune. Chinese (although take your pick, it's not just them) are buying up (i.e. investing in) new build developments and whole swathes are often then empty. Parts of the country are empty of 'locals' all year round and dead between Monday-Thursday of every week because wealthy people from elsewhere in the country have bought up 'holiday homes', but most of the time they get Council Tax discounts as their little nest eggs are considered empty most of the time. Alternatively, they rent them out at a huge profit as holiday rentals. Children of any 'locals' left in whole tracts of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Norfolk etc etc have no hope whatsoever of buying anything where they've grown up.

This Country is FUBAR. No money for anything - the NHS, education (at all levels), the police, fire services, armed forces, road repairs, disability support, the homeless, Council budgets in general etc. You could go on and on. Politicians of all persuasions not being honest with the Electorate about the state of the Country. Etc etc etc etc.

Merry Christmas...

Not a bad summary Navy, you’re right regarding property, the current state really is unsustainable, infact it was that way before the 2008 crash and it’s got back to that. A correction (not sure it would be another full on crash) simply has to come.

Having said that, it’s not our obsession with property ownership that’s the issue, it’s our expectation of continually rising prices and therefore the accumulation of “wealth”. Society seems geared toward perpetuating an environment where we all think we’re wealthier than we are. Mortgage debt in this country is at frightening levels but that’s ok as long as the market continues to grow. What is more sinister is credit card debt. That’s also at eye watering levels.
Basically the public have been fed (almost said force fed but it’s not quite everybody has a choice) debt for the last 30 odd years, mainly to disguise the fact that real wages for most (other than for the top 5-10%) have been slipping back.


The property market is a weird one. If you go back to 4 or 5% interest rates you were paying more interest but on less money borrowed. Now you pay less interest but on a bigger sum. Clearly the more you borrow the bigger the risk if the market crashes. I'm not sure it will crash but it's certainly very flat in the south east, most people I know who have tried to move have given up.
Not sure you can blame MP's for inflated prices, lots of people bought into the game of pushing up prices, punters, brokers, lenders. I'm a landlord, we've had the same tenant for 10 years. They are a family and we try to keep the rent low and they treat the flat as their home. Buy to let is on the way out, no real perks to it anymore, tax breaks have mainly gone.
Wealth is all about  perception, certainly thinking you are wealthy because you have a lot of equity is a dangerous game.


Yes. I can, and I will. They've allowed this nonsense to go on, unchecked, for decades. All persuasions. **** the lot of them. Property is referred to as a 'market' all the time. No, it chuffing well isn't; it's something people need to, you know, live in. It should never been allowed to become an investment, or an alternative retirement plan. As Dads' Army's Frasier said on many an occasion - we're doomed!

I'd be far more minded to blame lenders than MP's myself. The amount of rule bending that has gone on is staggering.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 10:47 am

Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:The property bubble is overdue an enormous crash. Property value increases of higher than wage inflation have been going on for decades and it's completely unsustainable. Problem is, too many MPs are landlords, so they'll do chuff all about it.

How anyone can live (rental or own) within the M25 is beyond me. How does London attract teachers, nurses, cleaners etc etc, when it costs as much, if not more, to rent than to buy, and buying's a non-starter? More than time to get rid of so-called 'London-weighting' in pay etc as it's helping to sustain a stupid scenario.

Prices are out of control pretty much everywhere. My mum's house outside Bristol is a 4-bed (extended) semi built in 1912; "worth" nearly £500,000 now. Was in Norfolk (near Hunstanton) for kids' October half-term this year; 2-bed semi we saw while there and looked up on market was available at 'offers' over £380,000.

No-one is actually building 'affordable' housing and even when they do, the first owners sell it on for a stupid profit, taking it out of the 'affordable' market. Councils who sold off council housing after Thatcher's wonderful idea never replaced them. Banks are giving away 'buy-to-let' mortgages for landlords to charge a fortune. Chinese (although take your pick, it's not just them) are buying up (i.e. investing in) new build developments and whole swathes are often then empty. Parts of the country are empty of 'locals' all year round and dead between Monday-Thursday of every week because wealthy people from elsewhere in the country have bought up 'holiday homes', but most of the time they get Council Tax discounts as their little nest eggs are considered empty most of the time. Alternatively, they rent them out at a huge profit as holiday rentals. Children of any 'locals' left in whole tracts of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Norfolk etc etc have no hope whatsoever of buying anything where they've grown up.

This Country is FUBAR. No money for anything - the NHS, education (at all levels), the police, fire services, armed forces, road repairs, disability support, the homeless, Council budgets in general etc. You could go on and on. Politicians of all persuasions not being honest with the Electorate about the state of the Country. Etc etc etc etc.

Merry Christmas...

Not a bad summary Navy, you’re right regarding property, the current state really is unsustainable, infact it was that way before the 2008 crash and it’s got back to that. A correction (not sure it would be another full on crash) simply has to come.

Having said that, it’s not our obsession with property ownership that’s the issue, it’s our expectation of continually rising prices and therefore the accumulation of “wealth”. Society seems geared toward perpetuating an environment where we all think we’re wealthier than we are. Mortgage debt in this country is at frightening levels but that’s ok as long as the market continues to grow. What is more sinister is credit card debt. That’s also at eye watering levels.
Basically the public have been fed (almost said force fed but it’s not quite everybody has a choice) debt for the last 30 odd years, mainly to disguise the fact that real wages for most (other than for the top 5-10%) have been slipping back.


The property market is a weird one. If you go back to 4 or 5% interest rates you were paying more interest but on less money borrowed. Now you pay less interest but on a bigger sum. Clearly the more you borrow the bigger the risk if the market crashes. I'm not sure it will crash but it's certainly very flat in the south east, most people I know who have tried to move have given up.
Not sure you can blame MP's for inflated prices, lots of people bought into the game of pushing up prices, punters, brokers, lenders. I'm a landlord, we've had the same tenant for 10 years. They are a family and we try to keep the rent low and they treat the flat as their home. Buy to let is on the way out, no real perks to it anymore, tax breaks have mainly gone.
Wealth is all about  perception, certainly thinking you are wealthy because you have a lot of equity is a dangerous game.


Yes. I can, and I will. They've allowed this nonsense to go on, unchecked, for decades. All persuasions. **** the lot of them. Property is referred to as a 'market' all the time. No, it chuffing well isn't; it's something people need to, you know, live in. It should never been allowed to become an investment, or an alternative retirement plan. As Dads' Army's Frasier said on many an occasion - we're doomed!

I'd be far more minded to blame lenders than MP's myself. The amount of rule bending that has gone on is staggering.
Oh, I wouldn't let them get away scot-free, but it's MPs (and Governments) who facilitate the environment where lenders can do that.
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Post by McLaren on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 1:19 pm

Super

You are all over the place again.  

The "housing affordability ratio" the ratio between house prices and annual earnings has significantly worsened in even the last 20 years.  On average the cost of a house was 3.6 times a workers salary in 1997 and this has risen to 7.6 times a workers salary by 2017. Even from 1997 it is twice as expensive to buy a house relative to salary, so imagine the difference between now and 35-40 years ago.  

The ONS produce a pretty comprehensive report on this:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2017#things-you-need-to-know-about-this-release
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Post by super_realist on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 7:03 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

You are all over the place again.  

The "housing affordability ratio" the ratio between house prices and annual earnings has significantly worsened in even the last 20 years.  On average the cost of a house was 3.6 times a workers salary in 1997 and this has risen to 7.6 times a workers salary by 2017. Even from 1997 it is twice as expensive to buy a house relative to salary, so imagine the difference between now and 35-40 years ago.  

The ONS produce a pretty comprehensive report on this:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2017#things-you-need-to-know-about-this-release

Very much depends where you look Mac. Besides, whoever said that owning a property was a human right or something you had to do it? I certainly wouldn't expect to be able to afford one straight out of university or with just a couple of years experience like many of the youth of today do. Let's not forget also that home ownership was easier due to 0% deposits back in the day too and people being lent far more than they could afford. Not surprising you overlooked that.


I knew people in the 1990's who were professional people in London, but still living as if they were students in shared accommodation. You can't say things were easy back then either.

You seem to think that house ownership was high 35-40 years ago, it was much lower than it is today, tons of people lived in rented and social housing. Yes, you could say that the average house price was 3.6 x the annual salary, but interest rates were bloody colossal for much of that period, so what you think was affordable, actually wasn't and a small % increase in the base rate could see you lose your house, especially when interest rates were 15%. Add to that that things like food bills are significantly less now than they were 35-40 years ago as a % of your salary and you probably aren't talking much different at all.

Many things like white goods and tv's etc are considerable cheaper than in the "olden days". People used to rent TV's and even telephones in those days Mac.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 7:39 am

Buy to let is not all its looks like on Homes under the hammer.Most lenders require the rental income to be 1 1/2 times your repayment which is very difficult to achieve,I think most who have invested have done so because of super low interest rates for a long period ie,to hope for a better return.And there are some bloody dreadful tenants out there.Fair comments re higher interest rates in the past.Dead right about the price of consumer goods .I remember my old man going out and buying a colour tv just before the 1966 world cup final -£400 mother didn't speak to him for a month . Nice to see getting into gear for the no dealish brexit .

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Post by super_realist on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 8:17 am

dynamark wrote:Buy to let is not all its looks like on Homes under the hammer.Most lenders require the rental income to be 1 1/2 times your repayment which is very difficult to achieve,I think most who have invested have done so because of super low interest rates for a long period ie,to hope for a better return.And there are some bloody dreadful tenants out there.Fair comments re higher interest rates in the past.Dead right about the price of consumer goods .I remember my old man going out and buying a colour tv just before the 1966 world cup final -£400 mother didn't speak to him for a month . Nice to see getting into gear for the no dealish brexit .

£400 quid in 66? Wow, you could buy a car for that price back then.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 8:40 am

Funny how views on interest rates have changed. High rates of course cause problems, but so do low ones, the current ones are , lets not forget, just an emergency measure to manage a struggling economy. Low rates hit savers, low rates have also been a massive part of driving up property prices. Funny that back in the day people had quite high interest savings accounts, my mum and dad had loads (and insurance policies that would produce a return) they'd pay a few quid into each week.
I remember Radio Rentals, always quite exciting when you upgraded your telebox. Big present as a kid was a portable TV, probably black and white!

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Post by dynamark on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 5:34 pm

Rediffusion Digs.On every high street.Interest rates you will still pay 4-5 % on say a property loan and more on overdraft and cards but returns for savers are very low hence the run into bricks and mortar.
Super correct I think our Morris Traveller also cost £400.It was a big TV though.Phone box on the corner if you wanted to call a girlfriend.Coal fire ,hot water bottle ,off sales at the pub, darned socks .corporal punishment, life was so much better back then.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 7:35 pm

"Stupid people" Yeah Jeremy, we all believe you. Why lie about it?

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Post by dynamark on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 8:49 pm

I'm sure there are many lip readers finally finding they have something to do !
Either way he is a strange guy to be a party leader.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 9:43 pm

super_realist wrote:"Stupid people" Yeah Jeremy, we all believe you. Why lie about it?
Yeah. The BSL experts I know all think he said 'stupid woman'. I think I know whom I believe.

That said, who gives a ****? They're arguing over a mild insult and the Country's about to die on its arse? FFS....
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Post by Diggers on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 10:27 pm

I’d never check but I’ll buy she’s a woman. Stupid is an understatement. I’d have gone for retarded myself.

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Post by beninho on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 6:41 am

4.2bn being spunked on brexit, homelessness on the rise due to government policies, troops being prepared to step in because brexit is a clusterfck, planning for a no deal yet people have issues with Corbyn maybe calling s stupid woman a stupid woman.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 7:44 am

beninho wrote:4.2bn being spunked on brexit, homelessness on the rise due to government policies, troops being prepared to step in because brexit is a clusterfck, planning for a no deal yet people have issues with Corbyn maybe calling s stupid woman a stupid woman.

Pipe down Ben, you know the furore would have been just as bad had it been May. I'm tired of people saying Corbyn is persecuted or that the media treatment is unfair. Every politician gets absolute pelters from the press, and rightly so, especially if you deserve it like May, Cameron, Corbyn, Abbott etc

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Post by beninho on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 8:01 am

So goodbye Jose. Is that the end for him at the highest level? A once great who has been passed in management by younger managers and new styles. I remember when he first went to Chelsea, where he was quite entertaining, he gradually became a massive cok though. Probably rock up at a Milan club.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 9:21 am

beninho wrote:So goodbye Jose. Is that the end for him at the highest level? A once great who has been passed in management by younger managers and new styles. I remember when he first went to Chelsea, where he was quite entertaining, he gradually became a massive cok though. Probably rock up at a Milan club.
Nah. Anyone thinks he's past it doesn't really know what they're talking about. However, I think his chewing-a-wasp-face in every interview got very boring over the last few years and his repeated slagging off of players in public is never going to work with the modern prima donna players either. I also don't understand why he didn't follow the Ferguson playbook and simply offload/sack any trouble-maker players such as Pogba.

Still, worst thing about this is we might all have to stop laughing at ManU. Pity.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 9:37 am

Navy

You will no doubt find this ludicrous but his treatment of Shaw should have been considered workplace bullying.

And put me in the "doesn't really know what they are talking about" camp because I am pretty sure Jose will never repeat his success of old.



On Corbyn

It wouldn't be a surprise if he did use a dismissive remark about a women, I have never been sure about his dedication to more modern social justice movements. He is more of an old school man of the working man than a 21st century "SJW".
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:15 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

You will no doubt find this ludicrous but his treatment of Shaw should have been considered workplace bullying.

And put me in the "doesn't really know what they are talking about" camp because I am pretty sure Jose will never repeat his success of old....
Shaw is an interesting one, and you may have a point in this snowflake era. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but I can see how it might be a case of that.

Jose not repeating past successes isn't quite the same as being past it and superseded by so-say Messiahs such as Guardiola and Klopp, which is what's being suggested. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather watch the current ManC and Liverpool over a Mourinho team, but to suggest he's a busted flush on the basis of the mess that's the current ManU setup is taking it a little far I think. I do think he needs to take some time off now and re-discover the cheekier version of his past self.
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Post by Diggers on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:37 am

He is a busted flush for me, not because of age but because of his ego, he can’t, or won’t, adapt to move on as the games evolved.
It’s not just Man Utd, it went wrong at Chelsea and Madrid as well, he just can’t help himself.
Not sure which big club would want him now, seems we know how each story ends, with a massive payment to his bank balance.

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Post by Diggers on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:40 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

You will no doubt find this ludicrous but his treatment of Shaw should have been considered workplace bullying.

And put me in the "doesn't really know what they are talking about" camp because I am pretty sure Jose will never repeat his success of old.



On Corbyn

It wouldn't be a surprise if he did use a dismissive remark about a women, I have never been sure about his dedication to more modern social justice movements. He is more of an old school man of the working man than a 21st century "SJW".

17 women in the shadow cabinet suggests otherwise to me.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 10:58 am

Navy

The Shaw situation and his inflated ego that digs mentions are linked in that they reflect his reluctance or inability to coach players. A klopp or a Pep seem willing to spend the effort in training a player to ensure they fit into a system whereas Jose just expects the players to do what he says. He also does weird things to prove whatever point he thinks he has, for example he has decided that Utd don't have a decent left back so he makes Martiel or Rashford (whoever is unfortunate enough to be picked) double up with the left back way more often than is the norm for attacking players. Is it unrealistic to think that under the tutelage of Pep/Klopp Rashford and Martiel might be playing at the same level as Sane and Sterling or Salah and Mane?
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Post by pedro on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 11:57 am

Jose was quite cool in his earlier years. Lately he has just turned into a parody of himself. All his antics, kicking of water bottles, runing around like a buffoon, sour faces etc etc.

Strange timing to fire him after the Liverpool game though. Maybe it was fan pressure or just the drop. Normally it's not a shame for a mid table team to lose against the number 1...

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Post by McLaren on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 12:44 pm

Is the fact OGS "knows" the club and will get on better with the players enough to haul this team into the top 4? I am not so sure, but I am quite excited by the fact he is here even if that does sound a little contradictory.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 1:34 pm

Diggers wrote:He is a busted flush for me, not because of age but because of his ego, he can’t, or won’t, adapt to move on as the games evolved.
It’s not just Man Utd, it went wrong at Chelsea and Madrid as well, he just can’t help himself.
Not sure which big club would want him now, seems we know how each story ends, with a massive payment to his bank balance.
Not sure the game's evolved that much and the famous Dutch never won much with their 'total football', which is pretty much Klopp/Guardiola now. You need the contrasting playing styles and no-one can claim that Mourinho hasn't been a success, even at ManU.

I agree about whether a big club wants him as he comes with this temperament that I don't think sits well; at least not the public persona. Mark Schwartzer(sp?) was pretty complementary about him the other day - tough, yes, but not vindictive etc.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 1:37 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

The Shaw situation and his inflated ego that digs mentions are linked in that they reflect his reluctance or inability to coach players. A klopp or a Pep seem willing to spend the effort in training a player to ensure they fit into a system whereas Jose just expects the players to do what he says. He also does weird things to prove whatever point he thinks he has, for example he has decided that Utd don't have a decent left back so he makes Martiel or Rashford (whoever is unfortunate enough to be picked) double up with the left back way more often than is the norm for attacking players. Is it unrealistic to think that under the tutelage of Pep/Klopp Rashford and Martiel might be playing at the same level as Sane and Sterling or Salah and Mane?
Fair points, but we only know the one side of the story don't we? If I was a manager, I'd expect players to do what I asked them too. Mourinho should just get rid of those he doesn't like/rate. It's not like Guardiola or Klopp are soft touches underneath - just ask Joe Hart, for example.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 1:42 pm

McLaren wrote:Is the fact OGS "knows" the club and will get on better with the players enough to haul this team into the top 4? I am not so sure, but I am quite excited by the fact he is here even if that does sound a little contradictory.
Maybe, but it seems there's deeper problems than Mourinho. Maybe ManU just thought their era would never end, so never really made any steps to modernise/improve cf. ManC, Liverpool, Spurs etc? Ferguson may well have masked a lack of progress elsewhere. Read the other day that both Rooney and, I think, Fletcher have both got their kids on the ManC books, certainly partly because of the non-football side of the deal incl. education. Says something that.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 1:53 pm

Navy

As you say pep can certainly be ruthless, as we saw with Hart and when he first took charge of Barca and rid them of their more established names.  But he has also shown a willingness to help players improve or change their game so that they can play within his systems.  Jose is more about having ready made players.

I am willing to accept that Pogba, Martiel, Rashford, Shaw, Fred, Sanchez and some of the others who are badly struggling refused to play to the Jose style, let alone let him coach them how to adapt to it but who would blame them? Why would they want to learn how to let the other team have the ball and wait for the scraps.
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Post by Diggers on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 2:20 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:He is a busted flush for me, not because of age but because of his ego, he can’t, or won’t, adapt to move on as the games evolved.
It’s not just Man Utd, it went wrong at Chelsea and Madrid as well, he just can’t help himself.
Not sure which big club would want him now, seems we know how each story ends, with a massive payment to his bank balance.
Not sure the game's evolved that much and the famous Dutch never won much with their 'total football', which is pretty much Klopp/Guardiola now. You need the contrasting playing styles and no-one can claim that Mourinho hasn't been a success, even at ManU.

I agree about whether a big club wants him as he comes with this temperament that I don't think sits well; at least not the public persona. Mark Schwartzer(sp?) was pretty complementary about him the other day - tough, yes, but not vindictive etc.

I wouldn’t say City and Liverpool played in a similar way, very different midfield ideas. Mourhino has never had much of a playing identity, other than a decent defence and let good played play. He’s never embraced the press, when is probably the big change in modern sides. He’s crap at developing young players, always has been.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 2:31 pm

Some thing we can all agree on.


Remember that time he went after his own club doctor for treating a player with a potential head injury.
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Post by raycastleunited on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 2:58 pm

I used to love Jose for the entertainment he brought. The quotes, the thinking, the ability to predict what opposition managers would do and stay one step ahead of them. Pure box office.

Sadly he has turned into a parody of himself.

I don't think he's been unsuccessful at Man U, in fact the stats suggest he's clearly been more successful than the rest of Fergie's successors. There is something wrong at Man U that is deeper, more structural, and Mourinho isn't (wasn't) the right person to fix it.

This isn't the end of Jose. He still has the ability to get results, his pragmatic approach isn't based on an old or new style, its based on what he has available and what he is faced with. When a big club need a short term fix he is a good bet. Could easily see him back in Italy or Spain... Real Madrid in fact.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 4:47 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

As you say pep can certainly be ruthless, as we saw with Hart and when he first took charge of Barca and rid them of their more established names.  But he has also shown a willingness to help players improve or change their game so that they can play within his systems.  Jose is more about having ready made players.

I am willing to accept that Pogba, Martiel, Rashford, Shaw, Fred, Sanchez and some of the others who are badly struggling refused to play to the Jose style, let alone let him coach them how to adapt to it but who would blame them? Why would they want to learn how to let the other team have the ball and wait for the scraps.
I would. I would also hope the ManU Board would as well, but they won't. The idea that you wouldn't do your best on the pitch is beyond me, whomever is the manager.
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Post by dynamark on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 4:55 pm

Ben theres plenty of help out there for the'homeless'.Weve taken folk out of bus shelters and put them in a flat and they cannot cope with locking doors and electric bills regardless of the support workers =clearing out a few weeks later.People dying homeless( including in shelters,temporary etc) figures today big number 600 not that many really for a year-drugs.liverfailure-suicide.We give help but we cannot help all of the people all of the time.Funny how these things hit the press at Xmas.

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Post by Diggers on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 5:42 pm

Think the players don’t play reason gets trotted out too often. I’ve seen plenty of Man Utd this season. I’ve seen players look lost and lacking confidence (due to a lack of a plan and bizarre selection) but I’ve only seen Pogba look like he was disinterested. To point the finger at Rashford beggars belief, he’s ran his socks off and has bailed them out (as a kid) plenty of times this year.

Dyna, In sorry but you are spouting utter rubbish, it’s like a Daily Mail headline. The homeless situation is spiralling, there are queues of people trying to get beds and going from hostel to hostel, kids in tow. They aren’t refusing help. The bedroom tax was farcical, the universal credit roll out has caused chaos for low income families, food banks queues are increasingly everywhere. Even your party is finally admitting it with a new policy to address the homeless problem, though it doesn’t do nearly enough and as usual has had to be pressured the act at all.
How you can call Corbyn a strange leader when you have May, an out and out right wing Tory, is strange to me.




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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 6:47 pm

Diggers wrote:Think the players don’t play reason gets trotted out too often. I’ve seen plenty of Man Utd this season. I’ve seen players look lost and lacking confidence (due to a lack of a plan and bizarre selection) but I’ve only seen Pogba look like he was disinterested. To point the finger at Rashford beggars belief, he’s ran his socks off and has bailed them out (as a kid) plenty of times this year.

Dyna, In sorry but you are spouting utter rubbish, it’s like a Daily Mail headline. The homeless situation is spiralling, there are queues of people trying to get beds and going from hostel to hostel, kids in tow. They aren’t refusing help. The bedroom tax was farcical, the universal credit roll out has caused chaos for low income families, food banks queues are increasingly everywhere. Even your party is finally admitting it with a new policy to address the homeless problem, though it doesn’t do nearly enough and as usual has had to be pressured the act at all.
How you can call Corbyn a strange leader when you have May, an out and out right wing Tory, is strange to me.



To suggest Mourihno had/had no plan seems pretty bizarre. Maybe the players are simply too thick to understand what he's asking them to do. Should be easy for them - do what's asked and if you do, and it goes wrong, it's only one person's fault. They can't even do whatever's asked. I wasn't pointing at Rashford - I think he's excellent and one of the few ManU bright spots.

Corbyn is a strange leader. So's May.
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Post by Diggers on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 7:07 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Think the players don’t play reason gets trotted out too often. I’ve seen plenty of Man Utd this season. I’ve seen players look lost and lacking confidence (due to a lack of a plan and bizarre selection) but I’ve only seen Pogba look like he was disinterested. To point the finger at Rashford beggars belief, he’s ran his socks off and has bailed them out (as a kid) plenty of times this year.

Dyna, In sorry but you are spouting utter rubbish, it’s like a Daily Mail headline. The homeless situation is spiralling, there are queues of people trying to get beds and going from hostel to hostel, kids in tow. They aren’t refusing help. The bedroom tax was farcical, the universal credit roll out has caused chaos for low income families, food banks queues are increasingly everywhere. Even your party is finally admitting it with a new policy to address the homeless problem, though it doesn’t do nearly enough and as usual has had to be pressured the act at all.
How you can call Corbyn a strange leader when you have May, an out and out right wing Tory, is strange to me.



To suggest Mourihno had/had no plan seems pretty bizarre. Maybe the players are simply too thick to understand what he's asking them to do. Should be easy for them - do what's asked and if you do, and it goes wrong, it's only one person's fault. They can't even do whatever's asked. I wasn't pointing at Rashford - I think he's excellent and one of the few ManU bright spots.

Corbyn is a strange leader. So's May.

Or maybe his plans have just been utterly crap? You seem to be suggesting that simply having a plan makes a plan followable and good. I think May is proving that isn’t the case. Like Mac said earlier, the way he sets up means the forwards have too much work to do (which they’ve been doing), they can’t then be as explosive going forward...so they look crap. Because they followed his plan, which does not work against any half decent side.Fair enough with Pogba, but he doesn’t play Mata, they desperately needed someone like him against Liverpool. Other managers know exactly what is coming, no surprises, and they set up accordingly and we’ve seen what happens.
This season has been an utter farce for Man Utd, he’s had plenty of time to have a squad that is at least competitive with Arsenal and Chelsea but he is miles behind. Only surprise is it’s taken so long to offload him.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 7:14 pm

dynamark wrote:Ben theres plenty of help out there for the'homeless'.Weve taken folk out of bus shelters and put them in a flat and they cannot cope with locking doors and electric bills regardless of the support workers =clearing out a few weeks later.People dying homeless( including in shelters,temporary etc) figures today big number 600 not that many really for a year-drugs.liverfailure-suicide.We give help but we cannot help all of the people all of the time.Funny how these things hit the press at Xmas.


What is wrong with you?  The golf club type is strong in this one.
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Post by super_realist on Thu 20 Dec 2018, 7:24 pm

What's the bet this drone nonsense is the doing of some hypocrite environmentalist group.

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